SNP are lying b******s as well !

[Kato]

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Do you not loath the Tories ? If you do is in not reasonable to assume your posts are unbalanced and you are a hypocrite too ?

When discussing politics is it not better to be a bit cold hearted?

I don't like any party and find most good politicians a bit boring, which is as it should be.

When it comes to loathing personalities Thatcher is as far as it goes for me. Deliberately set about destroying whole communities in every city of the country when there was no need and took pleasure doing so. A real psychopath.

The rest aren't worth hating or loathing. Disgusted by their policies and beliefs sure but getting full of hatred for swathes of people or people just because they are in a particular party is bad for your own health.

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[Stairway 2 7]

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When discussing politics is it not better to be a bit cold hearted?

I don't like any party and find most good politicians a bit boring, which is as it should be.

When it comes to loathing personalities Thatcher is as far as it goes for me. Deliberately set about destroying whole communities in every city of the country when there was no need and took pleasure doing so. A real psychopath.

The rest aren't worth hating or loathing. Disgusted by their policies and beliefs sure but getting full of hatred for swathes of people or people just because they are in a particular party is bad for your own health.

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Agree with all that. Hate Thatcher and much more hate isn't good for you, but I'm verging on loathing a few of the current tory cabinet.

Probably easier for me to be critical because I don't support the snp, although vote for them as a means for independence. Although I'm biased towards hibs mind, however that has been stretched this season

[He's here!]

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How can you plead guilty get a custodial sentence and then just change your mind? I assume that's allowed but sounds bizarre.

Explanation for the two trials provided here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61478216

[greenginger]

What is it with the SNP and keeping information secret.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-fife-61472258

changing to private financing for the new sick kids hospital and not telling the Lothian Health board who were managing the project caused all sorts of problems .
The two adjoining hospitals could not share the same heating system and were not even allowed to form a doorway to link the buildings are amongst the problems caused.

[ronaldo7]

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What is it with the SNP and keeping information secret.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-fife-61472258

changing to private financing for the new sick kids hospital and not telling the Lothian Health board who were managing the project caused all sorts of problems .
The two adjoining hospitals could not share the same heating system and were not even allowed to form a doorway to link the buildings are amongst the problems caused.

We're not telling you.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/holland_t...26183348879360

"Nicola Sturgeon says Ukraine strengthens case for independent Scotland in nato"

Guess we're going to be a nuclear power

[Jack]

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https://mobile.twitter.com/holland_t...26183348879360

"Nicola Sturgeon says Ukraine strengthens case for independent Scotland in nato"

Guess we're going to be a nuclear power

I don't see why an independent Scotland should be a nuclear power.

1, many/most NATO countries do not have nuclear weapons. Some, by agreement, have USA weapons within their borders, and

2, I'm not entirely convinced any country is allowed to join the nuclear weapon club. Countries are actively discouraged from becoming nuclear weapon capable.

Ukraine, as a former part of the Soviet Block, was an example of where Scotland is now. The USSR had nuclear weapons within Ukraine which were given up when they became independent. Ukraine became nuclear free.

[Since90+2]

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I don't see why an independent Scotland should be a nuclear power.

1, many/most NATO countries do not have nuclear weapons. Some, by agreement, have USA weapons within their borders, and

2, I'm not entirely convinced any country is allowed to join the nuclear weapon club. Countries are actively discouraged from becoming nuclear weapon capable.

Ukraine, as a former part of the Soviet Block, was an example of where Scotland is now. The USSR had nuclear weapons within Ukraine which were given up when they became independent. Ukraine became nuclear free.

Is it not the case that NATO has a first strike policy in the use of Nuclear Weapons and any country signing up to membership is aware of that?

[James310]

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Is it not the case that NATO has a first strike policy in the use of Nuclear Weapons and any country signing up to membership is aware of that?

I think so, the SNP also want to sign and ratify the treaty on the prohibition of nuclear weapons, which no other NATO member has done.

Obviously the article below is written from someone who is opposed to Independence but it highlights some oddities in the SNP position.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp...ferry-opinion/

[Stairway 2 7]

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I don't see why an independent Scotland should be a nuclear power.

1, many/most NATO countries do not have nuclear weapons. Some, by agreement, have USA weapons within their borders, and

2, I'm not entirely convinced any country is allowed to join the nuclear weapon club. Countries are actively discouraged from becoming nuclear weapon capable.

Ukraine, as a former part of the Soviet Block, was an example of where Scotland is now. The USSR had nuclear weapons within Ukraine which were given up when they became independent. Ukraine became nuclear free.

The point isn't about Scotland having nuclear weapons themselves. This is different its about joining a nuclear alliance.

[Ozyhibby]

It’s official SNP policy that an independent Scotland will join NATO. There won’t be any opposition to that from Labour or the Tories. Should we become independent then it’s an absolute done deal.


