The Trans Rights Debate

[147lothian]

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IMO the trans rights debate should never have been a party political one. By doing so, it has polarised and radicalised what should have been an incremental societal shift and human-rights based progression, similar to the LGB experience.

Time will tell of course, but the party political aspect has definitely undermined political support for some parties, and has perhaps set the moderate progression of trans rights back quite a bit.

https://cass.independent-review.uk/w...Accessible.pdf

The most common reaction from cheerleaders of trans ideology has been to meekly plead ignorance. Dr Hillary Cass's report into the NHS's treatment of gender-confused kids has radically transformed the trans debate, exposing 'gender-affirming care' as a dangerous experiment. Now, the disciples of trans ideology are scrambling to save face.

The fact is, it is incredibly difficult for trans activists to obscure their roles in this scandal. Cass's report reveals what was really going on inside the NHS's Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS). She concludes that the 'gender affirming ' medical treatments it provided, like puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones, are based on 'wholly inadequate' evidence.

Doctors are usually cautious when adopting new treatments, but Cass says 'quite the reverse happened in the field of gender care for children'. Instead, thousands of children were put on an unproven medical pathway. Worse still, medical professionals seemed largely uninterested in uncovering the side effects and long-term risks of these drugs.

It truly is a scandal that children and youngsters were put on a pathway to medicalisation and then promptly abandoned.

[CropleyWasGod]

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cass.independent-review.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/CassReview_Final.pdf

The most common reaction from cheerleaders of trans ideology has been to meekly plead ignorance. Dr Hillary Cass's report into the NHS's treatment of gender-confused kids has radically transformed the trans debate, exposing 'gender-affirming care' as a dangerous experiment. Now, the disciples of trans ideology are scrambling to save face.

The fact is, it is incredibly difficult for trans activists to obscure their roles in this scandal. Cass's report reveals what was really going on inside the NHS's Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS). She concludes that the 'gender affirming ' medical treatments it provided, like puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones, are based on 'wholly inadequate' evidence.

Doctors are usually cautious when adopting new treatments, but Cass says 'quite the reverse happened in the field of gender care for children'. Instead, thousands of children were put on an unproven medical pathway. Worse still, medical professionals seemed largely uninterested in uncovering the side effects and long-term risks of these drugs.

It truly is a scandal that children and youngsters were put on a pathway to medicalisation and then promptly abandoned.

Not sure how this addresses my point.

[Keith_M]

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IMO the trans rights debate should never have been a party political one. By doing so, it has polarised and radicalised what should have been an incremental societal shift and human-rights based progression, similar to the LGB experience.

Time will tell of course, but the party political aspect has definitely undermined political support for some parties, and has perhaps set the moderate progression of trans rights back quite a bit.

[500miles]

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IMO the trans rights debate should never have been a party political one. By doing so, it has polarised and radicalised what should have been an incremental societal shift and human-rights based progression, similar to the LGB experience.

Time will tell of course, but the party political aspect has definitely undermined political support for some parties, and has perhaps set the moderate progression of trans rights back quite a bit.

The debate will be polarised until there's agreement on both sides regarding the material reality of sex and gender. There is no shared reality viewed from different points of view, there are two contrary realities. In one reality sex is measurable and definable, in the other these measures and definitions are discarded for personal experience and belief.

This issue of shared reality pervades politics and society on a wider scale, from MAGA alternative facts, to religious extremism. With each of these sections of society building their own online bubbles where those realities are nurtured , I see little hope for reconciliation.

[CropleyWasGod]

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The debate will be polarised until there's agreement on both sides regarding the material reality of sex and gender. There is no shared reality viewed from different points of view, there are two contrary realities. In one reality sex is measurable and definable, in the other these measures and definitions are discarded for personal experience and belief.

This issue of shared reality pervades politics and society on a wider scale, from MAGA alternative facts, to religious extremism. With each of these sections of society building their own online bubbles where those realities are nurtured , I see little hope for reconciliation.

All very true as society stands today.

But, as many have pointed out, there are so many parallels with the LGB movement. A generation or so ago, that debate was also polarised. The idea of same-sex marriage was so far off the radar then as to be unthinkable, even within the gay community. Gay men were often demonised as potential child abusers; parents had misgivings about their kids being taught by gay men and women. Nowadays, our kids ask "why was there even a debate?".

