The Trans Rights Debate

[147lothian]

Trump has signed an Executive Order banning males from taking part in female sports.

One of the striking things about this is the clarity of the language. How has it fallen to Donald Trump to be the defender of women and girls sports? This was a remarkable announcement about something that should be unremarkable. Did anyone see Trump surrounded by all these girls waiting to applaud him at the right time. Sports in schools is a massive deal in America. A lot of people must be trying to get their heads around how this was ever able to happen in the first place that biological men could compete in women's sports and certain governing bodies turned a blind eye to it. I'm not a fan of Trump's but credit where it's due this is an entirely sensible move, it's also one that will be followed by other countries when common sense returns, at some time in future we will probably look back in horror that this was ever able to happen, this happened because a radical and vocal politically motivated minority managed to persuade governing institutions to follow them into fantasy land.

[Bishop Hibee]

Totally agree with the poster above. It’s genuinely ‘Emperor’s New Clothes’ stuff. As an aside, I certainly wouldn’t want to be treated by a doctor who thinks biological sex is nebulous.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Totally agree with the poster above. It’s genuinely ‘Emperor’s New Clothes’ stuff. As an aside, I certainly wouldn’t want to be treated by a doctor who thinks biological sex is nebulous.

Personally, I don't care what my doctor's religious, political, moral or social views are. They could be the complete antithesis of everything that I think, feel or believe.

All I would be interested in is whether they could do their job and help me.

[lapsedhibee]

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I certainly wouldn’t want to be treated by a doctor who thinks biological sex is nebulous.

Do you think it might be catching?

[Stairway 2 7]

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Personally, I don't care what my doctor's religious, political, moral or social views are. They could be the complete antithesis of everything that I think, feel or believe.

All I would be interested in is whether they could do their job and help me.

There's a difference from beliefs and saying something that's scientifically wrong in a field that is life and death. Many medicines and treatments are deadly in doses given to the wrong sex. There is also some illnesses that effect people with xy chromosomes.

I've no problem with someone spiritually believing that sex isn't defined but biologically it simply is.

[jamie_1875]

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Personally, I don't care what my doctor's religious, political, moral or social views are. They could be the complete antithesis of everything that I think, feel or believe.

All I would be interested in is whether they could do their job and help me.

So why did you say you would ask the nurse if she would have a problem changing next to a lesbian then? What was the relevance of that if you don't care and she was treating you?

[Moulin Yarns]

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So why did you say you would ask the nurse if she would have a problem changing next to a lesbian then? What was the relevance of that if you don't care and she was treating you?

This from the nurse manager at the tribunal


When asked by Ms Cunningham if she had any reason to doubt whether Ms Peggie's feelings of intimidation and embarrassment were genuine, she said no.

But she added: "There are other nurses who go into the toilet cubicles to get changed because they don't like getting changed in front of other women."




Some people are just uncomfortable changing in front of others. I don't think anyone would ask a changing room full of people if anyone is gay or trans.

[jamie_1875]

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This from the nurse manager at the tribunal


When asked by Ms Cunningham if she had any reason to doubt whether Ms Peggie's feelings of intimidation and embarrassment were genuine, she said no.

But she added: "There are other nurses who go into the toilet cubicles to get changed because they don't like getting changed in front of other women."




Some people are just uncomfortable changing in front of others. I don't think anyone would ask a changing room full of people if anyone is gay or trans.

Sorry struggling to see the point you are making here?

[Moulin Yarns]

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Sorry struggling to see the point you are making here?

OK, put it another way, not every gay or trans person is obviously gay or trans. How would you know if the person next to you in a changing room identifies in a particular way?

If you saw Dr Upton passing in the street how would you identify her?

[jamie_1875]

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OK, put it another way, not every gay or trans person is obviously gay or trans. How would you know if the person next to you in a changing room identifies in a particular way?

If you saw Dr Upton passing in the street how would you identify her?

That's not what this particular case is about though. It's about a woman who knew "Beth" was and is a man getting changed next to her and her not feeling comfortable with it, then being suspended when she raised a concern.

The nurse wasn't passing him in the street, she was a woman in the woman's changing room who didn't want to get changed next to a man.

