The rise of the far right in Germany

[Hibrandenburg]

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Complete opposite of UK and Scotland bizarrely. Labour got in from a massive percentage of under 50s. Reform got the vast majority of their votes from the over 50s. This did them OK as in the uk percentage of who votes is much higher the older you get

Greens and Lib dems got double the votes reform got in the under 30s and Labour 7 times more. In 65 and older it was tories out in front and Labour and reform tied for 2nd

Let's not forget that this is only a region of Germany, a region that has only relatively recently thrown off the shackles of consecutive totalitarian regimes covering a period of over 50 years.

[Keith_M]

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Let's not forget that this is only a region of Germany, a region that has only relatively recently thrown off the shackles of consecutive totalitarian regimes covering a period of over 50 years.

That explains a lot about my Missus' iron rule at home. She was obviously well schooled


Ossi Women, what are they like...

[Stairway 2 7]

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Let's not forget that this is only a region of Germany, a region that has only relatively recently thrown off the shackles of consecutive totalitarian regimes covering a period of over 50 years.

It's defence not an example of Germany as a whole they won't do nearly as well in the federal election. SDP always do poor in the two regions and it's regions that ADF expected to do well. No one will work with them in the parliament anyway regardless of how they do in the general elections.

[Stairway 2 7]

Germany considering sending migrants to Rwanda. After last week's stabbings they brought in some new rules like knife being crime a reason for deportation and asylum seekers won't get benefits if they enter Germany from a safe country that they could have got asylum in



https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sk...-idea-13210359

Germany considers sending migrants to Rwanda after UK ditches same idea

Germany's migration minister says he would use the plan to deter people from crossing the EU's eastern borders, which is "about 10,000 a year".

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...story-patterns

Worth a read.


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[Bristolhibby]

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I think older folk tend to still hang on to some of the assumptions around at the time subconsciously. I think as well, older people quite often fear change, which can be understandable, and that includes fear of culture changing, because once you're 80 odd, you're talking about folk who were born before houses had TVs and stuff, and the rate of change has been pretty mental lately. I think this is largely what the right weaponise - but I agree that in these cases, it's not fair to blame the old people, unless you want to paint a very large swathe of a generation with the same brush as you're painting Tommy Robinson or whoever.

Agreed, especially as that was the last generation who actually went to war and spilt blood to defeat German and Italian Fascism and Japanese Militarism.

[Kato]

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https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...story-patterns

Worth a read.


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It is worth a read. The book he's referring to seems to be so too.

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[Pretty Boy]

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Agreed, especially as that was the last generation who actually went to war and spilt blood to defeat German and Italian Fascism and Japanese Militarism.

What war was that? The Falklands?

My Grandad is 91 and was 6 when WWII started and 12 when it finished. The idea the older generation of today are Vera Lynn singing D Day veterans is about 20-25 years out of date. There are a handful of people left who saw the front lines in WWII and that is almost taking literally rather than figuratively.

It seems particularly British thing that there is this reflected glory around a brutal war for a generation who were born well after it ended. It seems almost an overriding part of the British psyche, all the nostalgia propaganda from the far right harks back to a period 10-15 years either side of that war. I suppose it's understandable, the victories in both the great war and WWII were so pyrrhic for the UK in terms of economic and political cost that it's the last time we were of any real consequence on the world stage.

[greenlex]

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What war was that? The Falklands?

My Grandad is 91 and was 6 when WWII started and 12 when it finished. The idea the older generation of today are Vera Lynn singing D Day veterans is about 20-25 years out of date. There are a handful of people left who saw the front lines in WWII and that is almost taking literally rather than figuratively.

It seems particularly British thing that there is this reflected glory around a brutal war for a generation who were born well after it ended. It seems almost an overriding part of the British psyche, all the nostalgia propaganda from the far right harks back to a period 10-15 years either side of that war. I suppose it's understandable, the victories in both the great war and WWII were so pyrrhic for the UK in terms of economic and political cost that it's the last time we were of any real consequence on the world stage.