The progress that has been made on LGB rights has partly come about by campaigning and what some would call extremism. But the biggest factor has been through society becoming more comfortable and tolerant of "difference". People have gay friends, kids, colleagues, which has largely taken the sting out of the previous debate. It's only relatively recently that politicians have become involved to reinforce, through legislation, what society had already accepted.

What you describe as the "online bubbles" is true, of course. There seems to be no place online for nuance and compromise. But that isn't everyone's reality. As general society becomes more exposed to, and comfortable, with trans friends, family, colleagues etc. , that's where the toxicity will fade away, just as it did with LGB rights. There will always be extremists, of course, but they will be the exception.

[500miles]

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All very true as society stands today.

But, as many have pointed out, there are so many parallels with the LGB movement. A generation or so ago, that debate was also polarised. The idea of same-sex marriage was so far off the radar then as to be unthinkable, even within the gay community. Gay men were often demonised as potential child abusers; parents had misgivings about their kids being taught by gay men and women. Nowadays, our kids ask "why was there even a debate?".

The progress that has been made on LGB rights has partly come about by campaigning and what some would call extremism. But the biggest factor has been through society becoming more comfortable and tolerant of "difference". People have gay friends, kids, colleagues, which has largely taken the sting out of the previous debate. It's only relatively recently that politicians have become involved to reinforce, through legislation, what society had already accepted.

What you describe as the "online bubbles" is true, of course. There seems to be no place online for nuance and compromise. But that isn't everyone's reality. As general society becomes more exposed to, and comfortable, with trans friends, family, colleagues etc. , that's where the toxicity will fade away, just as it did with LGB rights. There will always be extremists, of course, but they will be the exception.

I'm not convinced it's the same. You can demonstrate Sexuality by behaviour. You can't really demonstrate gender. You can demonstrate sex by metric and definition.

As long as people are compelled to speak and behave according to a philosophy they don't believe in, you'll get strong pushback - and not just from one political or social section. It's really difficult to form a shared reality under those circumstances.

The compromise would have to be gender, like religion, is a protected characteristic, and sex is a separately protected characteristic. What you have to keep in mind however is that religion doesn't have the same degree of protection as others. I can go around saying how stupid religious people are with very little fear. I can't do that with other protected characteristics.

[Bristolhibby]

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I'm not convinced it's the same. You can demonstrate Sexuality by behaviour. You can't really demonstrate gender. You can demonstrate sex by metric and definition.

As long as people are compelled to speak and behave according to a philosophy they don't believe in, you'll get strong pushback - and not just from one political or social section. It's really difficult to form a shared reality under those circumstances.

The compromise would have to be gender, like religion, is a protected characteristic, and sex is a separately protected characteristic. What you have to keep in mind however is that religion doesn't have the same degree of protection as others. I can go around saying how stupid religious people are with very little fear. I can't do that with other protected characteristics.

My sister in law works in the urology department of Great Ormond Street. She is in a fairly niche area and has treated kids born with one testicle and an internal urethra. Kids born with both testicles and ovaries. All sorts of complications.

The term intersex is well established. There isn’t necessarily a binary option. Often a decision is made about these children’s gender that turns out to be completely opposite to what they actually were. Sadly the suicide rate when they grow up is higher than the normal rate.

Look at Caster Semenya and her case.

“Semenya has said that she was born with a vagina and internal undescended testes; she has no uterus or fallopian tubes and does not menstruate. Her internal testes produce natural testosterone levels in the typical male range Semenya has rejected the label of "intersex", calling herself "a different kind of woman."

So if someone can physically be different, it’s not a massive leap of faith and science to say your brain can simply be in the wrong body, without having any outward signs of say having a testicle and a vagina, or the wrong chromosome makeup.

Just some food for thought.

J

[500miles]

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My sister in law works in the urology department of Great Ormond Street. She is in a fairly niche area and has treated kids born with one testicle and an internal urethra. Kids born with both testicles and ovaries. All sorts of complications.

The term intersex is well established. There isn’t necessarily a binary option. Often a decision is made about these children’s gender that turns out to be completely opposite to what they actually were. Sadly the suicide rate when they grow up is higher than the normal rate.

Look at Caster Semenya and her case.

