Scottish Parliamentary Elections....

[steakbake]

Here we go then... 5th May. SNP v Labour: Salmond v Gray. Will the LibDems be wiped out? Will the Tories gain seats? Will the Greens get a few more seats?

Thoughts?

PS - if you've not registered to vote, you can do so up to the 15th April. http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/

[MountcastleHibs]

I don't think the Lib Dems will be wiped out, but I reckon they are going to lose a fair proportion of their 16 seats. I think the Greens might gain a couple of MSPs because of this. As for the Tories, I think they'll end up with similar numbers.

As for the big battle, it will be a disaster if Iain Gray becomes First Minister. And I think the people realise this, with him being behind even Annabel Goldie in the most recent poll on who people would like to see as First Minister, polling on seven per cent.

All the indications from the polls are that the momentum is with the SNP, closing a 16 point gap, to 1 in just four weeks, and apparently have taken the lead in the last week. Obviously polls aren't a great indicator, the only real poll that is a good indicator is the exits polls, but I really hope that it proves to be the case.

[steakbake]

Yes, I think the momentum seems to be with the SNP.

If Labour lose this, I think they'd be within their rights to be extremely disappointed and look to Iain Gray for the reason why. He's been pitiful. Problem is (if that's the word to use), I can't see who else they have that might do a better job.

LibDems, I reckon, will be well down. Tories could pick up a couple of seats. Would be good to see a few more Greens in Parliament to be honest.

[MountcastleHibs]

Yes, I think the momentum seems to be with the SNP.

If Labour lose this, I think they'd be within their rights to be extremely disappointed and look to Iain Gray for the reason why. He's been pitiful. Problem is (if that's the word to use), I can't see who else they have that might do a better job.

LibDems, I reckon, will be well down. Tories could pick up a couple of seats. Would be good to see a few more Greens in Parliament to be honest.

That's the problem for Labour up here and down at Westminster. There are no leaders and those that see themselves as leaders are very amateurish and not attractive to the vast majority of the electorate at all.

Nothing wrong with more Green MSPs for me. Lib Dems are going to be virtually finished, and they deserve everything they get. Tavish Scott seems to be living in this delusion bubble and doesn't want to accept his, and his parties fate.

[AgentDaleCooper]

i'd normally give greens my second vote, but i may well vote SNP twice just out of curiosity - it would be very interesting if they actually won a majority (and by the sound of things, that's not as unlikely as one might have thought - just about everyone i know is voting for them, which includes a lot of people who wouldn't normally touch them with a bargepoll. interesting times...

[Calvin]

The people know that Iain Gray would be a shocking first minister. I hope the people can see that while not perfect, the SNP do the best job in government of the options available to us. Letting Labour back in now would be a massive step backwards.

Just from casually speaking/canvassing to people, a lot of the response has been that SNP are the best vote but they would still vote no in a referendum on independence. I would settle for that result in the short term.

The unfortunate aspect of the additional member system is that, despite being an East Lothian resident, I'm pretty much powerless to vote out Iain Gray. Even if Dave Berry gets in as the constituency MSP, Gray will still get in as Labour's number 1 on the list vote.

[bighairyfaeleith]

yep snp for me as well, although I would have been tempted by labour if they had a good leader but Iain gray is not the man for first minister.

I'll probably give the greens my second vote.

It will be interesting to see what happens if the snp get a majority and how they then handle the london government. Thats when we will see if salmond is genuine or just full of soundbites!!

[GlesgaeHibby]

SNP for me. 84/94 manifesto commitments delivered is pretty good going. They've had their faults as a government but overall I think they've done a pretty good job.

The thought of Iain Gray as First Minister and Andy Kerr, Jackie Baillie and co as frontbench ministers scares me ****less. They've offered nothing for 4 years, with Iain Gray being ripped to shreds week in week out for coming to attack Salmond on an issue and getting his figures wrong/not looking at broad picture.

[marinello59]

SNP for me. 84/94 manifesto commitments delivered is pretty good going. They've had their faults as a government but overall I think they've done a pretty good job.

The thought of Iain Gray as First Minister and Andy Kerr, Jackie Baillie and co as frontbench ministers scares me ****less. They've offered nothing for 4 years, with Iain Gray being ripped to shreds week in week out for coming to attack Salmond on an issue and getting his figures wrong/not looking at broad picture.

So they say. :wink:

[Beefster]

Despite it being against everything I believe in, I'll be voting for Dave Berry, the SNP candidate in East Lothian. I'd love to see Iain Gray not even be returned to Holyrood and I can't face however many years of that bland non-entity being our First Minister.

If Scotland votes for Gray, the saying about putting a red rosette on a monkey has been proven right.

As for the Scottish Tories, they won't go anywhere until they can get rid of Goldie and Fraser. Absolutely useless.

[marinello59]

SNP for me. 84/94 manifesto commitments delivered is pretty good going. They've had their faults as a government but overall I think they've done a pretty good job.

The thought of Iain Gray as First Minister and Andy Kerr, Jackie Baillie and co as frontbench ministers scares me ****less. They've offered nothing for 4 years, with Iain Gray being ripped to shreds week in week out for coming to attack Salmond on an issue and getting his figures wrong/not looking at broad picture.

So they say. :wink:

[bighairyfaeleith]

So they say. :wink:

you got a stutter?:wink:

[Golden Bear]

I'm not sure who I'll vote for this time around as I don't agree 100% with any of the major Parties policies

However if it came down to a Leadership contest then jambo Salmond would win hands down.

Ian Gray just has not got it and although I 've been impressed with Annabel Goldie, I'm not sure if I could ever vote Tory.

[marinello59]

you got a stutter?:wink:

Seemingly. :greengrin

[AgentDaleCooper]

SNP for me. 84/94 manifesto commitments delivered is pretty good going. They've had their faults as a government but overall I think they've done a pretty good job.

The thought of Iain Gray as First Minister and Andy Kerr, Jackie Baillie and co as frontbench ministers scares me ****less. They've offered nothing for 4 years, with Iain Gray being ripped to shreds week in week out for coming to attack Salmond on an issue and getting his figures wrong/not looking at broad picture.

perhaps this is more of a reflection on me, but i have never heard of either of them.

[marinello59]

I'm not sure who I'll vote for this time around as I don't agree 100% with any of the major Parties policies

However if it came down to a Leadership contest then jambo Salmond would win hands down.

Ian Gray just has not got it and although I 've been impressed with Annabel Goldie, I'm not sure if I could ever vote Tory.

I am in the same boat. I'll probably just ignore the colour of rosette and vote for the best local candidates. Party politics just turns me off these days.

[Hainan Hibs]

Unfortunately won't be in the country to vote but the SNP has my backing again.

Very solid 4 years in government, a good term in terms of legislation passed, and they have the best team for Scotland.

Labour offer no opposition. No ideas (apart from the ones they nicked off the SNP), no positiveness, no hope, just the usual doom and gloom.

Although the lastest poll is a good sign, the SNP still have an uphill battle. Almost all the media outlets are pro Labour, along with the very dodgy postal voting, plus the fact that a significant number of Labour voters vote for them through no reasoning whatsoever, meaning the battle is still very much on.

Hopefully between now and the 5th of May more and more Scots turn to the SNP and away from 3rd rate Labour.

[Hainan Hibs]

A point on the media however. I have not read The Sun in donkeys however I've read on a few places that The Sun may be about to come out in support of the SNP.

It may be logical, with them giving it tight to Labour in 2009, and the fact that they can't back the Tories in Scotland, plus the fact that they could be onto a money spinner (apart from Newsnet Scotland nowhere else is pro SNP as far as I'm aware).

Obviously it is a rag of a paper and this could all be rubbish, but after their attack on the SNP in 2007 it would be more than welcome for that crap not to be against the SNP this time around.

[Pretty Boy]

As a memeber of the Labour Party, in this election i'll be voting for......the SNP.

Labour in Scotland are a joke and those at the top have absolutely zero interest in what they are being told by grassroot activists and members on the street.

Ian Gray is a total non entity, he has zero charisma. I accept it shouldn't be style over substance but their isn't much of the latter with Gray either. Salmond is a pompous, arrogant jambo but when he talks you listen even if you don't agree with what he says.

The SNP have done ok in Scotland, a million miles from perfect but i think they have earned and deserve another term in office.

I'd still definitely vote no in any referendum on independence though.

[SHODAN]

As a memeber of the Labour Party, in this election i'll be voting for......the SNP.

Labour in Scotland are a joke and those at the top have absolutely zero interest in what they are being told by grassroot activists and members on the street.

Ian Gray is a total non entity, he has zero charisma. I accept it shouldn't be style over substance but their isn't much of the latter with Gray either. Salmond is a pompous, arrogant jambo but when he talks you listen even if you don't agree with what he says.

The SNP have done ok in Scotland, a million miles from perfect but i think they have earned and deserve another term in office.

I'd still definitely vote no in any referendum on independence though.

Sadly I agree with you. Don't know about the last part but, may well vote independence as I am becoming seriously disillusioned with Westminster.

[DaveF]

I'll be voting SNP and I dearly hope they win with a resounding majority.

[heretoday]

It's one of these occasions when I'll take the safe line. Vote SNP although I don't back Independence. Weird eh?

[New Corrie]

The SNP will just continue emptying prisons and endangering the public's safety. They have taken "soft on crime" to new levels. They will also just continue blaming the English for everything, with the "darling of hibs.net", Nicola Sturgeon being particularly bad for that.

Scottish politics is pretty much like Scottish football............embarrassing

[MountcastleHibs]

The SNP will just continue emptying prisons and endangering the public's safety. They have taken "soft on crime" to new levels. They will also just continue blaming the English for everything, with the "darling of hibs.net", Nicola Sturgeon being particularly bad for that.

Scottish politics is pretty much like Scottish football............embarrassing

Well they're obviously doing something right with crime at its lowest rate since the Scottish Parliament was formed.

[RyeSloan]

I agree with the sentiment on this thread...esp. around Iain Gray, he's a total fud.

I can't actually see the SNP manifesto for Holyrood 2011 on their website...does anyone have a link? There is plenty big links to donate to the party though!!

While the SNP have done a reasonable job in some areas I fundamentally disagree with their populist approach and think some of their moves around infrastructure spending, lack of clear ideas on how to invest in school re-building and their general love of avoiding the real issues with what we should be doing with the substantial government etc are v.poor and should be exposed for what they are. I’m also concerned that a large SNP vote for the parliament will be taken as a mandate for Independence which, looking at the comments on this thread, it will no be.

Sadly Labour in opposition in Scotland are just like their London counterparts, full of waffle and hot air and offer very very little in terms of hard, practical alternatives...thus I see nothing in the way of a clear win for the SNP, which on balance they would probably deserve, if for no more a reason in that they have a proper politician as the head of their party (for all I loathe most of what he says Salmond can certain debate!) and make a good fist of promoting and defending their policies (be they right or wrong).

Doesn't matter what the Lib Dems put forward they are going to be hammered for their participation in the Coalition down south. While I don't agree with a lot of the kicking they have had and think that in some ways they are being used as the fall guys popular opinion is dead against them so they can forget these elections...might be different as after the political cycle continues round but at this moment in time they are going to struggle.

Finally while Goldie is hardly a heavy weight and voting Tory is hardly a favourite past time in Scotland I actually happen to think that they are probably the most pragmatic of the Scottish Parly parties and having a wee read of their manifesto confirms this to me...as the ONLY right of centre option they might do relatively well.

[marinello59]

It's one of these occasions when I'll take the safe line. Vote SNP although I don't back Independence. Weird eh?

Strange thing is I favour independence but really don't care for the SNP much. I wouldn't worry about voting SNP whilst you don't support Independence though. They won't be mentioning it that much during this campaign. :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

Dave Berry, the SNP candidate in East Lothian. I'd love to see Iain Gray not even be returned to Holyrood and I can't face however many years of that bland non-entity being our First Minister.

If Scotland votes for Gray, the saying about putting a red rosette on a monkey has been proven right.

I agree with you about Gray but Dave Berry is a thoroughly unpleasant individual. East Lothian
Has a hard choice to make between two complete trumpets. Or alternatively you have a lovely old dear called Ettie who likes wind farms for the Lib Dems.

[Future17]

Unfortunately won't be in the country to vote but the SNP has my backing again.

Details on proxy and postal voting at http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/

Regardless of who you're thinking of voting for - don't waste it!



I can't actually see the SNP manifesto for Holyrood 2011 on their website...does anyone have a link?

I don't think it's been launched yet.

[Beefster]

I agree with you about Gray but Dave Berry is a thoroughly unpleasant individual. East Lothian
Has a hard choice to make between two complete trumpets. Or alternatively you have a lovely old dear called Ettie who likes wind farms for the Lib Dems.

Yeah, I've heard that about Berry. Having said that, East Lothian Council did well IMO under him (although I know he had to stand down because of his 'personality'). I had a fairly robust debate with Berry a few months back at my doorstep and although I'll never agree with independence or much of the SNP policies, I was impressed with him. It's really the lesser of two evils.

I got a leaflet from Ettie the other day. She looks lovely but I hate wind farms (and Lib Dems for that matter).

[Calvin]

I was a bit disappointed that Dave Berry got the nod. While I don't know Dave personally so can't comment on his personality, I voted for Alyn Smith to be our candidate. What a chance to be able to say to the electorate that we're putting up a candidate who is still reasonably young yet has successful experience in the European parliament as an MEP. Unfortunately though, the person from the constituency is going to have the advantage as all their allies in the party can vote them in as the candidate.

[Betty Boop]

Yuk ! What an uninspiring choice of candidates, boring, boring, boring ! :greengrin

[New Corrie]

I agree with you about Gray but Dave Berry is a thoroughly unpleasant individual. East Lothian
Has a hard choice to make between two complete trumpets. Or alternatively you have a lovely old dear called Ettie who likes wind farms for the Lib Dems.


He'll be at home in the SNP then.

[heretoday]

Strange thing is I favour independence but really don't care for the SNP much. I wouldn't worry about voting SNP whilst you don't support Independence though. They won't be mentioning it that much during this campaign. :greengrin


The SNP have become a sort of Social Democrat party irrespective of the Independence thing. Is it still a serious goal of the SNP?

Some would say it is their raison d'etre and that once independence is achieved they can cheerfully disband and split into various different groups.

My fear is that in an independent scotland other "groups" would emerge out of the darkness, particularly sectarian factions from the west.

[steakbake]

The SNP have become a sort of Social Democrat party irrespective of the Independence thing. Is it still a serious goal of the SNP?


It is their historical reason for being and given they are the only party who proposes independence as a stated objective, I would imagine it is still their aim.

I don't think the "what happens after independence" question is unique to the SNP. All the parties would have a decision to take on what position to adopt in a post-independence Scotland being in various ways just now, all defined by their view on the constitutional question.

Would Labour (for example) continue to be a unionist party and campaign for the reinstatement of the union? Or would they accept the decision and focus more on where to place themselves in the new political landscape?

The referendum is the bigger issue in all of this. The SNP benefit at the moment from support from people who are opposed to independence because the safety catch is knowing they could always vote no in a referendum. Equally, there are people who would vote for independence but would not vote SNP.

If a referendum was ever called, that would perhaps be where things start to become at least a bit more clear. I think that the traditional political boundaries would not really apply if politicians were given an open choice on which way to go.

[ancienthibby]

What are folks making of the bombshell unleashed by John Farquhar Munro of the LibDems to the effect that he wants the Eckmeister to be FM again??

Real opportunity for tactical voting on the Regional List, I think!!

[ancient hibee]

Can there still possibly be 4 weeks to go.How long O Lord,how long.

[hibsdaft]

SNP in my constituency. Undecided for my regional.

Hope the Lib Dems get wiped out.

[hibsbollah]

Can there still possibly be 4 weeks to go.How long O Lord,how long.

I love elections. The longer the campaign the better for me. All that grubby self interest, rampant ego, psychological warfare and personal attacks. Great fun.

[steakbake]

Can there still possibly be 4 weeks to go.How long O Lord,how long.

4 weeks? :dunno: :wink:

[Future17]

I love elections. The longer the campaign the better for me. All that grubby self interest, rampant ego, psychological warfare and personal attacks. Great fun.

And when the elections are over, you'll still have :hnet:

:greengrin

[steakbake]

Isn't George Galloway standing? He's been quiet if so. Thats not like him.

[Golden Bear]

Isn't George Galloway standing? He's been quiet if so. Thats not like him.

He was last seen burrowing into an Anderson shelter with his big pal Colonel Gaddafi.


Fact.

:wink:

[Betty Boop]

He was last seen burrowing into an Anderson shelter with his big pal Colonel Gaddafi.


Fact.

:wink:

Are you not getting mixed up with Tony Blair ? GG has never met Gaddafi or his family. FACT ! :greengrin

http://www.votegeorgegalloway.com/2011/02/gaddafi-is-no-friend-of-mine.html

[hibsbollah]

And when the elections are over, you'll still have :hnet:

:greengrin

Very good:greengrin

[lucky]

Labour for me in the constituency and regional. Also voting in favour of AV.

No party is getting a majority.

Labour 56 seats
SNP 48
Tories 14
Lib/dems 8
Greens 1
Independents 2

[steakbake]

Labour for me in the constituency and regional. Also voting in favour of AV.

No party is getting a majority.

Labour 56 seats
SNP 48
Tories 14
Lib/dems 8
Greens 1
Independents 2

I haven't given that the first thought. Going to have to read up on it and make a decision.

[Saorsa]

SNP constituency and SNP regional.

If I wisnae already voting SNP I certainly would be in this election anyway, Iain Gray as First Minister disnae bear thinking about

[Jones28]

MON THE FAT JAMBO

First ever vote and it will be going to SNP

If the Tories get any more seats I would be very surprised, same goes for the Lib Dems

[MountcastleHibs]

Labour for me in the constituency and regional. Also voting in favour of AV.

No party is getting a majority.

Labour 56 seats
SNP 48
Tories 14
Lib/dems 8
Greens 1
Independents 2

That's what last week's STV poll showed when Labour were leading the polls. It seems the SNP have since taken the lead.

And no wonder after that manifesto announcement. As Brian Taylor put it, there must be alarm bells ringing amongst the Labour party at grassroots. Same old sensationalist promises (which will be broken a year down the line after they've realised yet again that they can't source the money for their plans (and I know Iain Gray said they were fully costed, but I wouldn't trust him if he told me I was living in Scotland)), with the same old Labour tactic of throwing money at problems.

If this man becomes First Minister, what a total and utter disaster, and will prove the theory that in some places in Scotland you could throw a monkey up with a red ribbon on and it would get votes. In fact, I think a monkey would do a better job than Gray.

[bighairyfaeleith]

That's what last week's STV poll showed when Labour were leading the polls. It seems the SNP have since taken the lead.

And no wonder after that manifesto announcement. As Brian Taylor put it, there must be alarm bells ringing amongst the Labour party at grassroots. Same old sensationalist promises (which will be broken a year down the line after they've realised yet again that they can't source the money for their plans (and I know Iain Gray said they were fully costed, but I wouldn't trust him if he told me I was living in Scotland)), with the same old Labour tactic of throwing money at problems.

If this man becomes First Minister, what a total and utter disaster, and will prove the theory that in some places in Scotland you could throw a monkey up with a red ribbon on and it would get votes. In fact, I think a monkey would do a better job than Gray.

I'd vote for a monkey, I draw the line at baboons though, are you listening Annabelle?:greengrin

[duncs]

SNP in my constituency. Undecided for my regional.

Hope the Lib Dems get wiped out. .

Can you explain the "*" bit please?

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but the Liberal Democrats are a federal party and the Scottish element has their own policies and manifesto. Their record is actually very good. However, I fear that in the election this year the children will be paying for the sins (perceived or genuine) of thei (federal) fathers.

[Calvin]

Can you explain the "*" bit please?

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but the Liberal Democrats are a federal party and the Scottish element has their own policies and manifesto. Their record is actually very good. However, I fear that in the election this year the children will be paying for the sins (perceived or genuine) of thei (federal) fathers.

Perhaps if the Scottish Lib Dems publicly disassociated themselves from their English colleagues they'd have more luck. I've actually been quite impressed with Tavish Scott and they might even get my no 2 vote on the list.

[lucky]

That's what last week's STV poll showed when Labour were leading the polls. It seems the SNP have since taken the lead.

And no wonder after that manifesto announcement. As Brian Taylor put it, there must be alarm bells ringing amongst the Labour party at grassroots. Same old sensationalist promises (which will be broken a year down the line after they've realised yet again that they can't source the money for their plans (and I know Iain Gray said they were fully costed, but I wouldn't trust him if he told me I was living in Scotland)), with the same old Labour tactic of throwing money at problems.

If this man becomes First Minister, what a total and utter disaster, and will prove the theory that in some places in Scotland you could throw a monkey up with a red ribbon on and it would get votes. In fact, I think a monkey would do a better job than Gray.

Labour have lead in 15 out of 16 polls since the turn of the year. Alec Salmond is popular but his polices dont do it for me. As for independence, Scotland would struggle. The banking crisis has shown that. Ireland, Greece and Portugal bailed out by the EU. Iceland by world bank. Scotland is stronger within the UK. Ian Gray is dull but I'm sick of politicians full of spin. Blair, Cameron and Wee Eck. The snp have done ok with the council tax freeze and getting rid of prescription charges but they have hardly set the heather on fire to get Scotland's economy growing. I would be willing to pay extra to invest in local public services and can afford prescription charges, so surely it should be about helping the poorest rather than giving help to those who dont need it. The so called LIT that wee Eck is championing is in fact not local! He wants to set the rate, get Westminster to collect it and then he get to decide how much local councils get!!!! Hows that local? We need action and not spin so Wee Eck does not do it for me.

