Hamas attack on Israel

[JimBHibees]

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I don't know Jamie, I don't have a crystal ball. But one thing's for damned sure - allowing the occupying force to continue shooting unarmed civilians and commiting war crime after crime isn't a good enough reason to let that uncertainty be a critical factor in disbanding a genocidal regime.

Absolutely

[jamie_1875]

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They're the first line of war crimes more like.

But also the last line of defence for the people of Israel? I can ask you the same question, without the IDF what do you think would happen to the people of Israel? Have a guess?

[Smartie]

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But also the last line of defence for the people of Israel? I can ask you the same question, without the IDF what do you think would happen to the people of Israel? Have a guess?

Are there only really the two options though - a defenceless Israel and the IDF in its current form?

Is it so wrong to strive for an IDF that robustly keeps the Israeli people safe but is a bit lighter on the old genocide and war crimes?

[Sylar]

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You could probably make a good guess as to what would happen to the citizens of Israel couldn't you?

No IDF around as they have disappeared and Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are pretty much free to do what they want and we got a taste of that on the 7th October. Imagine that across all Israel.

It's all well and fine to say death the IDF etc but the reality is they are the last line of defence against the terrorists and yes there is justification in saying Israel are the terrorists here but I don't think people who agree with death to the IDF or they want them to disappear understand the consequences of that, hence you said you didn't know what would happen but I think you do and I am guessing it's not something you would support.

Another way of asking the question is with no IDF (as you have said that is your wish) how do the Israeli people protect themselves from the likes of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran? Create a nicer kinder version of the IDF?

You've repeated this twice now, and I haven't said any such thing. I said it was my wish that one day those within the IDF who have perpetrated these war crimes will stand legal trial before the Hague.

But yes, something has to give in the interim because the ongoing genocide is not morally acceptable for anyone. And of course I don't want to see Israeli citizens being killed. I don't want to see ANY citizens of ANY state being killed, regardless of their race, creed, colour, sexuality or religion. Step 1 toward that vision being a reality is to remove those who are actively killing civilians on a daily basis.

[easty]

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But also the last line of defence for the people of Israel? I can ask you the same question, without the IDF what do you think would happen to the people of Israel? Have a guess?

I've never suggested completely removing the IDF. There's a chasm of middle ground between removing Israel's right of defence and stopping killing innocent children.

[jamie_1875]

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Are there only really the two options though - a defenceless Israel and the IDF in its current form?

Is it so wrong to strive for an IDF that robustly keeps the Israeli people safe but is a bit lighter on the old genocide?

Not wrong at all, but that's not what people are saying or seemingly supporting. "Death to the IDF" or "I want them to disappear" is not that same as "I still want the IDF but a nicer kinder and gentler version of them" I did give that as an option though.

[Moulin Yarns]

The D in IDF supposedly standing for defence, why then are they occupying Gaza. Defend Israel by all means but don't destroy the neighbouring country.

[JimBHibees]

Interesting that a few comments from the stage are seen as much more important than genocide and war crimes. Complete and utter deflection. Rock artists have always been seen as sometimes highlighting injustices throughout history be that civi rights, Vietnam, fighting fascism etc. Is this any different?

[He's here!]

Glastonbury: Police launch investigation into Bob Vylan and Kneecap sets - BBC News https://share.google/uJ4ofwObXnLJFgLUv

Criminal investigation launched into Bob Vylan and Kneecap Glastonbury sets.

[Kato]

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Interesting that a few comments from the stage are seen as much more important than genocide and war crimes. Complete and utter deflection. Rock artists have always been seen as sometimes highlighting injustices throughout history be that civi rights, Vietnam, fighting fascism etc. Is this any different?

Nope.

But we are obliged to imagine an incident, like some magical bible stuff, whereby the IDF disappear overnight, then is it anti-semitic?

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[Sylar]

Israeli strike on Gaza seafront cafe kills at least 20 Palestinians, witnesses and rescuers say https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62884y1pl5o

But sure, Bob Vylan are the issue…

[Pretty Boy]

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Not wrong at all, but that's not what people are saying or seemingly supporting. "Death to the IDF" or "I want them to disappear" is not that same as "I still want the IDF but a nicer kinder and gentler version of them" I did give that as an option though.

'Disband the RUC' was a popular rallying call among Republicans during the troubles in Northern Ireland. I never took that to mean that the north of Ireland shouldn't have a police force at all but rather that the one they had was unfit for purpose. Collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries, sectarian prejudices and misuse of emergency powers all made it an obvious target for protest.

Death to the IDF is a more extreme version of that and I do think the wording is a bit unfortunate but I don't take it as an out and out call for Israel to have no armed forces. Israel has the right to defend itself; what it doesn't have is the right to slaughter people collecting humanitarian aid or sing their own songs of joy about destroying villages and schools before going on to do exactly that.

The IDF is an obvious target in the same way the RUC was because they are openly abusing their position of power in a comparable way.

