Scottish Independence

[marinello59]

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I agree that it’s. Pre likely that independence voters will just not vote. Some though will return to vote labour as it’s a realistic route to getting rid of the tories.

Of course some SNP supporters will vote for Labour just to get the Tories out. Those Labour voters who have lent their vote to the SNP in order to get Indy, and there are plenty, will be much more likely to just vote Labour this time around. When the reward is getting rid of the Tories now rather than the promise of Indy some time in the future then it’s an easier one to make. I expect to see the SNP put much more in to their attacks on Labour than attacking the Tories as they seem them as a bigger threat to them achieving their ultimate aim. The problem with that is that very few outside of already committed SNP supporters are going to buy any claims that Labour are almost identical to the Tories. It’s going to be interesting though.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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The assumption that no one who voted SNP will vote Labour is, at best complacent and very entitled. That attitude did for Labour in Scotland.

Ok then. Some people who voted Labour last time will vote for the SNP. So I guess it will balance itself out then.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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Of course some SNP supporters will vote for Labour just to get the Tories out. Those Labour voters who have lent their vote to the SNP in order to get Indy, and there are plenty, will be much more likely to just vote Labour this time around. When the reward is getting rid of the Tories now rather than the promise of Indy some time in the future then it’s an easier one to make. I expect to see the SNP put much more in to their attacks on Labour than attacking the Tories as they seem them as a bigger threat to them achieving their ultimate aim. The problem with that is that very few outside of already committed SNP supporters are going to buy any claims that Labour are almost identical to the Tories. It’s going to be interesting though.

Why? People are perfectly capable of doing their own research and arriving to their own well informed conclusions. So it will be obvious to many that Labour are almost identical to the tories.

[archie]

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Why? People are perfectly capable of doing their own research and arriving to their own well informed conclusions. So it will be obvious to many that Labour are almost identical to the tories.

On reflection, you have convinced me. Just keep on what you are doing. It will all be fine.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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On reflection, you have convinced me. Just keep on what you are doing. It will all be fine.

Keir Starmer could be caught photocopying the Conservative Manifesto and sticking the world "Labour" on the title of the document and you'd still be on here pretending that they're offering something different. Who do you think you're fooling?

[Smartie]

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Didn't hear any of the workshopping/speeches at the Caird Hall but was quite impressed at Yousaf interrupting his own speech to go and speak to a distressed woman heckling. Can't imagine any other current party leader doing that. Also heard him speak well of John Smith early on in his leadership when he had a microphone shoved in his face. For me so far it's Yousaf 2, Scooter 1.

I was quite impressed by the way he handled it too.

Does anyone know what it was she was shouting?

[archie]

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Keir Starmer could be caught photocopying the Conservative Manifesto and sticking the world "Labour" on the title of the document and you'd still be on here pretending that they're offering something different. Who do you think you're fooling?

What do you base this on?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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I was quite impressed by the way he handled it too.

Does anyone know what it was she was shouting?

Apparently she was one of the patients of the NHS Tayside scandal involving Sam Eljamel.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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What do you base this on?

Hmm, I don't know. Perhaps it has something to do with Keir Starmer's pro-brexit stance? Or maybe it's his stance against trade unions? Or maybe it's the purging of successfully elected left leaning MPs and Counciliors in the Labour Party? Or perhaps it's his commitment to keeping the tory's anti-protest legislation in place? Or maybe it's his interests and shares in private healthcare? Or his desire to maintain tuition fees in England? Or perhaps it's his backtracking on taxing the wealthiest more? Or his silence over the blocking of devolved matters in Scotland by Westminster? Or allowing people with links to the Orange Order to stand as Councillors in his party? Or turning a blind eye to racism in his party, as long as they lean right enough? Or failing to criticise the tories over their illegal policies over immigration and proposing very similar policies?

Yep. He's a real vote winner in Scotland. Independence supporters are just itching to vote for the newly formed 'Keir Starmer Party'.