Agree with most of that PB but my generations parents were front and Centre of the fight against the Nazis. It affected them greatly and in my dad’s case physically. It’s natural for me and my generation to feel an attachment to that so although I personally obviously didn’t see front line action I do feel it’s close to my heart. I hate War and everything associated with it. I’m a Scottish Patriot but very anti flag waving.

[s.a.m]

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What war was that? The Falklands?

My Grandad is 91 and was 6 when WWII started and 12 when it finished. The idea the older generation of today are Vera Lynn singing D Day veterans is about 20-25 years out of date. There are a handful of people left who saw the front lines in WWII and that is almost taking literally rather than figuratively.

It seems particularly British thing that there is this reflected glory around a brutal war for a generation who were born well after it ended. It seems almost an overriding part of the British psyche, all the nostalgia propaganda from the far right harks back to a period 10-15 years either side of that war. I suppose it's understandable, the victories in both the great war and WWII were so pyrrhic for the UK in terms of economic and political cost that it's the last time we were of any real consequence on the world stage.

You're absolutely right that there are few left who fought, and it's an important point: there aren't many left who are entitled to talk about what "we" did. I think, though, that the cultural and social effects went on longer than you suggest. There are a couple of living generations who grew up with the war, either living through it or its cultural aftermath. I'll be 57 in a couple of weeks, and my grandfather fought in both wars, my parents were children who lost relatives during WW2, and I went to primary school at at time when little boys were still fighting the Jerries at playtime and at the weekend (when they weren't cowboys fighting the Indians, which is a whole other thing...), and war films framed around British heroism were regularly on TV. So, although people my age or my parents' age can't claim to have fought, we did to varying degrees grow up with the war, which was only slowly disappearing in the rear-view mirror.

A few years back, I saw Anthony Beevor at the Book Festival talking about his book about Arnhem. He talked about the operation's presence in the public psyche - and the public view of WW2 in general being partly shaped by film. In the case of Arnhem, the film, 'A Bridge Too Far' which (according to him - I haven't seen it since I was a child) portrays the British loss as an unfortunate serious of accidents and 'if onlys', when in fact he believes it should be remembered as a hubristic, catastrophic mess from conception through strategy and execution. The loss emboldened a German military and command who were sinking at the time and, he believes, it delayed the end of the war which meant many more lives were lost than need be, on top of the lives lost or ruined in the actual operation. But perhaps, wrong as this story - and others like it - might be, it's not irrational. Maybe because of the loss of status you talk about, or the need to reframe their losses and trauma in a way that brought comfort and reassurance, or the need for people to remind themselves that there were genuinely heroic deeds which weren't in vain, grown-ups were still revisiting WW2 regularly when I was young, and children at the time were hearing and exploring those stories.

I have older relatives who still remember - and follow! - war-effort guidance, and hark back to the propaganda posters. So, basically, I agree with you - but I think you might be underestimating the reach of the impact of the war, time-wise. There are still a lot of people who have vicarious experience of WW2 , or a fictionalised narrative of it - not that that's any excuse, but it hasn't come from nowhere. Young thugs and racists claiming some kind of superiority because of the war is stupid and offensive. And they need telt.

[Pretty Boy]

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You're absolutely right that there are few left who fought, and it's an important point: there aren't many left who are entitled to talk about what "we" did. I think, though, that the cultural and social effects went on longer than you suggest. There are a couple of living generations who grew up with the war, either living through it or its cultural aftermath. I'll be 57 in a couple of weeks, and my grandfather fought in both wars, my parents were children who lost relatives during WW2, and I went to primary school at at time when little boys were still fighting the Jerries at playtime and at the weekend (when they weren't cowboys fighting the Indians, which is a whole other thing...), and war films framed around British heroism were regularly on TV. So, although people my age or my parents' age can't claim to have fought, we did to varying degrees grow up with the war, which was only slowly disappearing in the rear-view mirror.