[Moulin Yarns]

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That's not what this particular case is about though. It's about a woman who knew "Beth" was and is a man getting changed next to her and her not feeling comfortable with it, then being suspended when she raised a concern.

The nurse wasn't passing him in the street, she was a woman in the woman's changing room who didn't want to get changed next to a man.

However, other nurses, who were not transphobic but didn't want to change in front of others, used toilet cubicles. Why didn't the nurse in question do the same if it bothered her so much?

[jamie_1875]

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However, other nurses, who were not transphobic but didn't want to change in front of others, used toilet cubicles. Why didn't the nurse in question do the same if it bothered her so much?

So she is a transphobe now is she?

So a woman who is in a woman's changing rooms, a safe space for woman, should be forced to get changed in a toilet cubicle so she didn't upset the feelings of a man in the woman's changing room is what you are saying?

You a man telling a woman what to do and think and where to change is not really a great look is it....

[Pretty Boy]

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However, other nurses, who were not transphobic but didn't want to change in front of others, used toilet cubicles. Why didn't the nurse in question do the same if it bothered her so much?

Maybe her particular objection was to changing in front of someone she viewed as a man rather than changing in front of people in general?

I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with her stance but the whole crux of the issue is around whether people born a different biological sex from their current gender identity should use single sex spaces so it's relevant in a way someone's sexuality isn't (in this instance).

[CropleyWasGod]

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So why did you say you would ask the nurse if she would have a problem changing next to a lesbian then? What was the relevance of that if you don't care and she was treating you?

I think you need to read my post about that again.

I suggested that the tribunal process might be served by asking her that question. They obviously think differently, since I don't think that has been raised. And, given the way the case has gone, it's maybe not relevant now.

[Stairway 2 7]

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I think you need to read my post about that again.

I suggested that the tribunal process might be served by asking her that question. They obviously think differently, since I don't think that has been raised. And, given the way the case has gone, it's maybe not relevant now.

When 99% of sexual assaults are committed by males so it's got zero relevance. Us born males have to wear that badge unfortunately because it's men that assault. A lesbian is a biological female the doctor wasn't.

This is another case like sports where giving someone ie trans females more rights should be vetoed as it takes away another groups rights, females that don't won't to get changed in front of biological males. Calling females that don't want to get changed in front of biological males transphobes is misogynistic and unfair. Women should be allowed safe spaces

[CropleyWasGod]

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When 99% of sexual assaults are committed by males so it's got zero relevance. Us born males have to wear that badge unfortunately because it's men that assault. A lesbian is a biological female the doctor wasn't.

This is another case like sports where giving someone ie trans females more rights should be vetoed as it takes away another groups rights, females that don't won't to get changed in front of biological males. Calling females that don't want to get changed in front of biological males transphobes is misogynistic and unfair. Women should be allowed safe spaces

It would have relevance if the tribunal heard that she had an issue with gay women ie she was a "phobe". But no-one has brought that up, so (in this case) it hasn't any relevance. Which is what I meant in my post

[Stairway 2 7]

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It would have relevance if the tribunal heard that she had an issue with gay women ie she was a "phobe". But no-one has brought that up, so (in this case) it hasn't any relevance. Which is what I implied in my post

She said at the time that she didn't want anyone with a ***** changing in the same room as her, lesbians don't have a ***** so that wasn't her objection. You may as well ask her if she's racist or anti disabled as both aren't what she objected too

[Moulin Yarns]

The question that I don't think has been answered is, how did nurse Peggie know that Dr Upton is a transgender woman ?

[Pretty Boy]

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She said at the time that she didn't want anyone with a ***** changing in the same room as her, lesbians don't have a ***** so that wasn't her objection. You may as well ask her if she's racist or anti disabled as both aren't what she objected too

I suppose it could be argued it was relevant if a pattern of bigoted or discriminatory behaviour could be shown.

Broadly I agree with you though. The issue here is about a woman objecting to someone born biologically male who she believes is still a male changing openly in a women's changing area. Personally I have no issue changing in communal spaces with other men and their sexual orientation never crosses my mind (it probably takes a certain kind of arrogance to assume a gay man is going to find a mere glimpse of my naked body somehow irresistible). I would feel uncomfortable changing in front of a woman though for various reasons, not least the worry I would be making them feel in any way intimidated or uncomfortable.

