Scottish Parliamentary Elections....

[CropleyWasGod]

That's quite a moniker. Is that People's Front or Popular People's Front?

People's Popular Front, p'lease. :wink:

[One Day Soon]

Good. Patrick Harvie and his band are absolute roasters.



No great shock. Despite his claims last night, it was fairly certain his colleagues would tell him to go.

I don't think anyone told him to go. Who would have the authority or be in a fit state to tell him to go? I think he's just done the right thing.

[ancienthibby]

No it hasn't. Your team made plain they wouldn't bring a referendum forward.

This time it isn't if but when. It is when isn't it?

ODiouS,

Good to see you are still hanging in there, despite the battering LPoWiS has taken!:greengrin

The FibDems have been wiped out on the Scottish mainland, but then again the LPoWiS has suffered the same fate in their historic heartland of Glasgow/Lanarkshire.

I have no doubt that LPoWiS need to undertake a root and branch assessment of their position/strategy/vision and get re-calibrated for they do have a positive role to play in a re-vitalised Scotland. And I now hear that the weegreychickencarcrash will exit in October.

Who is your choice for leader - Ken MacIntosh, perhaps??

I do hope a really Scottish Labour Party emerges - that would be quite novel - and is needed!

[JimBHibees]

Oh you're quite wrong about that. The policies are going to be a big focus. You know: no NHS cuts, Council Tax freeze, free education,etc. Don't disappoint now...

Well they'll do the best job they can with the basket case economy they are having to deal with.

Council tax freeze was that not a Labour policy or one just pilferred in the last couple of weeks? :greengrin

I dont think anyone has pretended that it is a very difficult time and that cuts will be made but personally think they will deal with it better than any other party.

[One Day Soon]

ODiouS,

Good to see you are still hanging in there, despite the battering LPoWiS has taken!:greengrin

The FibDems have been wiped out on the Scottish mainland, but then again the LPoWiS has suffered the same fate in their historic heartland of Glasgow/Lanarkshire.

I have no doubt that LPoWiS need to undertake a root and branch assessment of their position/strategy/vision and get re-calibrated for they do have a positive role to play in a re-vitalised Scotland. And I now hear that the weegreychickencarcrash will exit in October.

Who is your choice for leader - Ken MacIntosh, perhaps??

I do hope a really Scottish Labour Party emerges - that would be quite novel - and is needed!

Look, I'm quite prepared to discuss these things with you or anyone else, but not if you are going to continue with the childish name calling.

For a start, we have lots we need to do but seeing "a really Scottish Labour Party" emerge isn't one of them. We already are "a really Scottish Labour Party".

[One Day Soon]

Well they'll do the best job they can with the basket case economy they are having to deal with.

Council tax freeze was that not a Labour policy or one just pilferred in the last couple of weeks? :greengrin

I dont think anyone has pretended that it is a very difficult time and that cuts will be made but personally think they will deal with it better than any other party.

No. Everyone else's policies are now completely irrelevant. The SNP asked for a mandate based upon their manifesto and all the promises in it and they got it. They didn't ask for a mandate for a coalition.

So we can now assume that all of those promises were costed and will be delivered. I can't wait.

[Beefster]

I don't think anyone told him to go. Who would have the authority or be in a fit state to tell him to go? I think he's just done the right thing.

He was claiming that he wasn't going anywhere about 12 hours ago. It may be that he came to his senses on his own but it's likely that his parliamentary party (and the UK leadership) had their say too.


ODiouS,

Good to see you are still hanging in there, despite the battering LPoWiS has taken!:greengrin

The FibDems have been wiped out on the Scottish mainland, but then again the LPoWiS has suffered the same fate in their historic heartland of Glasgow/Lanarkshire.

I have no doubt that LPoWiS need to undertake a root and branch assessment of their position/strategy/vision and get re-calibrated for they do have a positive role to play in a re-vitalised Scotland. And I now hear that the weegreychickencarcrash will exit in October.

Who is your choice for leader - Ken MacIntosh, perhaps??

I do hope a really Scottish Labour Party emerges - that would be quite novel - and is needed!

A bit of dignity in victory perhaps, Mr AH.

[ancienthibby]

He was claiming that he wasn't going anywhere about 12 hours ago. It may be that he came to his senses on his own but it's likely that his parliamentary party (and the UK leadership) had their say too.



A bit of dignity in victory perhaps, Mr AH.

Hey, I gave much more than was deserved!!:greengrin

[ancienthibby]

Look, I'm quite prepared to discuss these things with you or anyone else, but not if you are going to continue with the childish name calling.

For a start, we have lots we need to do but seeing "a really Scottish Labour Party" emerge isn't one of them. We already are "a really Scottish Labour Party".

I am happy to understand more, but there is no such thing a 'really Scottish Labour Party.!!:aok:

Indeed, there is no such thing as 'Scottish Labour Party'

You should not be confused!:greengrin

[ancient hibee]

What was the turnout-about 50%?Numptieland right enough.

[gringojoe]

Wee Alex should play the waiting game, lets the condems make more cuts to public services over the next few years then shout it wasnt us and we demand our freedom. Labour, after taking the Scottish votes for granted, can then sook up to middle England as much as they want.

[Beefster]

Wee Alex should play the waiting game, lets the condems make more cuts to public services over the next few years then shout it wasnt us and we demand our freedom. Labour, after taking the Scottish votes for granted, can then sook up to middle England as much as they want.

Surely, if there are any cuts to public services up here then it will be because the SNP chose to implement the cuts there? Just because Scotland is getting cuts to the grant doesn't mean that the SNP don't take responsibility for their spending decisions. If they can take credit for things like free prescriptions, using the grant, they can take the blame for cuts.

[tony higgins]

Heard the UK was last seen going into an A+E in Central London.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Helicopter eck :flying::partyhibb

[lucky]

I hope wee eck delivers on his promises this time. If the Scottish economy is to grow and jobs to be created he will have to one hell of a job to do both. I wish him very success. But if he does't we will be watching and holding him to account.

Down but not defeated. Scottish Labour will be back. But unfortunately not for a few years.:taxi

[cabbageandribs1875]

Plenty charisma for the job, but awkward them being already married and no children to perpetuate the bloodline. Next!


jackie bird :drool: and some random lucky man :cb

[bighairyfaeleith]

Look, I'm quite prepared to discuss these things with you or anyone else, but not if you are going to continue with the childish name calling.

For a start, we have lots we need to do but seeing "a really Scottish Labour Party" emerge isn't one of them. We already are "a really Scottish Labour Party".

:faf: are the tartan underpants brigade offending, oh you poor dear

[bighairyfaeleith]

Surely, if there are any cuts to public services up here then it will be because the SNP chose to implement the cuts there? Just because Scotland is getting cuts to the grant doesn't mean that the SNP don't take responsibility for their spending decisions. If they can take credit for things like free prescriptions, using the grant, they can take the blame for cuts.

To a point yes, obviously if the proportion of the grant was drastically higher in scotland then that comes down to london, however if it's not, and I have no reason to think it will be, then it's up to the snp how we cut things and hopefully there policies will be a little bit more sensible than those of down south.

No matter what though it will still be a tough few years.

[tony higgins]

I hope wee eck delivers on his promises this time. If the Scottish economy is to grow and jobs to be created he will have to one hell of a job to do both. I wish him very success. But if he does't we will be watching and holding him to account.

Down but not defeated. Scottish Labour will be back. But unfortunately not for a few years.:taxi

Maybe Labour will win the first election in an independent Scotland.

:wink:

[One Day Soon]

:faf: are the tartan underpants brigade offending, oh you poor dear

BNP didn't do too well last night did they?

[One Day Soon]

What was the turnout-about 50%?Numptieland right enough.

What do you mean by this?

[One Day Soon]

I am happy to understand more, but there is no such thing a 'really Scottish Labour Party.!!:aok:

Indeed, there is no such thing as 'Scottish Labour Party'

You should not be confused!:greengrin

Ok, I'll bite. Why is there no such thing?

[One Day Soon]

[QUOTE=Beefster;2795027]He was claiming that he wasn't going anywhere about 12 hours ago. It may be that he came to his senses on his own but it's likely that his parliamentary party (and the UK leadership) had their say too.

It was his own decision and actually I thought he delivered it with some dignity in the interview with Brian Taylor who, by the way, now suddenly looks absolutely enormous.

[ancienthibby]

I hope wee eck delivers on his promises this time. If the Scottish economy is to grow and jobs to be created he will have to one hell of a job to do both. I wish him very success. But if he does't we will be watching and holding him to account.

Down but not defeated. Scottish Labour will be back. But unfortunately not for a few years.:taxi

Have a real strong word with yourself, lucky!!:agree:

Your every forecast on this election lies in tatters.:greengrin

Your reported canvass returns are now shown to be a bunch of codswallop!!

For lucky: :taxi:taxi:taxi

[One Day Soon]

Heard the UK was last seen going into an A+E in Central London.

No I think you are confusing the UK (which Scots want to remain a part of) with Nick Clegg's political future. That is undergoing paramedic attention as the life ebbs out of the AV campaign.

And on that point let joy be unconfined as the LDs have psephological reality forcibly rammed right up the jacksie in what has been nemesis a long time coming.

[One Day Soon]

Maybe Labour will win the first election in an independent Scotland.

:wink:

We'll never know!

[tony higgins]

We'll never know!

:greengrin

[ancienthibby]

No I think you are confusing the UK (which Scots want to remain a part of) with Nick Clegg's political future. That is undergoing paramedic attention as the life ebbs out of the AV campaign.

And on that point let joy be unconfined as [B]the LDs have psephological reality forcibly rammed right up the jacksie in what has been nemesis a long time coming.


You just can't avoid reducing everything to your own completely crude level, can you??

Pathetic, utterly pathetic.

[Sylar]

I'd love to hold a hand-cannon to Kelvin McKenzie's head and empty a few magazines into his skull :agree:

[PaulSmith]

Don't really 'do' politics but take a keen interest these days and can honestly say that I am delighted to see the SNP have a majority in the SP.

[bighairyfaeleith]

BNP didn't do too well last night did they?

is that the best you've got:na na:

[Beefster]

It was his own decision and actually I thought he delivered it with some dignity in the interview with Brian Taylor who, by the way, now suddenly looks absolutely enormous.

Fair does. You're right - he came over much better in that interview than he has in the entire campaign / lifetime as an MSP in East Lothian and Brian Taylor is getting into Mr Creosote territory!

[HibeeSince85]

Sorry to be a pedant but they won't have a clear mandate to govern unless they win a majority. Even an arrangement with the Greens (or someone else) to produce a majority isn't a clear mandate.

That's the argument that's been used against the Coalition since last year despite the Tories having over 300 seats and their combined vote being around 60%.

No need to apologise what your saying was correct but as I have said from the beginning was that they would get a majority and therefor a mandate and that is what's happened.

I'm delighted Labour have took the bashing they deserved.

[marinello59]

No need to apologise what your saying was correct but as I have said from the beginning was that they would get a majority and therefor a mandate and that is what's happened.

I'm delighted Labour have took the bashing they deserved.

Impressive. Even the SNP strategists didn't expect a majority.

[HibeeSince85]

Impressive. Even the SNP strategists didn't expect a majority.


It is isn't it:greengrin

I said it here a few weeks back and was told it would never happen.

Roll on the 6th May 2011- yup an SNP majority, could see it a mile off,

[One Day Soon]

You just can't avoid reducing everything to your own completely crude level, can you??

Pathetic, utterly pathetic.

What have you taken offence over now? You were having such a lovely day as well.

[One Day Soon]

I'd love to hold a hand-cannon to Kelvin McKenzie's head and empty a few magazines into his skull :agree:

Why's that then, apart from the generally obvious?

[One Day Soon]

is that the best you've got:na na:

Its all I need Alf Garnett.

[Sylar]

Why's that then, apart from the generally obvious?

Need I expand beyond the obvious? :greengrin

They were interviewing "London" in relation to the SNP victory and their thoughts. As such, they decided to interview this troll (renowned for his anti-Scottish ideals) who said something to this effect:

"It's great news and I really hope they get their referendum and then succeed in getting their independence, because I don't want any Scots on my payroll".

*adjusts sights...*

[HibeeSince85]

Need I expand beyond the obvious? :greengrin

They were interviewing "London" in relation to the SNP victory and their thoughts. As such, they decided to interview this troll (renowned for his anti-Scottish ideals) who said something to this effect:

"It's great news and I really hope they get their referendum and then succeed in getting their independence, because I don't want any Scots on my payroll".

*adjusts sights...*

Wouldn't worry too much about that barium, a racist, simple as that.

[HibeeSince85]

That should be bafoon, damn iPhone spellcheck.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Its all I need Alf Garnett.

Who?