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[Stairway 2 7]

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It’s official SNP policy that an independent Scotland will join NATO. There won’t be any opposition to that from Labour or the Tories. Should we become independent then it’s an absolute done deal.


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As I said on another thread, no bad thing. Wee Scotland will be a member of the world most powerful military alliance.

[Jack]

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The point isn't about Scotland having nuclear weapons themselves. This is different its about joining a nuclear alliance.

That seemed to be exactly the point you were making in the post I quoted.

[Stairway 2 7]

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That seemed to be exactly the point you were making in the post I quoted.

We will be a part of nato a nuclear power and have to agree to their use if needed. There's plenty of nato nations without weapons themselves that's pretty obvious.

Being anti nuke but joining nato is counter intuitive though, snp won't be going forward though I'd doubt anyway

[Aldo]

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We will be a part of nato a nuclear power and have to agree to their use if needed. There's plenty of nato nations without weapons themselves that's pretty obvious.

Being anti nuke but joining nato is counter intuitive though, snp won't be going forward though I'd doubt anyway

That’s all good and well however what happens to the 20 odd thousand jobs associated with Faslane when NS and co decides they don’t Trident/Nuclear Submarines in Scotland?

I remember the outcry from them when the then government decided to move the refit to Devonport from Rosyth!

This of course will be dependant on Independence!


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[ronaldo7]

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That’s all good and well however what happens to the 20 odd thousand jobs associated with Faslane when NS and co decides they don’t Trident/Nuclear Submarines in Scotland?

I remember the outcry from them when the then government decided to move the refit to Devonport from Rosyth!

This of course will be dependant on Independence!


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Where do you get these numbers from?

[Aldo]

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Where do you get these numbers from?

Sorry that should have been 10000. Sausage fingers

Should read before I post!


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[ronaldo7]

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Sorry that should have been 10000. Sausage fingers

Should read before I post!


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It's not even that high according to questions asked of James Heappey from Deirdre Brock.

This report direct from Mr Heappey says it's 6,000(which includes RN personnel), some of which would stay in place in an Independent Scotland.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/new-...r-6000-people/

Some of them don't even pay tax here.

[Just Alf]

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That’s all good and well however what happens to the 20 odd thousand jobs associated with Faslane when NS and co decides they don’t Trident/Nuclear Submarines in Scotland?

I remember the outcry from them when the then government decided to move the refit to Devonport from Rosyth!

This of course will be dependant on Independence!


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I'm sure I read that if the SNP were in government in an iScotland, Faslane was intended to be the base of the Scottish fleet.

Which would, in theory, be 8 - 10% of the current UK Navy.... so a tug boat .... seriously though, it seemed the intention as well was to use 'some' of the money not spent on Trident to obtain/build more surface vessels in addition to patrol the North sea etc. At the time the employment level was estimated to reduce then rise back to a similar level but the really high% of seasonal/fixed term contract workers would be drastically reduced in favour of more permanent roles instead.

Lot of water under the bridge since I read that.... and .. well.... ships/boats seem to have been a problem for the SNP recently!

[Ozyhibby]

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I'm sure I read that if the SNP were in government in an iScotland, Faslane was intended to be the base of the Scottish fleet.

Which would, in theory, be 8 - 10% of the current UK Navy.... so a tug boat .... seriously though, it seemed the intention as well was to use 'some' of the money not spent on Trident to obtain/build more surface vessels in addition to patrol the North sea etc. At the time the employment level was estimated to reduce then rise back to a similar level but the really high% of seasonal/fixed term contract workers would be drastically reduced in favour of more permanent roles instead.

Lot of water under the bridge since I read that.... and .. well.... ships/boats seem to have been a problem for the SNP recently!

I would think on becoming independent that keeping the sub base in Scotland will be accepted as a price worth paying. Leasing it to the rUK and possibly the US would be lucrative for the new state and would ensure that we become a crucial member of NATO (how could we not given our geography).
The small military we have would likely be focussed on Naval power anyway.


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[James310]

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It's not even that high according to questions asked of James Heappey from Deirdre Brock.

This report direct from Mr Heappey says it's 6,000(which includes RN personnel), some of which would stay in place in an Independent Scotland.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/new-...r-6000-people/

Some of them don't even pay tax here.

That's direct employment, those jobs and people will support other jobs in the community.

[ronaldo7]

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That's direct employment, those jobs and people will support other jobs in the community.

Just as they will in an Independent Scotland. See Alf's post above.

[Just Alf]

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I would think on becoming independent that keeping the sub base in Scotland will be accepted as a price worth paying. Leasing it to the rUK and possibly the US would be lucrative for the new state and would ensure that we become a crucial member of NATO (how could we not given our geography).
The small military we have would likely be focussed on Naval power anyway.