[archie]

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Hmm, I don't know. Perhaps it has something to do with Keir Starmer's pro-brexit stance? Or maybe it's his stance against trade unions? Or maybe it's the purging of successfully elected left leaning MPs and Counciliors in the Labour Party? Or perhaps it's his commitment to keeping the tory's anti-protest legislation in place? Or maybe it's his interests and shares in private healthcare? Or his desire to maintain tuition fees in England? Or perhaps it's his backtracking on taxing the wealthiest more? Or his silence over the blocking of devolved matters in Scotland by Westminster? Or allowing people with links to the Orange Order to stand as Councillors in his party? Or turning a blind eye to racism in his party, as long as they lean right enough? Or failing to criticise the tories over their illegal policies over immigration and proposing very similar policies?

Yep. He's a real vote winner in Scotland. Independence supporters are just itching to vote for the newly formed 'Keir Starmer Party'.

I think you're on to something here. If you look at Keir Starmer's register of interests there are no shareholdings at all https://publications.parliament.uk/p...armer_keir.htm

So either a) you have discovered secret shareholdings and you are in a position to blow this wide open or b) you're making things up. If it's b) then it invalidates everything you have said in your post.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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I think you're on to something here. If you look at Keir Starmer's register of interests there are no shareholdings at all https://publications.parliament.uk/p...armer_keir.htm

So either a) you have discovered secret shareholdings and you are in a position to blow this wide open or b) you're making things up. If it's b) then it invalidates everything you have said in your post.

Oh yeah, my bad. He just accepted bribes from private health care firms in the form of cash instead. Good job ducking everything else mentioned though.

[archie]

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Oh yeah, my bad. He just accepted bribes from private health care firms in the form of cash instead. Good job ducking everything else mentioned though.

Wow - that's the story now - he's taking cash bribes. Blow that story open.

Here's a pro tip. No matter how strong your arguments are, they will be tainted if you just make things up.

Imagine you were going for the job as a chief finance officer of a big company. No matter how strong your CV was, the fraud conviction would invalidate everything else.

Or alternatively, just keep on doing what you are doing.

[Mibbes Aye]

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Didn't hear any of the workshopping/speeches at the Caird Hall but was quite impressed at Yousaf interrupting his own speech to go and speak to a distressed woman heckling. Can't imagine any other current party leader doing that. Also heard him speak well of John Smith early on in his leadership when he had a microphone shoved in his face. For me so far it's Yousaf 2, Scooter 1.

I thought it was good of him to go over as well. Genuinely. He sort of undermined it a bit by being so handsy with her though, he was like a flailing octopus 😀

[Mibbes Aye]

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The absence of comment on here about yesterdays talking ( to themselves) shop the SNP held yesterday tells a story. Yousaf’s big idea has been revealed to consist of telling the voters that a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence. He did sort of reveal that having a majority of MPs in Scotland now rather than having the majority of the vote would be mandate required to ask for a referundum but even that needed clarification. The summer will be spent telling the membership to accept that and vote for it at conference in October. Anybody still think we will see independence in the next ten years if at all? Asking people to lend their vote for another decade is going to see far fewer takers now.

Apologies in advance if I have picked you up wrong, but when you say majority do you mean more than half? Because after this morning’s media rounds it sounded like he was saying most MPs, even if it is less than half.

Either way it isn’t about actual votes by actual voters. That’s not democracy, that’s desperation.

[cabbageandribs1875]

the Britnats wouldn't be happy with this fact, you know, the ones who think Britain is somehow a country

[marinello59]

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Apologies in advance if I have picked you up wrong, but when you say majority do you mean more than half? Because after this morning’s media rounds it sounded like he was saying most MPs, even if it is less than half.

Either way it isn’t about actual votes by actual voters. That’s not democracy, that’s desperation.

I’m not actually a 100% sure what he meant. Hopefully he knows himself.

[archie]

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the Britnats wouldn't be happy with this fact, you know, the ones who think Britain is somehow a country

OMG - you better let the UN, G7 IMF etc know.

[Andy Bee]

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Apologies in advance if I have picked you up wrong, but when you say majority do you mean more than half? Because after this morning’s media rounds it sounded like he was saying most MPs, even if it is less than half.

Either way it isn’t about actual votes by actual voters. That’s not democracy, that’s desperation.

That's a wee bit hypocritical considering both Labour and Tories are denying a Sec 30. Personally I think it's a good idea, the outcome will probably be the same in that the UKG will probably deny any credence to it if the SNP win but at least it's another avenue to explore. The manifesto will be interesting if it's based on what an Independent Scotland could be like i.e. pensions etc.