A few years back, I saw Anthony Beevor at the Book Festival talking about his book about Arnhem. He talked about the operation's presence in the public psyche - and the public view of WW2 in general being partly shaped by film. In the case of Arnhem, the film, 'A Bridge Too Far' which (according to him - I haven't seen it since I was a child) portrays the British loss as an unfortunate serious of accidents and 'if onlys', when in fact he believes it should be remembered as a hubristic, catastrophic mess from conception through strategy and execution. The loss emboldened a German military and command who were sinking at the time and, he believes, it delayed the end of the war which meant many more lives were lost than need be, on top of the lives lost or ruined in the actual operation. But perhaps, wrong as this story - and others like it - might be, it's not irrational. Maybe because of the loss of status you talk about, or the need to reframe their losses and trauma in a way that brought comfort and reassurance, or the need for people to remind themselves that there were genuinely heroic deeds which weren't in vain, grown-ups were still revisiting WW2 regularly when I was young, and children at the time were hearing and exploring those stories.

I have older relatives who still remember - and follow! - war-effort guidance, and hark back to the propaganda posters. So, basically, I agree with you - but I think you might be underestimating the reach of the impact of the war, time-wise. There are still a lot of people who have vicarious experience of WW2 , or a fictionalised narrative of it - not that that's any excuse, but it hasn't come from nowhere. Young thugs and racists claiming some kind of superiority because of the war is stupid and offensive. And they need telt.

I agree with you and I did acknowledge that the war dominated and indeed for many continues to dominate the British national psyche. If anything I would argue the horror seems to be being slowly forgotten and replaced with a dangerous romanticism but that is another debate altogether. I absolutely take on board the points made by you and Greenlex above.

My point was more in relation to the idea that we should avoid generalisations against a generation who 'spilled blood' against fascism. It's just no longer really the case and shame on those from younger generations spanning 20s to 80s who heard heard and perhaps saw the impact of that battle for Europe on their own parents and grandparents and are still drawn to Reform and their ilk.

I have said on the other thread about fascism that I can understand why some of the poorest in our society are conned by the hateful rhetoric. Many of the ringleaders seem to be the same types who want what I described as the reflected glory of the effort of actual heroes whilst being born 10, 20 or 30 years after the conflict ended.

[Hibrandenburg]

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You're absolutely right that there are few left who fought, and it's an important point: there aren't many left who are entitled to talk about what "we" did. I think, though, that the cultural and social effects went on longer than you suggest. There are a couple of living generations who grew up with the war, either living through it or its cultural aftermath. I'll be 57 in a couple of weeks, and my grandfather fought in both wars, my parents were children who lost relatives during WW2, and I went to primary school at at time when little boys were still fighting the Jerries at playtime and at the weekend (when they weren't cowboys fighting the Indians, which is a whole other thing...), and war films framed around British heroism were regularly on TV. So, although people my age or my parents' age can't claim to have fought, we did to varying degrees grow up with the war, which was only slowly disappearing in the rear-view mirror.

A few years back, I saw Anthony Beevor at the Book Festival talking about his book about Arnhem. He talked about the operation's presence in the public psyche - and the public view of WW2 in general being partly shaped by film. In the case of Arnhem, the film, 'A Bridge Too Far' which (according to him - I haven't seen it since I was a child) portrays the British loss as an unfortunate serious of accidents and 'if onlys', when in fact he believes it should be remembered as a hubristic, catastrophic mess from conception through strategy and execution. The loss emboldened a German military and command who were sinking at the time and, he believes, it delayed the end of the war which meant many more lives were lost than need be, on top of the lives lost or ruined in the actual operation. But perhaps, wrong as this story - and others like it - might be, it's not irrational. Maybe because of the loss of status you talk about, or the need to reframe their losses and trauma in a way that brought comfort and reassurance, or the need for people to remind themselves that there were genuinely heroic deeds which weren't in vain, grown-ups were still revisiting WW2 regularly when I was young, and children at the time were hearing and exploring those stories.

