SNP are lying b******s as well !

[James310]

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Why not?

All the ones you're posting are forecasts.

So it was, so you think a pro Indy and SNP front is going to be impartial? Here is a bit from their website.

"We are dedicated supporters of Scottish independence as a means to deliver our goals, setting Scotland on a more inclusive, greener, confident, more equal and economically successful path."

Its the equivalent of me posting the Daily Express or Scotland in Union links, would you accept them as non biased and take then seriously? Not in a million years.

[ronaldo7]

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So it was, so you think a pro Indy and SNP front is going to be impartial? Here is a bit from their website.

"We are dedicated supporters of Scottish independence as a means to deliver our goals, setting Scotland on a more inclusive, greener, confident, more equal and economically successful path."

Its the equivalent of me posting the Daily Express or Scotland in Union links, would you accept them as non biased and take then seriously? Not in a million years.

They're giving an alternative view on how we run our country.

I thought you'd at least take time to read it first.

[James310]

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They're giving an alternative view on how we run our country.

I thought you'd at least take time to read it first.

So that was it then, nothing else?

[Stairway 2 7]

Scotland will obviously be worse off initially. The pound will also tank and we will be tied to it, so things will certainly start worse than they are now. But I believe we will be better in the long run, especially in Europe

[ronaldo7]

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So that was it then, nothing else?

They're all forecasts, and Im willing to accept that it will be difficult to start with, but, forecasts are telling us that the UK is in for a dire decade as it is. That's after 12 years of austerity.

The only area which your government has succeeded in is the rise of food banks.

We can do better than that.

[James310]

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They're all forecasts, and Im willing to accept that it will be difficult to start with, but, forecasts are telling us that the UK is in for a dire decade as it is. That's after 12 years of austerity.

The only area which your government has succeeded in is the rise of food banks.

We can do better than that.

If I posted a link from the These Islands website you would put some laughing emoji's and say is that from dog food salesman Kevin Hauge.

Yet you want people to take seriously Business for Scotland a pro Indy and SNP front which was set up by one man who actually lost tens of thousands of pounds in a failed business as an alternative view?

You would and have in the past immediately dismissed These Islands articles and analysis even although it's not actually on forecasts but actual facts, but expect to post articles from Scotland for Business articles and Gordon MacIntyre Kemp as credible sources.

I can post some links for you from These Islands for an alternative view and all that?

[WeeRussell]

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It was the report in the paper that said it was remarkable not me. We were talking about people being entrenched and not many being swayed, I was pointing out that the reliance on younger people may not be the sure thing it's made out to be, that's all.

I know it was the article that used “remarkable”.. I was questioning the use of the word, hence the rest of my post.

I did think given you posted it that maybe you agreed there was something remarkable, or at least quite relevant, though.

[James310]

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I know it was the article that used “remarkable”.. I was questioning the use of the word, hence the rest of my post.

I did think given you posted it that maybe you agreed there was something remarkable, or at least quite relevant, though.

Ok, I just thought it was interesting that's all.

[WeeRussell]

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You are just odd. Can't you put me on ignore, your silly little jokes are tiresome. Can't you just stick to the topics on the thread.

Apologies if I’ve missed something but wasn’t MY’s little gag just a harmless one relating to the Lurpack chat on the brexit thread, and nothing to do with you?

Of course if you don’t like any of his posts full stop, you can stick him on ignore.. but the other way round isn’t going to stop you seeing ones that weren’t aimed at you. Again, if I’ve missed something then ignore that and please accept my apologies.

Given the title of this thread, I’d suggest things are already way off topic before someone makes a harmless wee one-liner 😁

[The Tubs]

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I am sure it would go up, but there is no evidence to suggest that would happen. I don't think there is a single credible piece of analysis anywhere that's suggests after Independence we would be better off. But feel free to present some?

While I doubt the validity of quantitative economic predictions, is there any credible forecast that says Brexit isn't going to mean an even greater relative decline for the UK compared with the EU average?

There may be some difficulty initially with independence, but Scotland can escape the UK's fate and would more likely than not converge economically with well-off EU nations.

[James310]

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While I doubt the validity of quantitative economic predictions, is there any credible forecast that says Brexit isn't going to mean an even greater relative decline for the UK compared with the EU average?