[CropleyWasGod]

Can you explain the "*" bit please?

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but the Liberal Democrats are a federal party and the Scottish element has their own policies and manifesto. Their record is actually very good. However, I fear that in the election this year the children will be paying for the sins (perceived or genuine) of thei (federal) fathers.

... and the sins of the same Liberals who shafted their Scottish voters with a similar about-turn on tuition fees a few elections ago.

[Hainan Hibs]

http://news.stv.tv/election-2011/242107-iain-gray-cuts-station-visit-short-after-organised-protest/

Iain Gray ambushed by protesters and hides in a sandwich shop.

:faf: :faf:

Edit : And then attempts to get a taxi and fails twice before being hurled into the 3rd taxi his mafia comes across

:faf: :faf:

[ancienthibby]

http://news.stv.tv/election-2011/242107-iain-gray-cuts-station-visit-short-after-organised-protest/

Iain Gray ambushed by protesters and hides in a sandwich shop.

:faf: :faf:

Edit : And then attempts to get a taxi and fails twice before being hurled into the 3rd taxi his mafia comes across

:faf: :faf:

How many carcrashes can the weegreyman have in a single campaign??

Just when does he get yanked by his London bosses??

[Beefster]

Labour have lead in 15 out of 16 polls since the turn of the year. Alec Salmond is popular but his polices dont do it for me. As for independence, Scotland would struggle. The banking crisis has shown that. Ireland, Greece and Portugal bailed out by the EU. Iceland by world bank. Scotland is stronger within the UK. Ian Gray is dull but I'm sick of politicians full of spin. Blair, Cameron and Wee Eck. The snp have done ok with the council tax freeze and getting rid of prescription charges but they have hardly set the heather on fire to get Scotland's economy growing. I would be willing to pay extra to invest in local public services and can afford prescription charges, so surely it should be about helping the poorest rather than giving help to those who dont need it. The so called LIT that wee Eck is championing is in fact not local! He wants to set the rate, get Westminster to collect it and then he get to decide how much local councils get!!!! Hows that local? We need action and not spin so Wee Eck does not do it for me.

You might be able to explain the differences to me then? As far as I can see, there are not many differences in policy.

This is a genuine point/question btw.

[MountcastleHibs]

You might be able to explain the differences to me then? As far as I can see, there are not many differences in policy.

This is a genuine point/question btw.

I was gonna ask that too. Labour seem to be knicking SNP policy, and everyone else is not too far away.

[Hainan Hibs]

I was gonna ask that too. Labour seem to be knicking SNP policy

After voting against a significant number of them during parliament. You can almost smell their desperation.

[MountcastleHibs]

After voting against a significant number of them during parliament. You can almost smell their desperation.

Very true. The irony for me is the council tax one. Smacks of the usual Labour opportunism and desperation. Really does show they'll do anything to get in power. They'll u-turn on it anyway if they get into power. I guarantee it.

[hibsbollah]

http://news.stv.tv/election-2011/242107-iain-gray-cuts-station-visit-short-after-organised-protest/

Iain Gray ambushed by protesters and hides in a sandwich shop.

:faf: :faf:

Edit : And then attempts to get a taxi and fails twice before being hurled into the 3rd taxi his mafia comes across

:faf: :faf:

As much as I think Gray is a useless streak of pish without a single policy idea worth the name, he didnt come out of that exchange looking particularly bad. He was just ambushed by a bunch of loudmouthed weegies who had no interest in debate but just wanted to shout loudly and get oan the box.

[Sir David Gray]

It'll be UKIP for me in the regional vote.

No idea who I'll be voting for in the constituency vote as I only have Labour, SNP, Conservative and Liberal Democrat candidates at the moment. I don't really want to vote for any of those parties but if I had to then it would need to be Conservatives.

Sadly, the only choice we have is between the SNP and Labour. Very depressing indeed.

[bighairyfaeleith]

It'll be UKIP for me in the regional vote.

No idea who I'll be voting for in the constituency vote as I only have Labour, SNP, Conservative and Liberal Democrat candidates at the moment. I don't really want to vote for any of those parties but if I had to then it would need to be Conservatives.

Sadly, the only choice we have is between the SNP and Labour. Very depressing indeed.

didn't know UKIP where standing in scottish elections?

[lucky]

Wee Ecks polices falling apart already! Who wants an extra 5p in pound to pay for his Local Income Tax. Oh dear it does appear he is all spin but not keen on the trurth.



TOP SALMOND ADVISER WARNS TAX PLAN WILL COST FAMILIES HUNDREDS

- ‘CAT OUT BAG’ AS CHIEF ECONOMIC ADVISER SAYS LIT WILL NEED TO BE SET AT NEARLY 5P
- SALMOND'S ‘POINT OF PRINCIPLE’ ARGUMNET 'BLOWN OUT OF THE WATER'

The controversy over Alex Salmond’s taxpayer-funded cover-up campaign deepened today as it was revealed that Alex Salmond was told that his plans to introduce a local income tax would hammer families 50% more this year than he promised. (1)

The SNP have consistently claimed his local income tax would be set at 3p in the pound. However, figures uncovered by The Telegraph today suggest the rate would be nearer 5p – meaning families would pay hundreds of pounds more per year.

The analysis by the First Minister's Chief Economic Adviser, Dr Andrew Goudie, warned Mr Salmond that a local income tax set at 3p in the pound would leave a funding shortfall of between £740 million and £770 million to fund council services. To fill this gap a local income tax would need to be around 4.49p or 4.58p in the pound meaning families would pay hundreds of pounds more in tax every year. Scottish Labour have estimated this would be well over £500 per year.

In a separate revelation The Herald this morning reported that a similar case to the one Alex Salmond is attempting to hide behind in the Court of Session was thrown out in 2007 by Scotland's top judges. (2)

Last week Scottish Labour wrote to the UK’s top civil servant, Sir Gus O'Donnell to demand an urgent investigation into the First Minister's publicly funded cover-up campaign to keep details of the cost of the SNP’s local income tax policy out of the public domain.

Scottish Labour Leader, Iain Gray, said:

“This revelation is explosive and shows the SNP have engaged in a systematic programme of deception lasting many years.

“In the space of a week, their approach has gone from the absurd to the deceitful.

"They have consistently claimed that this policy would cost only 3p for families but these latest revelations show their extraordinary lengths to hide the truth.

“The cat is now out of the bag.

“This single piece of paper shows the SNP plan to be completely unworkable and completely unfair.

"There is now no excuse to continue wasting taxpayers' money on this cover up.

"Alex Salmond argument's to keep this document secret has been blown out the water.

“Families would be hundreds of pounds worse off a year under these secret SNP plans.

“There is now no excuse for the SNP to continue their disgraceful court action and must publish the full documents today

(1) See p.1 of today’s Telegraph or see: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/SNP/8435801/Alex-Salmonds-local-income-tax-plans-will-cost-families-fifty-per-cent-more.html

(2) Alex Salmond has argued that the taxpayer funded cover-up campaign is required to establish “a point of principle”. However, The Herald today revealed that in January 2007 three Court of Session judges rejected a similar case brought by ministers in the last government. (see p.6 of today’s Herald)

[Beefster]

Wee Ecks polices falling apart already! Who wants an extra 5p in pound to pay for his Local Income Tax. Oh dear it does appear he is all spin but not keen on the trurth.



TOP SALMOND ADVISER WARNS TAX PLAN WILL COST FAMILIES HUNDREDS

- ‘CAT OUT BAG’ AS CHIEF ECONOMIC ADVISER SAYS LIT WILL NEED TO BE SET AT NEARLY 5P
- SALMOND'S ‘POINT OF PRINCIPLE’ ARGUMNET 'BLOWN OUT OF THE WATER'

The controversy over Alex Salmond’s taxpayer-funded cover-up campaign deepened today as it was revealed that Alex Salmond was told that his plans to introduce a local income tax would hammer families 50% more this year than he promised. (1)

The SNP have consistently claimed his local income tax would be set at 3p in the pound. However, figures uncovered by The Telegraph today suggest the rate would be nearer 5p – meaning families would pay hundreds of pounds more per year.

The analysis by the First Minister's Chief Economic Adviser, Dr Andrew Goudie, warned Mr Salmond that a local income tax set at 3p in the pound would leave a funding shortfall of between £740 million and £770 million to fund council services. To fill this gap a local income tax would need to be around 4.49p or 4.58p in the pound meaning families would pay hundreds of pounds more in tax every year. Scottish Labour have estimated this would be well over £500 per year.

In a separate revelation The Herald this morning reported that a similar case to the one Alex Salmond is attempting to hide behind in the Court of Session was thrown out in 2007 by Scotland's top judges. (2)

Last week Scottish Labour wrote to the UK’s top civil servant, Sir Gus O'Donnell to demand an urgent investigation into the First Minister's publicly funded cover-up campaign to keep details of the cost of the SNP’s local income tax policy out of the public domain.

Scottish Labour Leader, Iain Gray, said:

“This revelation is explosive and shows the SNP have engaged in a systematic programme of deception lasting many years.

“In the space of a week, their approach has gone from the absurd to the deceitful.

"They have consistently claimed that this policy would cost only 3p for families but these latest revelations show their extraordinary lengths to hide the truth.

“The cat is now out of the bag.

“This single piece of paper shows the SNP plan to be completely unworkable and completely unfair.

"There is now no excuse to continue wasting taxpayers' money on this cover up.

"Alex Salmond argument's to keep this document secret has been blown out the water.

“Families would be hundreds of pounds worse off a year under these secret SNP plans.

“There is now no excuse for the SNP to continue their disgraceful court action and must publish the full documents today

(1) See p.1 of today’s Telegraph or see: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/SNP/8435801/Alex-Salmonds-local-income-tax-plans-will-cost-families-fifty-per-cent-more.html

(2) Alex Salmond has argued that the taxpayer funded cover-up campaign is required to establish “a point of principle”. However, The Herald today revealed that in January 2007 three Court of Session judges rejected a similar case brought by ministers in the last government. (see p.6 of today’s Herald)

Is the local income tax in their manifesto/proposals for the next parliament? If not, what's the relevance?

Considering the national Labour Party were going to tax us much more heavily to reduce the deficit, I do find it extraordinarily hypocritical for Labour politicians to be screaming about us being taxed more.

[MountcastleHibs]

Is the local income tax in their manifesto/proposals for the next parliament? If not, what's the relevance?

Considering the national Labour Party were going to tax us much more heavily to reduce the deficit, I do find it extraordinarily hypocritical for Labour politicians to be screaming about us being taxed more.

They're manifesto is not announced until next week. It's well known the SNP want to introduce this LIT, but whether it's in the manifesto is another thing entirely. It doesn't surprise me this has appeared. The media are going to be attacking the SNP from every angle, with their sensationalist bull***t

From what I understand of LIT, it's a far fairer system than the current Council Tax.

Labour and hypocrisy. Never.

Edit: the story has just been on the news. Salmond talking about it being an issue at the next election (2015), and that the rate would in fact be 3p. Interestingly Lib Dems support this policy.

No doubt it'll be a labour policy in their 2015 manifesto.

[lucky]

its apparently one of their key policies. Whas hypocritical of of Labour on this? Its either going to cost US ALL 5p in the pound in tax or not. The question is why dont they want the public to know?

[CropleyWasGod]

its apparently one of their key policies. Whas hypocritical of of Labour on this? Its either going to cost US ALL 5p in the pound in tax or not. The question is why dont they want the public to know?

1. it's not one of their key policies.

2. it's either going to cost some of us 5p, or 3p.

3. it's also going to save us Council Tax.

[lucky]

They're manifesto is not announced until next week. It's well known the SNP want to introduce this LIT, but whether it's in the manifesto is another thing entirely. It doesn't surprise me this has appeared. The media are going to be attacking the SNP from every angle, with their sensationalist bull***t

From what I understand of LIT, it's a far fairer system than the current Council Tax.

Labour and hypocrisy. Never.

Edit: the story has just been on the news. Salmond talking about it being an issue at the next election (2015), and that the rate would in fact be 3p. Interestingly Lib Dems support this policy.

No doubt it'll be a labour policy in their 2015 manifesto.

It that's the case why is he spending £50k of our money stopping the freedom of Information request on this? As for media attacks on the Nats, have you seen the coverage Ian Gray is getting.
got say a bit disappointed in the way your attempting to argue on this point. First its not in the manifesto then its not relevant until 2015. Salmond has stated he wants a LIT now. So its not reasonable to release the figures to public prior to the election.

The SNP polices don't stand up to scrutiny. wee Eck full of spin but no substance.

[MountcastleHibs]

It that's the case why is he spending £50k of our money stopping the freedom of Information request on this? As for media attacks on the Nats, have you seen the coverage Ian Gray is getting.
got say a bit disappointed in the way your attempting to argue on this point. First its not in the manifesto then its not relevant until 2015. Salmond has stated he wants a LIT now. So its not reasonable to release the figures to public prior to the election.

The SNP polices don't stand up to scrutiny. wee Eck full of spin but no substance.

It is sensationalist. The media are not going into the facts. It's not going to be in a manifesto until 2015, and its either 3p or 5p depending on income. The media are only reporting what they want to report.

[CropleyWasGod]

It that's the case why is he spending £50k of our money stopping the freedom of Information request on this? As for media attacks on the Nats, have you seen the coverage Ian Gray is getting.
got say a bit disappointed in the way your attempting to argue on this point. First its not in the manifesto then its not relevant until 2015. Salmond has stated he wants a LIT now. So its not reasonable to release the figures to public prior to the election.

The SNP polices don't stand up to scrutiny. wee Eck full of spin but no substance.

It's not a policy yet.

[marinello59]

It that's the case why is he spending £50k of our money stopping the freedom of Information request on this? As for media attacks on the Nats, have you seen the coverage Ian Gray is getting.
got say a bit disappointed in the way your attempting to argue on this point. First its not in the manifesto then its not relevant until 2015. Salmond has stated he wants a LIT now. So its not reasonable to release the figures to public prior to the election.

The SNP polices don't stand up to scrutiny. wee Eck full of spin but no substance.

Because we may not like what we read. I may dislike the Tories but at least they have treated us like grown ups when putting forward their proposals. Salmond might be the cleverest political operator in this country by a country mile but his achilles heel is a tendency to populist policies.

[johnrebus]

Because we may not like what we read. I may dislike the Tories but at least they have treated us like grown ups when putting forward their proposals. Salmond might be the cleverest political operator in this country by a country mile but his achilles heel is a tendency to populist policies.


His achilles heel is the fact that he is a Yam.

:rolleyes:

[ancienthibby]

As much as I think Gray is a useless streak of pish without a single policy idea worth the name, he didnt come out of that exchange looking particularly bad. He was just ambushed by a bunch of loudmouthed weegies who had no interest in debate but just wanted to shout loudly and get oan the box.

Sorry, no!

That's two days in a row that he's had a car crash while out campaigning - anyone heard what today's car crash has been??:devil:

Beyond that, however, he has to accept that he will be forever tagged as a chicken coward. The same group confronted Auntie Bella and she stood up to them and took them on!

And if that wasn't bad enough, theweegreychickencoward then goes on TV and tells how he was in Mozambique, Cambodia, Chile and tries to make a comparision. That is just utterly shameful.

He is a dead politician walking!:agree:

[ancienthibby]

It that's the case why is he spending £50k of our money stopping the freedom of Information request on this? As for media attacks on the Nats, have you seen the coverage Ian Gray is getting.
got say a bit disappointed in the way your attempting to argue on this point. First its not in the manifesto then its not relevant until 2015. Salmond has stated he wants a LIT now. So its not reasonable to release the figures to public prior to the election.

The SNP polices don't stand up to scrutiny. wee Eck full of spin but no substance.

Why Salmond is defending this action is that a civil servant would never give advice to a Government minister again, if private memos between advisers and ministers where to be immediately subject to FOI regulations.

Beyond that, however, the weechickencoward and the Director of the FOI office are close biddies. So close that one of them married the other one's ex-wife!!

Makes one a wee bit suspicious, no??:rolleyes:

And if you want SNP policies (not yet published) to be scrutinised a bit more, why not start with the Labour Party and their plan to create 250,000 apprentices when the unemployment level is just above 200,000??:rolleyes:

Hope you are getting ready to welcome all those 50,000 immigrants who don't even know they are needed.:greengrin

[ancienthibby]

It's not a policy yet.

Correct!

In fact, I believe the SNP has said that if they are elected to govern for another 4-year term, they would use that time to prepare for LIT, but introducing it would be an election away.

What we have here with the knickersinatwist Labour Party is just standard politiking!

[marinello59]

Correct!

In fact, I believe the SNP has said that if they are elected to govern for another 4-year term, they would use that time to prepare for LIT, but introducing it would be an election away.

What we have here with the knickersinatwist Labour Party is just standard politiking!

Every single last one of them is guilty of that.

[Dashing Bob S]

Never really had much time for the SNP, but they've been half-decent in Scottish Government and put the parliament on the map. Yes, they've made mistakes, but I'd rather see us with a proper parliament and government than the glorified extended Strathclyde Regional Council we were with the Labour Party.

I can't believe that I was a strong Labour supporter at one time in my life. I find that bunch of opportunists, chancers and buearucrats just about the most objectionable force in modern British politics at the moment. With the spineless, misguided and treacherous Lib Dems and the beyond-the-pale Tories, the SNP win by default with me.

And don't get me started on that **** Gray.

[ancienthibby]

Why Salmond is defending this action is that a civil servant would never give advice to a Government minister again, if private memos between advisers and ministers where to be immediately subject to FOI regulations.

Beyond that, however, the weechickencoward and the Director of the FOI office are close biddies. So close that one of them married the other one's ex-wife!!

Makes one a wee bit suspicious, no??:rolleyes:

And if you want SNP policies (not yet published) to be scrutinised a bit more, why not start with the Labour Party and their plan to create 250,000 apprentices when the unemployment level is just above 200,000??:rolleyes:

Hope you are getting ready to welcome all those 50,000 immigrants who don't even know they are needed.:greengrin

All media now reporting that News International (the voice of the Liebor Party) HAS NOW ADMITTED PHONE HACKING AND IS ALREADY SETTING UP A COMPENSATION FUND FOR VICTIMS!!

Just how many car crashes can the weegreychichencoward's party create.:aok:

[marinello59]

All media now reporting that News International (the voice of the Liebor Party) HAS NOW ADMITTED PHONE HACKING AND IS ALREADY SETTING UP A COMPENSATION FUND FOR VICTIMS!!

Just how many car crashes can the weegreychichencoward's party create.:aok:

More like the Tory party mouthpiece again these days. And if the rumours are true The Sun up here may come out in favour of the SNP. (They will be waiting to see who looks most likely to win first.)

[Mibbes Aye]

All media now reporting that News International (the voice of the Liebor Party) HAS NOW ADMITTED PHONE HACKING AND IS ALREADY SETTING UP A COMPENSATION FUND FOR VICTIMS!!

Just how many car crashes can the weegreychichencoward's party create.:aok:

:faf:

Someone should tell News International. And the Labour Party :greengrin

[Beefster]

Why Salmond is defending this action is that a civil servant would never give advice to a Government minister again, if private memos between advisers and ministers where to be immediately subject to FOI regulations.

Beyond that, however, the weechickencoward and the Director of the FOI office are close biddies. So close that one of them married the other one's ex-wife!!

Makes one a wee bit suspicious, no??:rolleyes:

And if you want SNP policies (not yet published) to be scrutinised a bit more, why not start with the Labour Party and their plan to create 250,000 apprentices when the unemployment level is just above 200,000??:rolleyes:

Hope you are getting ready to welcome all those 50,000 immigrants who don't even know they are needed.:greengrin

I'm not sure what sort of circles you move in but I'd be pretty upset with my mate if he married my ex-wife.

[HibeeSince85]

Never really had much time for the SNP, but they've been half-decent in Scottish Government and put the parliament on the map. Yes, they've made mistakes, but I'd rather see us with a proper parliament and government than the glorified extended Strathclyde Regional Council we were with the Labour Party.

I can't believe that I was a strong Labour supporter at one time in my life. I find that bunch of opportunists, chancers and buearucrats just about the most objectionable force in modern British politics at the moment. With the spineless, misguided and treacherous Lib Dems and the beyond-the-pale Tories, the SNP win by default with me.

And don't get me started on that **** Gray.

Labour are a disaster at the moment, both here and down south, they always had my vote in the Generals with the SNP having my vote in Scotland.

SNP for me and I think they could get a majority.

[Mibbes Aye]

Labour are a disaster at the moment, both here and down south, they always had my vote in the Generals with the SNP having my vote in Scotland.

SNP for me and I think they could get a majority.

Why are they a disaster at the moment?

[HibeeSince85]

Why are they a disaster at the moment?

My view on it is that I don't think their policies are strong enough in opposition at the moment down south and they have let a minority government off fairly lightly up here(my opinion of course but i'm delighted they are looking so poor, I want the SNP to win this election and if Labour were half decent they might have had a chance of getting back in)

They don't look like a party that could do anything in power at the moment.

[Mibbes Aye]

My view on it is that I don't think their policies are strong enough in opposition at the moment down south and they have let a minority government off fairly lightly up here(my opinion of course but i'm delighted they are looking so poor, I want the SNP to win this election and if Labour were half decent they might have had a chance of getting back in)

They don't look like a party that could do anything in power at the moment.

And their policies should be....?

[Beefster]

And their policies should be....?

Are you sure that you're not Ed Miliband?!

[lucky]

Labour are a disaster at the moment, both here and down south, they always had my vote in the Generals with the SNP having my vote in Scotland.

SNP for me and I think they could get a majority.

absolutely no chance of any party getting a majority, if the Nats did then full steam ahead to oblivion of independence

[MountcastleHibs]

absolutely no chance of any party getting a majority, if the Nats did then full steam ahead to oblivion of independence

I don't think they'll get a majority either, more so because the current election system doesn't really give majorities.