[bighairyfaeleith]

Need I expand beyond the obvious? :greengrin

They were interviewing "London" in relation to the SNP victory and their thoughts. As such, they decided to interview this troll (renowned for his anti-Scottish ideals) who said something to this effect:

"It's great news and I really hope they get their referendum and then succeed in getting their independence, because I don't want any Scots on my payroll".

*adjusts sights...*

Just seen that, this is what will be interesting, everyone else is desperate for a referendum date, but the snp are quite relaxed about. The english press will stoke the fire with the snp now being in charge and the more english that say things like the above the more independence will become likely.

I'm still undecided and want a lot more facts before I will vote for or against but if the opposition are not careful they may bring independence upon Scotland quicker than the snp could ever have dreamed of.

[cabbageandribs1875]

SAY HELLO..........




to another 5 years frozen cooncil tax :clapper::clapper::clapper::clapper::clapper: ya dancer :not worth

[bighairyfaeleith]

SAY HELLO..........




to another 5 years frozen cooncil tax :clapper::clapper::clapper::clapper::clapper: ya dancer :not worth

:thumbsup:

[Sir David Gray]

It's no doubt a great result for the SNP. It will be interesting to see how they handle being the first majority government in charge of Holyrood.

It will also be very interesting to see how they deal with the issue of an independence referendum. They had the excuse before that they didn't have the required parliamentary support for their Bill but now they do.

The one good thing to come out of this election is that it finally brings Labour's unhealthy strangehold over Scottish politics to an end. For far too long, people in Scotland have just voted Labour because it's Labour, without taking the time to think about their choices.

I just hope that this extends itself to the next UK election (if we're still a part of the Union by the time the next election takes place in 2015, of course).

I did not vote SNP, for reasons that I outlined earlier in this thread a few weeks ago. Now that they are back in charge, I fully expect to see more Gaelic road signs, more unsightly wind farms and more people being let out of prison early on compassionate grounds.

I saw Salmond earlier on with a big grin on his face, waving a saltire. Courtesy of Tripoli, perhaps? :rolleyes:

[bighairyfaeleith]

It's no doubt a great result for the SNP. It will be interesting to see how they handle being the first majority government in charge of Holyrood.

It will also be very interesting to see how they deal with the issue of an independence referendum. They had the excuse before that they didn't have the required parliamentary support for their Bill but now they do.

The one good thing to come out of this election is that it finally brings Labour's unhealthy strangehold over Scottish politics to an end. For far too long, people in Scotland have just voted Labour because it's Labour, without taking the time to think about their choices.

I just hope that this extends itself to the next UK election (if we're still a part of the Union by the time the next election takes place in 2015, of course).

I did not vote SNP, for reasons that I outlined earlier in this thread a few weeks ago. Now that they are back in charge, I fully expect to see more Gaelic road signs, more unsightly wind farms and more people being let out of prison early on compassionate grounds.

I saw Salmond earlier on with a big grin on his face, waving a saltire. Courtesy of Tripoli, perhaps? :rolleyes:

you almost avoided sounding bitter there:wink:

[Saorsa]

What a day, Fibdems all but wiped off the map for doing their deal with the devil, Scottish Liebour (party of Westminster) humiliated. Absolutely fantastic result for Alex Salmond, First Minister, and the SNP team tae achieve an overall majority in such an emphatic manner. Well done tae the voters of Scotland who had the courage and belief tae take on board the positive message of the SNP and dismiss the negative garbage and the constant doing down of Scotland and it's people by the Scottish Liebour (party of Westminster).

Personally I'd like tae thank Iain Gray, Scottish Liebour (party of Westminster) for his fantastic mismanagement of this campaign and the hilarity he has provided along the way :hilarious Please stay :agree:

[Saorsa]

It's no doubt a great result for the SNP. It will be interesting to see how they handle being the first majority government in charge of Holyrood.

It will also be very interesting to see how they deal with the issue of an independence referendum. They had the excuse before that they didn't have the required parliamentary support for their Bill but now they do.

The one good thing to come out of this election is that it finally brings Labour's unhealthy strangehold over Scottish politics to an end. For far too long, people in Scotland have just voted Labour because it's Labour, without taking the time to think about their choices.

I just hope that this extends itself to the next UK election (if we're still a part of the Union by the time the next election takes place in 2015, of course).

I did not vote SNP, for reasons that I outlined earlier in this thread a few weeks ago. Now that they are back in charge, I fully expect to see more Gaelic road signs, more unsightly wind farms and more people being let out of prison early on compassionate grounds.

I saw Salmond earlier on with a big grin on his face, waving a saltire. Courtesy of Tripoli, perhaps? :rolleyes:Grape? (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JNFvqLZICLI/TDD3uclvaaI/AAAAAAAAB0w/csXhZXkp2P4/s320/sour+grapes.jpg)

[Baw Baggio]

What a day, Fibdems all but wiped off the map for doing their deal with the devil, Scottish Liebour (party of Westminster) humiliated. Absolutely fantastic result for Alex Salmond, First Minister, and the SNP team tae achieve an overall majority in such an emphatic manner. Well done tae the voters of Scotland who had the courage and belief tae take on board the positive message of the SNP and dismiss the negative garbage and the constant doing down of Scotland and it's people by the Scottish Liebour (party of Westminster).

Personally I'd like tae thank Iain Gray, Scottish Liebour (party of Westminster) for his fantastic mismanagement of this campaign and the hilarity he has provided along the way :hilarious Please stay :agree:
Take a boo , Jamie :aok:

[Pete]

It's no doubt a great result for the SNP. It will be interesting to see how they handle being the first majority government in charge of Holyrood.

It will also be very interesting to see how they deal with the issue of an independence referendum. They had the excuse before that they didn't have the required parliamentary support for their Bill but now they do.

The one good thing to come out of this election is that it finally brings Labour's unhealthy strangehold over Scottish politics to an end. For far too long, people in Scotland have just voted Labour because it's Labour, without taking the time to think about their choices.

I just hope that this extends itself to the next UK election (if we're still a part of the Union by the time the next election takes place in 2015, of course).

I did not vote SNP, for reasons that I outlined earlier in this thread a few weeks ago. Now that they are back in charge, I fully expect to see more Gaelic road signs, more unsightly wind farms and more people being let out of prison early on compassionate grounds.

I saw Salmond earlier on with a big grin on his face, waving a saltire. Courtesy of Tripoli, perhaps? :rolleyes:

Get lost tory/lib-dem boy!

Your boys took one hell of a beating.:greengrin

[lucky]

[QUOTE=ancienthibby;2795109]Have a real strong word with yourself, lucky!!:agree:

Your every forecast on this election lies in tatters.:greengrin

Your reported canvass returns are now shown to be a bunch of codswallop!!

For lucky: :taxi:taxi:taxi[/QUO

Clearly the vote swung away over the last week in the campaign with every undecided going Nat along with all the Lib dems. That's politics but can you try and be a little gracious in victory your beginning to sound like a Yam!

Even the Nats canvass returns were not predicting this. But the voters have decided and we will get on with. The Labour Executive is meeting next Saturday to discuss a way forward and look at the party structure. Roll on next years council elections.:greengrin

But The challenges are there for wee eck. I'm not convinced how he will control his backbenchers. In last government not 1 ever voted against the party line. But as constituency MSP's they will be harder to control and he will have greater difficulty in threatening to remove them. Easy under the list to do so ask Margo.

I really hope the referendum is early in the parliament, lets decide the constitution once and for all and move on.

[ancienthibby]

[QUOTE=ancienthibby;2795109]Have a real strong word with yourself, lucky!!:agree:

Your every forecast on this election lies in tatters.:greengrin

Your reported canvass returns are now shown to be a bunch of codswallop!!

For lucky: :taxi:taxi:taxi[/QUO

Clearly the vote swung away over the last week in the campaign with every undecided going Nat along with all the Lib dems. That's politics but can you try and be a little gracious in victory your beginning to sound like a Yam!

Even the Nats canvass returns were not predicting this. But the voters have decided and we will get on with. The Labour Executive is meeting next Saturday to discuss a way forward and look at the party structure. Roll on next years council elections.:greengrin

But The challenges are there for wee eck. I'm not convinced how he will control his backbenchers. In last government not 1 ever voted against the party line. But as constituency MSP's they will be harder to control and he will have greater difficulty in threatening to remove them. Easy under the list to do so ask Margo.

I really hope the referendum is early in the parliament, lets decide the constitution once and for all and move on.


I think the way forward will be quite different from how you see it, as the SNP has already shown it will continue the gradualist approach that is its track record.

The referendum will not be held before year 3 or even 4, with the SNP government introducing key policies such as alcohol pricing and, immediately, an upgraded version of the Calman Scotland Bill. They will want the voters to have the benefit of that, plus continuing development of the renewables strategy, healthcare, freezing of Council Tax, etc, etc. If all these SNP policies are well received, it will be only then that the referendum will be held.

Alex Salmond is far too savvy to go early - he will want to hold all the new voters he has just won and continue to build on strong, good and responsive government.

[lucky]

[QUOTE=lucky;2795380]


I think the way forward will be quite different from how you see it, as the SNP has already shown it will continue the gradualist approach that is its track record.

The referendum will not be held before year 3 or even 4, with the SNP government introducing key policies such as alcohol pricing and, immediately, an upgraded version of the Calman Scotland Bill. They will want the voters to have the benefit of that, plus continuing development of the renewables strategy, healthcare, freezing of Council Tax, etc, etc. If all these SNP policies are well received, it will be only then that the referendum will be held.

Alex Salmond is far too savvy to go early - he will want to hold all the new voters he has just won and continue to build on strong, good and responsive government.

For once we agree. But I really think he will struggle with his renewables targets and I'm worried over the council tax freeze, I did not like the Labour version either, Local services have to be paid for. Even if they increased it by £10 per year it ease the burden on councils. Also ring fencing money has to allowed in council budgets. Huge challenges lie ahead for all. I want Scotland to succeed not fail as such Scottish Labour should play its part but not always agreeing with decisions of the Government but by being an effective opposition. I want the referendum ASAP as its a distraction and will effect OUR ability to attract outside investment. As would a Local income tax buts a different debate.

As I have said in previous posts to the Victors the spoils. Enjoy government but its not a popular place and wee eck might not like being held accountable for the next five years.

[Beefster]

There's a lot of folk don't really know how to conduct themselves in victory, it would appear. They must be the sort of folk that do 4 victory laps of the living room when they beat the missus and bairn at Hungry Hippos.

[ancienthibby]

[QUOTE=ancienthibby;2795392]

For once we agree. But I really think he will struggle with his renewables targets and I'm worried over the council tax freeze, I did not like the Labour version either, Local services have to be paid for. Even if they increased it by £10 per year it ease the burden on councils. Also ring fencing money has to allowed in council budgets. Huge challenges lie ahead for all. I want Scotland to succeed not fail as such Scottish Labour should play its part but not always agreeing with decisions of the Government but by being an effective opposition. I want the referendum ASAP as its a distraction and will effect OUR ability to attract outside investment. As would a Local income tax buts a different debate.

As I have said in previous posts to the Victors the spoils. Enjoy government but its not a popular place and wee eck might not like being held accountable for the next five years.

I have to go out now, so just a couple of quick points.

First, the distraction of the referendum will be provided by the opposition parties, if they so shoose, not by the SNP.

Second, the number of key high-0profile businessmen who have already endorsed the SNP suggest that businesses are already comfortable with an SNP government.

Third, international investment has got a tremendous record in investing in countries with the most henious dictatorships and military juntas. Scotland is a haven of peace by comparision.

The referendum will be held in Sep/Oct!!:devil: 2014

[marinello59]

SAY HELLO..........




to another 5 years frozen cooncil tax :clapper::clapper::clapper::clapper::clapper: ya dancer :not worth

We'll pay in other ways. Nothing is free.

[lucky]

[QUOTE=lucky;2795398]

I have to go out now, so just a couple of quick points.

First, the distraction of the referendum will be provided by the opposition parties, if they so shoose, not by the SNP.

Second, the number of key high-0profile businessmen who have already endorsed the SNP suggest that businesses are already comfortable with an SNP government.

Third, international investment has got a tremendous record in investing in countries with the most henious dictatorships and military juntas. Scotland is a haven of peace by comparision.

The referendum will be held in Sep/Oct!!:devil: 2014

The date being touted is 26.06.14 as apparently its the closest day to the 700 years anniversary of the battle of Bannockburn. I like the way we have move on as a nation :greengrin

[IWasThere2016]

Take a boo , Jamie :aok:

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO JAMIE! :greengrin

[Woody1985]

Hahaha to the guy going on about how labour were romping it. was that designed to put non labour voters off from voting.

I personally never voted but thought it was perfect when the snp took the last 3 out of 3 to get the majority.

Hopefully we'll get rid of those sad excuses for politicians for a long time yet.