There may be some difficulty initially with independence, but Scotland can escape the UK's fate and would more likely than not converge economically with well-off EU nations.

I think pretty much all the analysis shows Brexit is and was a terrible mistake from a financial and economic perspective. That's what happens when you stick up barrier with your biggest trading partners.

When there is no credible analysis that shows Independence wouldn't be a similar mistake that should worry people, but like the Brexiteers the analysis is largely dismissed and it's Project Fear or expert A is biased etc.

As for the EU then I think we already talked about that, with the deficit in Scotland it's very likely signing up to the excessive debt procedure, which is massive austerity.

But like Brexit for some the hit might be worth it to get rid of Brussels/Westminster.

[ronaldo7]

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If I posted a link from the These Islands website you would put some laughing emoji's and say is that from dog food salesman Kevin Hauge.

Yet you want people to take seriously Business for Scotland a pro Indy and SNP front which was set up by one man who actually lost tens of thousands of pounds in a failed business as an alternative view?

You would and have in the past immediately dismissed These Islands articles and analysis even although it's not actually on forecasts but actual facts, but expect to post articles from Scotland for Business articles and Gordon MacIntyre Kemp as credible sources.

I can post some links for you from These Islands for an alternative view and all that?

Oh James.

When did you become the arbiter of what's posted on the forum? I didn't know the rules had changed.

You've no idea what I'd post unless you've some mystic powers. Get the numbers on the lottery tonight.

I'll leave it there. You obviously have a block when it comes to alternative views on how Scotland could prosper.

[The Modfather]

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I think pretty much all the analysis shows Brexit is and was a terrible mistake from a financial and economic perspective. That's what happens when you stick up barrier with your biggest trading partners.

When there is no credible analysis that shows Independence wouldn't be a similar mistake that should worry people, but like the Brexiteers the analysis is largely dismissed and it's Project Fear or expert A is biased etc.

As for the EU then I think we already talked about that, with the deficit in Scotland it's very likely signing up to the excessive debt procedure, which is massive austerity.

But like Brexit for some the hit might be worth it to get rid of Brussels/Westminster.

Putting independence to one side, it would be good to constructively look into the bit in bold given it’s happening in the here and now. What’s our way forward from the position we’re in today? What can be done to make the best out of Brexit? Is there a slightly different path Holyrood could take to Westminster that might be a better fit for Scotland in making the best of Brexit than the path Westminster takes?

[James310]

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Oh James.

When did you become the arbiter of what's posted on the forum? I didn't know the rules had changed.

You've no idea what I'd post unless you've some mystic powers. Get the numbers on the lottery tonight.

I'll leave it there. You obviously have a block when it comes to alternative views on how Scotland could prosper.

I had no idea no but looks like I was right, but happy to look at anything else you have that isn't
from a pro Indy SNP front for an alternative view.

But probably best we leave there though as you suggest.

I have some stuff down the shops that might help you. 🤣

[Ozyhibby]

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I think pretty much all the analysis shows Brexit is and was a terrible mistake from a financial and economic perspective. That's what happens when you stick up barrier with your biggest trading partners.

When there is no credible analysis that shows Independence wouldn't be a similar mistake that should worry people, but like the Brexiteers the analysis is largely dismissed and it's Project Fear or expert A is biased etc.

As for the EU then I think we already talked about that, with the deficit in Scotland it's very likely signing up to the excessive debt procedure, which is massive austerity.

But like Brexit for some the hit might be worth it to get rid of Brussels/Westminster.

The rUK are only our largest trading partner because of the way our economy is built just now, with everything focussed on the south of England. If you look at Ireland, only 11% of their trade is with the UK. They trade more with the US than with the UK.
Most importantly, they trade more than Scotland full stop. They are leaving us standing.


So yes, there may be a period of transition but then it looks like we are in for a long period of decline with Brexit anyway.


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[McSwanky]

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The rUK are only our largest trading partner because of the way our economy is built just now, with everything focussed on the south of England. If you look at Ireland, only 11% of their trade is with the UK. They trade more with the US than with the UK.
Most importantly, they trade more than Scotland full stop. They are leaving us standing.


So yes, there may be a period of transition but then it looks like we are in for a long period of decline with Brexit anyway.


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Ireland do, however, import more from the UK than any other country. I think the land border is more of a consideration on the 'mainland' as well as England is so much bigger than NI.