But if they did, independence would be put to a referendum. They won't just do things that change circumstances so much without referendum, like their Labour counterparts did.

[AgentDaleCooper]

His achilles heel is the fact that he is a Yam.

:rolleyes:
not entirely relevant, but is rebus (in the books) not a yam? :wink:

[AgentDaleCooper]

Are you sure that you're not Ed Miliband?!

haha, exactly (good god, i'm finding myself agreeing with a tory on two separate threads:paranoid:)

[Calvin]

not entirely relevant, but is rebus (in the books) not a yam? :wink:

Raith fan!

[Hainan Hibs]

As much as I think Gray is a useless streak of pish without a single policy idea worth the name, he didnt come out of that exchange looking particularly bad. He was just ambushed by a bunch of loudmouthed weegies who had no interest in debate but just wanted to shout loudly and get oan the box.

Have to disagree, he should have stood his ground, let them shout for a while and then calmly discuss it with them, and if they continued to shout then they would look like the idiots.

He wants to whip up the Labour votes with the "I'll fight the Tories" pash, but when he runs and hides in Subway from a group of protestors in Labours heartland he will have a tough time convincing anyone he is up to the challenge.

Edit : His response to the incident was cringeworthy to say the least,

"I've worked before for two years in a civil war. I've been in Rwanda just after the genocide. I've walked the killing fields of Cambodia and I was in Chile three days after Pinochet demitted office. I've been a lot of places, seen a lot of things - that certainly wasn't the worst of them"


On other news the SNP have gained a council seat in Wick, vote share when from 17% last time to 47% this time. The Holyrood seat is being fought mainly between the Lib Dem MSP and the SNP candidate, hopefully the council by-election is a sign of things to come.

[Hainan Hibs]

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/3518196/Ure-the-man-for-me-Alex.html

Midge Ure backs Salmond:top marks

Is there no end to the celebrity endorsements:greengrin:thumbsup:

[marinello59]

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/3518196/Ure-the-man-for-me-Alex.html

Midge Ure backs Salmond:top marks

Is there no end to the celebrity endorsements:greengrin:thumbsup:

I intend voting for the party that the Krankies endorse.

[Beefster]

Edit : His response to the incident was cringeworthy to say the least,

"I've worked before for two years in a civil war. I've been in Rwanda just after the genocide. I've walked the killing fields of Cambodia and I was in Chile three days after Pinochet demitted office. I've been a lot of places, seen a lot of things - that certainly wasn't the worst of them"NP candidate, hopefully the council by-election is a sign of things to come.

The strangest and most pathetic response that I've ever heard to a bit of grief from a voter.


http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/3518196/Ure-the-man-for-me-Alex.html

Midge Ure backs Salmond:top marks

Is there no end to the celebrity endorsements:greengrin:thumbsup:

I hate celebrity endorsements. "I wrote a decent song 30 years ago, tagged on Geldof's coat-tails and and am a self-important knob-jockey. Vote for Salmond".

[CropleyWasGod]

[QUOTE=Beefster;2775997]The strangest and most pathetic response that I've ever heard to a bit of grief from a voter.




As somebody wrote in the Scotsman today.... the fact that Gray took refuge in Subway makes one thing very clear. When faced with debate, he just goes to pieces.

:greengrin

[lucky]

Hardly faced a debate. It was crowd who would not listen to any reasonable response

[discman]

[QUOTE=Beefster;2775997]The strangest and most pathetic response that I've ever heard to a bit of grief from a voter.




As somebody wrote in the Scotsman today.... the fact that Gray took refuge in Subway makes one thing very clear. When faced with debate, he just goes to pieces.

:greengrin





:thumbsup:

[ancienthibby]

Hardly faced a debate. It was crowd who would not listen to any reasonable response

Garbage!!

The weechickencowardgreyman hardly opened his mouth to speak at all!!

Check the videos, he was shepherded away by his minders almost before the whole incident had begun - and even then he had to take refuge in a sanny shop!!

He's now a major liability to the Liebour Party in this election and should be delisted!!

Oops no, hold that one - he's the second best asset the SNP has!!:greengrin

[lucky]

Unlike the tartan Tory who forced himself on to a boys football club today.

NEWS: SALMOND SCORES OWN GOAL AS HE CRASHES FOOTBALL CLUB OPENING

SNP GAFFE AS SALMOND POSES FOR PHOTO-OP AS SNP CUT FACILITIES AND HIKE UP FEES

Scottish Labour has today called on Alex Salmond to apologise to parents and kids across Renfrewshire after he gate-crashed the opening at a football club for a photo opportunity, despite the SNP forcing hikes in training fees and cutting facilities.

Gleniffer Thistle Boys' Club in Paisley were informed this morning that Alex Salmond demanded to make an appearance only hours before he arrived.

Seeming unbeknown to Alex Salmond, elsewhere in Renfrewshire the SNP-led Council has been cutting facilities and increasing fees for kids football classes, which has sparked fury among parents.

One Renfrewshire football club for youngsters claims it will be hit by a 275% hike in pitch hire costs when a range of increased charges for council services come into force. (1)

Former Scotland international Ally McCoist has added his voice to the campaign by hundreds of parents who are campaigning against a decision to downgrade football facilities. (2)

By contrast Scottish Labour’s candidate for Renfrewshire North & West, Stuart Clark, was out supporting the parents campaigning against the cuts. (3)

Speaking today, Stuart Clark, said:

"The SNP is clearly more interested in photo opportunities than opportunities for our young people.

"The SNP have scored a stunning own goal.

"The sight of Alex Salmond swanning into the club and posing for photos on the very pitches that his council colleagues are ramping up fees for will infuriate the hundreds of parents across Renfrewshire who have signed the petitions against the fee hikes.

"“Parents are furious at the decision of the SNP to cut back facilities and ramp up – they deserve an apology from Alex Salmond for attempting to take advantage like this.

"Alex Salmond may have turned up aiming to get his face in the papers but he leaves with egg on his face.

"There’ll be some red-faces at SNP HQ today after this latest gaffe.

"Times are tough and now the Tories are back, people in Renfrewshire know that it is only Labour who will stand up for what really matters."


(1) Source: http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/clubs-left-counting-the-cost-of-cuts-1.1094663

(2) Source: http://www.paisleydailyexpress.co.uk/renfrewshire-news/2011/04/06/super-ally-slams-blaes-park-decision-87085-28466031/

(3) For more see the Save Erskine Fooball Faebook page: http://en-gb.facebook.com/pages/Save-Erskine-Football/127093750695738?sk=app_2373072738#!/pages/Save-Erskine-Football/127093750695738?sk=wall

[marinello59]

I hope this doesn't cost them Midge Ure's support.

[lucky]

I hope this doesn't cost them Midge Ure's support.

Does he even live in Scotland?

[CropleyWasGod]

Does he even live in Scotland?

Um, I think you'll find that he, er, lives in.... aaahhh, Vienna.

[marinello59]

Um, I think you'll find that he, er, lives in.... aaahhh, Vienna.

Vienna?
It means nothing to me.

[discman]

Vienna?
It means nothing to me.




Oh! ........ :greengrin

[Sir David Gray]

didn't know UKIP where standing in scottish elections?

Yep, they are.

As I say, they tend to go for the regional votes rather than the constituencies, although some constituencies do have UKIP candidates.

They put forward candidates at the last Scottish elections in 2007 and as far as I'm aware, that was the first time they have done so. I don't believe they took part in 2003 or 1999.

[lucky]

UKIP are standing for a parliament they want to close down. Seems a bit strange but then again this bunch of right wing lunatics are strange. They are a wasted vote and clearly not in touch with majority of Scotland. Their polices on immigration are cringeworthy, damn near fascists, not nice people.

[Future17]

Garbage!!

The weechickencowardgreyman hardly opened his mouth to speak at all!!

Check the videos, he was shepherded away by his minders almost before the whole incident had begun - and even then he had to take refuge in a sanny shop!!

He's now a major liability to the Liebour Party in this election and should be delisted!!

Oops no, hold that one - he's the second best asset the SNP has!!:greengrin

I'm no fan of Grey but your continued use of this nickname is doing my head in.

Is a chicken and a coward not the same thing?

Or did he once run away from a debate with a chicken?

[Future17]

Taken from BBC report of leaders' debate on the BBC's Politics Show:

When asked what qualities each leader admired about their opponent, Mr Scott said: "I'm not interested in personalities, I'm much more interested in policies."

Miss Goldie said she admired Mr Salmond's ability to "deliver Conservative policies", while Mr Gray said: "Alex is a showman and an actor and I will never be those things."

Mr Salmond said: "I hugely admire the forbearance of all these three excellent estimable people in putting up with these other rotters and their political parties."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-13029007

[ancienthibby]

I'm no fan of Grey but your continued use of this nickname is doing my head in.

Is a chicken and a coward not the same thing?

Or did he once run away from a debate with a chicken?

Now you're catching on!!:greengrin

Where will the weegreychickencarcrash happen today??:devil:

[RyeSloan]

And their policies should be....?

Very good question, one that Mr Miliband needs to get an answer to fast as currently there doesn't seem to be too many...Labour in Scotland have been just as vacuous in opposition up here and the fact that their manifesto opens with a 'ooooh the Tories are back so support us' line sums it up for me.

[steakbake]

Very good question, one that Mr Miliband needs to get an answer to fast as currently there doesn't seem to be too many...Labour in Scotland have been just as vacuous in opposition up here and the fact that their manifesto opens with a 'ooooh the Tories are back so support us' line sums it up for me.

The pavlovian bell of Scottish politics.

[Mibbes Aye]

The pavlovian bell of Scottish politics.

But it resonates for a reason :wink: :greengrin

[steakbake]

Cos we're all animals? :wink:

[Sir David Gray]

UKIP are standing for a parliament they want to close down. Seems a bit strange but then again this bunch of right wing lunatics are strange. They are a wasted vote and clearly not in touch with majority of Scotland. Their polices on immigration are cringeworthy, damn near fascists, not nice people.

If you actually look at their manifesto pledges for this election, I think you'll find that UKIP are saying that they will retain the Scottish parliament. They plan to scrap all MSPs and put Scotland's MPs in Holyrood instead.

Personally, I am of the opinion that if the United Kingdom is going to continue and Scotland is going to remain a part of it then the laws that are passed in the parliament of the United Kingdom should apply to each and every citizen in the entire nation.

I don't agree at all that votes for them, or any other minor party, are a wasted vote. I know full well that UKIP are never going to win the Scottish election and the chances of them even getting one MSP into Holyrood are almost non-existent.

However if a party or candidate is standing in an election that you think best represents your views then you should vote for them, irrespective of how much you fancy their chances of getting seats.

By using your logic, in Scotland, nobody would vote that wasn't a voter of Labour or the SNP as they are pretty much the only parties who have a realistic chance of winning elections. In UK elections, Labour's basically the only party up here so, again using your logic, if you're not a Labour voter, you shouldn't bother turning up at the ballot box to register your support for your preferred candidate because it's a wasted vote.

As for them not being in touch with the majority of Scotland. What does that actually mean? UKIP were the largest party in Scotland, outside of the 'big four', at last year's General Election and they got more votes than the Green Party, which a couple of people on here are talking about supporting. Does that mean that the Greens are out of touch with Scotland as well?

I would argue that in terms of their main policy pledge, the withdrawal of the UK from the European Union, if we were to actually get to vote in a referendum on this issue then I think you would find that UKIP are actually very much in touch with the majority of the country.

Unfortunately the major parties are scared of tackling this issue and continually refuse to give the public a chance to vote on it because they know how it will likely end up.

Given that the current party in charge of the Scottish Parliament took the decision to release the man convicted of carrying out the single worst atrocity on British soil, I would also argue that in some ways UKIP are much more in touch with the majority of the people of Scotland than the SNP are.

I also completely disagree with the 'fascists' tag. UKIP were approached by the BNP a couple of years ago and asked if they wanted to join forces with them. UKIP completely rejected this offer and totally distanced themselves from the BNP.

You may disagree with their immigration policies but I would say that their policies in this area are in line with the views of the majority of the population. They're certainly no fascists.

[steakbake]

I don't think that UKIP are necessarily fascists. That's a bit strong. Farage is an interesting guy but he's a bit like the barmy uncle who turns up at Christmas who wants to have a rant when the sherry's been passed around too much.

They're just a bit of a colourful joke. A bit like the Raving Loony Party but without the sense of humour. It's a bit more like a special interest group, full of the sort of people who end a bit of political 'insight' with "...of course, you can't say that nowadays days..." and who wince at the mere mention of Brussels.

I expect if they ever did form a government, the Foreign Minister would be posted to Dover with a telescope to keep an eye out for foreign types coming to invade.

[Future17]

If you actually look at their manifesto pledges for this election, I think you'll find that UKIP are saying that they will retain the Scottish parliament. They plan to scrap all MSPs and put Scotland's MPs in Holyrood instead.

Personally, I am of the opinion that if the United Kingdom is going to continue and Scotland is going to remain a part of it then the laws that are passed in the parliament of the United Kingdom should apply to each and every citizen in the entire nation.

Are these two paragraphs not in direct contradiction? :confused:

If all MP's representing Scottish constituencies weren't allowed to vote in Westminster, laws would be passed in that House that affected Scottish people without their views being represented by the by their chosen representatives.

[One Day Soon]

The Scotsman and Evening News comment pages must be pretty threadbare with all the Cyber Gnats gathering on this thread.

Do any of the more obviously slavering at the mouth specimens really think they're actually persuading anyone to vote SNP with their posts?

[steakbake]

The Scotsman and Evening News comment pages must be pretty threadbare with all the Cyber Gnats gathering on this thread.

Do any of the more obviously slavering at the mouth specimens really think they're actually persuading anyone to vote SNP with their posts?

They really ought to close those comment threads. The number of absolute fanbelts - of all persuasions - is just horrendous.

They should, however, leave them open for people to chip in their latest thoughts about the trams, Kenny Ritchie and stories about parking wardens in Embra, though at the end of the day I think you'll find it's either the fault of the Gnats or London Liebour. :wink:

[One Day Soon]

They really ought to close those comment threads. The number of absolute fanbelts - of all persuasions - is just horrendous.

They should, however, leave them open for people to chip in their latest thoughts about the trams, Kenny Ritchie and stories about parking wardens in Embra, though at the end of the day I think you'll find it's either the fault of the Gnats or London Liebour. :wink:

That's what I find disturbing about some of the posts here. Day release from the Royal Edinburgh to go into Morningside library and then start posting. Dear me.

How bonkers do you have to be to get excited by a Midge Ure endorsement in an election? What's next - the Krankies? Fran and Anna? Maybe Ronnie Corbett? Its great that 80s pop stars are telling us how to vote, maybe we can get Barbara Dickson to start performing dangerous surgery next or Lulu could direct economic policy.

[steakbake]

That's what I find disturbing about some of the posts here. Day release from the Royal Edinburgh to go into Morningside library and then start posting. Dear me.

How bonkers do you have to be to get excited by a Midge Ure endorsement in an election? What's next - the Krankies? Fran and Anna? Maybe Ronnie Corbett? Its great that 80s pop stars are telling us how to vote, maybe we can get Barbara Dickson to start performing dangerous surgery next or Lulu could direct economic policy.

Krankies are defo Tories and they don't call him "Wee Red" Ronnie Corbett for nothing.

Turns out that Jimmy Somerville has shown his hand as a BNP supporter and I'm sure I just read on twitter that Glen Michael has just called for the instatement of islamic caliphate under sharia law.

Liz McColgan is being lined up as the next host of Top Gear when Jeremy Clarkson dies but isnt bothered about politics.

[Sir David Gray]

Are these two paragraphs not in direct contradiction? :confused:

If all MP's representing Scottish constituencies weren't allowed to vote in Westminster, laws would be passed in that House that affected Scottish people without their views being represented by the by their chosen representatives.

The first paragraph is what UKIP are campaigning for and the second paragraph is my personal opinion.

As far as I'm led to believe, Scotland's MPs would not be barred from voting at Westminster. They would continue to be in Westminster but would also be in Holyrood and would replace the current lot of MSPs. Alex Salmond used to sit in Holyrood and Westminster, up until last year's UK General Election.

As far as I'm concerned, Scotland should decide what it wants. If we're going to be an independent nation then fine, let's get on with it. I'm not 100% against independence, myself, but I wouldn't want it under the leadership of the SNP.

If we're going to decide to remain part of the United Kingdom then I believe our legislation should come from Westminster and the whole of the UK should come under its jurisdiction. In my opinion, one parliament should rule over the entire country.

If I'm being honest, I wouldn't be sorry to see us knock down the Scottish Parliament and starting again from scratch. It's a total monstrosity and a complete waste of money.

I could think of better ways of spending £414 million.

[Hainan Hibs]

The Scotsman and Evening News comment pages must be pretty threadbare with all the Cyber Gnats gathering on this thread.

Do any of the more obviously slavering at the mouth specimens really think they're actually persuading anyone to vote SNP with their posts?


That's what I find disturbing about some of the posts here. Day release from the Royal Edinburgh to go into Morningside library and then start posting. Dear me.

How bonkers do you have to be to get excited by a Midge Ure endorsement in an election? What's next - the Krankies? Fran and Anna? Maybe Ronnie Corbett? Its great that 80s pop stars are telling us how to vote, maybe we can get Barbara Dickson to start performing dangerous surgery next or Lulu could direct economic policy.

Someone is a tad nervous about the 5th of May:greengrin

[IWasThere2016]

For the first time ever I am contemplating not voting.

The absolute sh** I have been sent today - via a Minister - is scandalous.

IMHO it is clear there is not one politician/party out there with any vision/skill/solutions!

[ancienthibby]

For the first time ever I am contemplating not voting.

The absolute sh** I have been sent today - via a Minister - is scandalous.

IMHO it is clear there is not one politician/party out there with any vision/skill/solutions!

Gonnie gie us even a wee clue, TQM??:devil:

[sKipper]

Having voted SNP in 2007 I will definitely be doing so again this time.

Quite pleased with what has been achieved over the last few years and at long last a bit of vision is being shown.

The best argument of all though is, Iain Gray. What a thought him being First Minister of Scotland.

[marinello59]

For the first time ever I am contemplating not voting.

The absolute sh** I have been sent today - via a Minister - is scandalous.

IMHO it is clear there is not one politician/party out there with any vision/skill/solutions!

Totally agree about no party having any sort of vision beyond grabbing power at this election. If I vote at all it will be for the best local candidate regardless of the colour of their rossette. That might be hard though given that I haven't seen any signs that there is a campaign running at the moment.

[One Day Soon]

Someone is a tad nervous about the 5th of May:greengrin

Not really. Given the public sector budget cuts that are coming and the spectacular dishonesty of some of the promises being made, the people who should be nervous are those truly dependent upon public services for their quality of life or their prospective life chances in, for example, education.

As to those who think the SNP have done a good job over the last few years, you are about to find out the meaning of the words hubris and nemesis.

Still, I suppose if the dodgy early release of Scotland's greatest mass murderer (and the singular achievement thereby of putting saltires on the tarmac in Tripoli FFS), the failure to even put to the vote in Parliament a proposition on supposedly your most fundamental belief (independence) when you achieve government for the first time in your history, the humiliation of having to publicly swallow your broken avowed economic policy (Irish Arc of Prosperity anyone?) and the fact that Alex Salmond actively called for English electors to vote for the Lib Dems in the last election - yes that's the same Lib Dems who currently have their lips vaccum tight to the Tory sphincter in London - is something that you feel good about, then good luck to you.

[Beefster]

Not really. Given the public sector budget cuts that are coming and the spectacular dishonesty of some of the promises being made, the people who should be nervous are those truly dependent upon public services for their quality of life or their prospective life chances in, for example, education.

As to those who think the SNP have done a good job over the last few years, you are about to find out the meaning of the words hubris and nemesis.

Still, I suppose if the dodgy early release of Scotland's greatest mass murderer (and the singular achievement thereby of putting saltires on the tarmac in Tripoli FFS), the failure to even put to the vote in Parliament a proposition on supposedly your most fundamental belief (independence) when you achieve government for the first time in your history, the humiliation of having to publicly swallow your broken avowed economic policy (Irish Arc of Prosperity anyone?) and the fact that Alex Salmond actively called for English electors to vote for the Lib Dems in the last election - yes that's the same Lib Dems who currently have their lips vaccum tight to the Tory sphincter in London - is something that you feel good about, then good luck to you.

The Labour government in Westminster had made it clear that they wanted to see him released and they had their fingers and toes crossed that the SNP administration up here would come to the same decision so I think you need to look inwards before criticising any other party about that.

[7 Up]

The Labour Party used to represent ordinary, hard working folk. They represented people like my parents, maybe yours too.

The Labour Party today is not that same party. I do not recognise the self-serving charlatans who have seized control of that once honourable party as representatives of ordinary people. They lie and cheat and steal. Labour today are a cruel mockery of what that party used to stand for.

I voted SNP for the first time in 2007. Like many I did so a little hesitantly, unsure as to how they would perform in government. Generally they have done well. Sure they've made mistakes, but show me a single government that hasn't. Four years on and I'll vote SNP again, this time far more certain that it's the right choice for Scotland.

[One Day Soon]

The Labour government in Westminster had made it clear that they wanted to see him released and they had their fingers and toes crossed that the SNP administration up here would come to the same decision so I think you need to look inwards before criticising any other party about that.

Just remind me again which SNP Minister actually took the decision to visit him in prison and then to release him? Everyone else had their opinion but ultimately the decision to actually release him was taken by one Minister and one Government alone and that was the one led by Alex Salmond.

[One Day Soon]

The Labour Party used to represent ordinary, hard working folk. They represented people like my parents, maybe yours too.