The whole case leaves me conflicted because I do feel there has to be a degree of provision in such settings for people in the process of transitioning and being repeatedly told 'you aren't a real woman' must be hurtful. Equally though men calling women 'transphobes' because they feel uncomfortable having someone with a ***** seeing them change or having to see said ***** when they don't wish to is creeping towards misogyny. It's one of those situations where simplistic slogans just don't cut it because it's too nuanced for that.

[CropleyWasGod]

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She said at the time that she didn't want anyone with a ***** changing in the same room as her, lesbians don't have a ***** so that wasn't her objection. You may as well ask her if she's racist or anti disabled as both aren't what she objected too

Did you not see the bit where I said "in this case it's not relevant"? I'm actually agreeing with you

[Stairway 2 7]

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Did you not see the bit where I said "in this case it's not relevant"? I'm actually agreeing with you

Sorry I didn't. Must be the shock of seeing someone I think is sensible agreeing with me, when I mostly post pish 😆

"I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member." Groucho Marx

[CropleyWasGod]

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Sorry I didn't. Must be the shock of seeing someone I think is sensible agreeing with me, when I mostly post pish ��

"I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member." Groucho Marx

ftr, I don't think you "mostly post pish". Only those times when you agree/disagree with me (delete as applicable).

[Moulin Yarns]

The question that I don't think has been answered is, how did nurse Peggie know that Dr Upton is a transgender woman ?

[Pretty Boy]

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The question that I don't think has been answered is, how did nurse Peggie know that Dr Upton is a transgender woman ?

Because she has male, or that should probably now be traditionally male, reproductive organs and they changed beside each other in an opening changing room?

[Stairway 2 7]

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The question that I don't think has been answered is, how did nurse Peggie know that Dr Upton is a transgender woman ?

In court she said because Dr upton had told staff. She also said she was 6 foot 1, had receding hair, an Adams apple and changed in front of her and that is when she complained.

My solution from earlier in the thread of having a gender neutral toilet in the building apparently was rejected by Dr Upton. She said that would be othering and she wanted to get changed in the female changing room

[jamie_1875]

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The question that I don't think has been answered is, how did nurse Peggie know that Dr Upton is a transgender woman ?

Why do you think the highly paid KC lawyers haven't asked that question? Because it's nothing to do with the case being heard.

It's in the reporting that he only began transitioning a few years ago, is married to a woman and was quite openly a man a few years ago is the most likely answer though as to how she knew him to be a man. I am also guessing the deeper voice and male body parts etc were a big giveaway.

Why do you think female changing rooms exist? For what purpose?

[Bishop Hibee]

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Personally, I don't care what my doctor's religious, political, moral or social views are. They could be the complete antithesis of everything that I think, feel or believe.

All I would be interested in is whether they could do their job and help me.

Neither do I. I worry about being treated by a Doctor pretending to be a woman who thinks sex is ‘guessed at’ at birth rather than observed though.

[lapsedhibee]

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That's not what this particular case is about though. It's about a woman who knew "Beth" was and is a man getting changed next to her and her not feeling comfortable with it, then being suspended when she raised a concern.

The nurse wasn't passing him in the street, she was a woman in the woman's changing room who didn't want to get changed next to a man.

Wasn't it Upton who raised the concern (that she was being bullied by Peggie)?

[jamie_1875]

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Wasn't it Upton who raised the concern (that she was being bullied by Peggie)?

She raised her concerns with her line manager who said it was NHS Fife Policy that if someone identified as a woman they had the right to use woman's spaces. The Dr then raised the offical claim and the nurse then took this to the employment tribunal for unlawful harassment under the equalities act. So yes it was made an official grievance as he felt bullied by the nurse as she didn't like him changing in the woman's changing room.

[lapsedhibee]

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She raised her concerns with her line manager who said it was NHS Fife Policy that if someone identified as a woman they had the right to use woman's spaces. The Dr then raised the offical claim and the nurse then took this to the employment tribunal for unlawful harassment under the equalities act. So yes it was made an official grievance as he felt bullied by the nurse as she didn't like him changing in the woman's changing room.