If they can get the point across that a majority for SNP will start a process rather than what the MSM are trying to peddle about same old same old ask for Sec 30, referendum blah then Labour are in trouble in Scotland.

*Edit* My take is that it's the majority of seats.

[Ozyhibby]

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Apologies in advance if I have picked you up wrong, but when you say majority do you mean more than half? Because after this morning’s media rounds it sounded like he was saying most MPs, even if it is less than half.

Either way it isn’t about actual votes by actual voters. That’s not democracy, that’s desperation.

Isn’t that how we run the UK?


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

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Isn’t that how we run the UK?


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Yep. A system that even Labour have no interest in changing. A system that will benefit Keir Starmer in Scotland in the next election when they sweep up the tory vote.

[Mibbes Aye]

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That's a wee bit hypocritical considering both Labour and Tories are denying a Sec 30. Personally I think it's a good idea, the outcome will probably be the same in that the UKG will probably deny any credence to it if the SNP win but at least it's another avenue to explore. The manifesto will be interesting if it's based on what an Independent Scotland could be like i.e. pensions etc.

If they can get the point across that a majority for SNP will start a process rather than what the MSM are trying to peddle about same old same old ask for Sec 30, referendum blah then Labour are in trouble in Scotland.

*Edit* My take is that it's the majority of seats.

A majority is certainly better than a plurality but you are right, it won’t be seen as legitimate.

I suspect they have to do something about what an independent Scotland might look like, the challenge is that the biggest part, as in 2014, is surely making an economic case that at the very least says things won’t be worse than they are now. And that is a very low bar! But to do that they have to describe how the sums add up and that was a big problem last time.

Regardless of that, they have to put a manifesto forward for what they would do in government, here and now. If they can’t articulate a position on health, education, housing, justice, business, local government etc etc they would rightly be toast. I think they can articulate a position - it is one that I have had cause for disagreement with but I have given them credit in the past for good policy ideas. Then it is over to the public.

They are running against political gravity though. It caught up with the Tories in 64 and 97, caught up with Labour in 2010 and obviously in Scotland. It is inescapable and will catch them before long.

I’m not in favour of separation/independence/leaving the union whatever you want to call it. But if I had any involvement in strategising for it I would have decoupled it from a political party a long time back. Devolution arose from cross-party and no-party support. If independence is to succeed then so must it, I suspect.

[Jack]

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Oh yeah, my bad. He just accepted bribes from private health care firms in the form of cash instead. Good job ducking everything else mentioned though.

The claim was made by EveryDoctor.

EveryDoctor isn't made up of every doctor, only about 1,700 of them.

[archie]

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The claim was made by EveryDoctor.

EveryDoctor isn't made up of every doctor, only about 1,700 of them.

Do you have a link to the claim that Starmer took cash bribes?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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Do you have a link to the claim that Starmer took cash bribes?

If they weren't bribes, then what were they? Were these private healthcare firms just feeling generous?

[archie]

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If they weren't bribes, then what were they? Were these private healthcare firms just feeling generous?

Do you have a link to the claim that Starmer took cash bribes?

[Mibbes Aye]

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Isn’t that how we run the UK?


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It’s not how we left the EU

[TrumpIsAPeado]

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Do you have a link to the claim that Starmer took cash bribes?

It's already been established that Starmer has raked in more than £157,000 from private healthcare links - https://www.thenational.scot/news/uk...-health-firms/

If your argument is that these aren't bribes, then what do you think they are?

[Mibbes Aye]

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If they weren't bribes, then what were they? Were these private healthcare firms just feeling generous?

Which private healthcare firms?

[archie]

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It's already been established that Starmer has raked in more than £157,000 from private healthcare links - https://www.thenational.scot/news/uk...-health-firms/

If your argument is that these aren't bribes, then what do you think they are?

The article is very vague. It doesn't allege bribes. It's extremely fuzzy about the Starmer numbers.Do you know where they come from and what they were for?

[Mibbes Aye]

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The claim was made by EveryDoctor.

EveryDoctor isn't made up of every doctor, only about 1,700 of them.

Meet the EveryDoctor team

https://www.everydoctor.org.uk/team

The person who founded and runs it doesn’t even have a licence to practice.