The Labour Party today is not that same party. I do not recognise the self-serving charlatans who have seized control of that once honourable party as representatives of ordinary people. They lie and cheat and steal. Labour today are a cruel mockery of what that party used to stand for.

I voted SNP for the first time in 2007. Like many I did so a little hesitantly, unsure as to how they would perform in government. Generally they have done well. Sure they've made mistakes, but show me a single government that hasn't. Four years on and I'll vote SNP again, this time far more certain that it's the right choice for Scotland.

Good for you, total cobblers, but good for you.

The number of people I know living in socially owned housing rebuilt by Labour between 1997 and 2007, treated in new hospitals built during the same period, going to new state schools built during the same ten years (as my daughter does), benefiting as pensioners from free central heating put in under Labour and gotten into empoyment under modern apprenticeships set under Labour is a lot.

By all means make the case for the SNP - but spare me the standard Nationalist line on 'evil' Labour. Its duller than watching Braveheart.

[cabbageandribs1875]

mon the nats :agree: mon eck

[sKipper]

The Labour Party used to represent ordinary, hard working folk. They represented people like my parents, maybe yours too.

The Labour Party today is not that same party. I do not recognise the self-serving charlatans who have seized control of that once honourable party as representatives of ordinary people. They lie and cheat and steal. Labour today are a cruel mockery of what that party used to stand for.

I voted SNP for the first time in 2007. Like many I did so a little hesitantly, unsure as to how they would perform in government. Generally they have done well. Sure they've made mistakes, but show me a single government that hasn't. Four years on and I'll vote SNP again, this time far more certain that it's the right choice for Scotland.

Well done sir.

Spot on.

[Sir David Gray]

Maybe it's just me but I really can't take the SNP seriously. Here we have a party that claims to hold Scotland's independence as a free and sovereign nation at the core of its reason for existence.

However, on securing that so called 'independence' from Westminster, the first thing that the SNP will do (after they've finished building even more unsightly wind farms on our beautiful countryside, displaying even more Gaelic signs all over the country that less than 1% of the country can actually read and granting early release to even more convicted terrorists, that is) is sign us up as the newest member of the European Union, whose interference in our ability to pass our own laws for our own country, and whose intrusion into our daily lives, would vastly exceed that of Westminster.

I find it incredible that a party who supports independence for Scotland would be in favour of Scotland simply passing our lawmaking powers from one external parliament to another.

But even more so, I'm shocked that people who share that goal of one day achieving independence for Scotland would choose to vote for the SNP.

[Calvin]

Still, I suppose if the dodgy early release of Scotland's greatest mass murderer (and the singular achievement thereby of putting saltires on the tarmac in Tripoli FFS), the failure to even put to the vote in Parliament a proposition on supposedly your most fundamental belief (independence) when you achieve government for the first time in your history, the humiliation of having to publicly swallow your broken avowed economic policy (Irish Arc of Prosperity anyone?) and the fact that Alex Salmond actively called for English electors to vote for the Lib Dems in the last election - yes that's the same Lib Dems who currently have their lips vaccum tight to the Tory sphincter in London - is something that you feel good about, then good luck to you.

An excellent point to bring up. While whether you agree or disagree with the party politics behind it (I personally agree that releasing a dying man not from this country was a morally correct decision) it provides an excellent counterargument to the theory I hear from undecided voters that an independent Scotland could not hold its own on a world stage. Well, if standing up to America isn't 'holding our own on the world stage' then nothing is.

I find this a funny example for the other parties to put forward as a criticism of the SNP. If it has been made patently clear to you that a proposed bill will not get through parliament, are you supposed to waste parliamentary time just to 'make a point?' If your answer is yes then you undervalue our parliament and will no doubt use the same waste of time to criticise the SNP, but if your answer is no then there is no criticism there at all.

Iceland has survived. They have under 6.2% the population of Scotland and less GDP p/c than us. Yet they have managed to survive, the people still seem to be there and although times are economically very tough the quality of life of the people is not much different to here in Scotland. Iceland took on the debts of other countries and has, in the last few days, had to answer these questions. However, while in this country we are starting to clear some of the expense the UK took on with cuts to public funding, in Iceland the President has stated that "that before ordinary people are asked to pay for failed banks, the assets inside the estate of these banks should be used to pay the subs" which I think is a far better way to go about recovery. It is also interesting to note that the review of the banks published in the last few days suggests that it is not in our best interests to bail out the banks, but to instruct the banks to have 'emergency resources' as such in case of hard times. Unfortunately we don't know how the banks would exactly be legislated in the case of an independent Scotland, a criticism I am happy to place on the SNP but I would suggest that the ludicrous tolerance seen in Westminster would not have taken place here.

I voted Lib Dems in the last UK election without even knowing of Salmond's endorsement. As did he, I felt that the Lib Dems were best placed to be in a power holding position in London and that, as they were of most similar ethos to ourselves then it would be worth punishing underachieving Labour and Tory MPs by electing a Lib Dem in their place. I struggle to see how that is a criticism. With 20/20 hindsight I would have put my vote nowhere near their box but at the time it seemed a sensible and honest thing to do, and the fact that many Lib Dems never saw that coming either speaks volumes. Maybe if Labour got a few more seats and were able to form majority coalition with the Lib Dems you might not feel so strongly resentful of them? :wink: Of course I don't feel good that they're couried up to the Tories but I don't feel that the outcome of the UK election can be a criticism of the SNP.

Whichever way you look at it, 84 out of 94 election pledges met is fantastic, let alone in a minority government. And the lack of scandal compared to our predecessors speaks volumes about the competency of the ministers. Although, referencing your earlier post, this all means nothing as some people will never be persuaded, but I appreciate the chance to try and challenge some of your views.


Maybe it's just me but I really can't take the SNP seriously. Here we have a party that claims to hold Scotland's independence as a free and sovereign nation at the core of its reason for existence.

However, on securing that so called 'independence' from Westminster, the first thing that the SNP will do (after they've finished building even more unsightly wind farms on our beautiful countryside, displaying even more Gaelic signs all over the country that less than 1% of the country can actually read and granting early release to even more convicted terrorists, that is) is sign us up as the newest member of the European Union, whose interference in our ability to pass our own laws for our own country, and whose intrusion into our daily lives, would vastly exceed that of Westminster.

I find it incredible that a party who supports independence for Scotland would be in favour of Scotland simply passing our lawmaking powers from one external parliament to another.

But even more so, I'm shocked that people who share that goal of one day achieving independence for Scotland would choose to vote for the SNP.

Yeah, if we get in power we're gonna release all the terrorists just for a laugh :rolleyes: Don't undermine your points with ludicrous statements if you can! Also, if you think that renewable energy is a bad thing then that's a scunner for you as eventually we will have to use it no matter which party is in power, but I think it's a better thing to create jobs and industries in Scotland which can gain from it sooner rather than later in this economic climate!

If you use your argument that becoming independent from the UK but staying in Europe is not independence, are you trying to say that Finland and Italy are not independent countries? Are you trying to say that the European Union is one massive state? You only have to look at the Irish 'no' vote in the referendum last year for proof that each state has a clear voice, even if in that case the government manipulated their way through.

There is no comparison between the centralist structures of the UK, and those of the EU, where member states co-operate but retain their sovereignty. For instance, the Scottish Parliament, even were it to use all the tax powers available to it, would still only control 5% of its revenues. If we were an independent country, we would control 99% of them – everything except our EU receipts. There is clearly no comparison between these two kinds of union.

If we were independent we would have double the number of MEPs representing Scotland, yet unionists say we wouldn't have as much say in Europe? Bemusing to me.

[Beefster]

I honestly cannot believe that some folk are still using Iceland in the case for independence after the complete nightmare that they are going through. Does the SNP still use Ireland as an example of a small nation doing well (if you ignore the IMF/EU bailout and spending cuts that make ours look like a drop in the ocean)?

[bighairyfaeleith]

Maybe it's just me but I really can't take the SNP seriously. Here we have a party that claims to hold Scotland's independence as a free and sovereign nation at the core of its reason for existence.

However, on securing that so called 'independence' from Westminster, the first thing that the SNP will do (after they've finished building even more unsightly wind farms on our beautiful countryside, displaying even more Gaelic signs all over the country that less than 1% of the country can actually read and granting early release to even more convicted terrorists, that is) is sign us up as the newest member of the European Union, whose interference in our ability to pass our own laws for our own country, and whose intrusion into our daily lives, would vastly exceed that of Westminster.

I find it incredible that a party who supports independence for Scotland would be in favour of Scotland simply passing our lawmaking powers from one external parliament to another.

But even more so, I'm shocked that people who share that goal of one day achieving independence for Scotland would choose to vote for the SNP.

I actually quite like looking at the wind farms, almost hypnotic, really don't get everyone's objections to them.

I'd quite happily stick one in my garden if I had one!!

[CropleyWasGod]

I actually quite like looking at the wind farms, almost hypnotic, really don't get everyone's objections to them.

I'd quite happily stick one in my garden if I had one!!

I share that view. I think they are aesthetically calming. I would rather look at them than a nuclear power station.

[steakbake]

I honestly cannot believe that some folk are still using Iceland in the case for independence after the complete nightmare that they are going through. Does the SNP still use Ireland as an example of a small nation doing well (if you ignore the IMF/EU bailout and spending cuts that make ours look like a drop in the ocean)?

No but equally, for every Iceland, Ireland and Portugal there is a Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland etc.

Size of country does not indicate viability. It's how it runs their affairs that matters.

I think that some of the jubilation amongst those against independence and pointing to those countries is in poor taste.

I suspect that they forget that in a UK situation, the "global" financial disaster brought several of our banks to their knees and is causing a lot of pain. We're far from being out of the woods yet as to whether we can afford it without everything going tits up.

No doubt if that happens, then the argument is a dead rubber and it wouldn't matter either way if we were independent or in a union and we could focus on other areas of contention?

I'll get my party hat out in preparation for the UK's IMF bailout... :wink:

[Hainan Hibs]

I'll probably say similiar things as Calvino has and my work PC is all but rogered but here's my view anyway,


Not really. Given the public sector budget cuts that are coming and the spectacular dishonesty of some of the promises being made, the people who should be nervous are those truly dependent upon public services for their quality of life or their prospective life chances in, for example, education.

I agree they should be nervous, however I believe it is a case for having more economic powers at Holyrood so we can make decisions ourselves rather than sitting back and blaming Westminster when the **** trully hits the fan.


Still, I suppose if the dodgy early release of Scotland's greatest mass murderer (and the singular achievement thereby of putting saltires on the tarmac in Tripoli FFS),

The SNP released him in line with Scots Law. Whether we like that or not the documents that have been released show the SNP played with a straight bat, while Labour was all over the place with dodgy dealings. Taking the morality of the decision out of the debate it was good to finally see a strong voice in Holyrood, and gives reason to vote for another 5 years of the SNP. Iain Gray had no clue what Labour's position was, he didn't even cross the mind of Brown and co. The SNP I believe will continue to provide a strong voice for Scotland, whereas Gray and co will be puppets on a string


.the failure to even put to the vote in Parliament a proposition on supposedly your most fundamental belief (independence) when you achieve government for the first time in your history

With all opposition parties against giving the people of Scotland a vote if they had brought it to parliament they would have been jumped on for wasting time. I do get frustrated however at the lack of talk on independence at times, but Salmond and co are going down the gradualist approach which, although frustrating for fundamentalists like myself,will prove successful in the long run.


the humiliation of having to publicly swallow your broken avowed economic policy (Irish Arc of Prosperity anyone?)

As stated before the way Labour and their supporters love to smirk about foreign countries economic woes does come across as distastful even more so when Labour has a large responsibilty for the situation we find ourselves in which is not all golden compared to other nations.. For every Ireland there is a Norway, and I don't see any small independent nations desperate to be tied to bigger neighbours because of other countries not managing their economies.


and the fact that Alex Salmond actively called for English electors to vote for the Lib Dems in the last election - yes that's the same Lib Dems who currently have their lips vaccum tight to the Tory sphincter in London - is something that you feel good about, then good luck to you.

The Uk election is a different ball game and I don't see how this can be used against the SNP. Infact I seem to remember Gordon Brown arse kissing Nick Clegg in the first TV debate trying to get him onside with Labour.


When it comes down to it the SNP have been very competent in government, and in 4 years IMO they have done so much more than the Lib-Lab coalition did in 8 years. They have a highly skilled team that is head and shoulders above Labours team who are so devoid of ideas they have nicked the majority of their new policies off of the SNP.

For me the SNP has a positive vibe and has good, strong ideas for Scotland. Labour has called in the big guns from London to tell us all to send a message to the Tories by electing Labour. The "vote Labour to fight the Tories" message has been used time and time again and time and time again it has failed.

It is time for Scottish Labour to re-discover themselves, find some new talent, drop the anti-Tory line and get positive about Scotland. Another 5 years in opposition is what they need.

[steakbake]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5062899.ece - Iceland Furious at Labour Slurs

(One example)... but I'm not taking sides :wink:

[JimBHibees]

The Labour Party used to represent ordinary, hard working folk. They represented people like my parents, maybe yours too.

The Labour Party today is not that same party. I do not recognise the self-serving charlatans who have seized control of that once honourable party as representatives of ordinary people. They lie and cheat and steal. Labour today are a cruel mockery of what that party used to stand for.

I voted SNP for the first time in 2007. Like many I did so a little hesitantly, unsure as to how they would perform in government. Generally they have done well. Sure they've made mistakes, but show me a single government that hasn't. Four years on and I'll vote SNP again, this time far more certain that it's the right choice for Scotland.

That is my view also. Blair, New Labour, Mandelson, Campbell have sickened me to the core. Now vote SNP at all elections and think in Scotland they have done ok given the monority nature of their advantage.

[RyeSloan]

As stated before the way Labour and their supporters love to smirk about foreign countries economic woes does come across as distastful even more so when Labour has a large responsibilty for the situation we find ourselves in which is not all golden compared to other nations.. For every Ireland there is a Norway, and I don't see any small independent nations desperate to be tied to bigger neighbours because of other countries not managing their economies.

What about small independent nations desperate to be tied to the EU straight after gaining that 'independence'

Distastful is the way the SNP banged on and on and on and on about how Scotland shoudl be just like Ireland and Iceland...then immediately changed tack when those economies went t*ts up. Salmond was totally ignorant of the risks these countries were taking and should at least admit that.

What is the SNP's economic policy for Scotland?




When it comes down to it the SNP have been very competent in government, and in 4 years IMO they have done so much more than the Lib-Lab coalition did in 8 years.

Really? What demonstrates such competence?

I would be very interested in seeing just how many schools the SNP have commisioned (please please not the ones completed but started under previous administrations) same with hospitals built....what about the number of important infrastructure projects.

What has been the defining SNP moves in the last 4 years and have any of them been desinged to improve Scotland over the long term?

Not being funny or obtuse, I am genuinely interested in why people are so convinced the SNP have done such a good job.



For me the SNP has a positive vibe and has good, strong ideas for Scotland.

Vibes don't run countries...following on from my last question what do you consider these 'good strong ideas' to be?


Labour has called in the big guns from London to tell us all to send a message to the Tories by electing Labour. The "vote Labour to fight the Tories" message has been used time and time again and time and time again it has failed.

Pathetic isn't it...already said this on this thread, the Labour manifesto actaully opens with this scare tactic.


It is time for Scottish Labour to re-discover themselves, find some new talent, drop the anti-Tory line and get positive about Scotland. Another 5 years in opposition is what they need.

Indeed. However I'm not sure the Labour party in Scotland has any idea of what they actually stand for, no matter what they would do back in power. Their manifesto looks pretty weak to me, full of new Champions of this and agencies for that along with rather strange top down targets on numbers of apprenticeships etc...all without any costings or indications of just how it could be afforded no matter implemented.

[hibsbollah]

Calvino makes some good points, its refreshing to see some positive claims for competence instead of the constant negative campaigning thats characterised the early stages of this election. I'll be looking for something inspirational over the next few weeks from someone, anyone. The new John Smith and Donald Dewar might be about to emerge, although i havent seen much evidence of it yet. The best bit of speaking ive seen/heard so far is from the Scottish Greens michael-stipe lookalike.

[Beefster]

No but equally, for every Iceland, Ireland and Portugal there is a Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland etc.

Size of country does not indicate viability. It's how it runs their affairs that matters.

I think that some of the jubilation amongst those against independence and pointing to those countries is in poor taste.

I suspect that they forget that in a UK situation, the "global" financial disaster brought several of our banks to their knees and is causing a lot of pain. We're far from being out of the woods yet as to whether we can afford it without everything going tits up.

No doubt if that happens, then the argument is a dead rubber and it wouldn't matter either way if we were independent or in a union and we could focus on other areas of contention?

I'll get my party hat out in preparation for the UK's IMF bailout... :wink:

I'm not 'celebrating' anything - just pointing out that the traditional 'look at how well they have done' arguments from the SNP on Ireland and Iceland are invalid now.

I may be wrong but none of the countries that you mention had banks the size of RBS and BoS about to go under. The only argument that I've ever heard about how an independent Scotland would have dealt with them is that they might have been registered in England. That argument is probably true for BoS but I doubt it for RBS.

[hibsbollah]

I'm not 'celebrating' anything - just pointing out that the traditional 'look at how well they have done' arguments from the SNP on Ireland and Iceland are invalid now.

I may be wrong but none of the countries that you mention had banks the size of RBS and BoS about to go under. The only argument that I've ever heard about how an independent Scotland would have dealt with them is that they might have been registered in England. That argument is probably true for BoS but I doubt it for RBS.

I dont think they were ever valid arguments.

'That wee country next door is independent and not poor, so we should be independent too' was a dense argument from the SNP.

Equally dense as the counterargument; 'that wee country next door is independent and is now an economic basketcase, so we should stay part of the UK'.

The truth is, no one knows the exact economic implications of independence. Its pure guesswork.

[bighairyfaeleith]

I'm not 'celebrating' anything - just pointing out that the traditional 'look at how well they have done' arguments from the SNP on Ireland and Iceland are invalid now.

I may be wrong but none of the countries that you mention had banks the size of RBS and BoS about to go under. The only argument that I've ever heard about how an independent Scotland would have dealt with them is that they might have been registered in England. That argument is probably true for BoS but I doubt it for RBS.

Thing is though, there is no guarantee that RBS would have got to be so big in an independent Scotland. Not saying we would have regulated ourselves better but I wonder if they would have had the same opportunites for growth as a scottish bank as opposed to a british bank.

Like Hibsbollah said, it's all guesswork and both arguments are basically pants.

[steakbake]

I'm not 'celebrating' anything - just pointing out that the traditional 'look at how well they have done' arguments from the SNP on Ireland and Iceland are invalid now.

I may be wrong but none of the countries that you mention had banks the size of RBS and BoS about to go under. The only argument that I've ever heard about how an independent Scotland would have dealt with them is that they might have been registered in England. That argument is probably true for BoS but I doubt it for RBS.

But it is a bit of a pointless argument. Our banks collapsed in the Union. So as is said, any debate really is hypothetical.

Arguably (also hypothetically), our banks might not have become so large and exposed if they were not HQ'd in the irresponsibly under-regulated UK banking sector? The UK's rules got these banks into trouble (in addition to their own handling of things), not "Scotland" as a country.

Conceivably, the issue might never have come about if we weren't part of the Union... though if granny had baws, she'd be grandad.

[Beefster]

Thing is though, there is no guarantee that RBS would have got to be so big in an independent Scotland. Not saying we would have regulated ourselves better but I wonder if they would have had the same opportunites for growth as a scottish bank as opposed to a british bank.

Like Hibsbollah said, it's all guesswork and both arguments are basically pants.


But it is a bit of a pointless argument. Our banks collapsed in the Union. So as is said, any debate really is hypothetical.

Arguably (also hypothetically), our banks might not have become so large and exposed if they were not HQ'd in the irresponsibly under-regulated UK banking sector? The UK's rules got these banks into trouble (in addition to their own handling of things), not "Scotland" as a country.

Conceivably, the issue might never have come about if we weren't part of the Union... though if granny had baws, she'd be grandad.

I'm not sure that "Independence might stunt the growth of our businesses" is the best selling point!

I also find it hard to believe that an independent Scotland would be tougher on regulation (or tax for that matter) than the UK without driving everyone off elsewhere.

Anyway, just to clarify, I'll probably be voting for the SNP in next month's Holyrood election!

[steakbake]

I'm not sure that "Independence might stunt the growth of our businesses" is the best selling point!

I also find it hard to believe that an independent Scotland would be tougher on regulation (or tax for that matter) than the UK without driving everyone off elsewhere.

Anyway, just to clarify, I'll probably be voting for the SNP in next month's Holyrood election!

I think the example showed that unsustainable growth is not desirable in any situation. And I take your point - there is nothing to say that Scotland would not have had the same very relaxed approach which got us to this stage, or on the other side of the coin, that being over-regulated would make doing business in Scotland undesirable.

I'll be voting SNP as well, but more as a because their goal of independence is my preferred constitutional settlement.

Horses for courses etc....

[RyeSloan]

I dont think they were ever valid arguments.

'That wee country next door is independent and not poor, so we should be independent too' was a dense argument from the SNP.

Equally dense as the counterargument; 'that wee country next door is independent and is now an economic basketcase, so we should stay part of the UK'.

The truth is, no one knows the exact economic implications of independence. Its pure guesswork.

True but when Salmond was talking up the Arc of prosperity it was quite clear he was advocating those countries approach to growth...therefore it is quite easy to imagine what his independent Scotland would have looked like in terms of bank regulation etc: Just like Ireland and Iceland.

It's also very true to say the size of the UK economy has allowed the bank bail outs to be a (qualified) success...it's quite clear that an independent Scotland could not have completed such rescues without many years of accumulating sovereign wealth fund reserves.

