Hibs and the Irish question

[vercol36]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Yes, obviously. I’d imagine most Aberdeen fans for example are from Protestant families


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You’ve picked a funny team to highlight your point. Every time I’m in Aberdeen, I end up drinking in pubs that used to be churches. Not sure they have religion up that way!

[Clarence]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

you’re probably right.

I was raised by a Protestant family in Ireland but have long since renounced Christianity

Your name is really spot on though.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

You’ve picked a funny team to highlight your point. Every time I’m in Aberdeen, I end up drinking in pubs that used to be churches. Not sure they have religion up that way!

Was just a random choice tbh, other than Hibs and Celtic most teams will have a massive majority of fans who have grown up in what would have been “Protestant” families. Maybe Dundee United to an extent as well, but I don’t think religion is a divisive thing up there really? What I was meaning is you’d never describe Ross county or Queen of the South as “orange”, but Rangers, Airdrie and maybe Hearts? Aye.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mick O'Rourke]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I agree with Oneday, your posts are full of emotion and rich storytelling and the board is a better place for them

Thanks for your kind words,Hibsbollah
Cheered up a wee bit more now this night

[The Harp]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Thanks for your kind words,Hibsbollah
Cheered up a wee bit more now this night

As a fellow St. Giles branch member from the 60s - nae rebel songs :-) I enjoy reading your contributions from the heart too. Keep it going Mick.

God Bless the Hibs.

[cameronw-hfc]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

A quote from some auld jambos book, obviously. A more self agrandising bunch you'd rarely meet.

When Hearts started they were no different to Hibs, St Bernards or Leith Athletic.

You see them as "Edinburgh's Premier Club" but ignore a strong streak of bigotry which is still present or seek to show it by presenting anti-catholicism as normal.

The reason they behave that way is because Hibernian were Catholic. That aspect of their "rock solid" identity is in reality defined by our identity. They have bigots because we were a catholic team. That's weakness and not "rock solid" at all.

Yes, Edinburgh had many strands of anti-Catholism but it wasn't normal, neither was it "respectable". Many people in Edinburgh shunned bigotry, some protestants were Hibs sympathisers simply because we played in aid of their Protestant charities.

The language around your perceived view that Harry Swan wanted Hibs catholicism "sanitised" is revealing whether its conscious or not and doesn't look all that great next to Hearts bigotry being seen portrayed "respectable".

Your initial views were...

"It was Harry Swan i think, who got rid of the harp, changed the strips and would have gone further - he wanted go the whole hog and change Hibs shirts to Arsenal shirts, not just the white sleeves but the whole red body too, according to one of Mackays Hibs history books.
I suspect the famous five, and a young male population flush with British nationalism post ww2 brought a lot of non traditional glory hunting Hibs supporters, along with slum clearances breaking up the Hibs communities around the same time."

...and they just don't stack up given the nuance and circumstance around the removal of the Harp, which you want to present in most simple and anachronistic way, the fact that we played in green throughout his tenure as well as to this day and the fact that we have always been Hibernian FC.

You also claim.


"These new fans will have brought Scotlands own, deeply ingrained anti Irish / anti Catholic attitudes to the newly sanitised Hibs of Swan."

Prove that.

Where is your evidence that Hibs brought in new Anti-catholic fans to the club because of Swan getting rid of green sleeves, unsubstantiated rumours from the 30's and the Harp being removed in 1956.

It just sounds like hogwash.

It also ignores the fact that not everyone saw life through "Scotlands deeply ingrained anti" whatever you seem to wish.

EG - My family are total heathens, neither catholic or protestant, hate bigots and have had Hibs fans within for 3 generations. I did have an episcopalian, jambo grandad but nobody liked him.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

You seem to really, really have a personal issue with this poster lol. His posts to me read like he's trying to take the green tinted specs off and just give a balanced view of how he understood things happened.

Whilst im young and wasn't alive during any of this, I've read a fair amount and there's multiple stories about Swan on both sides with little to no evidence, given the period of time he was at the club during that's hardly surprising.

A lot of what we have from that period are stories and memories of those who lived around/close to that period of time, so posting things like "prove it" seems a bit funny given not a whole lot in this thread can actually be proven either way, otherwise there wouldn't be a discussion about what happened/how things happened.

[Mick O'Rourke]

My earlier posts re Swan are a bit erse fae elbae in terms of timelines/frames.
Of course the height of public hostility to Roman Catholics was in the decade Harry took the helm at Easter Road.

And reading other contributions, it struck me that the year/s Harry was supposedly making all these changes came at the time the Famous Five sides late 40s/early 50s were in decline and Hearts were embarking on the most successful period in their history.