[Kato]

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But also the last line of defence for the people of Israel? I can ask you the same question, without the IDF what do you think would happen to the people of Israel? Have a guess?

You're so great at mental gymnastics that if they were physical gymnastics you'd have a shot at a Gold Medal.

Yet over on the BBC bias thread you managed a triple somersault in avoiding answering this..


"When Benjamin Netanyahu made his "Amalek" speech, referring to the biblical verses in which their tribal war God (ie God) urged a genocide, broadcast throughout Israeland applied to the Palestinian people rather than Hamas, the BBC didn't and have yet to mention it.

The bible says on the Amalekites "I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants....”."


Who is more blood thirsty, in the real actual sense of making it a reality? A punk band or the Prime Minister of Israel?

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[He's here!]

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'Disband the RUC' was a popular rallying call among Republicans during the troubles in Northern Ireland. I never took that to mean that the north of Ireland shouldn't have a police force at all but rather that the one they had was unfit for purpose. Collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries, sectarian prejudices and misuse of emergency powers all made it an obvious target for protest.

Death to the IDF is a more extreme version of that and I do think the wording is a bit unfortunate but I don't take it as an out and out call for Israel to have no armed forces. Israel has the right to defend itself; what it doesn't have is the right to slaughter people collecting humanitarian aid or sing their own songs of joy about destroying villages and schools before going on to do exactly that.

The IDF is an obvious target in the same way the RUC was because they are openly abusing their position of power in a comparable way.

I struggle to see any ambiguity around the wording. He didn't lead the crowd in a chant of 'disband the IDF'. It's pretty clear he wants its members dead.

As someone else has pointed out all this hand-wringing from the BBC and Glastonbury after the event really doesn't wash. They simply shouldn't have filmed/booked an act like that if they wanted to avoid offence.

[Kato]

I don't even understand why Glastonbury is on TV. In particular why its on the BBC.

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[JimBHibees]

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I struggle to see any ambiguity around the wording. He didn't lead the crowd in a chant of 'disband the IDF'. It's pretty clear he wants its members dead.

As someone else has pointed out all this hand-wringing from the BBC and Glastonbury after the event really doesn't wash. They simply shouldn't have filmed/booked an act like that if they wanted to avoid offence.

But in the grand scheme of things means next to nothing when civilians are being slaughtered for being Palestinian

[jamie_1875]

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You're so great at mental gymnastics that if they were physical gymnastics you'd have a shot at a Gold Medal.

Yet over on the BBC bias thread you managed a triple somersault in avoiding answering this..


"When Benjamin Netanyahu made his "Amalek" speech, referring to the biblical verses in which their tribal war God (ie God) urged a genocide, broadcast throughout Israeland applied to the Palestinian people rather than Hamas, the BBC didn't and have yet to mention it.

The bible says on the Amalekites "I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants....”."


Who is more blood thirsty, in the real actual sense of making it a reality? A punk band or the Prime Minister of Israel?

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I have no idea what that speech was or is about so sorry no idea what my answer is. If from your analysis above he was calling for the death of all Palestinians then that's considerably worse than shouting death to the IDF. You know it is possible to condemn both sides.

I am merely pointing out those saying death to the IDF or they should disappear need to grasp the consequences of what that means.

[Kato]

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I have no idea what that speech was or is about so sorry no idea what my answer is. If from your analysis above he was calling for the death of all Palestinians then that's considerably worse than shouting death to the IDF. You know it is possible to condemn both sides.

...yet again the extent of your curiousity and googling skills show no beginning.

Just to help you along (again) it was Netanyahu calling for, about a year ago, the eradication of all Palestinians. All of them.

I am merely pointing out those saying death to the IDF or they should disappear need to grasp the consequences of what that means.

...if a magical, Bibley event happened.



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[jamie_1875]

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...yet again the extent of your curiousity and googling skills show no beginning.

Just to help you along (again) it was Netanyahu calling for, about a year ago, the eradication of all Palestinians. All of them.



...if a magical, Bibley event happened.



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👍 I would be lost without you.

[Kato]

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I would be lost without you.

No worries.

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[Pretty Boy]

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I struggle to see any ambiguity around the wording. He didn't lead the crowd in a chant of 'disband the IDF'. It's pretty clear he wants its members dead.

As someone else has pointed out all this hand-wringing from the BBC and Glastonbury after the event really doesn't wash. They simply shouldn't have filmed/booked an act like that if they wanted to avoid offence.

I think there is plenty ambiguity.

I saw Tyler The Creator a few years back and he told his audience to 'stab any blogging ****ing hipster with a pitchfork' and had everyone recite it back to him. I didn't take it literally and believe I was to go out and murder hipsters or that I should want them dead.

And maybe Glastonbury didn't want to censor every act that could have been potentially offensive or provocative. Rod Stewart had a platform; he could have used it to say 'stop the boats' and tell us that he was right about Enoch Powell all along. Live performance is unpredictable. The only disappointment for me about Glastonbury is that they have apologised, I understand why they did but I wish they hadn't. And I'd say the same if Rod had used his slot to air a Reforma party political broadcast.