Ergo it's not guesswork to imagine what would have happened in an independent Scotland ruled by the SNP..we would have went the same way as Ireland and Iceland.

That said I am more than open to hearing just what the economic case is now for an independent Scotland...sadly a worked example with detail is the last thing the SNP will bring to the table, they have had long enough to do so but clearly don't have the desire (or maybe the vision) to spell out exactly what they consider the future of the nation would look like when independent.

None of which really relates direclty to the Scottish Parly elections but maybe shows just how shallow the SNP can be when approaching the big issues but with less than 4 weeks to go it's pleasing to see the SNP will finally publish their manifesto tomorrow

[discman]

But it is a bit of a pointless argument. Our banks collapsed in the Union. So as is said, any debate really is hypothetical.

Arguably (also hypothetically), our banks might not have become so large and exposed if they were not HQ'd in the irresponsibly under-regulated UK banking sector? The UK's rules got these banks into trouble (in addition to their own handling of things), not "Scotland" as a country.

Conceivably, the issue might never have come about if we weren't part of the Union... though if granny had baws, she'd be grandad.


There is nothing our banks could have done or any political party to avoid the consequnce of what happened to the fianancial institutions in USA,


The fiasco of the subprime mortgage market which in 2007 was valued at $1.3 trillion and the repealing of the Glass/ Steagall act in 1999 resulted in an American fianancial collapse and subsequent European contagion.


People were greedy and it will happen again and I dont care whose in charge of Scotland/UK there is nothing they will be able to do to stop it! :greengrin

[One Day Soon]

Well done sir.

Spot on.

Cobblers. Blind repeating of the received wisdom completely unsupported by the objective facts.

[sKipper]

Which objective facts are they then ?

Can we not agree with someone without firstly meeting your stringent criteria ?

FFS :rolleyes:

[marinello59]

I think that some of the jubilation amongst those against independence and pointing to those countries is in poor taste.


I must have missed the street parties when Iceland went bust. Did Kerry Katona do the catering?
Actually I missed the jubilation altogether. Hands up, who celebrated?

[One Day Soon]

[QUOTE=Calvino;2778668]An excellent point to bring up. While whether you agree or disagree with the party politics behind it (I personally agree that releasing a dying man not from this country was a morally correct decision) it provides an excellent counterargument to the theory I hear from undecided voters that an independent Scotland could not hold its own on a world stage. Well, if standing up to America isn't 'holding our own on the world stage' then nothing is.

Nice for the victim's relatives that Megrahi's release was basically a photo-op for independence. By the way, how did his funeral go?

I find this a funny example for the other parties to put forward as a criticism of the SNP. If it has been made patently clear to you that a proposed bill will not get through parliament, are you supposed to waste parliamentary time just to 'make a point?' If your answer is yes then you undervalue our parliament and will no doubt use the same waste of time to criticise the SNP, but if your answer is no then there is no criticism there at all.

Yeah let's spend a fortune of taxpayer's money on the 'National Conversation' - an extended advertising campaign for independence paid for out of our pockets - but not even air the issue in an afternoon's debate in Parliament. This SNP government has been obsessed with spin from day one and the bottom line here was that Salmond and the SNP could not bear to be seen to lose the argument or the vote on independence.

Iceland has survived. They have under 6.2% the population of Scotland and less GDP p/c than us. Yet they have managed to survive, the people still seem to be there and although times are economically very tough the quality of life of the people is not much different to here in Scotland. Iceland took on the debts of other countries and has, in the last few days, had to answer these questions. However, while in this country we are starting to clear some of the expense the UK took on with cuts to public funding, in Iceland the President has stated that "that before ordinary people are asked to pay for failed banks, the assets inside the estate of these banks should be used to pay the subs" which I think is a far better way to go about recovery. It is also interesting to note that the review of the banks published in the last few days suggests that it is not in our best interests to bail out the banks, but to instruct the banks to have 'emergency resources' as such in case of hard times. Unfortunately we don't know how the banks would exactly be legislated in the case of an independent Scotland, a criticism I am happy to place on the SNP but I would suggest that the ludicrous tolerance seen in Westminster would not have taken place here.

These countries are now owned not by their own people but by the IMF and/or the EU. Salmond crowed for years that an independent Scotland should follow the examples of Ireland and Iceland in the so called 'Arc of Propserity'. Had we done so we would now be bust. Spectacularly wrong economic judgement on his part. So now that's Megrahi and the 'Arc of Prosperity'.

I voted Lib Dems in the last UK election without even knowing of Salmond's endorsement. As did he, I felt that the Lib Dems were best placed to be in a power holding position in London and that, as they were of most similar ethos to ourselves then it would be worth punishing underachieving Labour and Tory MPs by electing a Lib Dem in their place. I struggle to see how that is a criticism. With 20/20 hindsight I would have put my vote nowhere near their box but at the time it seemed a sensible and honest thing to do, and the fact that many Lib Dems never saw that coming either speaks volumes. Maybe if Labour got a few more seats and were able to form majority coalition with the Lib Dems you might not feel so strongly resentful of them? :wink: Of course I don't feel good that they're couried up to the Tories but I don't feel that the outcome of the UK election can be a criticism of the SNP.

Salmond told English voters they should vote for for the Lib Dems. The same Lib Dems currently propping up a Tory Party which is simultaneously about to implement cuts that will make Thatcher's reign look like a tea party and which in England is launching an attack threatening the future of the NHS. This is not a punter we are talking about, this is someone who wants to be First Minister but who time and again makes exactly the wrong choices. Anyone who watches the Lib Dems knows that where they get into power they screw things up - because they are fundamentally opportunistic in their own interests.

Still, great call from Salmond. The Lib Dems give the Tories a guaranteed four year term to trash public services way beyond what's needed to address the deficit, in exchange for a referendum on a new voting system that isn't even one the Lib Dems themselves advocate and which they will probably lose.

Whichever way you look at it, 84 out of 94 election pledges met is fantastic, let alone in a minority government. And the lack of scandal compared to our predecessors speaks volumes about the competency of the ministers. Although, referencing your earlier post, this all means nothing as some people will never be persuaded, but I appreciate the chance to try and challenge some of your views.

Surely the same minority government that couldn't win a parliamentary vote on an independence referendum also couldn't have done anything else on its own? Shouldn't you be congratulating all parties on anything achieved?

No scandal? Really? How is Mr Megrahi? Or how about this:

"It was revealed on Thursday morning that guests at an SNP fundraiser in Glasgow had paid £11,000 to lunch with Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon at the Scottish Parliament restaurant.
And on Thursday afternoon, a Parliament Spokesperson confirmed that Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeon had written to Holyrood authorities to seek clarification. A spokesperson said that a report would now be prepared.

Its statement said: "The policy on the use of parliamentary resources states that parliamentary resources are provided by the SPCB to support Members with their parliamentary duties.
"These resources, which include the Members restaurant, must not be used for any other purpose, including any significant party political purposes.
"We understand that the relevant Members are concerned over this matter, and will be writing to the parliamentary authorities to explain their position.
"Once officials have established the facts, the SPCB will receive and consider a report."
MSPs are banned from using the "parliament campus" for party fundraising activities. The SNP insisted the lunches were within the rules because the auction was held at a Glasgow restaurant.
Lunch with Ms Sturgeon raised £2000 while someone paid £9000 to dine with Mr Salmond. The cash is set to go towards the campaign of Osama Saeed, the party's candidate in the Glasgow Central seat at Westminster.
The party says it has broken no rules because the fundraiser was held outwith the Holyrood "campus" in a Glasgow restaurant.
However, opposition politicians have accused the party of "cash for access" arguing that MSPs would normally only host dinners at the parliament when they are raising money for charity."
February 2010, STV


Or what about the Transport Minister having to resign? The SNP government that wants independence so that it can run its own army, navy and economy couldn't even keep the M8 open.


And how is that constituent for whom Nicola Sturgeon wrote that bizarre character reference:

"THERE are several dozen people in Edinburgh who have a personal interest in the latest row to hit Holyrood.

When Nicola Sturgeon wrote a letter to a judge on behalf of her constituent Abdul Rauf, she was standing up for a man who a decade and a half ago stole money from 44 local people.

He did so from a position of trust, using his position in a Tollcross Post Office to forge signatures on almost 800 benefit claims. He was found guilty of fraud worth £60,000 and sentenced to four years in prison.

It's not just those 44 victims of Rauf, or any of the thousands of customers whose money he handled, who will now wonder how he deserved the support of Scotland's Deputy First Minister.

Ms Sturgeon has been attacked from all sides for her letter to the court which asked that the convicted fraudster not be jailed after he admitted another £80,000 in benefit fraud – and rightly so.

The SNP has worked hard to justify the health secretary's intervention – a spin campaign co-ordinated by civil servants paid by taxpayers to work for the government, not MSPs.

But the defence has been unconvincing and relies on a very woolly interpretation of the ministerial code of conduct. The important part, skipped by Alex Salmond in his own robust defence of his deputy, says ministers must use their own judgement when deciding whether or not it is appropriate to intervene on behalf of a constituent."
February 2010, Edinburgh Evening News



QUOTE]

So, far from all rosy in the garden really.

[One Day Soon]

Which objective facts are they then ?

Can we not agree with someone without firstly meeting your stringent criteria ?

FFS :rolleyes:

Well evidently you can. If you regard facts as 'stringent criteria' as though that's something unreasonable the politicians knocking on your door are going to love you.

Parroting a nice pile of politically motivated assertions not backed up by reality does not make an argument.

[One Day Soon]

I must have missed the street parties when Iceland went bust. Did Kerry Katona do the catering?
Actually I missed the jubilation altogether. Hands up, who celebrated?

I think quite a lot of the bunting is being recycled for royal wedding street parties.

[sKipper]

Well evidently you can. If you regard facts as 'stringent criteria' as though that's something unreasonable the politicians knocking on your door are going to love you.

Parroting a nice pile of politically motivated assertions not backed up by reality does not make an argument.

Just because you don't happen to agree with them doesn't mean they're not backed up by reality or a decent argument. :rolleyes:

[lucky]

Wee Eck caught telling lies again. The man is a great actor and showman but increasingly dodgy as a politician.

SNP MANIFESTO LAUNCH OVERSHADOWED BY PARTY REFUSING TO PUBLISH LIST OF "84 HEADLINE" MANIFESTO ACHIEVEMENTS

- SNP CLAIM 84 OUT OF 94 "HEADLINE" COMMITMENTS MET, YET REFUSE TO EVIDENCE CLAIM
- SNP PROMISED LIST WOULD BE PUBLISHED BEFORE SNP MANIFESTO LAUNCH – BUT NOW REFUSE

Scottish Labour today challenged the SNP to publish a full list of the much-vanuted 84 out of 94 “headline” manifesto commitments the party claims to have delivered in the last four years - something the SNP promised to do before the publication of their next manifesto tomorrow.

The claim was repeated as recently as last week in the SNP election broadcast in which Alex Salmond declared: "in four years we've met 84 out of 94 manifesto commitments." On 31 March an SNP spokesperson told journalists that the party "will be delighted to publish the 84 headline manifesto achievements and the 94 total in the run-up to our manifesto launch".

However, the SNP have now refused and it now appears unlikely to be published. Many of the SNP's most famous promises from 2007 - abolishing council tax, smaller class sizes, dumping student debt, grants for first time buyers - have all been broken. Scottish Labour today issued a fully evidenced file of 100 of the SNP’s broken promises.

Scottish Labour’s Deputy Leader, Johann Lamont, said:

"Refusing to publish a list they said they would is a desperate evasion technique.

"They can't even be up front about their own record.

"Alex Salmond has been caught out trying to conceal the truth about his tax plans that will hammer families and now he is refusing to public their supposed list of achievements.

"He is twisting and turning to evade facing the uncomfortable facts that under the SNP youth unemployment and child poverty is up, but teachers and classroom assistants are down.

"For months they have refused to publish this mythical list - and now the cover-up continues.

"If the SNP has anything to hide, they shouldn't fear publishing this list but clearly they are clearly terrified of it.

"They have already pushed back publication of their manifesto to weeks after everyone else and are have been frantically rewriting it.

"Their only big idea is independence and it is a total turn-off to most families.

"People expect politicians do what they say, not spend their time trying to wriggle out of it."


The SNP have asserted on numerous occasions that they have delivered 84 out of 94 manifesto pledges.

The claim was repeated by the SNP as recently as last week in the SNP election broadcast in which Alex Salmond declares: "In four years we've met 84 out of 94 manifesto commitments. That's not bad."

http://www2.snp.org/ppb

BUT…

On 31 March 2011 an SNP spokesperson stated: "We will be delighted to publish the 84 headline manifesto achievements and the 94 total in the run-up to our manifesto launch as planned…”

http://news.stv.tv/election-2011/240351-labour-attack-snp-on-broken-election-pledges/

HOWEVER…

Despite their promises, no such list has ever been published by the SNP.

What is clear, is that the SNP have broken more than 100 of the promises they made back in May 2007.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Wee Eck caught telling lies again. The man is a great actor and showman but increasingly dodgy as a politician.

SNP MANIFESTO LAUNCH OVERSHADOWED BY PARTY REFUSING TO PUBLISH LIST OF "84 HEADLINE" MANIFESTO ACHIEVEMENTS

- SNP CLAIM 84 OUT OF 94 "HEADLINE" COMMITMENTS MET, YET REFUSE TO EVIDENCE CLAIM
- SNP PROMISED LIST WOULD BE PUBLISHED BEFORE SNP MANIFESTO LAUNCH – BUT NOW REFUSE

Scottish Labour today challenged the SNP to publish a full list of the much-vanuted 84 out of 94 “headline” manifesto commitments the party claims to have delivered in the last four years - something the SNP promised to do before the publication of their next manifesto tomorrow.

The claim was repeated as recently as last week in the SNP election broadcast in which Alex Salmond declared: "in four years we've met 84 out of 94 manifesto commitments." On 31 March an SNP spokesperson told journalists that the party "will be delighted to publish the 84 headline manifesto achievements and the 94 total in the run-up to our manifesto launch".

However, the SNP have now refused and it now appears unlikely to be published. Many of the SNP's most famous promises from 2007 - abolishing council tax, smaller class sizes, dumping student debt, grants for first time buyers - have all been broken. Scottish Labour today issued a fully evidenced file of 100 of the SNP’s broken promises.

Scottish Labour’s Deputy Leader, Johann Lamont, said:

"Refusing to publish a list they said they would is a desperate evasion technique.

"They can't even be up front about their own record.

"Alex Salmond has been caught out trying to conceal the truth about his tax plans that will hammer families and now he is refusing to public their supposed list of achievements.

"He is twisting and turning to evade facing the uncomfortable facts that under the SNP youth unemployment and child poverty is up, but teachers and classroom assistants are down.

"For months they have refused to publish this mythical list - and now the cover-up continues.

"If the SNP has anything to hide, they shouldn't fear publishing this list but clearly they are clearly terrified of it.

"They have already pushed back publication of their manifesto to weeks after everyone else and are have been frantically rewriting it.

"Their only big idea is independence and it is a total turn-off to most families.

"People expect politicians do what they say, not spend their time trying to wriggle out of it."


The SNP have asserted on numerous occasions that they have delivered 84 out of 94 manifesto pledges.

The claim was repeated by the SNP as recently as last week in the SNP election broadcast in which Alex Salmond declares: "In four years we've met 84 out of 94 manifesto commitments. That's not bad."

http://www2.snp.org/ppb

BUT…

On 31 March 2011 an SNP spokesperson stated: "We will be delighted to publish the 84 headline manifesto achievements and the 94 total in the run-up to our manifesto launch as planned…”

http://news.stv.tv/election-2011/240351-labour-attack-snp-on-broken-election-pledges/

HOWEVER…

Despite their promises, no such list has ever been published by the SNP.

What is clear, is that the SNP have broken more than 100 of the promises they made back in May 2007.

Cheers Iain:thumbsup:

[marinello59]

Wee Eck caught telling lies again. The man is a great actor and showman but increasingly dodgy as a politician.

.

More a case of SNP use spin and deceit just like any other Political party. Actually they have done quite well with this one because many have taken the 84 out of 99 line at face value and their headline manifesto pledges that have been broken have largely been forgotten about. Labour will need to up their games on the spin front I think. The Tories have attempted honesty about the economic realities so obviously won't get many votes and the Lib Dems don't do spin, just blatant lies.
Vote for none of the above. :greengrin

[Beefster]

Wee Eck caught telling lies again.

Two words - Iraq war.

Spin and lies are not exclusive to any particular political party.

[MountcastleHibs]

Labour having a go at a party for spin :faf::faf:

Hypocrisy oozes from every angle with these clowns.

'Wee Eck' and his cronies are far more professional and are better statesmen/women than the amateurs currently representing Labour are or ever will be. Even with all the 'lies' and 'spin'. I really do fear if Gray and 'his team' win this election.

You couldn't make it up :not worth. Maybe Labour forget the Iraq War, David Kelly, the ruining of the pension's system in 1997. I could go on, but I don't have the time or the willingness too. To quote 'wee Eck', more Labour hypocrisy.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Labour having a go at a party for spin :faf::faf:

Hypocrisy oozes from every angle with these clowns.



very laughable :agree: although i believe when big capital letters are used it makes it look even worse :greengrin do you think non-labour voters should start putting up links about the lies labour politicians have told in the past/present ?? have we really got all day ? :LOL::blah:

p.s. will jim devine be allowed a vote from his little prison cell ?:devil:


p.s. mon the nats

mon wee eck

mon the continuation of frozen cooncil tax

and

mon the windfarms :greengrin

[RyeSloan]

very laughable :agree: although i believe when big capital letters are used it makes it look even worse :greengrin do you think non-labour voters should start putting up links about the lies labour politicians have told in the past/present ?? have we really got all day ? :LOL::blah:

p.s. will jim devine be allowed a vote from his little prison cell ?:devil:


p.s. mon the nats

mon wee eck

mon the continuation of frozen cooncil tax

and

mon the windfarms :greengrin

Fact is thought we have our governing party saying they enacted 90% of their manifesto commitments but yet are now refusing to evidence it, that’s sounds slightly more than spin to me, it sounds like outright lies.

I asked in a previous post for a list of all the achievements the SNP have had in the last 4 years that has made people so convinced that they have done a good job…like their 84 out of 99 list that seems rather conspicuous by its absence as well.

[Calvin]

Fact is thought we have our governing party saying they enacted 90% of their manifesto commitments but yet are now refusing to evidence it, that’s sounds slightly more than spin to me, it sounds like outright lies.

I asked in a previous post for a list of all the achievements the SNP have had in the last 4 years that has made people so convinced that they have done a good job…like their 84 out of 99 list that seems rather conspicuous by its absence as well.
We have frozen Council Tax for four years, saving an average family more than £300.

We’ve slashed or abolished business rates for some 80,000 small firms and local employers, protecting jobs in tough times.

We’ve put 1,000 more police on Scotland’s streets, helping drive crime down to its lowest level for 32 years.

We’ve abolished prescription charges, saving people with long-term illnesses an average of more than £180.

The National Conversation launched in 2007 revived progress on the constitutional debate in Scotland, and paves the way for an independence referendum in the next parliament.

We’ve restored free higher education by ruling out upfront fees and abolishing the £2,300 graduate endowment - a back door tuition fee.

We’re delivering a record-breaking 25,000 modern apprenticeships in the year ahead – a two-thirds increase on 2007.

We’ve transformed Scotland into a world leader in green energy, consenting a record 39 new renewable projects since we came to office – more than double the previous administration.

Our £10 million Saltire Prize for marine energy innovation is establishing Scotland at the forefront of this global renewable technology.

We’ve removed tolls on the Forth and Tay Bridges, saving commuters £184 a year on crossing the Tay, and £207 a year on crossing the Forth.

We’ve kept healthcare local. That means A&E units have been saved, children’s cancer services and neurosurgery units protected, and maternity units kept open.

We have provided vital support for the staging of two of the world’s greatest sporting events here in Scotland in 2014 – the Commonwealth games in Glasgow and the Ryder Cup at Gleneagles. This includes the building of a new National Indoor Sports Arena and the Sir Chris Hoy Velodrome.

We’ve started 24,000 social sector homes since coming into office in 2007 – that’s an average of 115 new houses every week.

We’ve helped some of the world’s poorest people by doubling the international development budget and protecting that aid from UK cuts.

We’ve delivered smaller government, including fewer ministers and departments, saving more than £4 million over the parliamentary term.

We’ve provided funding to secure the Dundee V&A museum, the new Bannockburn visitor centre, and the creation of the Robert Burns Birthplace Museum in Ayrshire.

We’ve provided extra funding for Scotland’s veteran charities, and ensured our ex-service men and women receive priority treatment in the NHS and other services.

We’ve established Creative Scotland as a single, national body for the arts, culture and creative industries.

We’ve protected spending in the NHS with an extra £1.2 billion to health boards over the last four years to safeguard frontline services – and we will continue to protect the health budget.

We’ve abolished hidden waiting lists, and reduced hospital waiting lists to a record low.

We’ve increased the number of nurses, doctors and dentists working in the NHS – and we are reducing the number of senior managers by a quarter.

There are 1,000 more cleaners in the health service, helping ensure infection in Scottish hospitals is now at an all-time low.

We’ve set up a tough new inspectorate to ensure that our hospitals are clean.

We’ve banned irresponsible alcohol discounts in supermarkets and off licences.

We’ve made sure our older generation is properly cared for by increasing payments for free personal and nursing care for the first time since it was introduced.

We’ve delivered on our ambitious cancer target which means treatment begins within one month of a decision to treat.

We are building the £840 million new South Glasgow Hospital.