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I think that's how it would pan out as well, which then begs the question as to where the new base for the Scottish fleet would be located... a beefed up Rosyth?

[The_Exile]

I sincerely doubt the SNP would be anywhere near power in an independent Scotland anyway so it's all moot really as different parties will have their own ideas on what happens with Faslane or NATO etc. I reckon like me, a large number of folk will be lending them their vote for the independence mandate and then after that's achieved we will all likely vote for other parties.

This is all on the condition that the under 40's begin to find their voice and the energy to bother going to a voting booth by then of course. One can but hope I suppose!

[Ozyhibby]

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I sincerely doubt the SNP would be anywhere near power in an independent Scotland anyway so it's all moot really as different parties will have their own ideas on what happens with Faslane or NATO etc. I reckon like me, a large number of folk will be lending them their vote for the independence mandate and then after that's achieved we will all likely vote for other parties.

This is all on the condition that the under 40's begin to find their voice and the energy to bother going to a voting booth by then of course. One can but hope I suppose!

Not to mention removing it would take 25+ years. Gives us plenty time to weigh up our options.


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[Jack]

I just wonder what benefit to the economy local and national Faslane actually contributes?

It's a large naval base miles from anywhere. No matter how many thousands people are on the base much of what they need will be on the base; shops, supermarkets, pubs etc. It's not as if they can nip off site in the same way as Portsmouth or Plymouth.

Most of these people will have no emotional investment in the area. I would imagine the RN personnel and families will see it as a punishment rather than somewhere they'll eventually put down roots. Most of the others working there will be contractors from all over the UK who will go wherever the next best contract is.

It's not as if they build the submarines or missiles there. There's no big supporting industries round about that would be decimated if Faslane closed.

So aye, there's plenty spent on base, both in terms of people and equipment, but precious little makes it out the gate.

[James310]

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I just wonder what benefit to the economy local and national Faslane actually contributes?

It's a large naval base miles from anywhere. No matter how many thousands people are on the base much of what they need will be on the base; shops, supermarkets, pubs etc. It's not as if they can nip off site in the same way as Portsmouth or Plymouth.

Most of these people will have no emotional investment in the area. I would imagine the RN personnel and families will see it as a punishment rather than somewhere they'll eventually put down roots. Most of the others working there will be contractors from all over the UK who will go wherever the next best contract is.

It's not as if they build the submarines or missiles there. There's no big supporting industries round about that would be decimated if Faslane closed.

So aye, there's plenty spent on base, both in terms of people and equipment, but precious little makes it out the gate.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/fact...epend-faslane/


"The number of jobs directly and indirectly supported by Faslane is just under 11,000; this comes from the 6,500 military and civilian personnel employed at HMNB Clyde and a further 4,000 created through the supply chain and the local economy according to an EKOS report commissioned by Scottish Enterprise Dunbartonshire"

Although supply chain jobs could of course be outside Scotland so it's hard to tell exactly.

[Jack]

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https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/fact...epend-faslane/


"The number of jobs directly and indirectly supported by Faslane is just under 11,000; this comes from the 6,500 military and civilian personnel employed at HMNB Clyde and a further 4,000 created through the supply chain and the local economy according to an EKOS report commissioned by Scottish Enterprise Dunbartonshire"

Although supply chain jobs could of course be outside Scotland so it's hard to tell exactly.

I understand there's lots of people involved and the investment probably runs into the billions. But ...

Even just looking at Google Earth Faslane is a secure facility, fenced off from the local community - not really a surprise. The nearest town in Helensburgh, just over 5 miles away, has a population of 15,000. There are probably some work at Faslane but I doubt it's the biggest employer in the area for those not on the base, if you know what I mean.

As I said previously I just can't see Faslane being such a big deal for the local community never mind making a financial difference anywhere further afield.

[ronaldo7]

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https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/fact...epend-faslane/


"The number of jobs directly and indirectly supported by Faslane is just under 11,000; this comes from the 6,500 military and civilian personnel employed at HMNB Clyde and a further 4,000 created through the supply chain and the local economy according to an EKOS report commissioned by Scottish Enterprise Dunbartonshire"

Although supply chain jobs could of course be outside Scotland so it's hard to tell exactly.

2014 we were promised an increase to 12,500 service personnel in Scotland. Fast forward to 2022 we now have under 10,000.

West Dunbartonshire MP, Martin Docherty-Hughes.

https://twitter.com/MartinJDocherty/...42857243795457

[James310]

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2014 we were promised an increase to 12,500 service personnel in Scotland. Fast forward to 2022 we now have under 10,000.

West Dunbartonshire MP, Martin Docherty-Hughes.

https://twitter.com/MartinJDocherty/...42857243795457

All governments will promise jobs that ultimately they won't deliver. I think John Swinney told us a while back the offshore wind industry would create about 28,000 jobs. The actual figure was about 1,700.