[One Day Soon]

[QUOTE=ancienthibby;2795392]

For once we agree. But I really think he will struggle with his renewables targets and I'm worried over the council tax freeze, I did not like the Labour version either, Local services have to be paid for. Even if they increased it by £10 per year it ease the burden on councils. Also ring fencing money has to allowed in council budgets. Huge challenges lie ahead for all. I want Scotland to succeed not fail as such Scottish Labour should play its part but not always agreeing with decisions of the Government but by being an effective opposition. I want the referendum ASAP as its a distraction and will effect OUR ability to attract outside investment. As would a Local income tax buts a different debate.

As I have said in previous posts to the Victors the spoils. Enjoy government but its not a popular place and wee eck might not like being held accountable for the next five years.

I don't know whether you can put it down to either Independence obsession or just bad government but during the last four years under the SNP Scotland slipped from 1st place to fourth in terms of inward investment success among regions of the UK. That's a pretty worrying statistic given the difficulty of getting the banks to loan and invest domestically.

[Beefster]

I don't know whether you can put it down to either Independence obsession or just bad government but during the last four years under the SNP Scotland slipped from 1st place to fourth in terms of inward investment success among regions of the UK. That's a pretty worrying statistic given the difficulty of getting the banks to loan and invest domestically.

Wasn't aware of that. That's the sort of thing that Labour should have been making a big song and dance about during the campaign. Things like free prescriptions and bridge tolls are fripperies compared to stuff like this.

[marinello59]

Hahaha to the guy going on about how labour were romping it. was that designed to put non labour voters off from voting.

I personally never voted but thought it was perfect when the snp took the last 3 out of 3 to get the majority.

Hopefully we'll get rid of those sad excuses for politicians for a long time yet.

You might have to change your own strategy then. :greengrin

[One Day Soon]

Wasn't aware of that. That's the sort of thing that Labour should have been making a big song and dance about during the campaign. Things like free prescriptions and bridge tolls are fripperies compared to stuff like this.

They did but the media wouldn't run it. We do have a pretty poor media - and to be fair I think that ill serves the political process and all of the parties.

It was partly because the media were hostile to Labour as they rightly perceived the Scottish party as fossilised, complacent and unimaginative and partly because by allowing the election to become all about Salmond versus Gray the party made it much harder to get issues of policy and substance up.

The interest of the next five years politically in Scotland will in my view lie in whether Salmond's consumate leadership and political skills can triumph over the chasm between SNP election committments and the public sector funding wreck.

Five years with no one else to blame, in the context of massively over promising on under costed policies and deferred decisions on making cuts means something has to give.

Anyway getting this stuff visible would not have made a lot of difference in this election. Scotland voted in a large chunk in this election for no pain so the intrusion of reality would simply have been ignored. The next three years in particular are going to shock a lot of people.

[One Day Soon]

You might have to change your own strategy then. :greengrin

My very favourite kind of politician. The armchair ones who cannot even bother to vote.

[twiceinathens]

In attempt to avoid the more hysterical extremes of triumphalism and bitterness expressed on this board may I comment on on my own process of deliberation before casting my vote in this election.
As a matter of fact I belong to the age group which is more likely to vote and therefore actually affecting the result.
Holding distinctly left of centre of views I have voted Labour for the best part of 50 years. However I am prepared to consider before casting my vote.
When the last minority SNP administration was elected I was disappointed in the "who stole my rattle" or "how could they be so stupid" reaction of the party.
And so to the current election. Was I satisfied with what had been done? On balance I felt enough had been done to merit to giving them a second opportunity.
For me the labour party became fixated with the Independence issue. Yes I am perfectly well aware that the raison d'etre of the SNP is an Independent Scotland but this will only come if and when the electorate as a whole - or that part of it which votes - agrees. Personally I will deal with that when it arises.

[GhostofBolivar]

Iain Gray

http://www.siteoffline.com/files/glenn_quagmire_1920x1200.png

Quagmire

http://www.journal-online.co.uk/media/images/4632/4632_250.jpg?1227502162

[Beefster]

Tavish Scott resigns now.

[ancienthibby]

Tavish Scott resigns now.

Big issue now for both LibDems and Labour is that their benches are not exactly full of quality candidates.

Have not heard that either leader will be giving up their Holyrood seat thus creating a bye-election.

If that happened, I'd imagine the LibDems would still get in in Shetland, but you'd need to think that the SNP would then take East Lothian, even against a 'drop-in' candidate such as Jim Murphy.

Asked the question yesterday, how do you Labourites fancy Ken MacKintosh as a new Labour leader.

Mind you, I always thought he was a dance band leader at the same time as Ted Heath!!:greengrin

[da-robster]

Who?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alf_Garnett

[DaveF]

The next three years in particular are going to shock a lot of people.

And they would have shocked people no matter what government was in place.

Although you stated earlier in this thread that Labour's gross negligence to the balancing of books worried you, I find it a little odd to see you take great relish in seeing how the SNP government handles the cuts which a Labour government did it's best to saddle the country with.

[bighairyfaeleith]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alf_Garnett

before my time:greengrin

[One Day Soon]

And they would have shocked people no matter what government was in place.

Yes they would/will.

Although you stated earlier in this thread that Labour's gross negligence to the balancing of books worried you, I find it a little odd to see you take great relish in seeing how the SNP government handles the cuts which a Labour government did it's best to saddle the country with.

I did not say that "Labour's gross negligence to the balancing of books worried" me. That is your paraphrasing and a misrepresentation. I said that the deficit concerned me.

What is odd in wanting to see how Salmond and the SNP get on with government as a majority bloc? This is the first time in his and their history that instead of being able to blame others, spin and claim that everything would be better if only etc they will have the opportunity to be tested on their own merits.

The fact that their manifesto was written in the expectation of either losing altogether or having to form a coalition, thereby giving cover for 'having' to ditch manifesto committments later, will make all the more interesting how they explain having all of the power and all of the responsibility as against the decisions they take on spending and on policy.

The suggestion that Labour "did its best" to saddle the country with cuts is just daft. Maybe you think that Gordon Brown should just have let Bank of Scotland and Royal Bank of Scotland go to the wall taking thousands of jobs with them and wrecking the Lothians economy to boot? Or that in the recession the government should just have followed a fiscally dry policy and driven us deeper into recession?

[DaveF]

What is odd in wanting to see how Salmond and the SNP get on with government as a majority bloc?

There is nothing in odd in that at all. It's the relish in the tone of your posts to a situation of your party's making that I find a little odd.


The suggestion that Labour "did its best" to saddle the country with cuts is just daft. Maybe you think that Gordon Brown should just have let Bank of Scotland and Royal Bank of Scotland go to the wall taking thousands of jobs with them and wrecking the Lothians economy to boot? Or that in the recession the government should just have followed a fiscally dry policy and driven us deeper into recession?

Or spend billions (I'm assuming it ran into billions, if not I'm sure you will correct me) in a pointless war in Iraq......

Anyway, I'll take my leave from this thread now.

I'm under no illusions that Scotland suddenly became a better place just because of thursday's result, but I do think it has made the right choice and while there is much pain ahead I have more faith in the SNP government to get it right rather than the gloved puppet Scottish Labour has become.

[One Day Soon]

There is nothing in odd in that at all. It's the relish in the tone of your posts to a situation of your party's making that I find a little odd.

Good idea Dave, let's just ignore the global recession that drove us and everyone else into economic trouble and blame Labour instead.

Or spend billions (I'm assuming it ran into billions, if not I'm sure you will correct me) in a pointless war in Iraq......

Another great idea, let's assume it was billions.

Anyway, I'll take my leave from this thread now.

I'm under no illusions that Scotland suddenly became a better place just because of thursday's result, but I do think it has made the right choice and while there is much pain ahead I have more faith in the SNP government to get it right rather than the gloved puppet Scottish Labour has become.

'Gloved puppet' eh? I have no idea what you mean by that and I'm not sure you do either.

Still, following the release of Megrahi, Salmond's advice to English electors to vote Lib Dem, the destruction of Salmond's vaunted Arc of Prosperity economic model and the gutless failure to even bring a debate on the independence referendum to parliament, I'm sure you are right to put your faith in the SNP government to "get it right".

[bighairyfaeleith]

'Gloved puppet' eh? I have no idea what you mean by that and I'm not sure you do either.

Still, following the release of Megrahi, Salmond's advice to English electors to vote Lib Dem, the destruction of Salmond's vaunted Arc of Prosperity economic model and the gutless failure to even bring a debate on the independence referendum to parliament, I'm sure you are right to put your faith in the SNP government to "get it right".

oooh your hurting:greengrin

[bighairyfaeleith]

Big issue now for both LibDems and Labour is that their benches are not exactly full of quality candidates.

Have not heard that either leader will be giving up their Holyrood seat thus creating a bye-election.

If that happened, I'd imagine the LibDems would still get in in Shetland, but you'd need to think that the SNP would then take East Lothian, even against a 'drop-in' candidate such as Jim Murphy.

Asked the question yesterday, how do you Labourites fancy Ken MacKintosh as a new Labour leader.

Mind you, I always thought he was a dance band leader at the same time as Ted Heath!!:greengrin

There benches are not even full, never mind with quality candidates:wink:

[One Day Soon]

oooh your hurting:greengrin

Your usual informed contribution I see. What next, a chant of 'fat Eddie Murphy' perhaps?

[One Day Soon]

There benches are not even full, never mind with quality candidates:wink:

By definition their (not 'there') benches must be full.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

There benches are not even full, never mind with quality candidates:wink:

I think this is a good point, in will have major implications for both of them in choosing their next leader. Lib Dems almost dont have a choice, seen as there are only five of them and one of them has just resigned.

As for Labour, i dont know what will happen swith them, but the way their supporters argue and pick fights is to me, indicative of their problem. Ever since 2007, it seems to me that they cannot 'get' that they need to listen and stop talking for once. The times when Scottish people en masse, simply listened to and trusted everything labour said have gone. They still dont get it though.

This rout has the potential to be the best thing that has happened for Labour for a long time, if they do genuinely change. I do have my doubts about that though, as anecdotally, there is a real dearth of smart, innovative young talent coming through - something that could be made more apparent by some of the people elected from their regional lists who, to be frank, were simply not supposed to get elected - a result of the Labour hubris that told them they didnt need to 'bother' with regional lists. (a problem that the SNP might also face due to their unexpectedly good result on the list).

[bighairyfaeleith]

By definition their (not 'there') benches must be full.

Its easy to tell when you are beat in an argument, you get pedantic. People that think there intelligent often do it.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Your usual informed contribution I see. What next, a chant of 'fat Eddie Murphy' perhaps?

Aye if only wee eck was black

[One Day Soon]

I think this is a good point, in will have major implications for both of them in choosing their next leader. Lib Dems almost dont have a choice, seen as there are only five of them and one of them has just resigned.

As for Labour, i dont know what will happen swith them, but the way their supporters argue and pick fights is to me, indicative of their problem. Ever since 2007, it seems to me that they cannot 'get' that they need to listen and stop talking for once. The times when Scottish people en masse, simply listened to and trusted everything labour said have gone. They still dont get it though.

This rout has the potential to be the best thing that has happened for Labour for a long time, if they do genuinely change. I do have my doubts about that though, as anecdotally, there is a real dearth of smart, innovative young talent coming through - something that could be made more apparent by some of the people elected from their regional lists who, to be frank, were simply not supposed to get elected - a result of the Labour hubris that told them they didnt need to 'bother' with regional lists. (a problem that the SNP might also face due to their unexpectedly good result on the list).

Are you seriously suggesting that Alex Salmond and the SNP should not be challenged and questioned?

[One Day Soon]

Its easy to tell when you are beat in an argument, you get pedantic. People that think there intelligent often do it.

I tell you what, if you get round to advancing an argument at any point I will try to engage with it. How's that?

[allmodcons]

Fantastic night for the nats. Congratulations to wee eck. I'm gutted.

Just been catching up with thread!!!

Much respect Lucky:not worth

[One Day Soon]

Aye if only wee eck was black

He's definitely not wee and and he's definitely not black.

You thought it was a good idea to vote Lib Dem last time (mind you so did Alex Salmond), I wonder if you will be similarly rewarded this time?

[cabbageandribs1875]

We'll pay in other ways. Nothing is free.

and fine i know that, i have a personal hatred of the poll tax/community charge(like most i guess) i wouldnt mind paying an extra 1/2/3p in the pound to do away with the damn thing altogether :agree: i have no idea whatsoever what the figures needed to do that would be:greengrin FWIW i think the SNP made a huge mistake by making all prescription charges free, they could have just had a 50% reduction and that would have been a result ( now £7.40 in engerlund) or even capped the charge at £2/3 etc ? i also disagree with keeping the English royalty even if independence were to become a reality :agree: although i have the utmost respect for lizzie, the rest can go whistle

[GhostofBolivar]

I'm just stunned at how much Iain Gray looks like Quagmire from Family Guy.

