Scottish Independence

[Stairway 2 7]

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I'm pretty sure there's not a whole load of Indians cursing us Scottish for the mere fact of thinking we're in a colony.

"Google, what's the definition of a colony"

A colony, according to the UN, is a territory under the political control of a foreign power, often one that is distant, with a subordinate colonial government. It's essentially a piece of land controlled by another country. The term "colony" is now frequently replaced with "dependent territory".

"Wikipedia, what's the definition of a colony"

A colony is a territory subject to a form of foreign rule, [1] which rules the territory and its indigenous peoples separated from the foreign rulers.

What is a colony Cambridge Dictionary?

colony [noun] (a group of people who form) a settlement in one country etc which is under the rule of another country. colony [noun] a group of people having the same interests, living close together. colony [noun] a collection of animals, birds etc, of one type, living together. settlement [noun] a small community.

What is the UN definition of colonization?
It designates processes through which a State acquires or maintains full or partial political control over another sovereign nation, or subjugation of groups or entities over others, including terms such as economic, cultural, or ideological colonialism.

I'll rely on all the above quotes from, I think you'll agree, reputable sources. I'll refrain from arguing about it because I don't know enough but the fact is neither do you. Simply to say you don't feel colonised doesn't mean you're not.

None of the definitions have any corelation to us. We don't have foreign rule we have representation as a proportion of our population, we voted not long ago to stay in the union, two of the last 8 PMs were Scottish. What many would say are our most important issues, education, health, housing, social care, crime are all devolved.

[Ozyhibby]

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None of the definitions have any corelation to us. We don't have foreign rule we have representation as a proportion of our population, we voted not long ago to stay in the union, two of the last 8 PMs were Scottish. What many would say are our most important issues, education, health, housing, social care, crime are all devolved.

Fully agree with that, we are not a colony. There is a problem with the withdrawal of self determination that we had in 2014. There is no longer a democratic route to independence. That is a problem going forward.


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[Andy Bee]

For anyone interested in the views of Prof Alf Baird here's a Youtube vid of him on the TNT Show a couple of weeks ago with John Drummond. Starts around 11 mins in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoX3jbDb710

[Hibs4185]

100% we are a colony by definition, whether you agree with it or not is a different matter.

The fact that Starmer won’t grant another referendum no matter the result of the 2026 election further enhances the arguemeny we are a colony.

Part of being colonised is making people believe they aren’t colonised

[jamie_1875]

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For anyone interested in the views of Prof Alf Baird here's a Youtube vid of him on the TNT Show a couple of weeks ago with John Drummond. Starts around 11 mins in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoX3jbDb710

I googled Alf Baird having never heard of him.

"Alf Baird was formerly Professor of Maritime Business and Director of the Maritime Transport Research Group at Edinburgh Napier University. He also has a PhD in Strategic Management in Global Shipping. His earlier career included working in the shipping industry running international liner shipping services from Scotland"

I mean he sounds like a clever guy but an expert on UN policy and colonies....

This is all related to the Salvo movement and the Claim of Right I believe. The Claim of Right is a hundreds years old document full of sectarian slurs, I am struggling to see how it has any relevance to a modern and progressive Scotland.

I mean let's see where it goes but I am 99.99% sure it goes absolutely nowhere.

[Andy Bee]

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None of the definitions have any corelation to us. We don't have foreign rule we have representation as a proportion of our population, we voted not long ago to stay in the union, two of the last 8 PMs were Scottish. What many would say are our most important issues, education, health, housing, social care, crime are all devolved.

Representation?

I'll remind you of the quote by Daniel Defoe.

“The Scots will be allowed to send to Westminster, a handful of men who will make no weight whatever.

They will be allowed to sit there for form’s sake to be laughed at.”

That representation?

[Stairway 2 7]

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Representation?

I'll remind you of the quote by Daniel Defoe.

“The Scots will be allowed to send to Westminster, a handful of men who will make no weight whatever.

They will be allowed to sit there for form’s sake to be laughed at.”

That representation?

Defoe was deed when Blair and Brown led Britain and when Scotland voted no to independence in a fair free election

[Andy Bee]

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I googled Alf Baird having never heard of him.

