Hibs 18's and Development

[CapitalGreen]

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Therein lies the trouble.

As another poster said, if there are provisos around improving contracts if young players play in first team games then it would be truly appalling if that became the basis for holding any of them back.

We don’t have a history of holding young players back but we do have a history of fans putting unrealistic expectations on young players based solely on their performances in youth football.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Don't know if any of the current crop of young players are worthy of a first team start because I haven't seen them play, a situation I fully intend to rectify when they play Borussia Dortmund on the 7th of February .... at a fiver to get in and the opposition being one of Europe's biggest clubs I'm sort of hoping for a crowd approaching 10,000 ... If our women's team can get near that, even if it was free to get in, then I can't see why this game cant come close at a mere £5 .... if it's promoted properly.

In just the week past I've seen a 17 year old score in the English championship and a ( barely ) 17 year old Scot play twice for Liverpool's first team, looks a cracking wee player by the way, but that being the case at what point will Hibs acknowledge the 'if your good enough your old enough' adage, if some of our youngsters are as good as the results they get seem to indicate and from the feedback of some on here who have actually seen them play it seems strange that we haven't seen at least one of them given a chance on the park.

[superfurryhibby]

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We don’t have a history of holding young players back but we do have a history of fans putting unrealistic expectations on young players based solely on their performances in youth football.

Maybe, that's not what's being discussed. Said young players are out of contract this summer and may well leave the club. What's your thoughts on that?

[CapitalGreen]

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Maybe, that's not what's being discussed. Said young players are out of contract this summer and may well leave the club. What's your thoughts on that?

I’d be wary of being held to ransom for young players who can’t break into a terrible Hibs team. O’Connor is 19 in the Summer and in my opinion isn’t anything special. Laidlaw definitely has potential and having just turned 18, I’d like to see him kept on to continue his development but potential is still all it is, he’s yet to establish himself in the first team.

People have complained about other players blocking the path to the first team for younger players but if the likes of O’Connor is given a long contract and doesn’t develop into a first team player, will he then be blocking the pathway for the likes of Landers coming through after him?

[Danderhall Hibs]

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I’d be wary of being held to ransom for young players who can’t break into a terrible Hibs team. O’Connor is 19 in the Summer and in my opinion isn’t anything special. Laidlaw definitely has potential and having just turned 18, I’d like to see him kept on to continue his development but potential is still all it is, he’s yet to establish himself in the first team.

People have complained about other players blocking the path to the first team for younger players but if the likes of O’Connor is given a long contract and doesn’t develop into a first team player, will he then be blocking the pathway for the likes of Landers coming through after him?

Agreed. Is it really being suggested we should offer great contracts to these guys? They've got to be assessed and if good enough they'll get an offer based on their status in the squad, i.e. squad/fringe player.

[The Modfather]

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We don’t have a history of holding young players back but we do have a history of fans putting unrealistic expectations on young players based solely on their performances in youth football.

I’d disagree. I’ve put up the study before that showed the number of debuts given and minutes player from 2009 - 2019 for homegrown players. We compared badly, particularly in minutes played, with Rangers, Celtc, Hearts, Aberdeen & Dundee Utd. I wouldn’t have thought since 2019 we’d fare any better.

Yes there’s not anyone we’ve let go that we’ve really regretted without going back to Booth, Wotherspoon & maybe Sean Welsh who went on to have solid careers. My gripe is how many players have we brought in to simply make up the numbers and at times play players out of position rather than use them. Off the top of my head Nelom, Eckersley, Eardley, Big Dave, Darnell Johnson, Nathan Wood, Bojang etc etc. That’s not even including players we signed who have simply offered nothing McKirdy, Tavares, Melkerson etc. We should be padding our squad out with our own youngsters and putting the money we spend on the type of signings mentioned above (Nelom etc) on a stronger starting 11.

[KWJ]

I'm a bit surprised that we've not loaned out more of these youngsters. It's good having them together for this tournament but at 18 O'Connor should be getting some first team action.

I can't think of many of our young players that've come through and done well without first having a loan spell. Campbell, Porteous, Doig and then back to the likes of Shaw, Murray and Stanton. Harris done well without one before his injury and so did Cummings but he didn't exactly hit the ground running.

Doig, Porteous and Campbell all clearly benefitted from their loan.

[scoopyboy]

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I'm a bit surprised that we've not loaned out more of these youngsters. It's good having them together for this tournament but at 18 O'Connor should be getting some first team action.

I can't think of many of our young players that've come through and done well without first having a loan spell. Campbell, Porteous, Doig and then back to the likes of Shaw, Murray and Stanton. Harris done well without one before his injury and so did Cummings but he didn't exactly hit the ground running.

Doig, Porteous and Campbell all clearly benefitted from their loan.

If we put them out on loan then they can't play in the UEFA Youth League.

The laddies deserve the chance to continue their European run.

[The Modfather]

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If we put them out on loan then they can't play in the UEFA Youth League.

The laddies deserve the chance to continue their European run.