“Semenya has said that she was born with a vagina and internal undescended testes; she has no uterus or fallopian tubes and does not menstruate. Her internal testes produce natural testosterone levels in the typical male range Semenya has rejected the label of "intersex", calling herself "a different kind of woman."

So if someone can physically be different, it’s not a massive leap of faith and science to say your brain can simply be in the wrong body, without having any outward signs of say having a testicle and a vagina, or the wrong chromosome makeup.

Just some food for thought.

J

My wife and I done IVF and as part of some private scans we had done, we were given a decent run through of intersex conditions as something that can be picked up. Intersex people can still be assessed (overwhelmingly, quite easily) as male or female based on gamate production. While I didn't memorise all the rarer forms of intersex conditions, I didn't come across one that existed outwith the binary. Sexual development can be complicated, it's results are still binary.

It's also something of a strawman in general, as we aren't talking about people who have measurable and definable conditions, we're talking about an idea of gender that people feel.

Semenya is an interesting case. Given the heavy rumours she was the sperms donor for her own children, a potential scandal.

[lapsedhibee]

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My wife and I done IVF and as part of some private scans we had done, we were given a decent run through of intersex conditions as something that can be picked up. Intersex people can still be assessed (overwhelmingly, quite easily) as male or female based on gamate production. While I didn't memorise all the rarer forms of intersex conditions, I didn't come across one that existed outwith the binary. Sexual development can be complicated, it's results are still binary.

It's also something of a strawman in general, as we aren't talking about people who have measurable and definable conditions, we're talking about an idea of gender that people feel.

Semenya is an interesting case. Given the heavy rumours she was the sperms donor for her own children, a potential scandal.

Sorry, struggling a bit with this post. Are you saying there's only two sexes, male and female, and if you are, which of the two is Semenya?

[500miles]

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Sorry, struggling a bit with this post. Are you saying there's only two sexes, male and female, and if you are, which of the two is Semenya?

Aye. That's not just based on my ivf experience I just brought that up because that was my first introduction to the concept, that's Dawkins position, etc.

Semenya has had children with her wife. The allegations are that she is actually an intersex male, and as such provided the sperm for the ivf, rather than a donor. Quite an unkind rumour to raise out of nowhere, but I think worth raising when Semenya is used as evidence as someone existing outside the binary.

[Stairway 2 7]

The greens have expelled 14 members who signed a form saying they believe sex is a biological reality. Surely the is a faith based opinion for the greens. Surely you should be allowed to have an opinion that isn't that controversial.

Regardless the amount of energy time and finance the greens spend on non green issues is baffling. Hopefully someone starts a green party where our dying planet is the priority, it doesn't matter if we are gay straight or trans it's probably the most important issue facing us all

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,s...-trans-members

[marinello59]

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The greens have expelled 14 members who signed a form saying they believe sex is a biological reality. Surely the is a faith based opinion for the greens. Surely you should be allowed to have an opinion that isn't that controversial.

Regardless the amount of energy time and finance the greens spend on non green issues is baffling. Hopefully someone starts a green party where our dying planet is the priority, it doesn't matter if we are gay straight or trans it's probably the most important issue facing us all

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,s...-trans-members

Hopefully those who have been expelled start a breakaway Green Party worthy of the name.

[AgentDaleCooper]

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Hopefully those who have been expelled start a breakaway Green Party worthy of the name.

Andy Wightman should be leading the party IMO

[Bishop Hibee]

Trump gets his biggest cheer at his inauguration when he says there are only two genders, male and female.

[Colr]

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Trump gets his biggest cheer at his inauguration when he says there are only two genders, male and female.

The hermaphrodite vote is very small!

[Moulin Yarns]

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The hermaphrodite vote is very small!

The lgbtq population of the USA is 7.9%. Not an insignificant number of voters.

[Ozyhibby]

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The lgbtq population of the USA is 7.9%. Not an insignificant number of voters.

On the trans issue that’s not a unified voting block. I would advise any political party anywhere to stay well clear of the issue full stop.


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[superfurryhibby]

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The lgbtq population of the USA is 7.9%. Not an insignificant number of voters.

The trans identifying group probably amounts to around a fraction of a %. There is no way there is any unanimity amongst lesbian, gay, bisexual people on the militant misguided trans agenda. There isn't even agreement amongst those who identify as trans (based on conversation with family member who has undergone surgical procedure).