"Alf Baird was formerly Professor of Maritime Business and Director of the Maritime Transport Research Group at Edinburgh Napier University. He also has a PhD in Strategic Management in Global Shipping. His earlier career included working in the shipping industry running international liner shipping services from Scotland"

I mean he sounds like a clever guy but an expert on UN policy and colonies....

This is all related to the Salvo movement and the Claim of Right I believe. The Claim of Right is a hundreds years old document full of sectarian slurs, I am struggling to see how it has any relevance to a modern and progressive Scotland.

I mean let's see where it goes but I am 99.99% sure it goes absolutely nowhere.

He's also been called in by various countries to solve maritime border disputes after decolonisation. Watch the vid or better still read the book I recommended then if you still think Scotland is not a colony then fair play, you've educated yourself and formed your own opinion based on those findings.

I'm not sure what your point is regards the Claim of Rights being hundreds of years old unless you're trying to belittle it to suit your own argument, you wouldn't be doing that would you?. Most laws today are hundreds of years old and still adhered to in a modern society. Thou shall not murder is fairly old innit?

The sole purpose of Liberation Scotland is to take their case via the Swiss NGO to C-24 i.e. Special Committee on Decolonization in the UN and attempt to have Scotland listed as an NSGT (Non Self Governing Territory) if succesful it'll go on a list of countries which are deemed as a country which hasn't exercised it's right to self determination yet. At that point we can ask the UN to administer a referendum using their franchise i'e no outside influence from political or media sources and the voters have to be a citizen of that country only amongst other things I can't remember.

[Andy Bee]

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Defoe was deed when Blair and Brown led Britain and when Scotland voted no to independence in a fair free election

Ahhh that was before the six mandates democratically voted for another Independence referendum in six "fair free elections" and voting to stay in Europe only to be dragged out. I remember now.

TBF The Defoe quote still rings true today, I laugh at Wishart all the time.

[jamie_1875]

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He's also been called in by various countries to solve maritime border disputes after decolonisation. Watch the vid or better still read the book I recommended then if you still think Scotland is not a colony then fair play, you've educated yourself and formed your own opinion based on those findings.

I'm not sure what your point is regards the Claim of Rights being hundreds of years old unless you're trying to belittle it to suit your own argument, you wouldn't be doing that would you?. Most laws today are hundreds of years old and still adhered to in a modern society. Thou shall not murder is fairly old innit?

The sole purpose of Liberation Scotland is to take their case via the Swiss NGO to C-24 i.e. Special Committee on Decolonization in the UN and attempt to have Scotland listed as an NSGT (Non Self Governing Territory) if succesful it'll go on a list of countries which are deemed as a country which hasn't exercised it's right to self determination yet. At that point we can ask the UN to administer a referendum using their franchise i'e no outside influence from political or media sources and the voters have to be a citizen of that country only amongst other things I can't remember.

Good luck holding a referendum with no political or media influence in Scotland. I mean even saying that makes it sound kinda ridiculous. The UN have announced a referendum next February in Scotland but our politicians can't talk about it and the media can't discuss it....

As for the Claim of Rights I have looked at it to educate myself, it's a relic of a bygone day. Here is a quote from it.

"By allowing popish bookes to be printed and dispersed by a gift to a popish printer designeing him Printer to his Majesties househould Colledge and Chappell Contrair to the lawes

By takeing the children of Protestant Noblemen and gentlemen sending and keeping them abroad to be bred papists makeing great fonds and dotationes to popish schooles and Colledges abroad bestowing pensiones upon preists and perverting protestants from ther Religion by offers of places preferments and pensiones

By Dissarmeing protestants while at the same tyme he Imployed papists in the places of greatest trust civil and military such as Chancellor Secretaries Privie Counsellors and Lords of Sessione thrusting out protestants to make roome for papists and Intrusting the forts and magazins of the Kingdome in ther hands"

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1689/28

I just wouldn't get your hopes up that's all.

[Hibs4185]

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Good luck holding a referendum with no political or media influence in Scotland. I mean even saying that makes it sound kinda ridiculous. The UN have announced a referendum next February in Scotland but our politicians can't talk about it and the media can't discuss it....