We’ve cut the risk from cervical cancer for the next generation of young women by providing the HPV vaccine for girls in S2.

One million more Scots are registered with NHS dentists under the SNP Government.

We’ve delivered a new dental school in Aberdeen.

We’ve frozen bonuses to NHS consultants.

We’ve made sure more GP practices are open in the evenings and at weekends.

We’ve abolished charges at all NHS-run hospital car parks.

We’ve introduced a Patient Rights Act to provide new statutory rights for all those using the health service.

We’ve given the public a direct say in the NHS by introducing pilot elections in two health boards.

We’re working for a healthier Scotland by raising the legal age for buying tobacco to 18.

We’ve delivered more than 40,000 new heating systems and helped Scots on low incomes to reduce energy costs and keep their homes warm.

We’ve enabled councils to build new homes for the first time in years, providing funding for 3,300 new council houses.

We’ve reformed the Right to Buy in order to protect social housing for rent.

We’ve helped over 5,300 people buy their first home with our shared equity scheme.

We’ve helped 10,000 pensioners and families secure £1.6 million in savings through our benefits health check.

We’ve invested £17 million in the establishment of world class multi-sport facilities at Aberdeen Sports Village, Toryglen Regional Indoor Football Training Centre, and Ravenscraig Sports Centre.

We’ve invested £7.5 million to improve our medal hopes in 2012 and 2014 with World Class facilities for training for our elite and emerging athletes.

We’ve delivered the smallest average primary school class sizes ever, and set a new legal limit of 25 pupils for primary one.

Since the last election, 330 schools will have been built or refurbished - 80 more than planned by Labour.

We have lifted over 130,000 pupils out of crumbling school buildings.

We’ve raised standards in schools by introducing the new Curriculum for Excellence.

We’ve increased funding for college bursaries to a record £89 million, supporting a record 42,000 students.

We’ve expanded free nursery education, benefitting 100,000 children.

We’ve given legal protection to rural schools, preventing unnecessary closure.

We’re helping less well-off youngsters by continuing the £30-a-week Educational Maintenance Allowance – now scrapped in England.

We’ve introduced tough new qualifications – the Scottish Baccalaureate – in science and languages, challenging the brightest pupils to achieve more.

We’ve helped 250,000 people expand their learning with Individual Learning Accounts to pay for training courses.

We’ve extended free school meals to 55,000 children from lower income families.

We’ve helped home-grown talent perform in Edinburgh with a £6 million Expo Fund for the City’s festivals.

We’ve reformed the unique and successful Children’s Hearing System to make it fit for the future.

We’ve made sure children who need additional support to learn get the help they need with new laws and guidance for all schools.

More than 2,600 primary children are now able to learn in dedicated Gaelic language classes, up by a fifth since 2007.

We’ve protected more than 15,000 jobs in Scotland during the recession, including by accelerating spending on nearly £350 million of public projects as part of our comprehensive Economic Recovery Plan.

We’ve put Scotland on course to exceed our interim target of 31 per cent of Scotland’s electricity from clean green renewable sources this year. And we’re on track for 80 per cent by 2020.

The approval we’ve given for a desperately needed new Forth Road Bridge will ease congestion, cut journey times, boost business and secure some 3,000 jobs.

We’ve delivered an extra £2.3 billion for jobs and public services by driving up efficiency in government – far exceeding the target of 1.5% efficiency savings.

We’ve established a £10 million national life sciences institute in Dundee.

We’ve funded improvements to major roads across the country including the M8, the M80, the A9, A90 and A96. We’re also completing the M74 - bringing new jobs and helping local regeneration.

We’ve protected Scotland’s pensioners from UK cuts by guaranteeing free bus travel, and we are extending the scheme to injured veterans.

We’ve successfully completed one of the largest rail projects in Scotland for decades, with the opening of the Airdrie-Bathgate rail line.

We’ve helped tourism and the local economy in the Western Isles through a pilot scheme to reduce ferry fares.

We’ve funded improvements in rail services and journey times from Inverness, Aberdeen, Dundee and Perth to Glasgow and Edinburgh.

We’ve invested £2.4 billion in improving the nation’s water infrastructure, and published proposals to boost the role of Scottish Water, publicly owned for the public benefit.

We’re on track to slash the number of quangos by more than a quarter.

[Calvin]

We’ve established Public Contracts Scotland, a website that makes it easier than ever for small businesses to access government contacts.

We’ve invested £2 million in small post offices, helping 49 businesses expand and stay open.

We have established the Scottish Investment Fund to help grassroots business projects get up and running.

We’ve reformed Scottish Enterprise so that it focuses on growth sectors, growth markets and growth companies – boosting key industries such as renewables, financial services and life sciences.

We delivered Scotland’s first ever year of Homecoming in 2009, encouraging more than 95,000 visitors to travel to Scotland and exceeding its target by generating £53.7 million in additional tourism revenue.

Violent crime is down by over a fifth since the SNP came to office, with nearly 3,000 fewer violent offences last year.

We’ve used over £30 million seized from criminal behaviour to invest in community projects for over 300,000 Scottish kids.

Fear of crime has fallen – and the risk of becoming a victim of crime continues to fall, and is lower than south of the Border.

Knife crime is down by 30 per cent since this government took office, but we must and will step up efforts to keep driving this figure down.

We’ve delivered faster justice, with three-quarters of cases completed within six months – compared to only two-thirds in 2006/07. And criminals are being locked up for longer, with prison sentences at their longest for a decade.

We’ve put in place new measures to cut the cycle of re-offending with tough community punishment.

We’ve reformed the laws on sexual offences to make it easier to prosecute people for serious sexual attacks.

We’ve increased funding for Victim Support Scotland, and our victim notification scheme is helping people affected by crime.

We’re tackling Scotland’s drug problem head-on through our national drugs commission, the new national drugs strategy, and 20 per cent more funding to help people recover from addiction.

We’ve provided parents with more information on dangerous paedophiles to protect children in local communities.

We’ve given the go ahead to a new prison for the North East of Scotland, as part of our prison building programme.

We are building the Gartcosh crime campus, and have established the Serious and Organised Crime Taskforce.

We’ve provided Citizens Advice Scotland with extra funding to provide advice and support to families facing debt problems.

We are reforming the law on Double Jeopardy, to help ensure that the guilty do not escape justice.

We’ve introduced world leading Climate Change legislation to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 42 per cent by the end of the decade.

We’ve secured £1.6 billion of investment for Scotland’s rural economy through the Scottish Rural Development Programme.

Scotland is clean as well as green - under an SNP Government, recycling is at its highest level ever.

We have developed a non-nuclear energy strategy for Scotland, including working with partners to progress the concept of a European Super Grid to export our surplus power.

We’ve promoted Scotland’s top quality produce – sales of Scottish food and drink have increased by 30 per cent since the SNP came to office.

We’ve helped make our communities safer from flooding with investment in flood defences and new measures in the Flooding Act.

We’ve backed consumers with a continued ban on planting GM crops in Scotland.

We’ve developed Conservation Credits, catch quotas and on-board CCTV, working with fishermen to develop and implement fisheries policies right for the 21st century.

We are the first administration to introduce a scheme dedicated to encouraging new entrants into farming, worth £10 million.

We’ve delivered the Wildlife and Natural Environment Bill, toughening up wildlife crime measures and protecting Scotland’s environment as one of our greatest assets.

We’ve passed a Crofting Reform Act, tackling absenteeism, neglect and speculation to protect crofting for future generations.

[hibsbollah]

The SNP...they dont half like to blow their own trumpet.

[steakbake]

The SNP...they dont half like to blow their own trumpet.

They do indeed, but there's seemingly more substance in Calvino's post(s) than OneDay's party press releases.

[marinello59]

You've got to hand it to the SNP. A whole generation can now cut AND paste. :greengrin

[RyeSloan]

The SNP...they dont half like to blow their own trumpet.

Calvino, Tis a nice list and glad someone posted what the SNP claim to be theirs....if I can be bothered I might even reply on each point...it is a bit of a ramble though, would have been good to see key legislation and interventions that have fundamentally changed the country, not just a list of everything that has happened in the last 4 years, just how much of this would have happened anyway is the key thing here.

More specifically the thing that really gets me and while norm for all parties the SNP seem especially good at it is the SNP seem to be taking direct responsibility and praise for every succesful action by the NHS in Scotland or any other ogranisation that may have some public funding and even some that don't.

Same with knife crime etc...taking all the credit for this is surely rude to say the least...

They also forget to mention Scotland still has higher unemployment than the national average...along with slower growth...what steps have been taken to tackle this?

[Mibbes Aye]

They do indeed, but there's seemingly more substance in Calvino's post(s) than OneDay's party press releases.

I wouldn't be too sure.

I've only looked at the first ten of these so-called achievements.

Two haven't actually been achieved.

Two are massive failures against what was promised in their manifesto!

One is debatable and anyway the SNP tried to backtrack on it, but the Tories forced them into doing it!

One is merely continuining a policy that Labour introduced!

Then we have the contradiction of one claiming we're at the forefront of green energy while another encourages car use!

And then we have one where well-off folk get something for free. I know how much controversy that's caused on here :greengrin

Still, at least we've had the National Conversation :rolleyes:

I agree with M59, there are inherent dangers in cut'n'paste :greengrin

There are two things I suspect are not in this long list of "achievements".

The two biggest things the SNP promised -a referendum on independence; and the introduction of Local Income Tax.

Mention of them would certainly be an achievement :agree:

[Beefster]

I wouldn't be too sure.

I've only looked at the first ten of these so-called achievements.

Two haven't actually been achieved.

Two are massive failures against what was promised in their manifesto!

One is debatable and anyway the SNP tried to backtrack on it, but the Tories forced them into doing it!

One is merely continuining a policy that Labour introduced!

Then we have the contradiction of one claiming we're at the forefront of green energy while another encourages car use!

And then we have one where well-off folk get something for free. I know how much controversy that's caused on here :greengrin

Still, at least we've had the National Conversation :rolleyes:

I agree with M59, there are inherent dangers in cut'n'paste :greengrin

There are two things I suspect are not in this long list of "achievements".

The two biggest things the SNP promised -a referendum on independence; and the introduction of Local Income Tax.

Mention of them would certainly be an achievement :agree:

I reckon that they are probably counting those in the ones that were not delivered.

I'm not sure that you should be mocking the 'National Conversation' though. It seems fairly similar in sentiment to your leader's blank book and 'listening exercise'.

[Mibbes Aye]

I reckon that they are probably counting those in the ones that were not delivered.

I'm not sure that you should be mocking the 'National Conversation' though. It seems fairly similar in sentiment to your leader's blank book and 'listening exercise'.

Who mocked the National Conversation? If anything's being mocked it's the fact that a bunch of achievements were listed that are either untrue or failures or non-achievements or contradictions.

And the one that I listed as a genuine achievement involved a party whose whole reason for being is to secure independence, saying it wanted an impartial chat whether we should have independence! I can see why some might mock that now you mention it :agree:

On another note, a while back I'm sure I recall you posting you were a paying member of the Conservatives. I might be imagining that but I'm fairly certain. Is that right?

I'm not going to go back and check, I just wondered if the SNP were getting the Tories voting for them. It would make sense........

[steakbake]

I reckon that they are probably counting those in the ones that were not delivered.

I'm not sure that you should be mocking the 'National Conversation' though. It seems fairly similar in sentiment to your leader's blank book and 'listening exercise'.

I'm not sure Ed blew public money on it though? Just his party's cash, though I'm sure there's a few bills which were picked up by the tax payer on the way.

Not sure I get the point of a national conversation particularly. That's what campaigning during the referendum will be for, I would have imagined. Besides, from what I read of it, it only really reached the people who live and breath each day in the binary world of Scottish political debate; the "cybernats" and their die-hard unionist opponents (I'm not sure if they have a sinister nickname but I imagine there probably is some kind of catchy name given to them as well).

I think it takes someone with a particular agenda to suggest that the SNP government have not achieved anything constructive in their time in office. Perhaps there are a few pages of the manifesto which had to be pulled out before it was ripped up, but I think that is the reality of minority rule. Labour will find exactly the same should they find themselves in a minority position on 6th May.

I also think that Scottish politics has been marked by some breathtaking hypocrisy over the last few years and the kind of stubborn partisanship which is a very recessive Scottish characteristic. My biggest resentment against an unfulfilled promise is the alcohol pricing plan - overwhelmingly supported by public service professionals, doctors, police, health advisers (and me), but illegal according to the opposition. Although...seemingly not illegal for the UK, Welsh and Northern Irish parliaments to be actively considering bringing in a near identical model. Yet apparently it's made out to be the biggest breach of international law since the Iraq invasion if the SNP exec were to try to bring it in.

I confidently predict that a near identical plan will be passed should Labour form the next government.

[Beefster]

Who mocked the National Conversation? If anything's being mocked it's the fact that a bunch of achievements were listed that are either untrue or failures or non-achievements or contradictions.

And the one that I listed as a genuine achievement involved a party whose whole reason for being is to secure independence, saying it wanted an impartial chat whether we should have independence! I can see why some might mock that now you mention it :agree:

On another note, a while back I'm sure I recall you posting you were a paying member of the Conservatives. I might be imagining that but I'm fairly certain. Is that right?

I'm not going to go back and check, I just wondered if the SNP were getting the Tories voting for them. It would make sense........

I'll be voting SNP in this election in a (likely) vain attempt to oust Iain Gray from his seat. Don't worry though, I'm still a Tory (and they'll be getting my regional vote)!

[steakbake]

I'll be voting SNP in this election in a (likely) vain attempt to oust Iain Gray from his seat. Don't worry though, I'm still a Tory (and they'll be getting my regional vote)!

It's kind of you to try.

Last time I saw Iain Gray was before he lost his Holyrood seat a few years ago. I ran into him wandering around Edinburgh Pentlands on polling day itself. He asked me if I was going to vote for him and I said no, not a chance and suggested that he might be looking through the Scotsman job pages the next day like I would be. "I don't think so some how" was his smug reply. How pleased was I when he lost his seat.... very. Not quite as enjoyable as a Portillo moment, but it was enjoyable.

[Beefster]

It's kind of you to try.

Last time I saw Iain Gray was before he lost his Holyrood seat a few years ago. I ran into him wandering around Edinburgh Pentlands on polling day itself. He asked me if I was going to vote for him and I said no, not a chance and suggested that he might be looking through the Scotsman job pages the next day like I would be. "I don't think so some how" was his smug reply. How pleased was I when he lost his seat.... very. Not quite as enjoyable as a Portillo moment, but it was enjoyable.

I've had dealings with the MPs from Midlothian and East Lothian along with Gray in the last 18 months or so. All Labour, all with vastly different politics to mine.

Gray was, without doubt, the least effective, least professional and least decent of the three by a country mile. The thought of someone of his calibre being First Minister is truly terrifying.

[One Day Soon]

Just because you don't happen to agree with them doesn't mean they're not backed up by reality or a decent argument. :rolleyes:

Aye, why bother to evidence claims when they can just be asserted.

[One Day Soon]

Two words - Iraq war.

Spin and lies are not exclusive to any particular political party.

Two more words - keep up.

This is the Scottish Parliament election and while as a Tory you are clearly desperate to use any line of attack on Labour - including voting for the SNP and talking them up - this is about the offer of the parties in this election and the record of the governing party over the last four years.

[One Day Soon]

Labour having a go at a party for spin :faf::faf:

Hypocrisy oozes from every angle with these clowns.

'Wee Eck' and his cronies are far more professional and are better statesmen/women than the amateurs currently representing Labour are or ever will be. Even with all the 'lies' and 'spin'. I really do fear if Gray and 'his team' win this election.

You couldn't make it up :not worth. Maybe Labour forget the Iraq War, David Kelly, the ruining of the pension's system in 1997. I could go on, but I don't have the time or the willingness too. To quote 'wee Eck', more Labour hypocrisy.


It is highly entertaining watching the Tartan Underpants Brigade pointedly refusing to engage in discussion on anything critical of their glorious leader or their first government's activities and rabidly attacking critics. There's an intolerant Orwellian 'Newspeak' quality to it.

Hypocrisy? The independence party that won't discuss independence.

[One Day Soon]

very laughable :agree: although i believe when big capital letters are used it makes it look even worse :greengrin do you think non-labour voters should start putting up links about the lies labour politicians have told in the past/present ?? have we really got all day ? :LOL::blah:

p.s. will jim devine be allowed a vote from his little prison cell ?:devil:


p.s. mon the nats

mon wee eck

mon the continuation of frozen cooncil tax

and

mon the windfarms :greengrin

Yes. It's not as though the Tartan Underpants Brigade were spinning to the BBC one morning a few weeks ago that a deal had been done between COSLA, the STUC and the Scottish Government that there would be no public sector compulsory redundancies, only to have to recant the whole thing within a couple of hours after the STUC challenged the story and the truth came out that a spin doctor had made it up.

Way to callously play politics with people's livelihoods.

[One Day Soon]

The SNP...they dont half like to blow their own trumpet.

More a case of raking around the music room, bolting together bits of different instruments, calling it a trumpet and then telling everyone to admire the sweet tune when they can't get a note out of it.

[One Day Soon]

They do indeed, but there's seemingly more substance in Calvino's post(s) than OneDay's party press releases.

Really? As far as I can see Calvino's taken the SNP press release and faithfully reprinted it but not engaged with any of the questions posed about Salmond. Megrahi (poor judgement), independence referendum (no judgement allowed), Arc of Prosperity (catastrophic judgement), Lib Dems and Tories (lacking in judgement) and SNP scandals (judged and found wanting).

Perhaps he's been too busy with Megrahi's funeral. Was it a big affair? What's that you say, he's still alive?

Megrahi released on 20th August 2009 on compassionate grounds because he was "about to die". Almost two years later and he's still knocking around.

MacAskill, the SNP's man who released him because he said he was "bound by Scottish values to release him" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean), could end up leaving office as a Minister before Megrahi's terminal illness becomes terminal. But hey, the SNP Ministers are 'statesmen'.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Really? As far as I can see Calvino's taken the SNP press release and faithfully reprinted it but not engaged with any of the questions posed about Salmond. Megrahi (poor judgement), independence referendum (no judgement allowed), Arc of Prosperity (catastrophic judgement), Lib Dems and Tories (lacking in judgement) and SNP scandals (judged and found wanting).

Perhaps he's been too busy with Megrahi's funeral. Was it a big affair? What's that you say, he's still alive?

Megrahi released on 20th August 2009 on compassionate grounds because he was "about to die". Almost two years later and he's still knocking around.

MacAskill, the SNP's man who released him because he said he was "bound by Scottish values to release him" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean), could end up leaving office as a Minister before Megrahi's terminal illness becomes terminal. But hey, the SNP Ministers are 'statesmen'.

I find you funny!!

[One Day Soon]

It's kind of you to try.

Last time I saw Iain Gray was before he lost his Holyrood seat a few years ago. I ran into him wandering around Edinburgh Pentlands on polling day itself. He asked me if I was going to vote for him and I said no, not a chance and suggested that he might be looking through the Scotsman job pages the next day like I would be. "I don't think so some how" was his smug reply. How pleased was I when he lost his seat.... very. Not quite as enjoyable as a Portillo moment, but it was enjoyable.

Let's get this straight. He asked if you would vote for him - as politicians do. You didn't say 'no', you said 'not a chance' and then took the opportunity to gloat in his face that he might become unemployed the next day, which of course is a very public humiliation which also causes loss of income and career. And you think HE was the one being smug when he defended himself?

Would you be that crass and insensitive to anyone else facing the prospect of losing their job?

[One Day Soon]

I find you funny!!

One tries to bring a little joy.

[Sir David Gray]

Yeah, if we get in power we're gonna release all the terrorists just for a laugh :rolleyes: Don't undermine your points with ludicrous statements if you can! Also, if you think that renewable energy is a bad thing then that's a scunner for you as eventually we will have to use it no matter which party is in power, but I think it's a better thing to create jobs and industries in Scotland which can gain from it sooner rather than later in this economic climate!

If you use your argument that becoming independent from the UK but staying in Europe is not independence, are you trying to say that Finland and Italy are not independent countries? Are you trying to say that the European Union is one massive state? You only have to look at the Irish 'no' vote in the referendum last year for proof that each state has a clear voice, even if in that case the government manipulated their way through.

There is no comparison between the centralist structures of the UK, and those of the EU, where member states co-operate but retain their sovereignty. For instance, the Scottish Parliament, even were it to use all the tax powers available to it, would still only control 5% of its revenues. If we were an independent country, we would control 99% of them – everything except our EU receipts. There is clearly no comparison between these two kinds of union.

If we were independent we would have double the number of MEPs representing Scotland, yet unionists say we wouldn't have as much say in Europe? Bemusing to me.

First of all, I didn't say they were going to "release all the terrorists just for a laugh". In fact, the release of al-Megrahi was anything but a laughing matter. I would go as far as to say that, in my opinion, it was one of the worst decisions that a British politician has made in my lifetime. I believe it was an error of monumental proportions and I think the SNP should hang their collective heads in shame over this.

I won't be voting for the SNP, in any election, in the foreseeable future and this is a major reason for that.

As for renewable energy, personally I can't be bothered with all the talk about 'green' policies etc and my personal pet hate is the phrase "cutting down on your carbon footprint". However, I don't have a particular problem with the idea of renewable energy, I just can't stand the sight of dozens of wind turbines randomly popping up all over the place, when you're driving or walking through areas that are really scenic. I think they spoil the brilliant countryside that we have and I find them a total eyesore to be perfectly honest.

If we absolutely must have them then they should be out at sea where no-one will ever see them.

As for Europe, to answer your question about Finland and Italy, I would argue that no member state of the EU is truly independent. The EU has grown into something so big and so powerful, far bigger than it was ever intended to be when the UK voted in 1975 to accept the fact that we had joined the Common Market, as it was then, two years earlier. I would say that it is fast becoming a European superstate and I believe that will eventually happen.