[Paulie Walnuts]

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The trans identifying group probably amounts to around a fraction of a %. There is no way there is any unanimity amongst lesbian, gay, bisexual people on the militant misguided trans agenda. There isn't even agreement amongst those who identify as trans (based on conversation with family member who has undergone surgical procedure).

Sure I read it’s about 0.2%.

[Bristolhibby]

How about we take a leaf out of Bill and Teds Excellent Adventure.

Where we just need to “Be Excellent to each other”.

Simple. If someone identifies as a woman but was born male. Sure.

If someone is a woman and born a woman, fine too.

Be Excellent to each other. Everyone has their race to run in life, and it’s their race.

J

[Smartie]

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How about we take a leaf out of Bill and Teds Excellent Adventure.

Where we just need to “Be Excellent to each other”.

Simple. If someone identifies as a woman but was born male. Sure.

If someone is a woman and born a woman, fine too.

Be Excellent to each other. Everyone has their race to run in life, and it’s their race.

J

I definitely wouldn’t disagree with the sentiment here but it’s easy to be simplistic on the outside of it looking in and it’s hard to find a comfortable, reasonable middle ground where you can be excellent to everyone. When the flashpoints come round you have to pick a side and an opinion. For example - should a woman using a changing room for women be forced to be excellent to someone she considers to be a man, even though that man identifies as a woman and wants to use the same changing room as her? Should a female sportsperson be excellent to someone who went through puberty as a man then wiped the floor with her in a sporting competition?

My opinion goes back and forward on this and I wish it were black and white, where good guys could be excellent to each other and bad guys be intolerant dicks.

It’s a great way to live your life btw and to be applauded.

[Bristolhibby]

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I definitely wouldn’t disagree with the sentiment here but it’s easy to be simplistic on the outside of it looking in and it’s hard to find a comfortable, reasonable middle ground where you can be excellent to everyone. When the flashpoints come round you have to pick a side and an opinion. For example - should a woman using a changing room for women be forced to be excellent to someone she considers to be a man, even though that man identifies as a woman and wants to use the same changing room as her? Should a female sportsperson be excellent to someone who went through puberty as a man then wiped the floor with her in a sporting competition?

My opinion goes back and forward on this and I wish it were black and white, where good guys could be excellent to each other and bad guys be intolerant dicks.

It’s a great way to live your life btw and to be applauded.

Have any women with penises been in woman changing rooms with their wang out.

It’s an often used trope, but not one that my wife, her friends or any of the hundreds of school girls that she teaches have come across.

J

[Paulie Walnuts]

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Have any women with penises been in woman changing rooms with their wang out.

It’s an often used trope, but not one that my wife, her friends or any of the hundreds of school girls that she teaches have come across.

J

Funnily enough I had a similar conversation this morning with a colleague. Apparently we need someone like Trump because they’re teaching our kids in schools to be trans.

When I asked what schools are doing that as none of the teachers I know teach that there’s obviously no coherent answer comes back.

Comes back to what some of us were discussing on another thread. You don’t need to have facts to back up your opinion. You just need a made up story that suits the narrative. If that story is false, who cares, it still backs you up.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Funnily enough I had a similar conversation this morning with a colleague. Apparently we need someone like Trump because they’re teaching our kids in schools to be trans.

When I asked what schools are doing that as none of the teachers I know teach that there’s obviously no coherent answer comes back.

Comes back to what some of us were discussing on another thread. You don’t need to have facts to back up your opinion. You just need a made up story that suits the narrative. If that story is false, who cares, it still backs you up.

There's echoes of the Section 28 debate here. Back then, "they're teaching our kids to be gay" was an oft-heard expression. Nuts, of course.

What kids were being taught, and presumably continue to be taught, is how to be respectful of "difference". No problem in that.

As an aside, this latest attempt by Trump to further marginalise the Trans community has got f all to do with his desire to support and protect women's rights, no matter what his fans might say. Were that the case, he wouldn't be looking to extend the anti-abortion legislation.

[jamie_1875]

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Have any women with penises been in woman changing rooms with their wang out.

It’s an often used trope, but not one that my wife, her friends or any of the hundreds of school girls that she teaches have come across.

J

Yes, and worse. Remember when some politicians claimed nobody would pretend to be a woman to take advantage of women and girls?