As for the Claim of Rights I have looked at it to educate myself, it's a relic of a bygone day. Here is a quote from it.

"By allowing popish bookes to be printed and dispersed by a gift to a popish printer designeing him Printer to his Majesties househould Colledge and Chappell Contrair to the lawes

By takeing the children of Protestant Noblemen and gentlemen sending and keeping them abroad to be bred papists makeing great fonds and dotationes to popish schooles and Colledges abroad bestowing pensiones upon preists and perverting protestants from ther Religion by offers of places preferments and pensiones

By Dissarmeing protestants while at the same tyme he Imployed papists in the places of greatest trust civil and military such as Chancellor Secretaries Privie Counsellors and Lords of Sessione thrusting out protestants to make roome for papists and Intrusting the forts and magazins of the Kingdome in ther hands"

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1689/28

I just wouldn't get your hopes up that's all.

I’ve got my hopes up and I’m a well educated individual that has done his ‘research’.

Any action whether realistic or unrealistic which builds the case for independence is fine by me

[Hibrandenburg]

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Good luck holding a referendum with no political or media influence in Scotland. I mean even saying that makes it sound kinda ridiculous. The UN have announced a referendum next February in Scotland but our politicians can't talk about it and the media can't discuss it....

As for the Claim of Rights I have looked at it to educate myself, it's a relic of a bygone day. Here is a quote from it.

"By allowing popish bookes to be printed and dispersed by a gift to a popish printer designeing him Printer to his Majesties househould Colledge and Chappell Contrair to the lawes

By takeing the children of Protestant Noblemen and gentlemen sending and keeping them abroad to be bred papists makeing great fonds and dotationes to popish schooles and Colledges abroad bestowing pensiones upon preists and perverting protestants from ther Religion by offers of places preferments and pensiones

By Dissarmeing protestants while at the same tyme he Imployed papists in the places of greatest trust civil and military such as Chancellor Secretaries Privie Counsellors and Lords of Sessione thrusting out protestants to make roome for papists and Intrusting the forts and magazins of the Kingdome in ther hands"

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1689/28

I just wouldn't get your hopes up that's all.

Great news, I take it the Act of Union 1707 is also a relic of a bygone age.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Great news, I take it the Act of Union 1707 is also a relic of a bygone age.

Yes it is, we would never use it. It has been updated constantly by Parliament as parliamentary sovereignty takes precedence in the UK. Every time modern trade employment and economic laws change including Ireland joining the union in 1800 or brexit the law has to change.

It's like headcases during covid citing magna carta thinking modern UK parliamentary law doesn't take precedence

[Hibs4185]

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Yes it is, we would never use it. It has been updated constantly by Parliament as parliamentary sovereignty takes precedence in the UK. Every time modern trade employment and economic laws change including Ireland joining the union in 1800 or brexit the law has to change.

It's like headcases during covid citing magna carta thinking modern UK parliamentary law doesn't take precedence

So if this is the case why does scotland have its own Scot’s law and not UK law and why is the scottish crown laying idle?

The claim by Salvo and liberation scotland is that the two countries constitution are incompatible with each other and the laws to reconcile both counties as per the act of union was never enacted, England merely took over, if the UK parliament is sovereign and new laws have taken precedent over act of union etc then why don’t we have one legal system for the whole UK?

Northern Ireland, Wales and England all use the same system?

All these claims whether you support it or not will ultimately be decided by the UN which is the point I suppose.

If you study the Salvo case and the definition of a colony, it’s very hard to come to any other conclusion that Scotland is a colony.

A further point, the NGO whose help was needed to approach the UN, they are wholly independent and they also fully support the claims. These are not some mad nut cases that support anything.

[Ozyhibby]

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So if this is the case why does scotland have its own Scot’s law and not UK law and why is the scottish crown laying idle?

The claim by Salvo and liberation scotland is that the two countries constitution are incompatible with each other and the laws to reconcile both counties as per the act of union was never enacted, England merely took over, if the UK parliament is sovereign and new laws have taken precedent over act of union etc then why don’t we have one legal system for the whole UK?

Northern Ireland, Wales and England all use the same system?

All these claims whether you support it or not will ultimately be decided by the UN which is the point I suppose.