Never mind about Scotland, the people of the UK need a referendum on this issue now because what the European Union is now is completely unrecognisable to what the British people voted in favour of 36 years ago.

If the major parties are all confident in the reasons for Britain's continued membership of the EU then they should be confident enough in their abilities to put forward their arguments in favour of our membership to persuade the British public that it really is for our own good. I think there is enough scepticism surrounding the EU in Britain nowadays to merit holding a referendum on this issue and finally put the whole thing to bed, one way or another.

The reason the major parties won't agree to doing this is because, in my opinion, they know fine well that the result wouldn't go in their favour.

However, that's not really what I was getting at. We're talking here about a country that is currently not independent (Scotland) and a political party that claims to support Scottish independence (SNP). What baffles me is that the SNP are publicly supportive of basically transferring power over Scotland from Westminster to Brussels, once we have left the United Kingdom. I just don't understand how a party that holds the independence of Scotland as being so important can support an external parliament exerting a massive amount of power and influence over our lawmaking abilities and infringing on our sovereignty in general.

As for the Irish referendum. I presume you're talking about the referendum that was held twice in Ireland on the Lisbon Treaty. The Irish people voted 'no' in the first referendum and then it was held again a year later when the EU finally got the result it was looking for.

They weren't happy with the first vote so presumably if the second vote had gone against them as well, they would have continued to hold the vote until they finally got the 'yes' vote that they were looking for.

The EU absolutely prevents individual national governments from making laws that they want to implement in their own country and I think that is totally wrong. Just in recent months alone, we've been told by Brussels that we must give prisoners the right to vote, we can't place convicted paedophiles and other sex offenders on the sex offenders' register for life and just recently I read a story about an Irish Republican march that is taking place this weekend, despite the fact that there had been an overwhelming majority of local residents who had lodged objections to the march taking place. The reason being was that to deny the group the right to hold their march would have been in breach of their human rights under European Law.

People elect national governments because that is what they think will work for their own country. What works for the people of the UK, won't necessarily work for the people of Lithuania because they are two separate nations and that's the way it should be but I don't think that's the way we are heading.

I also heard David Cameron making a big speech on immigration earlier today. That is another total waste of time, thanks to our continued membership of the EU. There is not a single thing that we can do to stop the vast majority of immigration into this country because it comes from the EU.

I'm just glad that, up until now, we have had the sense to retain our own currency. After witnessing the problems experienced in Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain over the past couple of years, God help us if we ever decide to join the Euro.

[AgentDaleCooper]

First of all, I didn't say they were going to "release all the terrorists just for a laugh". In fact, the release of al-Megrahi was anything but a laughing matter. I would go as far as to say that, in my opinion, it was one of the worst decisions that a British politician has made in my lifetime. I believe it was an error of monumental proportions and I think the SNP should hang their collective heads in shame over this.

i've made this point to you before, but you ignored it, i happen to think deliberately.

it has been shown that there was massive pressure coming from westminster on scotland to release him. it wasn't really for compassionate leave or anything like that, that was just how it had to be dressed up. it wouldn't have mattered who was in charge at holyrood, they'd all have had this forced upon them.

[Calvin]

I appreciate that my earlier post was a total copy and paste job but any of us here can appreciate that as enthusiasts and not politicians we don't have the time to paragraph every part of a party's campaign with documented evidence and personal opinion; it was merely a response to SiMar's challenge that he may not have previously read. Even so, I will try to do so at the start of next week. Despite being an SNP supporter I still feel that they are my 'party of best fit' and am happy to disagree where I see fit. I will also answer FH's disagreements with my points.



The problem with politics is that the smarter people can make up their own minds; so we are left to canvas for the vote of the idiot, hence the crap coming out from all parties.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Personally, I am of the opinion that if the United Kingdom is going to continue and Scotland is going to remain a part of it then the laws that are passed in the parliament of the United Kingdom should apply to each and every citizen in the entire nation.


that's a bold statement. there's been different laws for scotland long before the scottish parliament came into existence. i suspect that this opinion of yours is down to principle, rather than actual practical common sense. we're two different nations with different cultures in politics, law, health and so on. what sense is there in just jamming us together in hope of attaining some kind of 'fairness' or something, even though there has been nothing to suggest this is required? :confused:

[bighairyfaeleith]

One tries to bring a little joy.

yeah not entirely sure you mean it though:greengrin

[hibsbollah]

The problem with politics is that the smarter people can make up their own minds; so we are left to canvas for the vote of the idiot, hence the crap coming out from all parties.

Very perceptive point. But it is the responsibility of the parties themselves to elevate the debate above the 'crap'. Otherwise everyone gets turned off and democracy is weakened.

[Hainan Hibs]

I asked in a previous post for a list of all the achievements the SNP have had in the last 4 years that has made people so convinced that they have done a good job…like their 84 out of 99 list that seems rather conspicuous by its absence as well.

Not wanting to go for a billy big baws answer of search for it yourself, I was going to spend time writing a reply some day during the week, however when the possiblity of a ride off the girlfriend came up responding to a message on a public forum took a back seat.

I'll pop back on to write my thoughts when I can be arsed.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Not wanting to go for a billy big baws answer of search for it yourself, I was going to spend time writing a reply some day during the week, however when the possiblity of a ride off the girlfriend came up responding to a message on a public forum took a back seat.

I'll pop back on to write my thoughts when I can be arsed.

aye well writing a reply on a public forum probably would have taken more time:greengrin

[RyeSloan]

Not wanting to go for a billy big baws answer of search for it yourself, I was going to spend time writing a reply some day during the week, however when the possiblity of a ride off the girlfriend came up responding to a message on a public forum took a back seat.

I'll pop back on to write my thoughts when I can be arsed.

Cool, you get it once a week. Well done.

I have my own opinions on what the SNP have done for the last 4 years...I was asking why others thought the had done such a good job and what have they done to position Scotland ahead of the rest of the UK in devolved matters.

[One Day Soon]

i've made this point to you before, but you ignored it, i happen to think deliberately.

it has been shown that there was massive pressure coming from westminster on scotland to release him. it wasn't really for compassionate leave or anything like that, that was just how it had to be dressed up. it wouldn't have mattered who was in charge at holyrood, they'd all have had this forced upon them.

So you are saying that MacAskill was lying when he said it was on compassionate grounds, Salmond was lying when he said it was the Scottish government's decision alone and that the Party that claims to 'stand up for Scotland' couldn't stand up for either Scotland or itself over the simple decision of a prisoner release?

As my posts make clear I am no fan of the SNP but I even I have to admit that the idea that London forced an SNP government to release a prisoner - one that the U.S. desparately wanted to be kept locked up - is just ludicrous. Straight out of the SNP conspiracist's manual for excusing the woefully bad judgement of the SNP Government and its Ministers.

Salmond and MacAskill made the decision alone. Whatever their REAL motivation, the one thing we can be pretty sure of is that it wasn't because 'London Labour' made them do it.

[One Day Soon]

yeah not entirely sure you mean it though:greengrin

Hey, I'm not too fussed whether you're entertained or easily entertained.

I used to sit in the main stand right behind this guy who would begin every game with a loud shout of "C'mon Hibs. Let's get intae this pish" regardless of who we were playing. That's sort of what I feel about some of the contributions I read here -they're a bit like a political version of Closer magazine. Not that I, er, read that very often....

[cabbageandribs1875]

Fact is thought we have our governing party saying they enacted 90% of their manifesto commitments but yet are now refusing to evidence it, that’s sounds slightly more than spin to me, it sounds like outright lies.

I asked in a previous post for a list of all the achievements the SNP have had in the last 4 years that has made people so convinced that they have done a good job…like their 84 out of 99 list that seems rather conspicuous by its absence as well.

lets be peferctly honest here, labour have done there damndest to scupper just about every policy the SNP have tried to get a vote on, labour have been more concerned about blocking everything the SNP have tried to introduce, rather than passing it for the good of this country:agree:

[One Day Soon]

I appreciate that my earlier post was a total copy and paste job but any of us here can appreciate that as enthusiasts and not politicians we don't have the time to paragraph every part of a party's campaign with documented evidence and personal opinion; it was merely a response to SiMar's challenge that he may not have previously read. Even so, I will try to do so at the start of next week. Despite being an SNP supporter I still feel that they are my 'party of best fit' and am happy to disagree where I see fit. I will also answer FH's disagreements with my points.



The problem with politics is that the smarter people can make up their own minds; so we are left to canvas for the vote of the idiot, hence the crap coming out from all parties.

You would think that, but some of the apparently smarter people you meet....

I think it is absolutely true that we get the elected representatives we deserve.

[cabbageandribs1875]

i've made this point to you before, but you ignored it, i happen to think deliberately.

it has been shown that there was massive pressure coming from westminster on scotland to release him. it wasn't really for compassionate leave or anything like that, that was just how it had to be dressed up. it wouldn't have mattered who was in charge at holyrood, they'd all have had this forced upon them.

how naive are some people on here eh http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8350306/Megrahi-threatened-to-reveal-Gaddafis-role-in-Lockerbie-bombing-unless-he-was-released-it-is-claimed.html

The claims will cause further embarrassment for Labour, after declassified documents disclosed earlier this month that Gordon Brown’s government worked behind the scenes to secure the bomber’s release in exchange for lucrative trade deals with Libya.

can we maybe finally put an end to the nats-bashing for releasing Megrahi :rolleyes:


iirc wee eck went live on TV challenging westminster labour to come out with the facts....they declined :agree:

[One Day Soon]

Not wanting to go for a billy big baws answer of search for it yourself, I was going to spend time writing a reply some day during the week, however when the possiblity of a ride off the girlfriend came up responding to a message on a public forum took a back seat.

I'll pop back on to write my thoughts when I can be arsed.

I'm going to have to revise my opinion of you based upon that decision.

Though the conflation of "a ride off the girlfriend" and "when I can be arsed" conjures up unfortunate imagery.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Not wanting to go for a billy big baws answer of search for it yourself, I was going to spend time writing a reply some day during the week, however when the possiblity of a ride off the girlfriend came up responding to a message on a public forum took a back seat.

I'll pop back on to write my thoughts when I can be arsed.


I'm going to have to revise my opinion of you based upon that decision.

Though the conflation of "a ride off the girlfriend" and "when I can be arsed" conjures up unfortunate imagery.


lol :greengrin

[One Day Soon]

lets be peferctly honest here, labour have done there damndest to scupper just about every policy the SNP have tried to get a vote on, labour have been more concerned about blocking everything the SNP have tried to introduce, rather than passing it for the good of this country:agree:

Are you aware that there is a fairly well rehearsed marketing dictum which states that when a claim begins with a phrase like the one you have used above it generally means exactly the opposite? That apart I'm not really sure what your point is, if you have one.

[One Day Soon]

how naive are some people on here eh http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8350306/Megrahi-threatened-to-reveal-Gaddafis-role-in-Lockerbie-bombing-unless-he-was-released-it-is-claimed.html

The claims will cause further embarrassment for Labour, after declassified documents disclosed earlier this month that Gordon Brown’s government worked behind the scenes to secure the bomber’s release in exchange for lucrative trade deals with Libya.

can we maybe finally put an end to the nats-bashing for releasing Megrahi :rolleyes:


iirc wee eck went live on TV challenging westminster labour to come out with the facts....they declined :agree:

You ask "how naive are some people on here" and then instantly demonstrate your own naivety.

Let's park to one side for the moment that fact that the link you post is to the Tory supporting Telegraph making an attack on the Labour government. Let's focus on the facts of Megrahi's release. Go here: http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCAQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2***-11945890&rct=j&q=megrahi%20release%20salmond&ei=rkKoTdqOLca48gP-54SnBg&usg=AFQjCNECMPU9SLq2TakBLNYFczdJ21yH5w&cad=rja

The only responsibility for his release lies with MacAskill and Salmond. They, and they alone, chose to release him. Salmond has specifically gone on record to say so. Are you claiming that Salmond is lying?

Idiotically MacAskill has since made the assertion that having been told he would only live for three months it is incontrovertably true (in MacAskill's judgment) that despite the fact he has now lived for almost two years he would have only lived for three more months if he had been left in jail. WTF?

And as for "iirc wee eck went live on TV challenging westminster labour to come out with the facts....they declined" - Salmond in TV spin episode: shock.

[lucky]

Oh dear it seems our beloved First Minister now favours Glasgow over Edinburgh. What next will he say to try and con a vote in Scotland

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Glasgow39s-miles-better-off-in.6752265.jp

[Future17]

The problem with politics is that the smarter people can make up their own minds; so we are left to canvas for the vote of the idiot, hence the crap coming out from all parties.


Not wanting to go for a billy big baws answer of search for it yourself, I was going to spend time writing a reply some day during the week, however when the possiblity of a ride off the girlfriend came up responding to a message on a public forum took a back seat.

I'll pop back on to write my thoughts when I can be arsed.


Cool, you get it once a week. Well done.

Surely the bit in bold can't be true when there is this sort of evidence of this forum elevating political debate to a new intellectual high. :greengrin

[RyeSloan]

lets be peferctly honest here, labour have done there damndest to scupper just about every policy the SNP have tried to get a vote on, labour have been more concerned about blocking everything the SNP have tried to introduce, rather than passing it for the good of this country:agree:

Sounds like you are saying that the SNP have done nothing of significance and it's everyone elses fault? :confused:

[ancienthibby]

Really? As far as I can see Calvino's taken the SNP press release and faithfully reprinted it but not engaged with any of the questions posed about Salmond. Megrahi (poor judgement), independence referendum (no judgement allowed), Arc of Prosperity (catastrophic judgement), Lib Dems and Tories (lacking in judgement) and SNP scandals (judged and found wanting).

Perhaps he's been too busy with Megrahi's funeral. Was it a big affair? What's that you say, he's still alive?

Megrahi released on 20th August 2009 on compassionate grounds because he was "about to die". Almost two years later and he's still knocking around.

MacAskill, the SNP's man who released him because he said he was "bound by Scottish values to release him" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean), could end up leaving office as a Minister before Megrahi's terminal illness becomes terminal. But hey, the SNP Ministers are 'statesmen'.

Give it a rest will you with all the sarcasm about AlMegrahi being still alive:grr:

The FACT is that doctors CANNOT give accurate prognosis for prostate cancer sifferers!:agree:

How do I know?? Well I was given an AlMegrahi diagnosis six months before he was with a 6-18 month prognosis at one point.

I have just passed the third anniversary of my 'terminal' diagnosis, so there's another example of the difficulty medical people have with making predictions about this illness.

[One Day Soon]

Oh dear it seems our beloved First Minister now favours Glasgow over Edinburgh. What next will he say to try and con a vote in Scotland

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Glasgow39s-miles-better-off-in.6752265.jp

They have been spinning so hard over the last four years that they are now believing their own bull5hit. Otherwise you just wouldn't attempt something as stupidly deceptive as this. Apart from anything else these cities are competing with other global cities and the acknowledged position on trying to be competitive is that they need to work together in partnership - which they are getting increasingly good at.

Why would a party that claims to stand up for Scotland do something so petty, decisive and destructive to the Scottish interest?

[One Day Soon]

Give it a rest will you with all the sarcasm about AlMegrahi being still alive:grr:

Um, let me think about that. No. No, I don't think I will stop pointing out the various spectacular misjudgments that have taken place on Salmond's watch. I'm still waiting by the way for any of the more rabid Tartan Underpants Brigade to explain the scandals over character references for convicted criminals and misusing Parliamentary facilities to sell lunches with Salmond and Sturgeon.

Your posts drip with abuse and sarcasm on those subjects you deem fit, so those in glass houses etc...

The FACT is that doctors CANNOT give accurate prognosis for prostate cancer sifferers!:agree:

If the FACT is that doctors CANNOT give accurate prognosis then he SHOULD NOT have been released on the basis of unreliable evidence that he was going to die. MacAskill justified his decision time and again on the medical grounds. If those medical grounds are as, you suggest, so unreliable then he has made an even bigger horse's buttocks of it than appears at first examination.

All of which makes MacAskill's bizarre claims about the certainty of Megrahi's death within three months if he had remained imprisoned even more spectacularly dumb.

How do I know?? Well I was given an AlMegrahi diagnosis six months before he was with a 6-18 month prognosis at one point.

I have just passed the third anniversary of my 'terminal' diagnosis, so there's another example of the difficulty medical people have with making predictions about this illness.

Congratulations to you on your remarkable survival. I am delighted by it and all the more so since you are a) a Hibby and b) not a Libyan mass murderer posting from Tripoli.

You're not are you?

[Don Giovanni]

Wow.

What an unbelievable lack of grace...

[lucky]

It appears that the Nats have been caught out again 51 of the 84 manifesto pledges they claim to have done have turned out to have either not been completed or were not in the 2007 manifesto. Another 8 have not been proven in the latest spin by wee eck. The rest is still under scrutiny.

[discman]

So you are saying that MacAskill was lying when he said it was on compassionate grounds, Salmond was lying when he said it was the Scottish government's decision alone and that the Party that claims to 'stand up for Scotland' couldn't stand up for either Scotland or itself over the simple decision of a prisoner release?

As my posts make clear I am no fan of the SNP but I even I have to admit that the idea that London forced an SNP government to release a prisoner - one that the U.S. desparately wanted to be kept locked up - is just ludicrous. Straight out of the SNP conspiracist's manual for excusing the woefully bad judgement of the SNP Government and its Ministers.

Salmond and MacAskill made the decision alone. Whatever their REAL motivation, the one thing we can be pretty sure of is that it wasn't because 'London Labour' made them do it.







Jack Straw denies pressure from Libya led to Megrahi release ... (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CEsQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guardian.co.uk%2Fpolitics%2F2 010%2Fdec%2F08%2Fwikileaks-jack-straw-denies-pressure-libya-megrahi&ei=vpGoTfDnBcyo8QPW-rStDg&usg=AFQjCNHnQ7WaZvGdkuVwCMVMylKTj4vhbw) http://www.hibs.net/green.gif (http://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/guardian.co.uk?pip=false&premium=false&client_uid=1221076714&client_ver=3.3.1.131&client_type=IEPlugin&suite=false&aff_id=0&locale=en_gb&os_ver=6.0.2.0&ref=safesearch)


8 Dec 2010 ... Former Labour justice secretary speaks out after Guardian reveals secret US embassy cables show London's deep fears that Tripoli would take ...
www.guardian.co.uk/.../wikileaks-jack-straw-denies-pressure-libya-megrahi (http://www.guardian.co.uk/.../wikileaks-jack-straw-denies-pressure-libya-megrahi)






This suggests otherwise,to suggest that Salmond had the nous or werewithall to figure this out himself is surely giving him more creedence that he deserves :greengrin
</DIV>

[sKipper]

It appears that the Nats have been caught out again 51 of the 84 manifesto pledges they claim to have done have turned out to have either not been completed or were not in the 2007 manifesto. Another 8 have not been proven in the latest spin by wee eck. The rest is still under scrutiny.

No doubt this latest made up nonsense from Labour will be shot down in flames over the next few days.

[sKipper]

that's a bold statement. there's been different laws for scotland long before the scottish parliament came into existence. i suspect that this opinion of yours is down to principle, rather than actual practical common sense. we're two different nations with different cultures in politics, law, health and so on. what sense is there in just jamming us together in hope of attaining some kind of 'fairness' or something, even though there has been nothing to suggest this is required? :confused:

There has ALWAYS been a separate legal system in Scotland. Sounds like Falkirkhibee wants to get rid of Scots law :confused:

[lucky]

Oh dear. Seems that the media are the ones ripping the claims apart not Labour. Even STV news exposed the flaws in Wee Ecks claims

[sKipper]

Oh dear. Seems that the media are the ones ripping the claims apart not Labour. Even STV news exposed the flaws in Wee Ecks claims

Funny that , having just watched it I reckon you should clean out your ears as they did nothing of the sort.

They simply stated Labour had drawn up a new document to counter the one the SNP had published.

No single flaw was exposed .

[lucky]

Dream on skip they exposed 4 manifesto commitments that see dafty has failed on right away. Tomorrows press will be full of it. The wee myth is getting exposed

[sKipper]

Dream on skip they exposed 4 manifesto commitments that see dafty has failed on right away. Tomorrows press will be full of it. The wee myth is getting exposed

Which 4 were they then ?

[The Baldmans Comb]

I definetely hope the SNP are returned as they have proved to be a very capable adminstration with a real vision for the future and in Salmond they have a politician head and shoulders above the rest.

His performance last night on BBC question time was quite exemplary as he gave the english tories the complete runaround.

It's good to see the Scottish Labour party this time around are being more positive in their campaign and I like some of their headline manifesto policies but they have a very poor leader in Ian Gray, a decent man but very much out of his depth as the leader of a country.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Perhaps he's been too busy with Megrahi's funeral. Was it a big affair? What's that you say, he's still alive?



And as for "iirc wee eck went live on TV challenging westminster labour to come out with the facts....they declined" - Salmond in TV spin episode: shock.



oh dear, think i'l pass, and think i'l go do a 'hainan':aok:

p.s. mon the nats

mon eck

mon another 5 years of frozen cooncil tax

[J-C]

So with lower class sizes, zero charges on perscriptions, a promise to keep student fees free and wanting to scrap the stupid bloody trams and there's still people here who's not vote SNP...............c'mon folk get with it eh!

[The Harp Awakes]

I definetely hope the SNP are returned as they have proved to be a very capable adminstration with a real vision for the future and in Salmond they have a politician head and shoulders above the rest.

His performance last night on BBC question time was quite exemplary as he gave the english tories the complete runaround.