I have older relatives who still remember - and follow! - war-effort hark back to the propaganda posters. So, basically, I agree with you - but I think you might be underestimating the reach of the impact of the war, time-wise. There are still a lot of people who have vicarious experience of WW2 , or a fictionalised narrative of it - not that that's any excuse, but it hasn't come from nowhere. Young thugs and racists claiming some kind of superiority because of the war is stupid and offensive. And they need telt.

I've no problem in understanding why survivors of WW2 and even their offspring born after, had an unhealthy mistrust against the Germans. I'm hitting 60 next year and grew up under the generations that fought in and were born into the immediate aftermath of WW2 and some of them even WW1. Politics and education was still geared up to see the Germans as our natural enemy and to an extent still is.

But the problem with fascism that we are seeing in the UK today isn't after quakes of WW2, it's a deep rooted sense that being British makes you somehow superior to Johnny Foreigner. Unlike the Germans, Britain is still convinced that it was its God given right to invade and occupy large swathes of the world and impose our rule over them. Rather than admit we committed horrible atrocities in our pursuit of power, we still sell the fairytale of what we gave to the world. It's then no wonder that the UK is fertile ground for fascism to flourish, even if up until now it has been mainly passive. It's not only WW2 and the Blitz Spirit that these odious cretins call upon to express their imaginary superiority, but WW1, Waterloo, Trafalgar, Agincourt and the grand old British Empire is proof that Johnny Foreigner is inferior. History will always be written by the victors, but until we really address our past in a truthful manner, then racism amongst the poorly educated will always be a problem here.

[Ozyhibby]

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I've no problem in understanding why survivors of WW2 and even their offspring born after, had an unhealthy mistrust against the Germans. I'm hitting 60 next year and grew up under the generations that fought in and were born into the immediate aftermath of WW2 and some of them even WW1. Politics and education was still geared up to see the Germans as our natural enemy and to an extent still is.

But the problem with fascism that we are seeing in the UK today isn't after quakes of WW2, it's a deep rooted sense that being British makes you somehow superior to Johnny Foreigner. Unlike the Germans, Britain is still convinced that it was its God given right to invade and occupy large swathes of the world and impose our rule over them. Rather than admit we committed horrible atrocities in our pursuit of power, we still sell the fairytale of what we gave to the world. It's then no wonder that the UK is fertile ground for fascism to flourish, even if up until now it has been mainly passive. It's not only WW2 and the Blitz Spirit that these odious cretins call upon to express their imaginary superiority, but WW1, Waterloo, Trafalgar, Agincourt and the grand old British Empire is proof that Johnny Foreigner is inferior. History will always be written by the victors, but until we really address our past in a truthful manner, then racism amongst the poorly educated will always be a problem here.

I think your attributing too much thinking to these people.
It’s just flat out racism. Their life is crap or they feel it is and they want someone to blame.


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[Stairway 2 7]

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I think your attributing too much thinking to these people.
It’s just flat out racism. Their life is crap or they feel it is and they want someone to blame.


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Yeah racists sentiment and anti immigration opinions were falling in the uk polling shows for the last 15 years. Recession and poverty breeds anger. **** like Farage and Sunak use immigration to deflect the anger. The best way to defeat this is a booming economy and better living conditions. I'm not optimistic the economy will boom in anyway though.

[Keith_M]

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I think your attributing too much thinking to these people.
It’s just flat out racism. Their life is crap or they feel it is and they want someone to blame.

That's the thing, from my experience of those living in the southern half* of Eastern Germany (Sachsen, Thuringen and Sachsen-Anhalt), they generally have a standard of living that the poorer parts of the UK could only dream of.

I'm not claiming thee aren't genuine problems as unemployment, for instance, is higher than in Western 'Länder' (states), whereas wages are often lower.

It's just that for many (at least the ones I know), it mostly seems to be their perceptions, as opposed to the reality.



* I'm not as familiar with the northern areas, Brandenburg, Berlin and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, so couldn't comment on that.