If you study the Salvo case and the definition of a colony, it’s very hard to come to any other conclusion that Scotland is a colony.

A further point, the NGO whose help was needed to approach the UN, they are wholly independent and they also fully support the claims. These are not some mad nut cases that support anything.

It will ultimately be decided by the people of Scotland, not the UN. There are no shortcuts here. First we need to make sure a majority want independence. The ‘how’ Will fall into place afterwards.


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[Andy Bee]

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It will ultimately be decided by the people of Scotland, not the UN. There are no shortcuts here. First we need to make sure a majority want independence. The ‘how’ Will fall into place afterwards.


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I don't think anyone is suggesting the UN will decide anything without the will of the majority of people. The case is to try and get Scotland recognised as an NSGT and if successful they can help facilitate "The How" if needed. It's just another avenue which is being explored, I don't see a problem with that, if you support Indy then why not support this until either it's successful or it's shot down?

[Ozyhibby]

Two countries moving in a different directions.


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[Andy Bee]

For anyone interested the SSRG Conference is taking place this weekend starting today. Live Youtube tickets can be purchased for the event at £5. Speakers like Jim Sillars, Tim Rideout, Sara Salyers, Tommy Sheridan and Richard Murphy are just some of the lineup.

https://www.ssrg-conference.com/agenda

[Hibs4185]

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For anyone interested the SSRG Conference is taking place this weekend starting today. Live Youtube tickets can be purchased for the event at £5. Speakers like Jim Sillars, Tim Rideout, Sara Salyers, Tommy Sheridan and Richard Murphy are just some of the lineup.

https://www.ssrg-conference.com/agenda

Id love to watch some of it but the rangers game and a few beers wil get in the way!

[jamie_1875]

Is Tommy Sheridan really people on the Independence side someone they want to be associated with? A quote from him below. I mean from the list above just add Craig Murray and you have a full set.

“Russia is not my enemy and their military action against Ukraine was provoked by the aggressive actions of NATO. Russia is justified in defending itself from NATO aggression. The US and NATO are the root cause of world instability not Russia or China.”

[Ozyhibby]

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Is Tommy Sheridan really people on the Independence side someone they want to be associated with? A quote from him below. I mean from the list above just add Craig Murray and you have a full set.

“Russia is not my enemy and their military action against Ukraine was provoked by the aggressive actions of NATO. Russia is justified in defending itself from NATO aggression. The US and NATO are the root cause of world instability not Russia or China.”

Which is why the SNP have nothing to do with this.


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[jamie_1875]

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Which is why the SNP have nothing to do with this.


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Entirely sensible move based on that line up.

[Hibs4185]

I follow a lot of the hard core independence guys and they often spout nonsense about ‘fascist Ukraine’.

It makes my blood boil but I suppose that’s a point about independence that I think needs reinforced over and over again.

Independence isn’t all about the SNP. In an independence scotland you can vote for whatever party matches your own beliefs, whether you’re a republican, anti-war, pro Palestinian, for Brexit or against it.

You can be pro-Russian and vote for a scottish communist party.

It generally amazes me how many people think that you’d be stuck with the SNP and their policies for ever if you yes.

I’d actually go as far to say that all pro-independence parties including the SNP should be disbanded in an independent scotland and new parties formed based on whatever policies they want to pursue.

You can even vote for a unionist party to rejoin Britain

[Andy Bee]

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I follow a lot of the hard core independence guys and they often spout nonsense about ‘fascist Ukraine’.

It makes my blood boil but I suppose that’s a point about independence that I think needs reinforced over and over again.

Independence isn’t all about the SNP. In an independence scotland you can vote for whatever party matches your own beliefs, whether you’re a republican, anti-war, pro Palestinian, for Brexit or against it.

You can be pro-Russian and vote for a scottish communist party.

It generally amazes me how many people think that you’d be stuck with the SNP and their policies for ever if you yes.

I’d actually go as far to say that all pro-independence parties including the SNP should be disbanded in an independent scotland and new parties formed based on whatever policies they want to pursue.

Alba, ISP and others take that stance, not so much the SNP. It gets my goat when they come out with things like the Independence papers for post independence, it's nothing to do with them what happens post Independence that's down to a Constitutional Convention, perish the thought if Indy is gained that we revert to a mini Westminster type system, direct democracy all the way for me.