Although in the space of 6 years or so we got to the semi final of the 1st European Cup,"lost" the Scottish Cup v Clyde and beat the mighty Barcelona.... and then..... just avoided relegation in 62/63


By then Harry had all but retired.
But his memory marches on... and rightly so.
(i changed my mind on Harry too, many years ago)

Its a shame there is no autobiography written about Harry. (or was there?)
We might have got the answers we have sought all these years on some of the issues raised here.

GGTTH

[J-C]

I'm protestant and grew up in the colonies at Leith Links, I was a Hibs fan due to location and all my mates from the area, nothing to do with religion. Nowadays I'm an atheist as I've been educated 🤣, never understood all the bigot songs as they had nothing to do with football, preferred singing all the Hibs songs.

[Musselbound]

In the 2011 Census, more people in Scotland identified as No Religion (36.7%) than Church of Scotland (32.4%). So claiming as a few posters have that most Scottish football fans are some sort of default Protestant is a very dated view really.

[DIXIHIBS]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

In the context of Scottish football fans is there a nuanced difference between orange and Protestant?

Huge difference. Myself and many of my friends are protestant/CofS or at least come from protestant families but they are definitely not orange.

[The Modfather]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Huge difference. Myself and many of my friends are protestant/CofS or at least come from protestant families but they are definitely not orange.

I didn’t ask if there was a difference between the orange order and being Protestant, of which there is. I asked if in the context of Scottish football, and fans singing about it, if the two were the same thing. For example, Celtc fans singing about Beale being a sad orange *******. Were they singing about him being part of the orange order? Or were they singing about him being Protestant?

[Mick O'Rourke]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

As a fellow St. Giles branch member from the 60s - nae rebel songs :-) I enjoy reading your contributions from the heart too. Keep it going Mick.

God Bless the Hibs.

Aye
Behave you lot or nae chips in Blackburn


God Bless The Harp

[Mick O'Rourke]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I didn’t ask if there was a difference between the orange order and being Protestant, of which there is. I asked if in the context of Scottish football, and fans singing about it, if the two were the same thing. For example, Celtc fans singing about Beale being a sad orange *******. Were they singing about him being part of the orange order? Or were they singing about him being Protestant?

Thousands of Non Catholics follow/support Celtic. So i say not at all.
That moronic chant has been aimed at other rangers managers over the years.
But not Steven Gerrard !!

Beale could be Buddhist or Hindu,for all they would know,or even care.
The chant would be the same.(unless he was known to be a Catholic,it would likely not be sung at all)
Its aimed also to wind up the rAngers hordes,of course.

When rAngers sing the similar song using the word fenian. They mean Catholic.

Is that racist,sectarian or bigoted ?

Yes,on 2 counts at least,as is the despicable and racist famine song,which the singing of is a criminal offence.


https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search...0-ff0000d74aa7

[Scotty Leither]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Harry from 1931 presided over Hibernian in troubled times, not just in Europe with the rise of Hitler, but also in Edinburgh.
In the pre WW2 years there was certainly anti Catholic views even from some local fascist politicians

The Protestant Action Society with the slogan, No Popery and policies to "assist" Irish Catholics to "go home"
Now this Society had 11 councillors elected to the City Council up at the Chambers.
Most of those councillors represented wards/seats in Leith..... Sad i know !.
As i read about this period and the Morningside Riots and tying it in with the Swan controversy /conspiracies.
I think Harry thought he had a dilemma .
War came and men and women returning turned their back on groups like John Cormack and his sectarian band of bigots and those that believed all their ills was the fault of "Irish Catholics". (many who had never been to Ireland !)
John Cormack could be described as an early Ian Paisley/Jack Glass ,but more dangerous.

Harry was in no way anti Catholic,I just think he thought small changes (not replacing Harp on public display) and the crown and ball badge would benefit Hibs.and gather more local support.
Changing our colours was the hardest. Even if he was mulling that decision over, it would have led to a mass exodus of fans .So i can only guess he had very good council on that particular/possible change.

Even as a wee boy, i remember men singing on the St Giles Bus "we'll hang Harry Swan wae a rope aroond his neck"
I think also among fans then was an anti masonic feeling .
Harry did appoint a Catholic priest,who was his dear friend as a councillor at the club for players who might have sought such spiritual or other help.

Harry also i understand bore the coffin at St Patrick's of one of the last Irish members of our board which i believe also had a wreath in the shape of a broken harp.
Harry was a visionary,no one doubts that. His tenure at Hibs was certainly a turbulent and fruitful one.