[bighairyfaeleith]

I tell you what, if you get round to advancing an argument at any point I will try to engage with it. How's that?

But you just ignore posts that advance the argument, you have been doing it on these threads for weeks. You'd rather engage in tittle tattle arguments bringing it down to tartan underpants level rather than actually discussing the issue sensibly, I have just been accommodating you:greengrin

[bighairyfaeleith]

I'm just stunned at how much Iain Gray looks like Quagmire from Family Guy.

I'm stunned at how little his face moves when he talks, I think it might actually be a mask!

[Beefster]

and fine i know that, i have a personal hatred of the poll tax/community charge(like most i guess) i wouldnt mind paying an extra 1/2/3p in the pound to do away with the damn thing altogether :agree: i have no idea whatsoever what the figures needed to do that would be:greengrin FWIW i think the SNP made a huge mistake by making all prescription charges free, they could have just had a 50% reduction and that would have been a result ( now £7.40 in engerlund) or even capped the charge at £2/3 etc ? i also disagree with keeping the English royalty even if independence were to become a reality :agree: although i have the utmost respect for lizzie, the rest can go whistle

What's the fundamental differences between a local income tax and the poll tax? I thought that objection to the poll tax (which I hated as it meant I had to shell out much of my hard-earned as soon as I turned 18) was that it was on the person rather than the property?

The council tax bears no resemblance to the poll tax though.

[CropleyWasGod]

What's the fundamental differences between a local income tax and the poll tax? I thought that objection to the poll tax (which I hated as it meant I had to shell out much of my hard-earned as soon as I turned 18) was that it was on the person rather than the property?

The council tax bears no resemblance to the poll tax though.

LIT is based on income, which usually equates to ability to pay. Poll Tax took no heed of ability to pay. Indeed, CT doesn't do that either, in that it is based on the type of property you live in, broadly irrespective of your income.

[marinello59]

I'm stunned at how little his face moves when he talks, I think it might actually be a mask!

It is a mask.
Ed Milliband has sent Scooby Doo and the gang in to find out who he really is. :agree:

[Beefster]

LIT is based on income, which usually equates to ability to pay. Poll Tax took no heed of ability to pay. Indeed, CT doesn't do that either, in that it is based on the type of property you live in, broadly irrespective of your income.

So someone rich, who lives in a big house but doesn't need to work will pay less until the LIC?

I'm not defending either system btw, just trying to show that there is no 'ideal' solution. As far as I am aware though, there are plenty of folk pay reduced or no council tax so it's not strictly 'income ignorant'.

[CropleyWasGod]

So someone rich, who lives in a big house but doesn't need to work will pay less until the LIC?

I'm not defending either system btw, just trying to show that there is no 'ideal' solution. As far as I am aware though, there are plenty of folk pay reduced or no council tax so it's not strictly 'income ignorant'.

I did use the word "broadly" :wink:

There are some who might say that those who use Council services the most should pay the most... and that's likely to be lower income families. But that's me throwing a wee grenade into the discussion ........

[Beefster]

I did use the word "broadly" :wink:

There are some who might say that those who use Council services the most should pay the most... and that's likely to be lower income families. But that's me throwing a wee grenade into the discussion ........

I was going to make that point too but thought I'd get "typical Tory" thrown at me!

[CropleyWasGod]

I was going to make that point too but thought I'd get "typical Tory" thrown at me!

If you go down that road, you would also have to accept that principle for national Income Tax, ie that it's the less well-off who use state schools and the NHS, therefore they should pay more than those who go private.

But that all flies in the face of the underlying principle of progressive taxation, that those who earn more pay more, in order that the better-off help the less well-off.

[Beefster]

If you go down that road, you would also have to accept that principle for national Income Tax, ie that it's the less well-off who use state schools and the NHS, therefore they should pay more than those who go private.

But that all flies in the face of the underlying principle of progressive taxation, that those who earn more pay more, in order that the better-off help the less well-off.

Don't worry, I don't genuinely believe that services should be on a pay-as-you-use basis!

[hibsbollah]

Fantastic night for the nats. Congratulations to wee eck. I'm gutted.

A classy response for which you deserve credit. Id be interested if the canvassing REALLY showed the results you predicted (in which case you should be more cautious in trusting them in future), or whether you were trying to keep the hibs.nat vote at home (in which case you are a dedicated macchiavellian schemer) :-)

[CropleyWasGod]

Don't worry, I don't genuinely believe that services should be on a pay-as-you-use basis!

Commie :greengrin

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Are you seriously suggesting that Alex Salmond and the SNP should not be challenged and questioned?

No of course not, i wasnt meaning in parliament, i was meaning in places like here.

You are a good example if i may be so bold - i dont think i have seen you make a single positive point about what you believe in, or what you would like to see - jusy negative comments having a go at others.

Why not argue for something as opposed to against everything?

[Beefster]

No of course not, i wasnt meaning in parliament, i was meaning in places like here.

You are a good example if i may be so bold - i dont think i have seen you make a single positive point about what you believe in, or what you would like to see - jusy negative comments having a go at others.

Why not argue for something as opposed to against everything?

In the defence of ODS, lucky and co, part of political campaigning is pointing out failures or weaknesses in the governing party's performance. To not review the performance of the government would be negligent.

The SNP could run a more positive campaign because they didn't have a government to trash, only a record to defend.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

In the defence of ODS, lucky and co, part of political campaigning is pointing out failures or weaknesses in the governing party's performance. To not review the performance of the government would be negligent.

The SNP could run a more positive campaign because they didn't have a government to trash, only a record to defend.

True, but if ever a party was in dire need of some introspection, it is Scottish Labour. In saying that, they also need to stop being so parochial - do they not realise that caffeinated alcohol, knife crime and to a lesser extent, youth unemployment are simply not that big issues outside of west-central Scotland.

The best thing Labour could do is get in a team of non-Labour supporters to break the decdes of group-think and intellectual malaise that has taken them from a position of hegemony to a position of (terminal?) collapse.

As somebody on the TV pointed out, the Tories used to be very popular up here, but history can and does consign parties to the dustbin, and given the demographic pressures facing Labour in particular, as well as the very obvious organisational problems and their completely conservative mindset, i think they are facing the same prospect IF they dont react properly to this very serious warning.

[One Day Soon]

But you just ignore posts that advance the argument, you have been doing it on these threads for weeks. You'd rather engage in tittle tattle arguments bringing it down to tartan underpants level rather than actually discussing the issue sensibly, I have just been accommodating you:greengrin

Quote me a single example where you have advanced an argument to me or asked a question - other than the flippant or abusive - and where I have not engaged.

You may not like my debating style - which is certainly very robust where I feel someone is either making it up as they go along or deliberately distorting the truth - but accusing me of not engaging with the debate is just shallow and wrong. For example, you asked for figures on the issue of the Scottish deficit/surplus on another thread and when I gave them you stayed silent. I'm well aware that you only asked to make a point since I had done the same thing earlier in the discussion, but when I produce some evidence you are posted missing.

So I say again, you advance an argument and I will engage with it.

As for you accommodating me, do me a favour. I would be perfectly happy if you don't respond to any of my posts at all. So if you have been 'accommodating' me , please feel free not to.

I have no problem engaging with people who have completely opposite opinions to mine - such as Hainan, Mountcastle and Beefster. They give as good as they get, they don't get knicker twisted about it and they generally offer arguments rather than doing the posting equivalent of the wee kid throwing stones and running away. So either find an opinion and pile in, or I suggest you just stop responding to my posts.

Fair enough?

[steakbake]

In the final two weeks of campaigning, Labour, the Tories and LDs gave the electorate a clear choice: us or the "separatist" SNP. We have a resounding result. The first time that the Parliament has been led my a majority government and some substantial victories in what were once considered Labour heartlands... even on Gordon Brown's own turf - and he's the man who saved the world!!

http://www.compassonline.org.uk/news/item.asp?n=1899 is an article by Gerry Hassan written almost 3 years ago to the day. It is as relevant now as it was then if not more so, given that's two Scottish elections now that Labour (and the others) have been out-thought and out-manoeuvred by the SNP.

The SNP are not fools, idiots, marginal crackpots with a narrow agenda. They are a very slick electoral machine, a modern political party with some very considerable intellectual ability advising them, working for them and planning for them. Many people who are as tribally against the SNP as the recent Labour party in Scotland have been, simply do not give them enough credit and as Hassan says, almost view them as an illegitimate and inherently incompetent party... very much like one or two people on here have done before and amazingly, even after the result we've seen.

What Thursday's result shows is that the opposition parties at Holyrood have failed to learn anything from 2007 and by the way Ken MacIntosh MSP was going on on Politics Scotland this morning, they'll not be learning anything new from 2011 either.

[One Day Soon]

True, but if ever a party was in dire need of some introspection, it is Scottish Labour. In saying that, they also need to stop being so parochial - do they not realise that caffeinated alcohol, knife crime and to a lesser extent, youth unemployment are simply not that big issues outside of west-central Scotland.

The best thing Labour could do is get in a team of non-Labour supporters to break the decdes of group-think and intellectual malaise that has taken them from a position of hegemony to a position of (terminal?) collapse.

As somebody on the TV pointed out, the Tories used to be very popular up here, but history can and does consign parties to the dustbin, and given the demographic pressures facing Labour in particular, as well as the very obvious organisational problems and their completely conservative mindset, i think they are facing the same prospect IF they dont react properly to this very serious warning.

It may come as some comfort/relief/surprise to you to know that I agree with just about every word of that post.

This election result actually gives the Scottish Labour Party the best opportunity to completely rethink and reinvent itself that it has had in probably more than 50 years. I think that people in Scotland want to see Labour refreshed, relevant, listening and strong again. But only on the basis of a party that is genuinely rooted in the reality of people's everyday lives, with representatives who are talented and worthy of public trust and with a policy programme capable of making Scotland all that it can be.

To get there some honest and hard self evaluation is required.

[One Day Soon]

In the final two weeks of campaigning, Labour, the Tories and LDs gave the electorate a clear choice: us or the "separatist" SNP. We have a resounding result. The first time that the Parliament has been led my a majority government and some substantial victories in what were once considered Labour heartlands... even on Gordon Brown's own turf - and he's the man who saved the world!!

http://www.compassonline.org.uk/news/item.asp?n=1899 is an article by Gerry Hassan written almost 3 years ago to the day. It is as relevant now as it was then if not more so, given that's two Scottish elections now that Labour (and the others) have been out-thought and out-manoeuvred by the SNP.

The SNP are not fools, idiots, marginal crackpots with a narrow agenda. They are a very slick electoral machine, a modern political party with some very considerable intellectual ability advising them, working for them and planning for them. Many people who are as tribally against the SNP as the recent Labour party in Scotland have been, simply do not give them enough credit and as Hassan says, almost view them as an illegitimate and inherently incompetent party... very much like one or two people on here have done before and amazingly, even after the result we've seen.

What Thursday's result shows is that the opposition parties at Holyrood have failed to learn anything from 2007 and by the way Ken MacIntosh MSP was going on on Politics Scotland this morning, they'll not be learning anything new from 2011 either.

Just so. But the lesson that needs to be learned is a complicated one composed of many parts, like a mosaic. The actual result - an overall majority - makes the Nats look stronger and the opposition weaker in voting terms than they both really are. That's not to downplay the consequences of the election in parliamentary terms, just to say that this is a subtle and sophisticated picture with opportunities and bear traps waiting for all sides.

But I do not think that political and electoral strength should be confused with governmental strength. These are two very different beasts.

And I don't know why the angry face is in this post, I didn't put it there and couldn't edit it to get rid of it.

[One Day Soon]

No of course not, i wasnt meaning in parliament, i was meaning in places like here.

You are a good example if i may be so bold - i dont think i have seen you make a single positive point about what you believe in, or what you would like to see - jusy negative comments having a go at others.

Why not argue for something as opposed to against everything?

Perhaps there was little in the Labour 'manifesto' that I was inclined to argue for? I have a very clear view as to what I believe in but that wasn't really on offer in this campaign. In fact there was little policy or substance on offer generally at all from anyone.

Most of my posts that were critical of the SNP were in response to those who were offering uncritical praise of their record and their leader. It is a record with very large holes in it and as a governing party of four years I think it is perfectly reasonable to point those out. Particularly so in the context of a pretty vile, negative and sustained character assassination of Iain Gray (however merited or otherwise the attacks on him may have been) in which he was portrayed as an utterly worthless individual (which is manifestly not the case).

All I have done is emphasise four areas in which I feel Salmond's judgment has been found badly wrong - the release of Megrahi, the failed Arc of Prosperity economic policy, the advice to English voters to support the Lib Dems last year and the failure to bring even a debate on the independence referendum before parliament.

The good thing is that with 5 years of SNP government ahead of us we are going to have plenty of opportunities to debate the merits and demerits of Salmond's majority government. Time to start a new thread on that subject perhaps?