[jamie_1875]

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I follow a lot of the hard core independence guys and they often spout nonsense about ‘fascist Ukraine’.

It makes my blood boil but I suppose that’s a point about independence that I think needs reinforced over and over again.

Independence isn’t all about the SNP. In an independence scotland you can vote for whatever party matches your own beliefs, whether you’re a republican, anti-war, pro Palestinian, for Brexit or against it.

You can be pro-Russian and vote for a scottish communist party.

It generally amazes me how many people think that you’d be stuck with the SNP and their policies for ever if you yes.

I’d actually go as far to say that all pro-independence parties including the SNP should be disbanded in an independent scotland and new parties formed based on whatever policies they want to pursue.

You can even vote for a unionist party to rejoin Britain

Why does Scotland need to be Independent to vote for the parties or beliefs you list above? Republican, anti war, pro palestine, pro Russian etc. If there is demand for those parties today wouldn't they exist?

[Hibs4185]

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Why does Scotland need to be Independent to vote for the parties or beliefs you list above? Republican, anti war, pro palestine, pro Russian etc. If there is demand for those parties today wouldn't they exist?

Doesn’t have to be at all, I’m just pointing out that independence voters have all manner of different political beliefs

[Ozyhibby]

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I follow a lot of the hard core independence guys and they often spout nonsense about ‘fascist Ukraine’.

It makes my blood boil but I suppose that’s a point about independence that I think needs reinforced over and over again.

Independence isn’t all about the SNP. In an independence scotland you can vote for whatever party matches your own beliefs, whether you’re a republican, anti-war, pro Palestinian, for Brexit or against it.

You can be pro-Russian and vote for a scottish communist party.

It generally amazes me how many people think that you’d be stuck with the SNP and their policies for ever if you yes.

I’d actually go as far to say that all pro-independence parties including the SNP should be disbanded in an independent scotland and new parties formed based on whatever policies they want to pursue.

You can even vote for a unionist party to rejoin Britain

The SNP would probably survive as the only centre left party in Scotland.


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[Hibs4185]

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The SNP would probably survive as the only centre left party in Scotland.


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Yeah but I think a new party should be formed. It can be the new SNP but a lot of floating voters don’t vote yes because they don’t like the SNP.

The SNP should be for getting independence. Once it’s achieved it should be disbanded and a new party with the same policies should be formed.

It’s like there is some independence supporters support Brexit. Once we are independent they can vote for an anti-EU party. But at this moment time the SNP are pro-EU so the potential yes voter won’t vote for the SNP.

I know the SNP would never agree to it but I genuinely feel it’s a key aspect in gaining independence

Just another point, the SNP should be a melting pot of all political views all coming together to gain independence. You should be able to be conservative financially and support independence or liberal and support all the transgender stuff that’s been going on all
Under the SNP roof.

[Ozyhibby]

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Yeah but I think a new party should be formed. It can be the new SNP but a lot of floating voters don’t vote yes because they don’t like the SNP.

The SNP should be for getting independence. Once it’s achieved it should be disbanded and a new party with the same policies should be formed.

It’s like there is some independence supporters support Brexit. Once we are independent they can vote for an anti-EU party. But at this moment time the SNP are pro-EU so the potential yes voter won’t vote for the SNP.

I know the SNP would never agree to it but I genuinely feel it’s a key aspect in gaining independence

Just another point, the SNP should be a melting pot of all political views all coming together to gain independence. You should be able to be conservative financially and support independence or liberal and support all the transgender stuff that’s been going on all
Under the SNP roof.

I neither agree or disagree. I really don’t care what they do after Indy. I’m a mostly centrist voter so there will be someone who caters for my needs.


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[Hibs4185]

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I neither agree or disagree. I really don’t care what they do after Indy. I’m a mostly centrist voter so there will be someone who caters for my needs.


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That’s what I mean, the SNP or new SNP can rebrand or re-align with whatever they feel is the most important issues for them.

If it’s centrist, centre left or whatever, but for the time being they have to be open to every political view in order to achieve their main priority.

Except for racists etc of course , but jets face it they’d never join or vote SNP anyway