Is the European run, as impressive as it is, and little other games enough for their development? Or would they develop more playing a seasons worth of first team football? Genuine questions, as I don’t know the answers.

My worry is that there’s an element of vanity in having a team doing well in Europe rather than it being the best option for their development this season.

[scoopyboy]

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Is the European run, as impressive as it is, and little other games enough for their development? Or would they develop more playing a seasons worth of first team football? Genuine questions, as I don’t know the answers.

My worry is that there’s an element of vanity in having a team doing well in Europe rather than it being the best option for their development this season.

Very good points.

I'm pretty sure Hibs had hoped for far more fixtures, the Reserve League has been a flop.

Friendlies have been arranged to try and keep the players involved but it's not the same as regular competition.

[Danderhall Hibs]

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Is the European run, as impressive as it is, and little other games enough for their development? Or would they develop more playing a seasons worth of first team football? Genuine questions, as I don’t know the answers.

My worry is that there’s an element of vanity in having a team doing well in Europe rather than it being the best option for their development this season.

It’s a far point. They’ve not gone on loan to basically play 4 games in Europe .

[B.H.F.C]

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Very good points.

I'm pretty sure Hibs had hoped for far more fixtures, the Reserve League has been a flop.

Friendlies have been arranged to try and keep the players involved but it's not the same as regular competition.

If/when they are knocked out of Europe I think I’m right in saying lower league clubs can still take players on loan after the window closes.

Has to be questions about how much closer these lads are to the first team than they were at the start of the season though.

[Greenbeard]

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It’s a far point. They’ve not gone on loan to basically play 4 games in Europe .

I suspect that if you canvassed the players a significant majority would be in favour of staying together as a team in Europe for as long as possible instead of going on loan to a club down the pyramid. It's a UEFA Champions League. Very little chance of any of them getting the opportunity to do that at first team level. What an experience for them.
Carpe Diem. (And no, he's not the latest development team signing from Europe!)

[The dalmeny]

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It’s a far point. They’ve not gone on loan to basically play 4 games in Europe .

Is this a hibs decision?

[scoopyboy]

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If/when they are knocked out of Europe I think I’m right in saying lower league clubs can still take players on loan after the window closes.

Has to be questions about how much closer these lads are to the first team than they were at the start of the season though.

I've not seen enough of them to answer that but I think it's fair to say Ethan Laidlaw is coming on leaps and bounds.

Guys like Brooster who have seen lots of games this season would be in a better place than me to comment.

[Smartie]

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I’d disagree. I’ve put up the study before that showed the number of debuts given and minutes player from 2009 - 2019 for homegrown players. We compared badly, particularly in minutes played, with Rangers, Celtc, Hearts, Aberdeen & Dundee Utd. I wouldn’t have thought since 2019 we’d fare any better.

Yes there’s not anyone we’ve let go that we’ve really regretted without going back to Booth, Wotherspoon & maybe Sean Welsh who went on to have solid careers. My gripe is how many players have we brought in to simply make up the numbers and at times play players out of position rather than use them. Off the top of my head Nelom, Eckersley, Eardley, Big Dave, Darnell Johnson, Nathan Wood, Bojang etc etc. That’s not even including players we signed who have simply offered nothing McKirdy, Tavares, Melkerson etc. We should be padding our squad out with our own youngsters and putting the money we spend on the type of signings mentioned above (Nelom etc) on a stronger starting 11.

I remember Darren Dods first getting a run in the Hibs first team and looking totally out of his depth. Looked like he would never make it. For some reason he seemed to keep getting opportunities and eventually he adapted and looked ok. His wasn't the most glittering career but it was a long one and one that involved a lot of games at the top level in Scotland. He hugely benefitted from having a number of opportunities to learn and adapt.

Would the golden generation have achieved what they did if they hadn't been at Hibs at a time when we were getting rid of all our high earners and they were pitched into the first team, having to play every week, learn and adapt? I don't think they would.

Josh Campbell looks much more suited to our level now than he did a year ago.


These examples just make me wonder about the number of players we've had at critical stages in their development and not given opportunities to, arguably correctly because we maybe had better options at the time, but who were maybe deprived of the opportunity at that critical stage? How differently might things have worked out for them if a senior player had an inopportune injury and the manager had no option other than to throw the youngster in for a dozen games in a row?

And how many of those we might have now, or have over the next few years?

I think it was Paul Merson's book I read where he highlights how he got his chance at Arsenal and mentions how much luck has to play in getting an opportunity and then how hard you have to work and again, enjoy a bit of luck, in order to stay there.

[Danderhall Hibs]

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I suspect that if you canvassed the players a significant majority would be in favour of staying together as a team in Europe for as long as possible instead of going on loan to a club down the pyramid. It's a UEFA Champions League. Very little chance of any of them getting the opportunity to do that at first team level. What an experience for them.
Carpe Diem. (And no, he's not the latest development team signing from Europe!)