[jamie_1875]

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I've no problem in understanding why survivors of WW2 and even their offspring born after, had an unhealthy mistrust against the Germans. I'm hitting 60 next year and grew up under the generations that fought in and were born into the immediate aftermath of WW2 and some of them even WW1. Politics and education was still geared up to see the Germans as our natural enemy and to an extent still is.

But the problem with fascism that we are seeing in the UK today isn't after quakes of WW2, it's a deep rooted sense that being British makes you somehow superior to Johnny Foreigner. Unlike the Germans, Britain is still convinced that it was its God given right to invade and occupy large swathes of the world and impose our rule over them. Rather than admit we committed horrible atrocities in our pursuit of power, we still sell the fairytale of what we gave to the world. It's then no wonder that the UK is fertile ground for fascism to flourish, even if up until now it has been mainly passive. It's not only WW2 and the Blitz Spirit that these odious cretins call upon to express their imaginary superiority, but WW1, Waterloo, Trafalgar, Agincourt and the grand old British Empire is proof that Johnny Foreigner is inferior. History will always be written by the victors, but until we really address our past in a truthful manner, then racism amongst the poorly educated will always be a problem here.

How do the various surveys that show the UK is one of the least racist countries and most tolerant in Europe match up with what you are saying?

One example here:

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/uk-public-among-most-trusting-of-their-neighbours-internationally-and-increasingly-comfortable-living-next-to-historically-marginalised-groups

[Colr]

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How do the various surveys that show the UK is one of the least racist countries and most tolerant in Europe match up with what you are saying?

One example here:

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/uk-public-among-most-trusting-of-their-neighbours-internationally-and-increasingly-comfortable-living-next-to-historically-marginalised-groups

My neighbour is German and she ably demonstrates how the German nation was captivated by Nazism.

[Ozyhibby]

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How do the various surveys that show the UK is one of the least racist countries and most tolerant in Europe match up with what you are saying?

One example here:

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/uk-public...nalised-groups

It is. These people are a tiny minority who are making a lot of noise. They were massively outnumbered in Glasgow yesterday.


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[marinello59]

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It is. These people are a tiny minority who are making a lot of noise. They were massively outnumbered in Glasgow yesterday.


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They have been massively outnumbered all over the UK. Truth is most of us muddle along pretty well most of the time. Some people are desperate to see the UK has having a problem whilst dismissing or minimising what is happening in other countries.

[Kato]

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They have been massively outnumbered all over the UK. Truth is most of us muddle along pretty well most of the time. Some people are desperate to see the UK has having a problem whilst dismissing or minimising what is happening in other countries.

There is no doubt racists are in a minority, but they are loud.

The volume over the last 15-20 years has been amplified by social media and pushed even louder by Putins cash and bots.

The news in the US about the company, Tenet, financed by Putin, paying for right-wing commentators to amplify division makes me wonder why there hasn't been more said in the UK.

Ex British RT employees should be getting dragged over the coals for a start.

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[Hibrandenburg]

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I think your attributing too much thinking to these people.
It’s just flat out racism. Their life is crap or they feel it is and they want someone to blame.


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Someone to blame and someone to feel superior to.

[Hibrandenburg]

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Yeah racists sentiment and anti immigration opinions were falling in the uk polling shows for the last 15 years. Recession and poverty breeds anger. **** like Farage and Sunak use immigration to deflect the anger. The best way to defeat this is a booming economy and better living conditions. I'm not optimistic the economy will boom in anyway though.

Then isn't it strange that many voted to stop free movement and then overwhelmingly voted for a party that overtly played the "immigration is bad" card.

[Hibrandenburg]

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That's the thing, from my experience of those living in the southern half* of Eastern Germany (Sachsen, Thuringen and Sachsen-Anhalt), they generally have a standard of living that the poorer parts of the UK could only dream of.

I'm not claiming thee aren't genuine problems as unemployment, for instance, is higher than in Western 'Länder' (states), whereas wages are often lower.