[HNA11]

It's totally ridiculous that after posting a similar warning only yesterday I am having to do this again. However it seems the gentle approach simply isn't working with some posters.

To be clear any posts hounding other posters, attempting to mock or goad them when they aren't actively engaged in a conversation and repeatedly aiming the same jibes at them over and over again is not acceptable. It's even worse when there is a pack mentality to these actions. whether it is coordinated or not is neither here nor there, multiple posters engaging in a pile on is akin to bullying and has never and will never be acceptable on here.

If debates can't be carried out in a civil manner then threads will be closed. We are primarily a football forum yet a disproportionate amount of admin time is spent monitoring and policing this non football forum, often dealing with posters who rarely use the site for it's primary purpose of discussing Hibs and football.

To repeat what was said yesterday. Anyone engaging in any of the behaviours describe above will get no more friendly warnings on threads. The infraction system will be used and nothing, up to and including bans, is off the table. We are all adults here so try and act like it.

Thank you.

[grunt]

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What’s our way forward from the position we’re in today? What can be done to make the best out of Brexit?

Simple: Scottish Independence > Rejoin

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What can be done to make the best out of Brexit?

This is the same mistake that Starmer is making. We need to acknowledge that Brexit was a howlingly stupid mistake, built on lies and bigotry. There is no "best" Brexit, only rejoin.

This is possibly a discussion for that other thread.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Putting independence to one side, it would be good to constructively look into the bit in bold given it’s happening in the here and now. What’s our way forward from the position we’re in today? What can be done to make the best out of Brexit? Is there a slightly different path Holyrood could take to Westminster that might be a better fit for Scotland in making the best of Brexit than the path Westminster takes?

If you mean under the present devolved arrangements, then no there isn't. Or at least, there isn't without Westminster (and depending on what it is, the EU) agreeing to it. The UK Internal Market bill has been passed specifically to stop Scotland being able to do anything different under its current devolved powers.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Simple: Scottish Independence > Rejoin

This is the same mistake that Starmer is making. We need to acknowledge that Brexit was a howlingly stupid mistake, built on lies and bigotry. There is no "best" Brexit, only rejoin.

This is possibly a discussion for that other thread.

I agree. But I'm not so sure the EU, having been through the rupture, will accept the UK back quickly.

[JeMeSouviens]

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The rUK are only our largest trading partner because of the way our economy is built just now, with everything focussed on the south of England. If you look at Ireland, only 11% of their trade is with the UK. They trade more with the US than with the UK.
Most importantly, they trade more than Scotland full stop. They are leaving us standing.

So yes, there may be a period of transition but then it looks like we are in for a long period of decline with Brexit anyway.


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There is a fundamental difference between Brexit and Indy from a trade perspective and it's pretty juvenile to draw a reductive comparison between them.

Brexit cuts the UK off from its local integrated market into an isolated position, albeit with potential to pursue hypothetical trade deals with a number of geographically far off markets we currently have no alignment with.

Indy cuts Scotland off from its local integrated market but offers immediate re-entry to a much larger local market that we currently have perfect alignment with.

Yes, the transition will be painful but there is a large tangible reward available as shown by the performance of similar sized neighbouring northern european countries.

[The Modfather]

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If you mean under the present devolved arrangements, then no there isn't. Or at least, there isn't without Westminster (and depending on what it is, the EU) agreeing to it. The UK Internal Market bill has been passed specifically to stop Scotland being able to do anything different under its current devolved powers.

Yes, under the devolved powers. It’s easy to pick holes in independence but offer nothing in return as to the way forward if it’s not independence. Is it simply a straight choice between an as yet to be defined vision of independence or accept the here and now post Brexit landscape is what is we would be saying no to independence for.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Yes, under the devolved powers. It’s easy to pick holes in independence but offer nothing in return as to the way forward if it’s not independence. Is it simply a straight choice between an as yet to be defined vision of independence or accept the here and now post Brexit landscape is what is we would be saying no to independence for.

Well, take a N Ireland scenario. The EU doesn't like that arrangement because it threatens the integrity of the single market (the UK->NI->RoI route is a potential backdoor for non-EU standards compliant stuff) but they are willing to put up with it because of EU member state Ireland's position re peace and all-Ireland trade. The UK doesn't like it ostensibly because the Unionists are kicking up a racket but a cynic might say they also want to close off the direct comparison which is showing the NI ecomony thriving vs GB!

