The Trans Rights Debate

[James310]

Q - "Do you think trans people who are convicted of crimes like that (sex crimes) should be in women's jails?"

SNP MP Alyn Smith: "I've nothing to say on that"

Isn't Cornton Vale in his constituency?

Although he has history here.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/new...-election/amp/

[147lothian]

Its good to see that some trans people acknowledge the reality of biological sex, for some trans people if there is no such thing as biological sex then there can be no such thing as trans, for Debbie Hayton things were much better 10 years ago before the activists who are themselves not trans came along with the nebulous concept of gender ideology. All people have done with gender ideology virtue signaling is they have turned trans rights into a circus.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other...us/ar-AA16NiTR

[AgentDaleCooper]

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Its good to see that some trans people acknowledge the reality of biological sex, for some trans people if there is no such thing as biological sex then there can be no such thing as trans, for Debbie Hayton things were much better 10 years ago before the activists who are themselves not trans came along with the nebulous concept of gender ideology. All people have done with gender ideology virtue signaling is they have turned trans rights into a circus.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other...us/ar-AA16NiTR

I think both sides have turned this into a circus. A lot of men with no skin in the game at all contributing.

IMO a 'debate' is not what should be happening - it should be a discussion, with sensitivity employed towards everyone affected. No need for all the 'behead TERFs'/'just say it as it is - big burly men' stuff. Totally destructive rhetoric.

[archie]

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I think both sides have turned this into a circus. A lot of men with no skin in the game at all contributing.

IMO a 'debate' is not what should be happening - it should be a discussion, with sensitivity employed towards everyone affected. No need for all the 'behead TERFs'/'just say it as it is - big burly men' stuff. Totally destructive rhetoric.

And no acknowledgement of the womens contribution?

[Hibrandenburg]

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TBH I'm struggling to see anything ironic in what you said. But sure, that must be me.

The main argument from some posters on here is that male sex offenders are so desperate to get into the ladies toilets that they're willing to claim they're transgender to do so. The poster I quoted has argued this previously and now jokingly makes comments about transgender female police offers like it's all just a big joke for transgender females, but hey, I'm the bad guy.

[147lothian]

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And no acknowledgement of the womens contribution?

Women are certainly affected most by the crazy policy of placing people in prison on the basis of how someone identifies rather than the reality of biological sex. If it wasn't for the Adam Graham AKA Isly Bryson situation causing international news coverage and a public uproar, Adam Burns AKA Tiffany Scott would have been transferred to a female prison, a very dangerous individual who stalked a 13 year old girl while in prison.

They are not the only ones, Amanda Benson gives her account of what it was like to be in prison at Gateside Prison in what is known as the female estate which was meant to house 40 female prisoners but in reality had 38 female prisoners and 2 biologically male prisoners, one of whom was in there for murder, the other who she describes as a scary hulk of a man who was about 6'3 who was in there for domestic violence.

According to Amanda Benson these incredibly violent men were walking around the communal shower area naked and sometimes clearly aroused. While she and other women were in cubicles with only a curtain to protect them.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/e...int_source=nba

[archie]

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The main argument from some posters on here is that male sex offenders are so desperate to get into the ladies toilets that they're willing to claim they're transgender to do so. The poster I quoted has argued this previously and now jokingly makes comments about transgender female police offers like it's all just a big joke for transgender females, but hey, I'm the bad guy.

I've got to say that's not the main argument I'm seeing. There is an argument about same sex spaces and the powerlessness many women feel about retaining these. Same sex care is also an issue. These are important issues, wouldn't you say?

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/bindelj/status/1620167434388008960?s=20&t=8PtprGIkNvL-xK3OTHizgw

[He's here!]

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I think both sides have turned this into a circus. A lot of men with no skin in the game at all contributing.

IMO a 'debate' is not what should be happening - it should be a discussion, with sensitivity employed towards everyone affected. No need for all the 'behead TERFs'/'just say it as it is - big burly men' stuff. Totally destructive rhetoric.

The phrase used by JKR was actually 'hulking great rapist' which seems accurate enough. Sensitivity is all well and good but there's nothing subtle about the Bryson case. To try and adopt a 'sensitive' approach along the lines of 'everyone is who they say they are' (and, according to Sturgeon, anyone who disagrees is a bigot) is absurd in cases like this.

[Hibrandenburg]

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I've got to say that's not the main argument I'm seeing. There is an argument about same sex spaces and the powerlessness many women feel about retaining these. Same sex care is also an issue. These are important issues, wouldn't you say?

Does the transgender bill remove the right to same sex care?

[archie]

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Does the transgender bill remove the right to same sex care?

Taken in conjunction with the Haldane judgement it creates a situation whereby someone with a self ID'd GRC is treated as that sex. This is coupled with it being an offence to reveal if someone has a GRC makes it more likely. Having said that, the u turn on prisons opens this up again. Might other ministerial interventions occur for other situations given the precedent has been set? Who knows?

[Stairway 2 7]

Gender rebels should quit snp says Alyn Smith, no room for a difference of opinions
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...e73250dc652343

Joanna Cherry's response

Joanna Cherry KC
@joannaccherry
Self identification was not promised in the SNP manifesto & our conference did not debate never mind back it. We rebels are going nowhere particularly now that events have substantiated our legitimate concerns. I hope that’s clear

Apart from anything else many of us have resisted years of bullying. Why on Earth would we give up now?

[He's here!]

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Gender rebels should quit snp says Alyn Smith, no room for a difference of opinions
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...e73250dc652343

Joanna Cherry's response

Joanna Cherry KC
@joannaccherry
Self identification was not promised in the SNP manifesto & our conference did not debate never mind back it. We rebels are going nowhere particularly now that events have substantiated our legitimate concerns. I hope that’s clear

Apart from anything else many of us have resisted years of bullying. Why on Earth would we give up now?