"Andrew Miller, who abducted a primary school pupil while dressed as a woman before sexually assaulting the girl repeatedly over more than 24 hours, has been jailed for 20 years"

https://news.sky.com/story/andrew-miller-jailed-for-20-years-for-abducting-and-sexually-assaulting-girl-in-scottish-borders-12983829

"He added that Miller being dressed as a woman was an aggravating factor as he doubted that the girl would have gotten into the car if Miller had presented as a man"

This was in the Scottish Borders a few years ago.

[Paulie Walnuts]

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There's echoes of the Section 28 debate here. Back then, "they're teaching our kids to be gay" was an oft-heard expression. Nuts, of course.

What kids were being taught, and presumably continue to be taught, is how to be respectful of "difference". No problem in that.

Yup. And on top of that, I still remember being taught about transsexuals at school in sex education. It’s not a new ‘woke’ thing that’s been introduced and my colleague would have been taught the same as they’re a couple years younger than me. It’s been ‘taught’ for decades. They may well be discussing it using more modern terminology, but the teachings will almost certainly be much the same as what my generation learned.

Their concern is likely the nonsensical idea that kids will decide to become trans off the back of these teachings, much like your example where people were concerned kids were going to be taught to be gay. I remember as part of sex education we had a man who was HIV+ come in to give us a talk on HIV. It didn’t make me want to be HIV+, much like sex education didn’t make me want to be gay or trans.

Of course being ‘taught’ to be gay or trans is absolutely not how it works, but you’re never going to get through to these people.

[superfurryhibby]

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Yup. And on top of that, I still remember being taught about transsexuals at school in sex education. It’s not a new ‘woke’ thing that’s been introduced and my colleague would have been taught the same as they’re a couple years younger than me. It’s been ‘taught’ for decades. They may well be discussing it using more modern terminology, but the teachings will almost certainly be much the same as what my generation learned.

Their concern is likely the nonsensical idea that kids will decide to become trans off the back of these teachings, much like your example where people were concerned kids were going to be taught to be gay. I remember as part of sex education we had a man who was HIV+ come in to give us a talk on HIV. It didn’t make me want to be HIV+, much like sex education didn’t make me want to be gay or trans.

Of course being ‘taught’ to be gay or trans is absolutely not how it works, but you’re never going to get through to these people.

Excellent memory. I was part of that team all those years ago. We started out with a remit around HIV, safe sex and STI's, but it grew into a much wider discussion. The guy who had HIV was a brave man, putting his head above the parapet.

There was some opposition to the work of the sexual health team in the mid 1990's, including the crap about promoting homosexuality. As if I, a straight man, knew how to do that or would have had any interest in doing so. We did promote the idea that families could be made up of many diverse elements and that how people expressed themselves through sexuality and identity was a matter of individual choice and that diversity and choices should be respected

I was always touched by the feed back forms we got afterwards. Demographics were a factor, young people in certain schools were much more likely to have had families affected by HIV and would often thank us for speaking up, reducing stigma and helping to educate the ill-informed.

[Kato]

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Yes, and worse. Remember when some politicians claimed nobody would pretend to be a woman to take advantage of women and girls?

"Andrew Miller, who abducted a primary school pupil while dressed as a woman before sexually assaulting the girl repeatedly over more than 24 hours, has been jailed for 20 years"

https://news.sky.com/story/andrew-mi...rders-12983829

"He added that Miller being dressed as a woman was an aggravating factor as he doubted that the girl would have gotten into the car if Miller had presented as a man"

This was in the Scottish Borders a few years ago.

Men, eh.

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[Keith_M]

I realise it's not popular with many, but my personal opinion is that... aside from a minute number of people born with mixed/confusing genitalia... there are only two sexes, and it's fairly simple to distinguish between the two.

However, I know people that self identify differently to their physical gender and my personal view is to live and let live. If that's what makes them happy then fair enough.

[Hibrandenburg]

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I realise it's not popular with many, but my personal opinion is that... aside from a minute number of people born with mixed/confusing genitalia... there are only two sexes, and it's fairly simple to distinguish between the two.

However, I know people that self identify differently to their physical gender and my personal view is to live and let live. If that's what makes them happy then fair enough.

I take it you were never in Berghain whilst in Berlin.