To get such a scenario for devolved Scotland requires massive amounts of goodwill, political capital and focus from both the UK and EU. I think we can safely call it a "long shot".

[BroxburnHibee]

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Simple: Scottish Independence > Rejoin

This is the same mistake that Starmer is making. We need to acknowledge that Brexit was a howlingly stupid mistake, built on lies and bigotry. There is no "best" Brexit, only rejoin.

This is possibly a discussion for that other thread.

You're right it's maybe better on the other thread but just wanted to say I listened to the excellent 'Oh God What Now' podcast yesterday (formerly Remaniacs) and they explained pretty clearly why Starmer can't just make Labour a 'Rejoin' party immediately.

He needs to win the red wall seats back first it's that simple. Once in power then the process of convincing the electorate of EU benefits can start again.

[degenerated]

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The rUK are only our largest trading partner because of the way our economy is built just now, with everything focussed on the south of England. If you look at Ireland, only 11% of their trade is with the UK. They trade more with the US than with the UK.
Most importantly, they trade more than Scotland full stop. They are leaving us standing.


So yes, there may be a period of transition but then it looks like we are in for a long period of decline with Brexit anyway.


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The other thing I don't think we understand is how much of the trade counted between Scotland And UK is final mile distribution as opposed to produce directly from that country.

I'm not entirely sure, but wouldn't be surprised, if a lot of what are termed exports from Scotland to UK are things that are for onward distribution out-with the UK and vice versa.

I can't say I have ever seen the country of origin noted in relation to this, although I may be wrong.

[Moulin Yarns]

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The other thing I don't think we understand is how much of the trade counted between Scotland And UK is final mile distribution as opposed to produce directly from that country.

I'm not entirely sure, but wouldn't be surprised, if a lot of what are termed exports from Scotland to UK are things that are for onward distribution out-with the UK and vice versa.

I can't say I have ever seen the country of origin noted in relation to this, although I may be wrong.

That's a good point. Goods, such as whisky, going to EU will pass through England without duty being paid until exported and will count as a rUK export.

[degenerated]

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That's a good point. Goods, such as whisky, going to EU will pass through England without duty being paid until exported and will count as a rUK export.

On the flip side for example wine imported into the UK from France by a distributor in England and then sold on to businesses in Scotland, does that count towards trade from UK to Scotland.

In that instance it's trade that is forced via that route because of the lack of ports in Scotland rather than a need to do that trade with UK.

[Moulin Yarns]

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On the flip side for example wine imported into the UK from France by a distributor in England and then sold on to businesses in Scotland, does that count towards trade from UK to Scotland.

In that instance it's trade that is forced via that route because of the lack of ports in Scotland rather than a need to do that trade with UK.

Interesting that Forth Ports own Tilbury Dock on the Thames.

Some interesting figures here.


https://www.forthports.co.uk/forth-ports-group/


Rosyth and grangemouth have huge potential for direct export and import with EU.

[grunt]

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You're right it's maybe better on the other thread but just wanted to say I listened to the excellent 'Oh God What Now' podcast yesterday (formerly Remaniacs) and they explained pretty clearly why Starmer can't just make Labour a 'Rejoin' party immediately.

He needs to win the red wall seats back first it's that simple. Once in power then the process of convincing the electorate of EU benefits can start again.

Thanks for the reply. Last post from me on this subject in this thread. I understand why Labour is taking this approach, I just wish politicians could show more honesty. This "tell them something they want to hear and then explain later why they can't have it" is duplicitous. Politicians should explain to the electorate why they can't get what they think they want, and why they are wrong to think they want it in the first place. Otherwise we treat the electorate as infants, keeping the truth from them to avoid upsetting them.

[Hibrandenburg]

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You're right it's maybe better on the other thread but just wanted to say I listened to the excellent 'Oh God What Now' podcast yesterday (formerly Remaniacs) and they explained pretty clearly why Starmer can't just make Labour a 'Rejoin' party immediately.

He needs to win the red wall seats back first it's that simple. Once in power then the process of convincing the electorate of EU benefits can start again.

By that time the negatives of Brexit will have already done that for him.