Finally,you can tell i am not a Hibernian historian, but sharing thoughts and views i have had over many years
GGTTH

10/10. Mick.

Cormack used to spout his poison (to fairly substantial numbers) up at the Mound every Sunday.

My late Dad was acquainted with him. “A wee ****ing snotter” was my father’s pithy description of him.

[Mick O'Rourke]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

10/10. Mick.

Cormack used to spout his poison (to fairly substantial numbers) up at the Mound every Sunday.

My late Dad was acquainted with him. “A wee ****ing snotter” was my father’s pithy description of him.

Thanks Scotty
Nice to know my posts get read !!

They were still at the Mound in the mid/late sixties
I use to,with other like minded good citizens heckle the "orator"
James MacLean a leading light in the LOL in Scotland to this day and a freemason was always in attendance then.
But their visible support had dwindled by then.
I saw some of that crowd foaming at the mouth on The Mound when Pope John Paul came to town.

Funny but true story

A number of years ago i attended a funeral of the dad of a friend of mine from Clermiston.
The post service reception was at the Shrubhill Masonic.
.My friends dad was a Mason.I didnt know that at the time .
I still would of course attended his funeral
What unfolded was, to use the modern term "mental"or "insane"
.

James MacLean (above) was at the door welcoming funeral attendees (he did the eulogy at Warriston)
As i aproached the door ,he put his hand out to shake mine.
Although i had not seen the man for many years ,i recognised him.
I deflected and said something non important to change the scene/
He then said "Morning Brother, you know the way, on you go !!

He was circulating later and arrived at our table.
In conversation,i informed him that i had "heated" arguments with him in the sixties.
He recalled some of those Sunday morning "exchanges" at the Mound.
He finished up buying me a double malt.You could not make this stuff up !
I felt it rude to refuse as he never invited me to "go home." but i knew where he stood.

Strange day it all was
I did not initially know my pals dad was a mason let alone friends with fellow mason/orangeman MacLean

[Hibernian Verse]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Nice to know my posts get read !!

If people aren't reading your long posts they are missing out. As a member of a much younger generation they fascinate me, along with a number of other excellent posters.

I'll be buying James Stephens book for sure.

[Mick O'Rourke]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

If people aren't reading your long posts they are missing out. As a member of a much younger generation they fascinate me, along with a number of other excellent posters.

I'll be buying James Stephens book for sure.

Thank you kindly HV

The forum is good therapy for me as sometimes a topic arises that jogs a past memory/incident/story i had forgotten for years.

Then i head for the keyboard !

GGTTH

[monarch]

Mick O’Rourke is the Hibs.net equivalent of a “national treasure”.

Keep posting Mick.

[Ringothedog]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Thanks Scotty
Nice to know my posts get read !!

They were still at the Mound in the mid/late sixties
I use to,with other like minded good citizens heckle the "orator"
James MacLean a leading light in the LOL in Scotland to this day and a freemason was always in attendance then.
But their visible support had dwindled by then.
I saw some of that crowd foaming at the mouth on The Mound when Pope John Paul came to town.

Funny but true story

A number of years ago i attended a funeral of the dad of a friend of mine from Clermiston.
The post service reception was at the Shrubhill Masonic.
.My friends dad was a Mason,but not an Orangeman.
James MacLean (above) was at the door welcoming funeral attendees (he did the eulogy at Warriston)
As i aproached the door ,he put his hand out to shake mine.
Although i had not seen the man for many years ,i recognised him.
I deflected and said something non important to change the scene/
He then said "Morning Brother, you know the way, on you go !!

He was circulating later and arrived at our table.
In conversation,i informed him that i had "heated" arguments with him in the sixties.
He recalled some of those Sunday morning "exchanges" at the Mound.
He finished up buying me a double malt.You could not make this stuff up !
I felt it rude to refuse as he never invited me to "go home." but i knew where he stood.

Strange day it all was
I did not initially know my pals dad was a mason let alone friends with fellow mason/orangeman MacLean

I used to work with him and gave him a hard time which he took well. I am not sure if there is any truth in this but I had heard he was brought up RC and then turned to the total opposite. Also that he was a hibby when younger but turned to the dark side. I am sure someone on here can correct me if I am wrong.

[Scotty Leither]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Thanks Scotty
Nice to know my posts get read !!

They were still at the Mound in the mid/late sixties
I use to,with other like minded good citizens heckle the "orator"
James MacLean a leading light in the LOL in Scotland and a freemason was always in attendance then.
But their visible support had dwindled by then.
I saw some of that crowd foaming at the mouth on The Mound when Pope John Paul came to town.