It's good to see the Scottish Labour party this time around are being more positive in their campaign and I like some of their headline manifesto policies but they have a very poor leader in Ian Gray, a decent man but very much out of his depth as the leader of a country.

I've never wasted a voting opportunity since I was 18 and have voted Labour on most occasions. I became disillusioned with Labour during Blair's reign of spin and the Iraq War was the last straw for me. Their negative political tactics displayed in Scottish elections in recent years have been dispicable. They are a shadow of the party I used to vote for without thinking twice.

The SNP have gone from strength to strength in recent years and have formed a surprisingly stable and successful minority Government IMO.

For me, today's Scottish Labour Party = negativity whereas the SNP = positivity. The SNP have a vision for Scotland whereas Labour are living in the past.

Salmond's performance on Question Time last night was truly exceptional. The Liverpudlian audience warmed to him. How he turned the inevitable Al Megrahi question into a positive for the SNP Government was as unexpected as it was remarkable. He is without doubt one of the most skilful politicians of our time.

The Labour sheep (and I used to be one) will ensure that it is a close election but hopefully sense will prevail.

[lucky]

There is no doubt wee eck is a skilled showman but take away the spin and acting we are left with a man who leads an independence party but does not want to talk about it. The tartan Tories should never be forgiven for delivering us Thatcher

[Mibbes Aye]

The SNP said they wanted independence for Scotland. That's their raison d'etre, it's the whole reason why the SNP exist and ask us to vote for them.

And when they finally, finally got a chance of running things, guess what? - independence for Scotland got dumped :confused:

It seems that once the SNP got into power, got the nice offices, got the admins and the additional expenses for being in charge.........well, they quite liked it....being honest, who wouldn't? :aok:

And independence turned into a side issue :agree:

And being in government, just being in power, was nicer :wink:

Thing is, now we have a Tory government at Westminster. And they're trying to rip apart our NHS - and we know, from bitter experience, that's just the start of it.

We've already heard from a Tory that he will be voting SNP.

The Tories aren't scared of an SNP government.

The Tories are afraid of a Scottish Labour government though.

I'm glad most of us can remember what the Tories and their friends did for Scotland the last time they were in power.

[MountcastleHibs]

The SNP said they wanted independence for Scotland. That's their raison d'etre, it's the whole reason why the SNP exist and ask us to vote for them.

And when they finally, finally got a chance of running things, guess what? - independence for Scotland got dumped :confused:

It seems that once the SNP got into power, got the nice offices, got the admins and the additional expenses for being in charge.........well, they quite liked it....being honest, who wouldn't? :aok:

And independence turned into a side issue :agree:

And being in government, just being in power, was nicer :wink:

Thing is, now we have a Tory government at Westminster. And they're trying to rip apart our NHS - and we know, from bitter experience, that's just the start of it.

We've already heard from a Tory that he will be voting SNP.

The Tories aren't scared of an SNP government.

The Tories are afraid of a Scottish Labour government though.

I'm glad most of us can remember what the Tories and their friends did for Scotland the last time they were in power.

Health is a devolved matter though, so the NHS in Scotland is not subject to these reforms, unless the Scottish Tories manage a miracle up here, or the reforms that are proposed in England are that much of a resounding success, we decide to adopt them up here.

And I'll follow on from what others have said, independence has not gone out the window for the SNP. It is not a sideshow. It's been good governance from the SNP, because they knew in the last Parliament, that any proposal to put forward a referendum for independence, or to give more devolved powers to Scotland, would be voted down by the three Westminster parties. There was no doubt in that. What would be the point in wasting precious parliamentary time? I'm sure the same people who are criticising the SNP on this issue, would be also be laying criticism at their door for wasting parliamentary time. The other parties are scared of how a vote for independence would go (for what its worth, independence would be a no vote at this time imo, with Scotland getting more devolved powers). But that's not the reason the SNP haven't proposed a referendum to parliament. They know the other parties don't want the people of Scotland to decide their constitutional future.

It's been great spin for Iain Gray to say he and his party are the party for Scotland.

[marinello59]

mon another 5 years of frozen cooncil tax

:party:



zero charges on perscriptions, a promise to keep student fees free !

Woo hoo. More free stuff. :party:
As a don't know I have to say I am now only a free tee shirt away from voting for the Nats.

[ancienthibby]

I've never wasted a voting opportunity since I was 18 and have voted Labour on most occasions. I became disillusioned with Labour during Blair's reign of spin and the Iraq War was the last straw for me. Their negative political tactics displayed in Scottish elections in recent years have been dispicable. They are a shadow of the party I used to vote for without thinking twice.

The SNP have gone from strength to strength in recent years and have formed a surprisingly stable and successful minority Government IMO.

For me, today's Scottish Labour Party = negativity whereas the SNP = positivity. The SNP have a vision for Scotland whereas Labour are living in the past.

Salmond's performance on Question Time last night was truly exceptional. The Liverpudlian audience warmed to him. How he turned the inevitable Al Megrahi question into a positive for the SNP Government was as unexpected as it was remarkable. He is without doubt one of the most skilful politicians of our time.

The Labour sheep (and I used to be one) will ensure that it is a close election but hopefully sense will prevail.

:top marks

That'a a quality post and the highlighted para sums its up perfectly!

Maybe there's too many younger folks posting on here, who may not understand that there is a thing common in every election in every democracy in the world and it's called electioneering.

So one says white, the other says black.

So Glasgow is favoured one day, the North the next, Edinburgh the next and so on. All the fuss being made by a poster or two re the Ed/Gla debate is just simply the SNP putting out a message designed solely for voters in Glasgow that, as a Government, it has done its bit for Glasgow, in the face of Labour's constant whining on and on about Garl, Garl, Garl, etc. It's called electioneering.

And beyond that, the highlighted lines are spot on. Salmond is head and shoulders above all the other potential FM's (an d the electorate recognise this) and Labour have never fielded a candidate so unfit for leadership since the days of Michael Foot.:thumbsup:

Who's he, the young ones ask. Just hold on, there'll be a Liebor Party apologist along in a minute!:wink:

[marinello59]

Health is a devolved matter though, so the NHS in Scotland is not subject to these reforms, unless the Scottish Tories manage a miracle up here, or the reforms that are proposed in England are that much of a resounding success, we decide to adopt them up here.

And I'll follow on from what others have said, independence has not gone out the window for the SNP. It is not a sideshow. It's been good governance from the SNP, because they knew in the last Parliament, that any proposal to put forward a referendum for independence, or to give more devolved powers to Scotland, would be voted down by the three Westminster parties. There was no doubt in that. What would be the point in wasting precious parliamentary time? I'm sure the same people who are criticising the SNP on this issue, would be also be laying criticism at their door for wasting parliamentary time. The other parties are scared of how a vote for independence would go (for what its worth, independence would be a no vote at this time imo, with Scotland getting more devolved powers). But that's not the reason the SNP haven't proposed a referendum to parliament. They know the other parties don't want the people of Scotland to decide their constitutional future.

It's been great spin for Iain Gray to say he and his party are the party for Scotland.

I put Labour and the SNP equal on points in terms of spin. Neither party really wants to engage in proper debate during this campaign but seem to be more interested in scoring petty points off each other. All thoroughly depressing stuff.
Has anybody seen many posters etc being displayed in windows. Or seen any hustings meetings advertised. Or caught a glimpse of any of their local candidates. Or are even aware of who they are?

[MountcastleHibs]

I put Labour and the SNP equal on points in terms of spin. Neither party really wants to engage in proper debate during this campaign but seem to be more interested in scoring petty points off each other. All thoroughly depressing stuff.
Has anybody seen many posters etc being displayed in windows. Or seen any hustings meetings advertised. Or caught a glimpse of any of their local candidates. Or are even aware of who they are?

That's a very fair point actually. This election, as the UK election last year, has become very centralised and in some ways, Americanised. The concentration is on who will be First Minister, and not on the local issues of who will be the MSP. For me, that is sad.

I only found out yesterday who the Lib Dem candidate was in my constituency.

[hibsbollah]

Michael Foot was a great, principled man and one of the best orators of the 20C. Comparing him to Iain Gray is a sick joke. In 82 he was dealing with a party intent on ripping itself apart, the first real TV election and a wholly hostile media.

...But thats another thread :-)

[ancienthibby]

Michael Foot was a great, principled man and one of the best orators of the 20C. Comparing him to Iain Gray is a sick joke. In 82 he was dealing with a party intent on ripping itself apart, the first real TV election and a wholly hostile media.

...But thats another thread :-)

Indeed he was, no argument about that, and Gray may have fine qualities too.

The problem with both is that neither were/are fitted for leadersnhip.:agree:

[Beefster]

The SNP said they wanted independence for Scotland. That's their raison d'etre, it's the whole reason why the SNP exist and ask us to vote for them.

And when they finally, finally got a chance of running things, guess what? - independence for Scotland got dumped :confused:

It seems that once the SNP got into power, got the nice offices, got the admins and the additional expenses for being in charge.........well, they quite liked it....being honest, who wouldn't? :aok:

And independence turned into a side issue :agree:

And being in government, just being in power, was nicer :wink:

Thing is, now we have a Tory government at Westminster. And they're trying to rip apart our NHS - and we know, from bitter experience, that's just the start of it.

We've already heard from a Tory that he will be voting SNP.

The Tories aren't scared of an SNP government.

The Tories are afraid of a Scottish Labour government though.

I'm glad most of us can remember what the Tories and their friends did for Scotland the last time they were in power.

If you are going to use me to bolster your case, represent me properly.

You're right - I fear a Labour administration more than an SNP one. Nothing to do with policy or independence, seeing as there is barely a cigarette paper between the two parties. I fear Scotland having a useless **** like Gray as our 'Leader' and the bunch of no-marks who qualify as Labour MSPs in positions of power. That's it. I also find it embarrassing that my constituency returns Gray.

If Scottish Labour had a better leader/team then I'd stick to voting Tory.

Good to see that you still haven't moved beyond the "Don't vote for the nasty Tories. Remember what they did 30 years ago." argument. You do love to parrot the current Labour party line. Some of the most deprived areas in the country are Labour strongholds - some voters need to start to question what Labour MPs and governments have done to help them meet their aspirations or improve their lives in the last 15 years rather than worrying about the red herring of the early 80's.

[sKipper]

The SNP said they wanted independence for Scotland. That's their raison d'etre, it's the whole reason why the SNP exist and ask us to vote for them.

And when they it.


The Tories aren't scared of an SNP government.

The Tories are afraid of a Scottish Labour government though.

.

Nobody this side of the Mississippi is scared of a Scottish Labour government. Iain Gray and his pals would be a laughing stock.

As for independence, do you understand how minority government works ?

If the other parties vote against or threaten to then you have no chance of implementing a policy.

Concensus and negotiation are the way to do things, qualities no Labour goverment have ever entertained in my time.

What Scotland needs is a MAJORITY SNP win next month. Then we could see even more progress.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Congratulations to you on your remarkable survival. I am delighted by it and all the more so since you are a) a Hibby and b) not a Libyan mass murderer posting from Tripoli.

You're not are you?

I now just feel sorry for you!!

[bighairyfaeleith]

I put Labour and the SNP equal on points in terms of spin. Neither party really wants to engage in proper debate during this campaign but seem to be more interested in scoring petty points off each other. All thoroughly depressing stuff.
Has anybody seen many posters etc being displayed in windows. Or seen any hustings meetings advertised. Or caught a glimpse of any of their local candidates. Or are even aware of who they are?

just found out my lib dem candidate yesterday as well, needless to say he wasted a stamp but I least I know who I'm not voting for now.

Labours policies are so close to the snp's now that they have made it an election for the first minister, they ****ed that one right up given who there leader is:greengrin

[One Day Soon]

I now just feel sorry for you!!

Do you!!

Really!!!

Great!!!!

Is that enough exclamation marks!!!!!

This is a political discussion. If you think I'm going to suddenly stop talking about any of the points at issue simply because someone who delights in making crass political claims and using invective about another party and it's leader then chooses to bring the personal into the political then you are wrong.

It is a classic tactic used by those who are unable to defend a position they have dug themselves into and the SNP's position on Megrahi perfectly fits that bill.

Having made absolutely clear in my post my genuine delight that AH has confounded his own diagnosis (a pretty exceptional achievement) there is absolutely no way I am going to allow the politics of the matter to be ignored by giving Salmond, the SNP or any of their mindlessly devoted fellow travellers a free pass on the substance of the issue in a debate on here. Particularly where some of them have been so comfortable dispensing abuse to other parties and individuals and ignoring facts up to this point.

[One Day Soon]

I definetely hope the SNP are returned as they have proved to be a very capable adminstration with a real vision for the future and in Salmond they have a politician head and shoulders above the rest.

His performance last night on BBC question time was quite exemplary as he gave the english tories the complete runaround.

It's good to see the Scottish Labour party this time around are being more positive in their campaign and I like some of their headline manifesto policies but they have a very poor leader in Ian Gray, a decent man but very much out of his depth as the leader of a country.

The Tories are about as popular as the plague right now. Any smug, overweight trumpet with half a brain could give them a doing in front of a Liverpudlian audience right now. Oh, wait a minute.....

[One Day Soon]

So with lower class sizes, zero charges on perscriptions, a promise to keep student fees free and wanting to scrap the stupid bloody trams and there's still people here who's not vote SNP...............c'mon folk get with it eh!

Dear me

lower class sizes - an SNP pledge from the last election which they in fact broke

zero charges on perscriptions - free medicines for the wealthy as well as the poor when the wealthiest could afford to pay for it so that our taxes could go further in supporting those who need medical care most

a promise to keep student fees free - a completely unsustainable and wrong position to take. It cannot be afforded in the years ahead and anyway students who will earn far higher incomes than others once they gain their degrees should help to pay for the education that got them those higher salaries.

scrap the stupid bloody trams - what a great idea, £500 million spent so far and your idea is that we should get no benefit at all for that money by just stopping the project dead in its tracks.

There may be good and sensible reasons for voting SNP in this election but you haven't listed them

[One Day Soon]

Health is a devolved matter though, so the NHS in Scotland is not subject to these reforms, unless the Scottish Tories manage a miracle up here, or the reforms that are proposed in England are that much of a resounding success, we decide to adopt them up here.

And I'll follow on from what others have said, independence has not gone out the window for the SNP. It is not a sideshow. It's been good governance from the SNP, because they knew in the last Parliament, that any proposal to put forward a referendum for independence, or to give more devolved powers to Scotland, would be voted down by the three Westminster parties. There was no doubt in that. What would be the point in wasting precious parliamentary time? I'm sure the same people who are criticising the SNP on this issue, would be also be laying criticism at their door for wasting parliamentary time. The other parties are scared of how a vote for independence would go (for what its worth, independence would be a no vote at this time imo, with Scotland getting more devolved powers). But that's not the reason the SNP haven't proposed a referendum to parliament. They know the other parties don't want the people of Scotland to decide their constitutional future.

It's been great spin for Iain Gray to say he and his party are the party for Scotland.

So why didn't this argument extend to the wasting of vast amounts of taxpayer's money on the 'National Conversation', an extended advert for independence run by the SNP government and paid for with public money?

They were happy to use our pay cheques to run an enormous spin machine in favour of independence, but unwilling to allow a debate to take place in Parliament which would have cost nothing, lasted for an afternoon and allowed the public to hear all of the arguments for and against.

The answer of course is that the debate in parliament would have seen their constitutional experiment challenged and opposed whereas the expensive countrywide spin machine ran unchallenged as a propaganda exercise on the back of public money. Money that could have gone into the NHS.

[One Day Soon]

:top marks

That'a a quality post and the highlighted para sums its up perfectly!

Maybe there's too many younger folks posting on here, who may not understand that there is a thing common in every election in every democracy in the world and it's called electioneering.

So one says white, the other says black.

So Glasgow is favoured one day, the North the next, Edinburgh the next and so on. All the fuss being made by a poster or two re the Ed/Gla debate is just simply the SNP putting out a message designed solely for voters in Glasgow that, as a Government, it has done its bit for Glasgow, in the face of Labour's constant whining on and on about Garl, Garl, Garl, etc. It's called electioneering.

And beyond that, the highlighted lines are spot on. Salmond is head and shoulders above all the other potential FM's (an d the electorate recognise this) and Labour have never fielded a candidate so unfit for leadership since the days of Michael Foot.:thumbsup:

Who's he, the young ones ask. Just hold on, there'll be a Liebor Party apologist along in a minute!:wink:

What a load of absolute propagandist drivel. Its a long time since I have read anything on here quite so fundamentally dishonest as this. Either that or it betrays total ignorance of politics.

Setting out a manifesto, set of committments or indeed achievements for a particular geographical area or sector of the economy is one thing. Specifically lauding the advance of one city at the expense of another is entirely different. It is divisive, shameless and the lowest of the low kind of political spin.

Specifically the leaflet says (among other things): "The SNP is funding Glasgow 40 per cent more than Edinburgh. That is the latest good news from the Scottish Government for the city. In the latest budget Glasgow was awarded £2617 per head while Edinburgh got £1821."

And this from a Party that claims to stand up for Scotland. How does grubbing for votes in Glasgow at the explicit cost of the interests of Edinburgh show a regard for either the Scottish national interest or for honest political debate. Anyone who defends that has lost all perspective, blinded by their own myopic political bias.

[Beefster]

Dear me

lower class sizes - an SNP pledge from the last election which they in fact broke

zero charges on perscriptions - free medicines for the wealthy as well as the poor when the wealthiest could afford to pay for it so that our taxes could go further in supporting those who need medical care most

a promise to keep student fees free - a completely unsustainable and wrong position to take. It cannot be afforded in the years ahead and anyway students who will earn far higher incomes than others once they gain their degrees should help to pay for the education that got them those higher salaries.

scrap the stupid bloody trams - what a great idea, £500 million spent so far and your idea is that we should get no benefit at all for that money by just stopping the project dead in its tracks.

There may be good and sensible reasons for voting SNP in this election but you haven't listed them

You agree that all benefits (e.g. Winter fuel allowance, free bus passes, free eye tests, DLA) should be means-tested?

I was jumped on by a Labour supporter on here a few weeks ago for suggesting that we shouldn't be wasting public money on those who don't actually need it - especially when lots of those funding the benefits are struggling to balance their family budgets.

[One Day Soon]

You agree that all benefits (e.g. Winter fuel allowance, free bus passes, free eye tests, DLA) should be means-tested?

I was jumped on by a Labour supporter on here a few weeks ago for suggesting that we shouldn't be wasting public money on those who don't actually need it - especially when lots of those funding the benefits are struggling to balance their family budgets.

Nearly, but not all. Of the ones you list I would means test all except the eye tests. These I think have a proven track record in early detection of a range of other diseases and therefore, quite apart from the health benefits, have the potential to save a lot of public money through early detection and prevention.

Each one needs to be examined on its own merit but blanket universal provision regardless of need is a disservice to the poorest and most vulnerable because it redistributes care, wealth and opportunity equally to the rich and the poor. Mind you I would set the means test bar pretty high to err on the side of caution in favour of eligibility because the margins of difference in income among even the middle and lower middle class income earners are small.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Do you!!

Really!!!

Great!!!!

Is that enough exclamation marks!!!!!

This is a political discussion. If you think I'm going to suddenly stop talking about any of the points at issue simply because someone who delights in making crass political claims and using invective about another party and it's leader then chooses to bring the personal into the political then you are wrong.

It is a classic tactic used by those who are unable to defend a position they have dug themselves into and the SNP's position on Megrahi perfectly fits that bill.

Having made absolutely clear in my post my genuine delight that AH has confounded his own diagnosis (a pretty exceptional achievement) there is absolutely no way I am going to allow the politics of the matter to be ignored by giving Salmond, the SNP or any of their mindlessly devoted fellow travellers a free pass on the substance of the issue in a debate on here. Particularly where some of them have been so comfortable dispensing abuse to other parties and individuals and ignoring facts up to this point.

:spammy:

I have added some text in bold, because thats what we do

[The Baldmans Comb]

I've never wasted a voting opportunity since I was 18 and have voted Labour on most occasions. I became disillusioned with Labour during Blair's reign of spin and the Iraq War was the last straw for me. Their negative political tactics displayed in Scottish elections in recent years have been dispicable. They are a shadow of the party I used to vote for without thinking twice.

The SNP have gone from strength to strength in recent years and have formed a surprisingly stable and successful minority Government IMO.

For me, today's Scottish Labour Party = negativity whereas the SNP = positivity. The SNP have a vision for Scotland whereas Labour are living in the past.

Salmond's performance on Question Time last night was truly exceptional. The Liverpudlian audience warmed to him. How he turned the inevitable Al Megrahi question into a positive for the SNP Government was as unexpected as it was remarkable. He is without doubt one of the most skilful politicians of our time.

The Labour sheep (and I used to be one) will ensure that it is a close election but hopefully sense will prevail.


It is something I hope for as well as I also have very gradually changed my voting position over the years and I really am in no doubt whatsover that Scotland under an SNP administration is definetly the way forward.

Hopefully the Independendence referendum won't be blocked again by the Unionist parties but even if they are as I expect they will be then the SNP have already proved their competence as a minority government and I am sure they can continue with this for a second term.

[Beefster]

Nearly, but not all. Of the ones you list I would means test all except the eye tests. These I think have a proven track record in early detection of a range of other diseases and therefore, quite apart from the health benefits, have the potential to save a lot of public money through early detection and prevention.

Each one needs to be examined on its own merit but blanket universal provision regardless of need is a disservice to the poorest and most vulnerable because it redistributes care, wealth and opportunity equally to the rich and the poor. Mind you I would set the means test bar pretty high to err on the side of caution in favour of eligibility because the margins of difference in income among even the middle and lower middle class income earners are small.

Thanks for the response. It's good to know that we broadly agree on at least one thing!