[steakbake]

The SNP as a party put forward what most commentators observed as a positive campaign, based on their agenda and what they felt to be a relatively good record of governance, given the circumstances of that.

When the man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing was released, we were told it had made the SNP totally unelectable. MacAskill faced the voters and increased his majority. Doesn't make the decision right or wrong, but I think it certainly shows that Megrahi wasn't the issue that Labour wanted to make it, especially when details of their own double dealing was shown up.

In terms of the arc of prosperity, our own UK is far from out of the financial woods yet and has not balanced its books for many, many years, even preceding this financial crisis. We may yet join the arc of insolvency! So let's not pretend that Scottish independence and a Scotland outside of the UK can be contrasted against a backdrop of longstanding UK financial probity, stability and viability, or that growth in the economy is a uniquely UK phenomenon and that collapses are for everyone else. It quite simply isn't the case.

Remember, we asked the IMF for help in 1976, (the last time Labour ruined the economy...) we were in a Union then...

In terms of the LibDem vote and the independence referendum, I think in both counts, Salmond made political calculations. Time will tell on the independence vote, but in terms of political tactics, I cannot think of anything better than to see one set of your opponents voted out and replaced with not just one but both of your remaining large scale opponents to head up a very unpopular and awkward marriage of convenience in Westminster. Whether English voters listened to Salmond or not is a matter of conjecture, but even that presents a bit of a dilemma to some Labour supporters: he's either a credible political heavyweight or he's a parochial pariah with very little influence outside of Edinburgh. We can all agree he's a heavyweight, though.

Finally, let's not be mistaken into thinking otherwise than it was Iain Gray himself who wished to make the Scottish Elections a personality contest and that he was willing to "fight dirty". He even gathered a decent whack of column inches with that particular mode of attack, including an exclusive interview, unveiling his plans on 26th December 2010 in the Scotland on Sunday: http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/news/Iain-Gray-gets-personal-as.6671599.jp

When it transpired that in terms of a personality contest, Iain Gray had very little to offer compared to Salmond, then he decided to change his tactics into a very base dog-whistle to the Scottish anti-Tory vote and the usual fear-mongering about an independent Scotland. He kicked that particular hornets' nest, got stung and was humbled as a result. I don't feel particularly sorry for him, what with his 50k a year job secure for the next 5 years besides, he was in Chile just days after Pinochet left office and he's walked the killing fields of Cambodia and Rwanda, don't you know... he can clearly handle himself.

I'm sure he's big enough to realise that a few faceless insults on websites do not an orchestrated political campaign make. If he doesn't, then perhaps he should have stuck to being a school teacher, where the kids would no doubt have only good things to say about him on facebook and any criticism he did hear from them would be measured, constructive and in no way at all childish...?

[bighairyfaeleith]

Quote me a single example where you have advanced an argument to me or asked a question - other than the flippant or abusive - and where I have not engaged.

You may not like my debating style - which is certainly very robust where I feel someone is either making it up as they go along or deliberately distorting the truth - but accusing me of not engaging with the debate is just shallow and wrong. For example, you asked for figures on the issue of the Scottish deficit/surplus on another thread and when I gave them you stayed silent. I'm well aware that you only asked to make a point since I had done the same thing earlier in the discussion, but when I produce some evidence you are posted missing.

So I say again, you advance an argument and I will engage with it.

As for you accommodating me, do me a favour. I would be perfectly happy if you don't respond to any of my posts at all. So if you have been 'accommodating' me , please feel free not to.

I have no problem engaging with people who have completely opposite opinions to mine - such as Hainan, Mountcastle and Beefster. They give as good as they get, they don't get knicker twisted about it and they generally offer arguments rather than doing the posting equivalent of the wee kid throwing stones and running away. So either find an opinion and pile in, or I suggest you just stop responding to my posts.

Fair enough?

you did post evidence, as I thought that was fair enough I didn't argue it.

The rest of your post is pretty much pants though, and I'm sure you would love me not to respond to your posts, but there just so funny that I can't help myself:greengrin

[One Day Soon]

I think that's a very thoughtful and interesting post, though not one I agree with.


The SNP as a party put forward what most commentators observed as a positive campaign, based on their agenda and what they felt to be a relatively good record of governance, given the circumstances of that.

Of course they did. That's what the governing party always does and what it has to do.

When the man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing was released, we were told it had made the SNP totally unelectable. MacAskill faced the voters and increased his majority. Doesn't make the decision right or wrong, but I think it certainly shows that Megrahi wasn't the issue that Labour wanted to make it, especially when details of their own double dealing was shown up.

Scotland's greatest mass murder was released on the grounds he was about to die. He's still around. Labour didn't appear to make or even try to make much of this in the election. My view is that this was an appallingly wrong decision - in fact I would go so far as to say that the political calculation was made that this would make Scotland 'look big' and grown up by standing up to the US government. In the context of the Scotland wide sweep last thursday I'm not sure we can draw any conclusion from MacAskill's result other than that he benefitted from the country wide swing to the SNP. Whatever the UK government's position was on the prospective release the actual decision fell entirely and exclusively to the SNP govt in Scotland. Clearly we will just have to agree to differ on this one though.

In terms of the arc of prosperity, our own UK is far from out of the financial woods yet and has not balanced its books for many, many years, even preceding this financial crisis. We may yet join the arc of insolvency! So let's not pretend that Scottish independence and a Scotland outside of the UK can be contrasted against a backdrop of longstanding UK financial probity, stability and viability, or that growth in the economy is a uniquely UK phenomenon and that collapses are for everyone else. It quite simply isn't the case.

Remember, we asked the IMF for help in 1976, (the last time Labour ruined the economy...) we were in a Union then...

The UK has been running since 1707. I'm not sure that it's economy has at any time been broken in the way that those of both Iceland and Ireland have. These were the economies which Salmond constantly trumpeted as the models for a Scottish Celtic tiger economy - in other words had we been independent this is the path he wanted to take us on as part of those countries forming an 'Arc of Prosperity'. He never mentions them now. Why is that? Because to do so would draw attention to the fact that he got his judgement wrong on the economic path for Scotland and that had we been in their position we too would now be completely owned by the IMF, the EU and the international money markets.

A Scottish economy in which we have control of taxation might be one thing, trying to control - for example - inflation would be quite another. Our interest rates would in practice be set by whatever was the going rate in the remaining rest of the UK as we would have no effective mechanism and certainly not the scale to act independently of the rest of the UK economy. And certainly both our banks would now be bust had we been independent.

In terms of the LibDem vote and the independence referendum, I think in both counts, Salmond made political calculations. Time will tell on the independence vote, but in terms of political tactics, I cannot think of anything better than to see one set of your opponents voted out and replaced with not just one but both of your remaining large scale opponents to head up a very unpopular and awkward marriage of convenience in Westminster. Whether English voters listened to Salmond or not is a matter of conjecture, but even that presents a bit of a dilemma to some Labour supporters: he's either a credible political heavyweight or he's a parochial pariah with very little influence outside of Edinburgh. We can all agree he's a heavyweight, though.

He certainly did make political calculations. In other words his judgment was to put party before country by encouraging a hung parliament in which the Lib Dems would hold the balance of power. He got his wish and as a result we have a UK government which is cutting harder and faster than is necessary and which will see many more people unemployed and more savage cuts to public services than are necessary. If your assessment is correct on why he chose to do what he did in encouraging a Lib Dem vote for political purposes, then you are saying that he has sold a bunch of Scottish jobs and services down the road in order to better advantage the political position of the SNP.

There's no dilemma about Salmond. He is a bona fide political heavyweight and anyone who doesn't recognise that knows very little about politics. I think he is a supreme tactician, spin doctor and political leader. Unfortunately he is also prone from time to time to pretty spectacular lapses of judgment. There's a big difference between being a good politician and a good leader in government. The next five years will answer the question on the second point. If he carries it off it will be better for all of us.

Finally, let's not be mistaken into thinking otherwise than it was Iain Gray himself who wished to make the Scottish Elections a personality contest and that he was willing to "fight dirty". He even gathered a decent whack of column inches with that particular mode of attack, including an exclusive interview, unveiling his plans on 26th December 2010 in the Scotland on Sunday: http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/news/Iain-Gray-gets-personal-as.6671599.jp

I agree with you that Gray invited a head to head with Salmond and frankly that was barking mad - a contest he could never win. Nevertheless the personal abuse he has faced has been pretty bile filled and excessive.

When it transpired that in terms of a personality contest, Iain Gray had very little to offer compared to Salmond, then he decided to change his tactics into a very base dog-whistle to the Scottish anti-Tory vote and the usual fear-mongering about an independent Scotland. He kicked that particular hornets' nest, got stung and was humbled as a result. I don't feel particularly sorry for him, what with his 50k a year job secure for the next 5 years besides, he was in Chile just days after Pinochet left office and he's walked the killing fields of Cambodia and Rwanda, don't you know... he can clearly handle himself.

I'm not sure you can criticise him for the tactic he pursued other than to say that it comprehensively failed to work. When you look at the policy offer from Labour - in fact from all the parties - I'm not sure there was much else he could have run on. Though for that of course he has only himself to blame. I'm not asking you to feel sorry for him. I'm just saying that the personal abuse was excessive and certainly contradictory to the 'we ran a positive campaign' claims of the SNP.

I'm sure he's big enough to realise that a few faceless insults on websites do not an orchestrated political campaign make. If he doesn't, then perhaps he should have stuck to being a school teacher, where the kids would no doubt have only good things to say about him on facebook and any criticism he did hear from them would be measured, constructive and in no way at all childish...?

As you may know the SNP had an extremely successful and well orchestrated campaign through modern digital media with both official and unofficial sources tweeting, posting and messaging. Fair play to them, they did it spectacularly well. However the "faceless insults" were certainly much more than just random individuals taking the time to post.

As to your last point about staying in teaching, that's actually quite funny and yes politics is a rough game I suppose so if you step into the ring you have to accept there will be punches thrown.


So, overall I think we just have different views of the world. And to be honest the election is now done so I feel that what comes next is more important. Things like getting the banks to start loaning money to business so the economy can begin to grow again...

[One Day Soon]

you did post evidence, as I thought that was fair enough I didn't argue it.

The rest of your post is pretty much pants though, and I'm sure you would love me not to respond to your posts, but there just so funny that I can't help myself:greengrin

In which case we have nothing further to discuss. Bye.

[Part/Time Supporter]

The SNP as a party put forward what most commentators observed as a positive campaign, based on their agenda and what they felt to be a relatively good record of governance, given the circumstances of that.

When the man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing was released, we were told it had made the SNP totally unelectable. MacAskill faced the voters and increased his majority. Doesn't make the decision right or wrong, but I think it certainly shows that Megrahi wasn't the issue that Labour wanted to make it, especially when details of their own double dealing was shown up.

In terms of the arc of prosperity, our own UK is far from out of the financial woods yet and has not balanced its books for many, many years, even preceding this financial crisis. We may yet join the arc of insolvency! So let's not pretend that Scottish independence and a Scotland outside of the UK can be contrasted against a backdrop of longstanding UK financial probity, stability and viability, or that growth in the economy is a uniquely UK phenomenon and that collapses are for everyone else. It quite simply isn't the case.

Remember, we asked the IMF for help in 1976, (the last time Labour ruined the economy...) we were in a Union then...

In terms of the LibDem vote and the independence referendum, I think in both counts, Salmond made political calculations. Time will tell on the independence vote, but in terms of political tactics, I cannot think of anything better than to see one set of your opponents voted out and replaced with not just one but both of your remaining large scale opponents to head up a very unpopular and awkward marriage of convenience in Westminster. Whether English voters listened to Salmond or not is a matter of conjecture, but even that presents a bit of a dilemma to some Labour supporters: he's either a credible political heavyweight or he's a parochial pariah with very little influence outside of Edinburgh. We can all agree he's a heavyweight, though.

Finally, let's not be mistaken into thinking otherwise than it was Iain Gray himself who wished to make the Scottish Elections a personality contest and that he was willing to "fight dirty". He even gathered a decent whack of column inches with that particular mode of attack, including an exclusive interview, unveiling his plans on 26th December 2010 in the Scotland on Sunday: http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/news/Iain-Gray-gets-personal-as.6671599.jp

When it transpired that in terms of a personality contest, Iain Gray had very little to offer compared to Salmond, then he decided to change his tactics into a very base dog-whistle to the Scottish anti-Tory vote and the usual fear-mongering about an independent Scotland. He kicked that particular hornets' nest, got stung and was humbled as a result. I don't feel particularly sorry for him, what with his 50k a year job secure for the next 5 years besides, he was in Chile just days after Pinochet left office and he's walked the killing fields of Cambodia and Rwanda, don't you know... he can clearly handle himself.