Funny but true story

A number of years ago i attended a funeral of the dad of a friend of mine from Clermiston.
The post service reception was at the Shrubhill Masonic.
.My friends dad was a Mason,but not an Orangeman.
James MacLean (above) was at the door welcoming funeral attendees (he did the eulogy at Warriston)
As i aproached the door ,he put his hand out to shake mine.
Although i had not seen the man for many years ,i recognised him.
I deflected and said something non important to change the scene/
He then said "Morning Brother, you know the way, on you go !!

He was circulating later and arrived at our table.
In conversation,i informed him that i had "heated" arguments with him in the sixties.
He recalled some of those Sunday morning "exchanges" at the Mound.
He finished up buying me a double malt.You could not make this stuff up !
I felt it rude to refuse as he never invited me to "go home." but i knew where he stood.

Strange day it all was
I did not know my pals dad was a mason let alone friends with fellow mason/orangeman MacLean

Nae bother Mick, I enjoy reading them. In later years I recall reading a story about Cormack being effectively neutered by the Cooncil to moderate his “views” if he wanted to retain his seat at meetings.

Seemed he was by then viewed as a harmless avuncular figure rather than the **** stirrer he undoubtedly was.

Seems we’ve still not learned our lesson in placating rather than condemning hate-mongers…

I too have read Gallacher’s brilliant book “Edinburgh Divided”.

One section analyses the make-up of Protestant Action, and their core membership coming from Leith.

He posited the view that many of them were Hibs supporters purely because that was their local team, and the Irish roots of the club were secondary to them.

A cracking read, and another book I’d recommend to anyone following this thread.

[Mick O'Rourke]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Nae bother Mick, I enjoy reading them. In later years I recall reading a story about Cormack being effectively neutered by the Cooncil to moderate his “views” if he wanted to retain his seat at meetings.

Seemed he was by then viewed as a harmless avuncular figure rather than the **** stirrer he undoubtedly was.

Seems we’ve still not learned our lesson in placating rather than condemning hate-mongers…

I too have read Gallacher’s brilliant book “Edinburgh Divided”.

One section analyses the make-up of Protestant Action, and their core membership coming from Leith.

He posited the view that many of them were Hibs supporters purely because that was their local team, and the Irish roots of the club were secondary to them.

A cracking read, and another book I’d recommend to anyone following this thread.

Funny enough an Orangeman i worked with many years ago loaned me that book !!
He only joined for the social events and nights oot !!

Yes i think there was what we now refer to as populism back then.
The ignorant and ill informed fall easily into the clutches of despots.
Common in Europe pre WW2 with the rise of fascism.
Repeat the same lies long enough....
For today ....See Donald Trump

I was very active in local union/party politics back 70s/80s.
I attended many meetings at the City Chambers
Elderly Labour cooncillor who knew Cormack told me this.

Cormack being his party leader had his own office with toilet where it was alleged he wiped his erchie with squares of paper cut from copies of The Catholic Herald

When they (P/Action) would hold meetings in The Grassmarket (Martyrs Cross) the lodging houses like Castle Trades
(75 as it was know to us) were full of single Irishmen many working on the building sites here.
My grandad and uncles who lived there at the time would tell us stories.
Cormack would be wearing tennis shoe or the trainers of the day ,as he and his mob frequently got chased up the West Bow by the restless natives !!

Getintaerum !!

Yes he did end up a pathetic and mostly ignored figure
He still had his acolytes,but they were as mental as him.

One more wee story on Cormack

I remember a woman who was keyholder/ caretaker of Royston Wardieburn C/Centre when i worked and socialised there mid 70s to early 80s. before i moved back to Clerry
Jean her name was .
She told me that in her youth she entered dance competitions.
One such comp at Leith Town Hall she won along with of course her male dance partner.
Cormack was "special" guest and presented wristwatches to the winners.
Someone must have told him that Jeans partner was a Catholic and active in St Mary's Star of the Sea church in Leith.
Cormack congratulated Jean,handing her both watches and walked off the platform.
Jean never forgot that she said and hated all that horrible man stood for ever since.

[superfurryhibby]

Mentions of Jxxxx Mcxxxx, who as I recall, was actually the illegitimate child of Cormack, although that may not be entirely accurate.

James was an Orangeman, of some standing in Edinburgh. I'm sure they had premises at Shrubhill, a social club.

[Mick O'Rourke]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Mick O’Rourke is the Hibs.net equivalent of a “national treasure”.

Keep posting Mick.

Awe Shucks!!