It's been pointed out before that self-ID is not in the manifesto. Smyth is talking rubbish. 'Play for the jersey'...jeez.

In saying that, I admire Cherry's stoicism by not (yet) resigning from the SNP after the way she's been treated by her own party.

[CropleyWasGod]

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My solution is still the same even for people who have fully transitioned. They still go to a male prison if they were born male or a female prison if they were born female, this is because biological sex is immutable a baby even before it is born has chromosomes that are either male or female and no amount of surgery changes this.

Again though I do believe that trans prisoners need to have their rights protected in prison and be housed in wings that are separate from the general prison population. I hate to be the barer of bad news but in reality no-one has ever been born in the wrong body and that is a fact.

You've made your position quite plain.

Would that change if someone close to you was considering a change of gender?

[He's here!]

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Taken in conjunction with the Haldane judgement it creates a situation whereby someone with a self ID'd GRC is treated as that sex. This is coupled with it being an offence to reveal if someone has a GRC makes it more likely. Having said that, the u turn on prisons opens this up again. Might other ministerial interventions occur for other situations given the precedent has been set? Who knows?

Keith Brown said yesterday: 'If someone presents as a trans person we accept that at face value'. As you say, the prisons fiasco calls into question the wisdom of such an approach and self-ID full-stop.

[James310]

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It's been pointed out before that self-ID is not in the manifesto. Smyth is talking rubbish. 'Play for the jersey'...jeez.

In saying that, I admire Cherry's stoicism by not (yet) resigning from the SNP after the way she's been treated by her own party.

I am sure Smyth was against the SNP’s official policy on an independent Scotland signing the TPNW (Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons) and said so. He seems to pick and choose what people should support or not support depending on his personal views, maybe he just needs to play for the jersey.

[archie]

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Does the transgender bill remove the right to same sex care?

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You've made your position quite plain.

Would that change if someone close to you was considering a change of gender?

Getting a bit close to the 'would you support capital punishment if your daughter was killed ' argument. FWIW I think the argument needs detoxing if that's possible. Could we pause the legislation and perhaps have something like a citizens assembly to unpack the issues and find ways forward? Both sides would need to be open to being challenged. There has to be a way that respects the rights of all concerned surely.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.gov.scot/publications/an...eview/pages/1/

Scot gov releases its review of funding for violence to women and girls services. The overwhelming responses from individuals and organisations call for single sex places.


"Single-sex spaces and services
The most frequent cross-cutting theme concerned the need for single-sex services and female-only staff. Respondents highlighted that single-sex services should be made into law, widely available, clearly advertised and co-exist with non-single-sex options. Responses suggested that single-sex spaces are vital to ensuring victims of VAWG feel safe and protected, otherwise women might self-exclude due to religious or cultural reasons."

[AgentDaleCooper]

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And no acknowledgement of the womens contribution?

Jesus christ.

[archie]

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Jesus christ.

????

[Smartie]

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I think both sides have turned this into a circus. A lot of men with no skin in the game at all contributing.

IMO a 'debate' is not what should be happening - it should be a discussion, with sensitivity employed towards everyone affected. No need for all the 'behead TERFs'/'just say it as it is - big burly men' stuff. Totally destructive rhetoric.

Totally agree.

A very interesting and sensitive subject that should be treated with dignity and respect has been hijacked by morons.

[AgentDaleCooper]

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????

I was talking about negative contributions, so for me, a cis male, with no skin in game, to start commenting on how women en mas are contributing to the discourse would be pretty royally misogynistic.

EDIT: sorry if i picked you up wrong, which i probably did...time for me to give this thread a break

[Crunchie]

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It's been pointed out before that self-ID is not in the manifesto. Smyth is talking rubbish. 'Play for the jersey'...jeez.

In saying that, I admire Cherry's stoicism by not (yet) resigning from the SNP after the way she's been treated by her own party.

They've treated her disgracefully, I hope and suspect she'll have the last laugh.

[Ozyhibby]

https://youtu.be/WqDlVtgeYnk


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[Hibrandenburg]

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Taken in conjunction with the Haldane judgement it creates a situation whereby someone with a self ID'd GRC is treated as that sex. This is coupled with it being an offence to reveal if someone has a GRC makes it more likely. Having said that, the u turn on prisons opens this up again. Might other ministerial interventions occur for other situations given the precedent has been set? Who knows?

So that's a no then.

[archie]

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So that's a no then.

I don't know how you can come to that conclusion from what I said. Care to expand?

[AgentDaleCooper]

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I don't know how you can come to that conclusion from what I said. Care to expand?

i know i said i'd butt out, but this is the problem that seems to keep coming up, especially after something in the news - people, who as i keep saying, have no skin in the game, seem to interpret things so radically differently because the issue gets so heated.

[archie]

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i know i said i'd butt out, but this is the problem that seems to keep coming up, especially after something in the news - people, who as i keep saying, have no skin in the game, seem to interpret things so radically differently because the issue gets so heated.

Just out of interest, who do you think 'has skin in the game'.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Just out of interest, who do you think 'has skin in the game'.

Surely anyone who is trans, female, has a close relative is female or just someone who supports the rights of any of the groups affected. Then again on the other hand I'm not a public sector worker but I'm very concerned about their dispute also

[He's here!]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...f-isla-bryson/

Article from former Cornton Vale governor. Be interesting to hear what the current governor thinks of this fiasco but as Hotchkiss points out they'd lose their job if they spoke out.