They’d be silly to complain about a non generous contract though given they’ve effectively lost 6 months (and counting) of development at a crucial, if not the most crucial, stage of their career.

[The dalmeny]

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7237311[/URL]]I suspect that if you canvassed the players a significant majority would be in favour of staying together as a team in Europe for as long as possible instead of going on loan to a club down the pyramid. It's a UEFA Champions League. Very little chance of any of them getting the opportunity to do that at first team level. What an experience for them.
Carpe Diem. (And no, he's not the latest development team signing from Europe!)

they would train together during the week bar a day they went to their loan club and play as a team in the reserve league or bounce fixtures then be in their loan team squad at the weekend. Hardly split up.

[CL0762]

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If/when they are knocked out of Europe I think I’m right in saying lower league clubs can still take players on loan after the window closes.

Has to be questions about how much closer these lads are to the first team than they were at the start of the season though.

Alongside Ethan Laidlaw and Josh O’Connor, Connor was one of the strikers that did well last season, and his departure allows those two to have a clearer pathway towards the First Team.

“We’re really excited about the potential that Ethan and Josh have. Ethan was away with Scotland’s Under-17s this summer for the Euros, and Josh made a cameo appearance for the First Team last season away at Aberdeen. They’re both pacey strikers that love to get in-behind defences and cause opposition players problems.

“We received a very good amount for Connor, alongside his sell-on, and that allows us to give more opportunities to Ethan and Josh. We have a strong belief that if they can continue their upward trajectory, they have every chance to be First Team players in the future.”

Steve Kean’s words when Connor Young was sold to Rangers.

There has been absolutely zero pathway towards the first team. Ethan was part of first team squads 2 years ago when we were going for 3rd, yet can’t make a squad when we’ve been toiling? He was making squads when we had Nisbet, Doidge & Boyle firing on all cylinders.

I’m not for a moment advocating either Josh or Ethan should be in the squads, but from what I’ve seen of them, we wouldn’t have been any worse off by even including them in the squad and getting maybe 5/10 mins here and there to give them a taste for it.

[McD]

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they would train together during the week bar a day they went to their loan club and play as a team in the reserve league or bounce fixtures then be in their loan team squad at the weekend. Hardly split up.

no one has mentioned splitting up as an issue. If they went on loan, they wouldn’t be able to play in the European games that they earned by winning the league last year.

[The dalmeny]

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no one has mentioned splitting up as an issue. If they went on loan, they wouldn’t be able to play in the European games that they earned by winning the league last year.

How, is this a uefa rule, I didn't see a response when I queried this earlier. Maybe I missed it .

[Unseen work]

Laidlaw only turned 18 two weeks ago.

Still very young with loads of development and growing to do.

Is it fair chucking him into a side that’s struggling and when fans are
Impatient?

We’ve seen/heard of loads of young players coming through over the years like Byrne, Ross Campbell etc they were scoring but looked miles off it in the first team.

I think Johnson would quite happily play a young player if he thought he was ready, I also think he’s the type that would understand that fans would love seeing it and might gain him credit.

Let’s get Laidlaw and the other lads tied down on contracts and drip feed them into the first team. Will they go anywhere else and get a game at this age? I doubt it.

[Slim Shady]

This season has been a disaster for youth players bar the Euro run.

Our young players who are knocking on the door of being involved in the first have had very little match time. There is no competitive fixtures for them to compete In and they’ve not been allowed to head out on loan. Some of them see it as a wasted year.

Hibs are the only team In SPL not to have played a 16/17/18 year old this season.

I’d rather see laidlaws / Macintyre’s come in and make mistakes and develop into a first team regular than watch the likes of Henderson pussy foot about getting pushed off the ball and misplace passes all day.

[HIBS NUTS]

The young players don’t have to start games, but i think most fans would rather see a cameo appearance for the last 10 minutes from these players, than some of the incumbents on our bench this season.
Especially a forward, he’s gone but what did Bojang offer that laidlaw couldn’t.

[SaulGoodman]

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Especially a forward, he’s gone but what did Bojang offer that laidlaw couldn’t.

Set his head on fire and walk about with his mini Bojang out.

[Greenbeard]

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They’d be silly to complain about a non generous contract though given they’ve effectively lost 6 months (and counting) of development at a crucial, if not the most crucial, stage of their career.

I'd argue that the experience they have gained from their five (and counting) ties in Europe does as much for their development as playing for Edinburgh City or Stirling Albion.

[HIBS NUTS]

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Set his head on fire and walk about with his mini Bojang out.

Port seaton is a wild and crazy place, they need no encouragement down there. 😄

[The dalmeny]

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I'd argue that the experience they have gained from their five (and counting) ties in Europe does as much for their development as playing for Edinburgh City or Stirling Albion.

How? they are playing with and against other youths

[Greenbeard]

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How? they are playing with and against other youths

A young player's overall development is not just about what happens on the pitch for 90 mins.

[scoopyboy]

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How? they are playing with and against other youths

Not when they are playing in friendlies / development games.