I'm sure he's big enough to realise that a few faceless insults on websites do not an orchestrated political campaign make. If he doesn't, then perhaps he should have stuck to being a school teacher, where the kids would no doubt have only good things to say about him on facebook and any criticism he did hear from them would be measured, constructive and in no way at all childish...?

And he's a Hibby, so he must be used to getting humped in big games.

:duck:

[Part/Time Supporter]

Perhaps there was little in the Labour 'manifesto' that I was inclined to argue for? I have a very clear view as to what I believe in but that wasn't really on offer in this campaign. In fact there was little policy or substance on offer generally at all from anyone.

Most of my posts that were critical of the SNP were in response to those who were offering uncritical praise of their record and their leader. It is a record with very large holes in it and as a governing party of four years I think it is perfectly reasonable to point those out. Particularly so in the context of a pretty vile, negative and sustained character assassination of Iain Gray (however merited or otherwise the attacks on him may have been) in which he was portrayed as an utterly worthless individual (which is manifestly not the case).

All I have done is emphasise four areas in which I feel Salmond's judgment has been found badly wrong - the release of Megrahi, the failed Arc of Prosperity economic policy, the advice to English voters to support the Lib Dems last year and the failure to bring even a debate on the independence referendum before parliament.

The good thing is that with 5 years of SNP government ahead of us we are going to have plenty of opportunities to debate the merits and demerits of Salmond's majority government. Time to start a new thread on that subject perhaps?

That one worked a treat if the results last Thursday are anything to go by. He's basically succeeded in a) wiping out the LibDems as a major party in Scotland and b) he's hoovered up the vast majority of their votes at the same time.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Just so. But the lesson that needs to be learned is a complicated one composed of many parts, like a mosaic. The actual result - an overall majority - makes the Nats look stronger and the opposition weaker in voting terms than they both really are. That's not to downplay the consequences of the election in parliamentary terms, just to say that this is a subtle and sophisticated picture with opportunities and bear traps waiting for all sides.

But I do not think that political and electoral strength should be confused with governmental strength. These are two very different beasts.

And I don't know why the angry face is in this post, I didn't put it there and couldn't edit it to get rid of it.

Who are you kidding, apart from yourself? The SNP got 45% last Thursday. Blair never got that share in a general election, even in 1997. I guess the last leader to get that kind of share in a general election was Wilson in 1966, or possibly Macmillan in 1959.

[lucky]

A classy response for which you deserve credit. Id be interested if the canvassing REALLY showed the results you predicted (in which case you should be more cautious in trusting them in future), or whether you were trying to keep the hibs.nat vote at home (in which case you are a dedicated macchiavellian schemer) :-)

From two days out when we were knocking on doors, previous Labour supporters and the undecided, we knew there was a big change in the labour vote. But you cant give up and show your hand. But reality we have had this coming for such a long time. It is now time for the Scottish Labour party to rid its self of the New labour types and drop polices of the center ground. Labour should be the party of the people, poltical wing of the trade unions. We should have some strong polices which the people want rather than what we think they want.

Until then we will suffer at the ballot box.

[JimBHibees]

From two days out when we were knocking on doors, previous Labour supporters and the undecided, we knew there was a big change in the labour vote. But you cant give up and show your hand. But reality we have had this coming for such a long time. It is now time for the Scottish Labour party to rid its self of the New labour types and drop polices of the center ground. Labour should be the party of the people, poltical wing of the trade unions. We should have some strong polices which the people want rather than what we think they want.

Until then we will suffer at the ballot box.

So you were lying. :confused:

[hibsbollah]

And he's a Hibby, so he must be used to getting humped in big games.

:duck:

Interestingly i noticed this morning that Grays share of the vote for labour in his seat actually increased since last time. The surge in SNP vote came almost wholly from dissaffected lib dems, who almost lost their deposit in east lothian. I think this is the point ODS is trying to make about the distorted picture re-labours true position.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Interestingly i noticed this morning that Grays share of the vote for labour in his seat actually increased since last time. The surge in SNP vote came almost wholly from dissaffected lib dems, who almost lost their deposit in east lothian. I think this is the point ODS is trying to make about the distorted picture re-labours true position.

Only when you compare it to the almost as bad 2007 result. It's like saying after a 4-1 humping that "well, we got beat 3-0 last week, so it wasn't that bad". Labour's performance in the Scottish Parliament has got worse with every election - they won 56 seats in 1999, 50 in 2003, 46 (44 under the 2011 boundaries) in 2007 and now 37.

The point about the switching of Lib Dems to the SNP is a fair one, but that only works as an excuse once. What if those former Lib Dem voters have abandoned them for good? Given Clegg's continued support for the Tories, there has to be a chance of that. The question then is whether they will stick with the SNP. That depends on what they do and obviously the referendum will play a massive part in that.

[hibsbollah]

What if those former Lib Dem voters have abandoned them for good?

I think thats the great unknown, both in scotland and uk-wide.

[steakbake]

I think that's a very thoughtful and interesting post, though not one I agree with.


Thank you. Where we probably do agree is that school kids can be cheeky wee ****ers :agree:

[sKipper]

Interestingly i noticed this morning that Grays share of the vote for labour in his seat actually increased since last time. The surge in SNP vote came almost wholly from dissaffected lib dems, who almost lost their deposit in east lothian. I think this is the point ODS is trying to make about the distorted picture re-labours true position.

Lucky himself is saying there was a switch from Labour to the SNP.

It would seem the Liberals switched to both parties and covered a movement from Labour to SNP.

[sKipper]

In the final two weeks of campaigning, Labour, the Tories and LDs gave the electorate a clear choice: us or the "separatist" SNP. We have a resounding result. The first time that the Parliament has been led my a majority government and some substantial victories in what were once considered Labour heartlands... even on Gordon Brown's own turf - and he's the man who saved the world!!

http://www.compassonline.org.uk/news/item.asp?n=1899 is an article by Gerry Hassan written almost 3 years ago to the day. It is as relevant now as it was then if not more so, given that's two Scottish elections now that Labour (and the others) have been out-thought and out-manoeuvred by the SNP.

The SNP are not fools, idiots, marginal crackpots with a narrow agenda. They are a very slick electoral machine, a modern political party with some very considerable intellectual ability advising them, working for them and planning for them. Many people who are as tribally against the SNP as the recent Labour party in Scotland have been, simply do not give them enough credit and as Hassan says, almost view them as an illegitimate and inherently incompetent party... very much like one or two people on here have done before and amazingly, even after the result we've seen.

What Thursday's result shows is that the opposition parties at Holyrood have failed to learn anything from 2007 and by the way Ken MacIntosh MSP was going on on Politics Scotland this morning, they'll not be learning anything new from 2011 either.

The 'Call Kaye' show on Radio Scotland this morning wrote the election off as a protest vote !!!:rolleyes:

The Labour types just don't get it.

[One Day Soon]

And he's a Hibby, so he must be used to getting humped in big games.

:duck:

Quality. Perhaps he's Blobby in disguise?

[One Day Soon]

Who are you kidding, apart from yourself? The SNP got 45% last Thursday. Blair never got that share in a general election, even in 1997. I guess the last leader to get that kind of share in a general election was Wilson in 1966, or possibly Macmillan in 1959.

Not trying to kid myself or anyone else. All I'm saying is that the Lib Dem collapse distorts the results and makes the SNP win a lot bigger than it would otherwise have been (and it would still have been a very solid win). One of the real questions for Labour is why they couldn't take a share of that Lib Dem collapse. Labour held up their share of the vote at about the same level as 2007 - which last time saw them lose out by one seat. If you want to think that the 45% garnered by the SNP in this election will be up for grabs for them next time then fine. I think that's an unrealistic expectation.

[One Day Soon]

From two days out when we were knocking on doors, previous Labour supporters and the undecided, we knew there was a big change in the labour vote. But you cant give up and show your hand. But reality we have had this coming for such a long time. It is now time for the Scottish Labour party to rid its self of the New labour types and drop polices of the center ground. Labour should be the party of the people, poltical wing of the trade unions. We should have some strong polices which the people want rather than what we think they want.

Until then we will suffer at the ballot box.

That's interesting. I think Labour should go in exactly the opposite direction and challenge the cosy status quo that sees public services structured and run in the producer interest rather than the consumer interest. The only times in history that Labour has been effective is when it was radical and modernising. Unfortunately that agenda never really crossed the border into Scotland under Blair.

Though I do agree with your last sentence.

[One Day Soon]

Interestingly i noticed this morning that Grays share of the vote for labour in his seat actually increased since last time. The surge in SNP vote came almost wholly from dissaffected lib dems, who almost lost their deposit in east lothian. I think this is the point ODS is trying to make about the distorted picture re-labours true position.

It is. Ewan Aitken put Labour's share of the vote up to 44% in Edinburgh Eastern and still lost. You would bet your house on normally winning most seats with that share of votes cast.

[One Day Soon]

Only when you compare it to the almost as bad 2007 result. It's like saying after a 4-1 humping that "well, we got beat 3-0 last week, so it wasn't that bad". Labour's performance in the Scottish Parliament has got worse with every election - they won 56 seats in 1999, 50 in 2003, 46 (44 under the 2011 boundaries) in 2007 and now 37.

Come on now you're spinning it here. The share of the vote stayed pretty solid.

The point about the switching of Lib Dems to the SNP is a fair one, but that only works as an excuse once. What if those former Lib Dem voters have abandoned them for good? Given Clegg's continued support for the Tories, there has to be a chance of that. The question then is whether they will stick with the SNP. That depends on what they do and obviously the referendum will play a massive part in that.

And so will whether or not Labour grasps the nettle on what it got wrong - which is a lot!

[One Day Soon]

Thank you. Where we probably do agree is that school kids can be cheeky wee ****ers :agree:

Somebody should have a policy on that....

[One Day Soon]

The 'Call Kaye' show on Radio Scotland this morning wrote the election off as a protest vote !!!:rolleyes:

The Labour types just don't get it.

If you think that the callers on Call Kaye this morning were organised Labour stooges you are very, very wrong. Labour would struggle to organise to leave a burning building at the moment.

If those callers were saying they were registering a protest then that is what they were doing - or what they think they were doing. Mind you having heard some of those callers in the past I'm not sure I would put too much stock by what most of them say.

[steakbake]

The 'Call Kaye' show on Radio Scotland this morning wrote the election off as a protest vote !!!:rolleyes:

The Labour types just don't get it.

Yes, I was listening to that. It was staggering, I have to say, the level of denial and still the accusation or the perception at least that the result was a fluke. Her co-anchor, Lorraine Davidson is BBC journo but was a former Labour spin doctor. You could hear her disappointment and disapproval.

Even in an article in the Scotsman today, Hugh Henry, while berating the election strategy, plays down the SNP win by saying that in many constituencies, they didn't get half of all registered voters voting for them. I have bad news for Hugh because I cannot think that there has been an election in the history of the UK in which the winning party has been voted in by a majority of all those entitled to vote. It's funny the yardsticks that people put down when they're not talking about their own fortunes.

I think in terms of where to go next, OneDaySoon's version is more credible than Lucky's. I do not think Labour's response should be to retreat to the hard left. They can go there if they like and will probably shore up a baseline of their support but they will simply not bring the mainstream of voters with them. Most voters are not "party animals". They are usually centrists and do not subscribe automatically to socialism or free market liberalism as an identity. They want political parties which offer them various shades of the political spectrum. The SSP for example, have found that bereft of a strong political leader out at the front, there is no appetite for radical socialism in the mainstream of the electorate.

Scottish Labour needs to become a separate and distinctly Scottish based party, but of course, still linked to the Westminster Labour party because their unionist perspective requires that. They should have their own policies which are of course, in line with the Westminster group, but are distinct in the Scottish context. It's farcical that Iain Gray is/was simply "Labour leader in the Scottish Parliament" and not "Scottish Labour Party Leader". It shows that Labour have still to understand the nature of the very devolution process they put in place. However, from my perspective they can continue to ignore the lessons - I'm quite happy with the way things are going and at this rate, the way things will probably end up.

[One Day Soon]

Yes, I was listening to that. It was staggering, I have to say, the level of denial and still the accusation or the perception at least that the result was a fluke. Her co-anchor, Lorraine Davidson is BBC journo but was a former Labour spin doctor. You could hear her disappointment and disapproval.

Even in an article in the Scotsman today, Hugh Henry, while berating the election strategy, plays down the SNP win by saying that in many constituencies, they didn't get half of all registered voters voting for them. I have bad news for Hugh because I cannot think that there has been an election in the history of the UK in which the winning party has been voted in by a majority of all those entitled to vote. It's funny the yardsticks that people put down when they're not talking about their own fortunes.