It's just that for many (at least the ones I know), it mostly seems to be their perceptions, as opposed to the reality.



* I'm not as familiar with the northern areas, Brandenburg, Berlin and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, so couldn't comment on that.

Meck-Pomm and Brandenburg are similar to the south east, Berlin which has a high degree of immigration is much more open to other cultures.

The problem is racism based on xenophobia, the fear of that what you don't know.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Then isn't it strange that many voted to stop free movement and then overwhelmingly voted for a party that overtly played the "immigration is bad" card.

The difference is the poll that Jamie shared above and the massive European social study that show uk has a more positive opinion on immigrants that most other nations, is they ask the whole public.

Unfortunately in the uk older groups massively outvote younger groups. The tories and reform got their seats from the over 55s, reform especially the over 65s. The polls above ask everybody.

I can see why uk is getting less bigoted as the older groups die off. Over 60s were brought up in a very white British nation 99.8% in 1951, it's now 76% white British and only 60% of under 4 year old. Most UK kids will have people of different colour in their class. Hopefully being brought up with other groups will help them realise how stupid racism is. Looking at the votes of the under 30s in the last election I'm positive in the future, the kids are alright.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/03/most-british-people-hold-positive-view-of-immigration-survey-reveals

[Hibrandenburg]

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They have been massively outnumbered all over the UK. Truth is most of us muddle along pretty well most of the time. Some people are desperate to see the UK has having a problem whilst dismissing or minimising what is happening in other countries.

Strange, I felt it was exactly the other way round. If you read the British press then you'd be forgiven for thinking that Germany was on the cusp of welcoming in the 4th Reich.

[Hibrandenburg]

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The difference is the poll that Jamie shared above and the massive European social study that show uk has a more positive opinion on immigrants that most other nations, is they ask the whole public.

Unfortunately in the uk older groups massively outvote younger groups. The tories and reform got their seats from the over 55s, reform especially the over 65s. The polls above ask everybody.

I can see why uk is getting less bigoted as the older groups die off. Over 60s were brought up in a very white British nation 99.8% in 1951, it's now 76% white British and only 60% of under 4 year old. Most UK kids will have people of different colour in their class. Hopefully being brought up with other groups will help them realise how stupid racism is. Looking at the votes of the under 30s in the last election I'm positive in the future, the kids are alright.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/03/most-british-people-hold-positive-view-of-immigration-survey-reveals

I do appreciate that the vast majority of UK citizens are not racist. However I take such surveys with a huge pinch of salt, the election box is a much better gauge.

[JimBHibees]

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I do appreciate that the vast majority of UK citizens are not racist. However I take such surveys with a huge pinch of salt, the election box is a much better gauge.

Definitely a much better gauge. What was that saying about shy tories?

[Stairway 2 7]

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I do appreciate that the vast majority of UK citizens are not racist. However I take such surveys with a huge pinch of salt, the election box is a much better gauge.

The election is a good example of the people who vote, usually 60 odd %. Poorer people, younger people and people from ethnic backgrounds vote much less. All these groups are generally much more left wing. 40% of EU migrants and 25% of African migrants aren't registered to vote and usually only 50% of under 25s vote.

I don't know how we get these groups to vote but the UK would be a better place if they did as Reform and the Tories didn't pitifully in these groups.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Definitely a much better gauge. What was that saying about shy tories?

It's a good gauge for middle class old people. There's a 30% gap in the richest and poorest voters turn out, a 30% gap between the youngest and oldest and a large gap between ethnicities. I don't think you can say it shows what Britain thinks when it doesn't show well what minorities think.

I read white British is estimated to be under 50% of the population by 2060 so hopefully the fash will control less of the voters in future

[Keith_M]

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Meck-Pomm and Brandenburg are similar to the south east, Berlin which has a high degree of immigration is much more open to other cultures.

The problem is racism based on xenophobia, the fear of that what you don't know.

Cheers. Doesn't surprise me, TBH