[easty]

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Glastonbury: Police launch investigation into Bob Vylan and Kneecap sets - BBC News https://share.google/uJ4ofwObXnLJFgLUv

Criminal investigation launched into Bob Vylan and Kneecap Glastonbury sets.

https://x.com/ukip/status/1939635314672423154?s=46&t=D_9KaoRnzKU_iJPtdJwUXQ

UKIP want to deport him. I dunno where, cos he’s English.

[Pretty Boy]

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https://x.com/ukip/status/1939635314672423154?s=46&t=D_9KaoRnzKU_iJPtdJwUXQ

UKIP want to deport him. I dunno where, cos he’s English.

And there it is.

When it comes to the leadership of UKIP, Reform, Reclaim, the Brexit Party, Britain First etc etc it always comes down to one thing. The Crux of the matter is always ultimately the same.

'He might say he's from Ipswich but we'll send him back to that Ooga Booga Land he's REALLY from'

[Kato]

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And there it is.

When it comes to the leadership of UKIP, Reform, Reclaim, the Brexit Party, Britain First etc etc it always comes down to one thing. The Crux of the matter is always ultimately the same.

'He might say he's from Ipswich but we'll send him back to that Ooga Booga Land he's REALLY from'

A taste of what they'll once "those who have had enough" vote them into power.

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[Paulie Walnuts]

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I struggle to see any ambiguity around the wording. He didn't lead the crowd in a chant of 'disband the IDF'. It's pretty clear he wants its members dead.

As someone else has pointed out all this hand-wringing from the BBC and Glastonbury after the event really doesn't wash. They simply shouldn't have filmed/booked an act like that if they wanted to avoid offence.

Do you really struggle to see it?

When rangers were liquidated I was desperate for Rangers to die. I couldn’t wait and said as much over and over again. I wasn’t wanting their players, manager, staff and supporters dead though.

There’s plenty ambiguity. It just doesn’t suit your argument to admit that.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

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Are there only really the two options though - a defenceless Israel and the IDF in its current form?

Is it so wrong to strive for an IDF that robustly keeps the Israeli people safe but is a bit lighter on the old genocide and war crimes?

I’ve not read further down the thread than this but for me you’ve hit the nail on the head. Northern Ireland still has a police force, but the RUC no longer exists. Why can the IDF not be disbanded and a new reformed defence force take it place? Unless of course it’s because their primary purpose isn’t really to defend at all, but to conquer…


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[Hibspur]

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Do you really struggle to see it?

When rangers were liquidated I was desperate for Rangers to die. I couldn’t wait and said as much over and over again. I wasn’t wanting their players, manager, staff and supporters dead though.

There’s plenty ambiguity. It just doesn’t suit your argument to admit that.

I disagree.

Another poster made the Rangers liquidation comparison earlier and as I said then it doesn't stack up. Of course it was funny seeing them go under (I was also desperately hoping Hearts would disappear around the same time) but as you say nobody was wanting the people at the club to die as well.

This is entirely different. Its enemies hate Israel with a ferocity that makes any football rivalry seem utterly trivial. They want it erased from the face of the earth and I think anyone who witnessed the way the chant was delivered understands completely what Bob Vylan were calling for. Death to the IDF means death. If they'd meant 'disband', 'abolish' or 'reform' they could quite easily have said so. Wouldn't have carried the same shock value though.

I've just noticed that their US visas have been revoked for their forthcoming tour.

[Hibspur]

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I don't even understand why Glastonbury is on TV. In particular why its on the BBC.

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Mentioned it on the Glastonbury thread the other day. I think the BBC have lost the rights to so many events that they once assumed were theirs for all time that they're trying to fabricate this 'great British summer' theme around the ones they still have. 'Glasto' has taken on the status of a Wimbledon curtain raiser and that will be followed by the Women's Euros. The controversy which has erupted around Glastonbury and their own incompetence in fanning the flames most likely wasn't part of the plan.

[Kato]

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Mentioned it on the Glastonbury thread the other day. I think the BBC have lost the rights to so many events that they once assumed were theirs for all time that they're trying to fabricate this 'great British summer' theme around the ones they still have. 'Glasto' has taken on the status of a Wimbledon curtain raiser and that will be followed by the Women's Euros. The controversy which has erupted around Glastonbury and their own incompetence in fanning the flames most likely wasn't part of the plan.

Fanning the flames of what?

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[jamie_1875]

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I’ve not read further down the thread than this but for me you’ve hit the nail on the head. Northern Ireland still has a police force, but the RUC no longer exists. Why can the IDF not be disbanded and a new reformed defence force take it place? Unless of course it’s because their primary purpose isn’t really to defend at all, but to conquer…


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So they disband the current IDF and then what? Hold interviews for the new reformed IDF where applicants have to pass tests about how nice people they are and how they will be kind?