[NAE NOOKIE]

It's a known fact that Hibs were so anti our Irish roots in the 70s they tried to get Joe Harper to change his name to Joe Piper

Seriously though, in the end the great thing is that for a long time now so far as Edinburgh goes religion has played absolutely no part in what club folk choose to follow, it's overwhelmingly got to do with who your family support, who your mates support or what part of Edinburgh you go to school in, quite often all three.

A previous poster suggested that the fans had forced the club to reinstate the harp when the badge was re designed at the start of the 00s ... but that isn't strictly true. Fans were invited to send in badge designs and pretty well all of them had a harp included. If Hibs rejected any of them it was because they were quarter shield designs which are usually used to signify a joining of two families in heraldry and would have been rejected by the Lord Lyon's office. The truth is the club was more than happy to include the harp in any design of the new badge.

What we ended up with IMO finally put to bed arguments over how to reflect or project the club's identity ... What folk seem to forget in these discussions is that this club's roots are every bit Edinburgh as they are Ireland .. the club was after all founded in Edinburgh, it didn't move there from somewhere else.

Founded by Irishmen .......The Harp ...... Tick
Founded in Edinburgh ..... The Castle ... Tick
Spent most of it's History in Leith, where it draws a lot of it's support from .. The Ship .... Tick
For over a century Arthur's Seat has provided a backdrop to our stadium ..... Tick

It's perfect and we'll never change it.

The religious element which still pervades the Glasgow derby reminds me of an episode of Star Trek ......... Two planets who have been at war for so long nobody can remember what the hell it is that they were fighting about in the first place, all they know is they are supposed to hate each other and the whole thing just became self perpetuating, with the original cause or grievance rendered moot as it was replaced by simple hatred which itself became the sole reason to fight.

What has changed is that on the Blue side of that divide the 'protestant' dynamic has been replaced ( or reinforced, take yer pick ) by a rise of 'British' nationalism ..... we ain't just the quintessential protestant club any more, we are now the quintessential 'British' club. Which has resulted in a hatred of the idea of Scottish independence and anti Scottish government rhetoric spewing out from their various fan groups from time to time. I appreciate that does not apply to all Rangers supporters ... but heaven help anybody who nay says it in the bars around Ibrox pre or post match.

[WhileTheChief..]

There's a Jewish lad works in my office in Glasgow.

He was recently asked if he was a Protestant or Catholic Jew!

[Mick O'Rourke]

The Star Trek analogy is so true,NN
My faither and his faither and on and on with no real understanding of what they think they are "standing for"
It is what it is cos its always been that way they are told


As to the Blue side .Al pick on them

Ibrox is their temple .They need the rangers to exist.
Otherwise life is over for many of them and the OO would decline in numbers over time.

This denial that their club ceased to exist has to be expressed for them to exist !
55 and all that.1872 flags and banners ever present in tifos and such
Its the rest of us they are trying to convince they are the same entity.
Of course they didnt really walk away, they just regrouped and returned as venomous as ever.
Their Britishness?
Their rendition of Rule Britannia down in Manchester was priceless as they proceeded to rampage through a major British city and trash the city centre battering cops in the way.
They demolished Newcastle in 1969
I witnessed the aftermath when visiting a pal two weeks after it.
My pal said i should maybe keep my voice down in the pub and he would get the drinks.
True

Sorry!, me off on a tangent again !!
What was the question again, Bamber? !

[Green Reaper]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Awe Shucks!!

I love reading your posts Mick, along with other 'older' posters, and am sure I could listen to your recollections and memories for hours, fascinating, hope you have a lot of this written down so they are not lost. 💚

[Mick O'Rourke]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I love reading your posts Mick, along with other 'older' posters, and am sure I could listen to your recollections and memories for hours, fascinating, hope you have a lot of this written down so they are not lost. ��

Not really GP, and thanks for your comments
Just sometimes threads/topics turn a tap on in ma heed/a recollection and off i go.
Maybe i should have copied them.
I didn't know i had such a life until i read them mysel .
But as i said earlier its good for me to recall happenings of 50 yrs ago and more.
And i though drink had befuddled my memory of earlier years.
But no... wee clips/memories appear now and then .
Hibs.net is responsible, not me !!

[hibsbollah]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

My late Dad was acquainted with him. “A wee ****ing snotter” was my father’s pithy description of him.

Brilliant. Calling someone ‘a wee snotter’ needs to make a comeback.

[leith lynx]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Brilliant. Calling someone ‘a wee snotter’ needs to make a comeback.

A 'wee nyaff' would be appropriate as well!