I think in terms of where to go next, OneDaySoon's version is more credible than Lucky's. I do not think Labour's response should be to retreat to the hard left. They can go there if they like and will probably shore up a baseline of their support but they will simply not bring the mainstream of voters with them. Most voters are not "party animals". They are usually centrists and do not subscribe automatically to socialism or free market liberalism as an identity. They want political parties which offer them various shades of the political spectrum. The SSP for example, have found that bereft of a strong political leader out at the front, there is no appetite for radical socialism in the mainstream of the electorate.

Scottish Labour needs to become a separate and distinctly Scottish based party, but of course, still linked to the Westminster Labour party because their unionist perspective requires that. They should have their own policies which are of course, in line with the Westminster group, but are distinct in the Scottish context. However, it's farcical that Iain Gray is/was simply "Labour leader in the Scottish Parliament" and not "Scottish Labour Party Leader". It shows that Labour have still to understand the nature of the very devolution process they put in place. However, from my perspective they can continue to ignore the lessons. I'm quite happy with the way things are going and at this rate, the way things will end up.

Yes but what were the actual punters saying about why they voted the way they did?

[steakbake]

Somebody should have a policy on that....

A 6 month mandatory detention...

[One Day Soon]

A 6 month mandatory detention...

Go on Newsnight and show us the figures....

[steakbake]

Yes but what were the actual punters saying about why they voted the way they did?

I am trying to remember - it was this morning and I was only really half listening to it.

[ancienthibby]

Yes, I was listening to that. It was staggering, I have to say, the level of denial and still the accusation or the perception at least that the result was a fluke. Her co-anchor, Lorraine Davidson is BBC journo but was a former Labour spin doctor. You could hear her disappointment and disapproval.

Even in an article in the Scotsman today, Hugh Henry, while berating the election strategy, plays down the SNP win by saying that in many constituencies, they didn't get half of all registered voters voting for them. I have bad news for Hugh because I cannot think that there has been an election in the history of the UK in which the winning party has been voted in by a majority of all those entitled to vote. It's funny the yardsticks that people put down when they're not talking about their own fortunes.

I think in terms of where to go next, OneDaySoon's version is more credible than Lucky's. I do not think Labour's response should be to retreat to the hard left. They can go there if they like and will probably shore up a baseline of their support but they will simply not bring the mainstream of voters with them. Most voters are not "party animals". They are usually centrists and do not subscribe automatically to socialism or free market liberalism as an identity. They want political parties which offer them various shades of the political spectrum. The SSP for example, have found that bereft of a strong political leader out at the front, there is no appetite for radical socialism in the mainstream of the electorate.

Scottish Labour needs to become a separate and distinctly Scottish based party, but of course, still linked to the Westminster Labour party because their unionist perspective requires that. They should have their own policies which are of course, in line with the Westminster group, but are distinct in the Scottish context. It's farcical that Iain Gray is/was simply "Labour leader in the Scottish Parliament" and not "Scottish Labour Party Leader". It shows that Labour have still to understand the nature of the very devolution process they put in place. However, from my perspective they can continue to ignore the lessons - I'm quite happy with the way things are going and at this rate, the way things will probably end up.

You make a number of very good points here!:agree:

This morning I watched the Politics Show and the interview with Ken MacIntosh. Other than Iain Gray I have heard so much denial by any Labour MSP in nthis campaign.

A second point is that the constitution of the (British) Labour Party means that the (Scottish) Labour Party leader can only come from amongst its MSP's, and so no-one can be parachuted in from outside. Hugh Henry has ruled himself out, so means it's a choice between Ken Mac, Johan Lamont or Jackie Baillie.

There is a real need for a 'new' Labour Party of Scotland, perhaps such as that started by Jim Sillars. There needs to be a clean and utter break with Westminster party, otherwise oblivion at Holyrood will continue to be Labour's role!

By the way, Labour is the only party not to have an MSP as Presiding Officer so I really hope that either Malcom Chisholm or Hugh Henry gets the nod there!!

Labour also seem to be in denial about the swing in the vote going from FibDems to the SNP. The fact is that swings went from Labour, the FibDems and the Tories to the SNP. Indeed, in Iain Gray's own seat which Labour held, the swing was again from Labour to SNP. In key West of Scotland Labour strongholds like Clydebank and Anniesland there was a marked swing from Labour to the SNP.

[Dashing Bob S]

I think Labour needs to have a distinct identity and independence from the London based party if it is to regain its status as a credible force in Scotland. At present it seems irrelevant and out of time.

Most people in Scotland seemed to favour a democratic socialist/social democratic approach to society and economy, a strong NHS and free educational iopportunity for all irrespective of income or background. I think the game changer was when Salmond went on question time and lumped Labour in with the Tories and Lib Dems as another party who were happy to squander NHS resources on costly management structures. He made the parties all seem just different shades of each other and presented the SNP as a centre-left alternative and standard bearers of the idea of a welfare state.

This is popular in Scotland but all but dead in England, where a different set of politics has emerged. New Labour is about playing that game and won't be going back to a radical agenda on which it was founded any time soon - probably wisely as there is no support for it in England.

But this makes them pretty much an irrelevance in Scotland.

Most Scots seem pragmatic about independence, happy to take more powers and evolve towards it as Westminster seems to become more of an irrelevance. I think that Labour in Scotland will have to become more independent and possibly ditch the concept of unionism (which is just British rather Scottish nationalism) as its taking them nowhere.

Even then one suspects that it just might be too late.

[ancienthibby]

Auntie Bella has now resigned!!:agree::agree:

What an utter rout this election has been for the opposition parties!:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[hibsbollah]

Ancient i think you misunderstand what a swing is. There was no 'swing' from Lab to SNP in east lothian(except in the sense that SOME voters probably moved in that direction,as did SOME voters probably move in all kinds of unrepresentative directions.)

The clear swing, psephologically, was from lib dems to snp.

[marinello59]

Auntie Bella has now resigned!!:agree::agree:

What an utter rout this election has been for the opposition parties!:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Dignity in victory is a foreign concept to you then?

Shame, don''t like her politics but her honesty and humour despite knowing full well her that her party were going to get another kicking at the ballot box does her great credit.

[Golden Bear]

Auntie Bella has now resigned!!:agree::agree:

What an utter rout this election has been for the opposition parties!:thumbsup::thumbsup:

:agree:

Only Patrick Harvie to go - but he's a one man party in any case.


El Presidente Ecky rules OK.

:greengrin

[Golden Bear]

Dignity in victory is a foreign concept to you then?

Shame, don''t like her politics but her honesty and humour despite knowing full well her that her party were going to get another kicking at the ballot box does her great credit.

:agree:

There was something likeable aboot the auld battleaxe.

[CropleyWasGod]

:agree:

Only Patrick Harvie to go - but he's a one man party in any case.


El Presidente Ecky rules OK.

:greengrin

No he's no. :na na:

[ancienthibby]

Dignity in victory is a foreign concept to you then?

Shame, don''t like her politics but her honesty and humour despite knowing full well her that her party were going to get another kicking at the ballot box does her great credit.

No!

It's not quite a case of 'to the victor go the spoils', it's more of a case of 'just who saw this coming'??

I like AuntieB, she was a doughty fighter for her cause, but at the end of the election to have three opposition party leaders resign is quite unprecedented, is it not??

That's all: no more no less!:agree:

[Golden Bear]

No he's no. :na na:

Well nearly ----------- but he says he's the big Boss and he disnae need a seconder.

[ancienthibby]

Ancient i think you misunderstand what a swing is. There was no 'swing' from Lab to SNP in east lothian(except in the sense that SOME voters probably moved in that direction,as did SOME voters probably move in all kinds of unrepresentative directions.)

The clear swing, psephologically, was from lib dems to snp.

Not as the records show.:devil:

[ancient hibee]

No!

It's not quite a case of 'to the victor go the spoils', it's more of a case of 'just who saw this coming'??

I like AuntieB, she was a doughty fighter for her cause, but at the end of the election to have three opposition party leaders resign is quite unprecedented, is it not??

That's all: no more no less!:agree:
They've all caved in-pathetic.

[One Day Soon]

[/B]

Not as the records show.:devil:

Hibsbollah is right.

[One Day Soon]

They've all caved in-pathetic.

Your hubris is spectacular. Keep that up all the way to 2016.

[GhostofBolivar]

Guessing an independence referendum will fall as close to June 24th 2014 as possible.

[Beefster]

Dignity in victory is a foreign concept to you then?

Shame, don''t like her politics but her honesty and humour despite knowing full well her that her party were going to get another kicking at the ballot box does her great credit.

Goldie needed to go. She's likeable but hasn't made any progress in making the Tories less toxic in Scotland.

Some folk wouldn't know dignity if it ran up and kicked them in the nuts. AH is particularly bad for this - surprising considering his beliefs.

[J-C]

Guessing an independence referendum will fall as close to June 24th 2014 as possible.

The biggest thing in all this is the fact the SNP got such a large majority when the way the vote is done this should never really happen. The SNP stand obviously for an independant Scotland and now having a clear majority in Holyrood, they have the opertunity to show the Scottish people they are capable of running properly. More powers are needed at Holyrood, powers that allow it's parliament to govern Scotland properly, will Central Government hand over some of these powers? that's another matter.
One thing is clear Mr Salmond has 3-4 years to convince the Scottish people that independance is a good thing, we as a nation are roughly the size of Norway, with independance the waters around us become ours and so do the oil fields which fill the Treasuries pockets every year. We have the opertunity to become a wealthy country but it will not happen overnight, the wheels are just starting to turn and the SNP are driving them, lets hope for all our sakes the don't let their foot slip on the brakes.

[CropleyWasGod]

Guessing an independence referendum will fall as close to June 24th 2014 as possible.

Why so? Is that the date of the caber tossing final at the Commonwealth Games?:greengrin

[heretoday]

The biggest thing in all this is the fact the SNP got such a large majority when the way the vote is done this should never really happen. The SNP stand obviously for an independant Scotland and now having a clear majority in Holyrood, they have the opertunity to show the Scottish people they are capable of running properly. More powers are needed at Holyrood, powers that allow it's parliament to govern Scotland properly, will Central Government hand over some of these powers? that's another matter.
One thing is clear Mr Salmond has 3-4 years to convince the Scottish people that independance is a good thing, we as a nation are roughly the size of Norway, with independance the waters around us become ours and so do the oil fields which fill the Treasuries pockets every year. We have the opertunity to become a wealthy country but it will not happen overnight, the wheels are just starting to turn and the SNP are driving them, lets hope for all our sakes the don't let their foot slip on the brakes.


It all depends on Salmond. He's the jewel in the SNP crown but he's not getting any younger. Without him they might be hard pressed to come up with a candidate who has the charisma to carry Scotland to independence. Nicola Sturgeon? I think not.

My own feeling is the voters will ignore the Braveheart stuff and think with their wallets. If someone can persuade me the economy, my savings, property and investments will benefit from independence then let's go with it. Otherwise it's just going to be a case of the same old misery in a tartan wrapping.

[J-C]

It all depends on Salmond. He's the jewel in the SNP crown but he's not getting any younger. Without him they might be hard pressed to come up with a candidate who has the charisma to carry Scotland to independence. Nicola Sturgeon? I think not.

My own feeling is the voters will ignore the Braveheart stuff and think with their wallets. If someone can persuade me the economy, my savings, property and investments will benefit from independence then let's go with it. Otherwise it's just going to be a case of the same old misery in a tartan wrapping.


We (GB) must be the only country with large oil supplies that is nearly bankrupt, Norway has a vast amount put away as a rainy day chest, incase something may happen, yes it is a lot more expensive there but when your average wage is around £65k, £8 a pint is nothing and think what your money gets elsewhwere in the world. Our oil money has been squandered away for decades to pay off huge debts incurred by previous incumbent governments, independance will allow any oil within Scottish waters to be completely ours, nothing for the English. Also there are new oil fields being drilled off the west coast of Scotland, so a bigger oil boom is coming our way.

[Part/Time Supporter]

We (GB) must be the only country with large oil supplies that is nearly bankrupt, Norway has a vast amount put away as a rainy day chest, incase something may happen, yes it is a lot more expensive there but when your average wage is around £65k, £8 a pint is nothing and think what your money gets elsewhwere in the world. Our oil money has been squandered away for decades to pay off huge debts incurred by previous incumbent governments, independance will allow any oil within Scottish waters to be completely ours, nothing for the English. Also there are new oil fields being drilled off the west coast of Scotland, so a bigger oil boom is coming our way.

1. The UK isn't "nearly bankrupt". The annual deficit is far too large, but the total debt is still low compared to most other major countries (Japan, US, Italy, Germany).

2. Your justification for independence there is far too narrow and selfish. The purpose of independence (or, indeed, greater powers for a devolved parliament) should be to improve Scotland's performance overall, particularly economic, but also social measures such as the life expectancy, crime rate and health and educational outcomes. Without improvement in those spheres, an independent Scotland becomes little more than a cold Arab state.

[J-C]

1. The UK isn't "nearly bankrupt". The annual deficit is far too large, but the total debt is still low compared to most other major countries (Japan, US, Italy, Germany).

2. Your justification for independence there is far too narrow and selfish. The purpose of independence (or, indeed, greater powers for a devolved parliament) should be to improve Scotland's performance overall, particularly economic, but also social measures such as the life expectancy, crime rate and health and educational outcomes. Without improvement in those spheres, an independent Scotland becomes little more than a cold Arab state.


Ok then maybe not bankrupt but not nearly as wealthy as it should be due to continual govenments getting us into severe debt.

With greater wealth comes greater health, policing, education etc, with a greater budget to work with we as a nation would be in a better situation.

[ancienthibby]

Goldie needed to go. She's likeable but hasn't made any progress in making the Tories less toxic in Scotland.

Some folk wouldn't know dignity if it ran up and kicked them in the nuts. AH is particularly bad for this - surprising considering his beliefs.

Perhaps I can respond to this, Beefster, since we appear to have different understandings of what is going on?

First of all, I never make personal attacks on the individuals who are politicians. I am sure that Iain Gray is, as he says, a son, a husband, a father, a grandfather and I am sure he excels in these roles.

The problem is that when someone becomes a politician, they put on a mask and create 'personas' which they then present to the public and its is these 'personas' that I take issue with from time to time.

Thus, the persona of Iain Gray as a possible First Minster, is one that I will take robust issue with. I can't quite say the same about Auntie Bella since she is not a candidate for that position, but personally, she would be very welcome at my dinner table any night.

The things about politics (and I am long in the tooth in this respect) is that the existing structures and frameworks demand that politicians adopt some rather nasty role-playing as part of their job. One of the more demeaning aspects of the weekly First Minister's Questions at Holyrood is the desk-thumping and baying that is demonstrated by all parties.

Or, take a look at some of the recent TV coverage and witness any set including, say, Alex Neil and Andy Kerr. You'll find that there's a balloon in the middle of the couch since both parties need to be as far apart as they can. Then Alex Neil (as is his wont) will wind Andy Kerr up and, from the response, the only thing that comes across is complete bitterness. That's the type of climate that was not supposed to be imported from Westminster but, sadly, it has been.

That truly saddens me.

However, beyond that, there is another aspect to all this post-election debate and fervour - and it's this:

We are living in epoch-making days and some younger posters may not quite appreciate exactly what that means to some of us oldies. For me, personally, I am witnessing historic days that I never thought I'd survive to see. So if I get a bit over-enthusiastic from time to time, do not get upset by it. No upset is intended, I can assure you!

[Beefster]

Perhaps I can respond to this, Beefster, since we appear to have different understandings of what is going on?

First of all, I never make personal attacks on the individuals who are politicians. I am sure that Iain Gray is, as he says, a son, a husband, a father, a grandfather and I am sure he excels in these roles.

The problem is that when someone becomes a politician, they put on a mask and create 'personas' which they then present to the public and its is these 'personas' that I take issue with from time to time.

Thus, the persona of Iain Gray as a possible First Minster, is one that I will take robust issue with. I can't quite say the same about Auntie Bella since she is not a candidate for that position, but personally, she would be very welcome at my dinner table any night.

The things about politics (and I am long in the tooth in this respect) is that the existing structures and frameworks demand that politicians adopt some rather nasty role-playing as part of their job. One of the more demeaning aspects of the weekly First Minister's Questions at Holyrood is the desk-thumping and baying that is demonstrated by all parties.

Or, take a look at some of the recent TV coverage and witness any set including, say, Alex Neil and Andy Kerr. You'll find that there's a balloon in the middle of the couch since both parties need to be as far apart as they can. Then Alex Neil (as is his wont) will wind Andy Kerr up and, from the response, the only thing that comes across is complete bitterness. That's the type of climate that was not supposed to be imported from Westminster but, sadly, it has been.

That truly saddens me.

However, beyond that, there is another aspect to all this post-election debate and fervour - and it's this:

We are living in epoch-making days and some younger posters may not quite appreciate exactly what that means to some of us oldies. For me, personally, I am witnessing historic days that I never thought I'd survive to see. So if I get a bit over-enthusiastic from time to time, do not get upset by it. No upset is intended, I can assure you!

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not particularly fussed about folk slagging off politicians - they chose to go into politics and know the score.

I was more referring to the gloating on here and being directed at fellow Hibees. I'm not upset about it - I just prefer to have reasoned debate when it comes to politics. I'm as guilty as the next man of being stubbornly partisan at time though.

[The Baldmans Comb]

Well done to everyone who tweeted, blogged, debated and most of all who voted twice for the SNP.:greengrin

It was a magnificent victory and a thoroughly deserved triumph for a party who never stop trying to better Scotland.

The Independence debate starts now and win or lose I'm still very comfortable with the people presently running our country:top marks.

[One Day Soon]

Well done to everyone who tweeted, blogged, debated and most of all who voted twice for the SNP.:greengrin

Yes, it was a pretty effective co-ordinated campaign of character assassination on Iain Gray. Oops, I mean it was an at all times positive campaign.

It was a magnificent victory and a thoroughly deserved triumph for a party who never stop trying to better Scotland.

Don't all of the parties never stop trying to better Scotland, regardless of how well or badly they do it?

The Independence debate starts now and win or lose I'm still very comfortable with the people presently running our country:top marks.

Bit of a surprise if you weren't surely?

I think perhaps you could have posted this on another thread which might have been titled 'Alex Salmond is fantastic, who wants to agree with me how fantastic Alex Salmond is?'.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Bit of a surprise if you weren't surely?

I think perhaps you could have posted this on another thread which might have been titled 'Alex Salmond is fantastic, who wants to agree with me how fantastic Alex Salmond is?'.

Do you want some cheese with that whine, sir?

[bighairyfaeleith]

Do you want some cheese with that whine, sir?

:tee hee:

[Betty Boop]

At least in Leith, we still have Malcolm Chisolm.

[steakbake]

At least in Leith, we still have Malcolm Chisolm.

He's an example of an excellent constituency MSP - willing to help his constituents but also a political pragmatist. He's a Labour MSP but he's not afraid to speak his mind and is not restricted by party lines. I wasn't disappointed to see that particular "red" win a seat.

[JimBHibees]

At least in Leith, we still have Malcolm Chisolm.

Did he not change his mind on an Iraq vote at some time. Cant remember if it was Holyrood or Westminster but had voted one way then said next day he had made a mistake. Apologies if it was not him but kind of remember it.

[Future17]

Malcolm Chisholm:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6201895.stm

[One Day Soon]

Do you want some cheese with that whine, sir?

I think perhaps you could have posted this on another thread which might have been titled 'Alex Salmond is fantastic, who wants to agree with me how fantastic Alex Salmond is?'.

Do you want some cheese with that whine, sir?



No thanks, cheese won't go with the Chateau d'Salmond. Its more suited to crackers. Crackers and Nuts.

I think you'll find that whine goes very nicely with the Appelation Megrahi though. A cheeky number that doesn't keep well so its best to release it from the bottle early. Once you've decanted it you will discover that it actually lasts quite well despite the expert's opinion.

Anyway, to more important business. I think Nicola Sturgeon is fantastic, who wants to agree with me how fantastic Nicola Sturgeon is?

I could do another 67 of these you know....

[One Day Soon]

He's an example of an excellent constituency MSP - willing to help his constituents but also a political pragmatist. He's a Labour MSP but he's not afraid to speak his mind and is not restricted by party lines. I wasn't disappointed to see that particular "red" win a seat.

If I were an SNP supporter he's exactly the person I would hope would become Labour leader.

In terms of the bit in bold above, it would be refreshing to see anything resembling 'independence' of mind among the SNP MSPs. But as was said on television recently, you'll find more free thinking gangs of Moonies than SNP MSPs.

[heretoday]

I see that the government are planning new redundancy laws that favour employers. Osborne was on about it.

What do the SNP think about that? Or do they have no reaction?

It's not just happening in England.

[allmodcons]

If I were an SNP supporter he's exactly the person I would hope would become Labour leader.

In terms of the bit in bold above, it would be refreshing to see anything resembling 'independence' of mind among the SNP MSPs. But as was said on television recently, you'll find more free thinking gangs of Moonies than SNP MSPs.


I seem to recall you saying prior to the election that you didn't have the time to debate the issues with what you termed 'cybernats'. Better things to do you said!

Funny now that you've not got what you wanted from the Election you're 'shooting off' against anything or anybody connected to the SNP.

Where you finding all the time to post now? Did you lose your seat?

Take a leaf out of Lucky's book and show some dignity in defeat. You are one sore loser!!

[steakbake]

If I were an SNP supporter he's exactly the person I would hope would become Labour leader.

Hmm, if you'd dread it then yes, he'd do nicely. Or indeed bookies' favourite, Jackie Baillie. With Ed down south and her up here, Labour sure know how to pick 'em!

[cabbageandribs1875]

Take a leaf out of Lucky's book and show some dignity in defeat. You are one sore loser!!

:tee hee: i think everyone has noticed that :wink:

[wee_cooper]

i have been reading this thread since day one but have only felt the need to post now. one day soon!! you are a comic genius. you have made me laugh so much it is not true. Did you apply to go on britain's got talent? if not? why not?

[tony higgins]

I seem to recall you saying prior to the election that you didn't have the time to debate the issues with what you termed 'cybernats'. Better things to do you said!

Funny now that you've not got what you wanted from the Election you're 'shooting off' against anything or anybody connected to the SNP.

Where you finding all the time to post now? Did you lose your seat?

Take a leaf out of Lucky's book and show some dignity in defeat. You are one sore loser!!

:greengrin

[J-C]

I see that the government are planning new redundancy laws that favour employers. Osborne was on about it.

What do the SNP think about that? Or do they have no reaction?

It's not just happening in England.



This may be one of those laws implimented throughout Britain and the SNP have no powers to overturn it, they've only got limited powers at Holyrood at the moment, hence why things may begin to change now SNP have full power.

[One Day Soon]

I seem to recall you saying prior to the election that you didn't have the time to debate the issues with what you termed 'cybernats'. Better things to do you said!

No that is not what I said. I started contributing to this thread in early to mid April on around page 4 and kept doing so pretty consistently throughout. I did say that if I stopped to engage with every cyber Gnat posting then I wouldn't get much else done. To be fair I have argued the piece with most postings and in consequence have gotten a lot less done than I ought.

Funny now that you've not got what you wanted from the Election you're 'shooting off' against anything or anybody connected to the SNP.

I haven't been "'shooting off' against anything or anybody connected to the SNP." I have mostly made four criticisms of the judgement of Salmond. And I haven't done this "now that you've not got what you wanted from the Election". I was consistently contributing to this thread well before the election was concluded.

Where you finding all the time to post now? Did you lose your seat?

I'm posting less now than I was during the election, which you would know if you read through it properly.

Take a leaf out of Lucky's book and show some dignity in defeat. You are one sore loser!!

Do you really imagine that just because the frankly awful excuse for an election debate that we have now finished with is past, no-one is going to ask questions of - or challenge the claims made about - the SNP administration of the past four years and the next five? The last time I checked this was still a democracy so the debate never stops.

As for dignity in defeat I'm happy to congratulate the SNP and Alex Salmond on their impressive win and their overall majority. Having done that the next thing I would like is some clear answers on their manifesto promises and on the budget cuts we all face.

No-one should be deflected from questioning any government - and certainly not by an attempt to make illegitimate the challenging of spin, broken promises and the politics of lollypops and sunshine which I think is what is being attempted with the 'we are Scotland and any attack on us is negative politics' line.

[One Day Soon]

Hmm, if you'd dread it then yes, he'd do nicely. Or indeed bookies' favourite, Jackie Baillie. With Ed down south and her up here, Labour sure know how to pick 'em!

Won't be Baillie and no comment on the wrong Miliband.

[One Day Soon]

:tee hee: i think everyone has noticed that :wink:

I'm surprised you managed to notice anything what with your delight at all the imminent 'jam yesterday, jam today and jam tomorrow' freebies you are anticipating.

I'm sore alright, mainly about the utterly misleading election we have just been through in which the truth about the cuts that are coming has been left to one side in a conspiracy of silence between the parties. Well the music has stopped and the majority SNP government is sitting holding the loudly ticking parcel. What comes next won't be pretty.

[One Day Soon]

i have been reading this thread since day one but have only felt the need to post now. one day soon!! you are a comic genius. you have made me laugh so much it is not true. Did you apply to go on britain's got talent? if not? why not?

As posted previously, one is always pleased to bring a little happiness.

Anyway, surely you mean 'Scotland's got talent'?

[One Day Soon]

I think Tricia Marwick is fantastic, who wants to agree with me how fantastic Tricia Marwick is?

No really, I actually mean it. I'm very pleased she is now Presiding Officer. The first non stuffed-shirt to hold the post and the first woman. Good. I hope she makes a great success of it.