The Trans Rights Debate

[danhibees1875]

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It's because with sports it's the clear physical advantage. No one would mind if there wasn't an advantage so wouldn't mind if female to male competed. The same with changing rooms as I doubt many men would feel physically threatened by a female to male being in the changing room.

If either were as big a topic then they would get discussed accordingly.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.healthline.com/health/fi...letes-to-watch

Worth a read as it looks at trans sports people.

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-righ...etes-debunked/


An American perspective on the 'harm' to cis women in sports.

[Stairway 2 7]

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https://www.healthline.com/health/fi...letes-to-watch

Worth a read as it looks at trans sports people.

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-righ...etes-debunked/


An American perspective on the 'harm' to cis women in sports.

What a one-sided and absolute nonsense piece the second one is. Trans athletes technically aren't always better than women is the argument. Genetic differences sometimes doesn't make up for form pish. There an obvious physical advantage and people shouldn't act stupid about it. The fact most trans athletes go from being mediocre males to top women tells its own story. If you think trans women should be able to fight in boxing and mma against biological women I'd go further and say you were sick.

[500miles]

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https://www.healthline.com/health/fi...letes-to-watch

Worth a read as it looks at trans sports people.

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-righ...etes-debunked/


An American perspective on the 'harm' to cis women in sports.

Both poor articles, the second one borderline propagandistic in it's presentation.

[Moulin Yarns]

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What a one-sided and absolute nonsense piece the second one is. Trans athletes technically aren't always better than women is the argument. Genetic differences sometimes doesn't make up for form pish. There an obvious physical advantage and people shouldn't act stupid about it. The fact most trans athletes go from being mediocre males to top women tells its own story. If you think trans women should be able to fight in boxing and mma against biological women I'd go further and say you were sick.

Why then have I seen on this thread the argument that boys outperform Olympic female athletes?

[Stairway 2 7]

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Why then have I seen on this thread the argument that boys outperform Olympic female athletes?

I'm lost? They do it was a fact from the US boys final. Even by 17 and 18 a boy can outperform the best women, it's just physical difference. Muscle shape, bone density, skeletal shape

[LewysGot2]

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Nobody seems to be able to look at the issue of female to male transgender people, it's always about how do women feel about their space being infiltrated by 'people with a *****'.

Absolutely. Trans men and trans women both compete in female sport. That says something in itself. Trans women are allowed testosterone levels which, if female competitors were to have, they would be banned. That said, it’s about way more than testosterone levels as women are not just small men with lower testosterone levels. It’s muscle bulk potential, bone density, lung capacity and hip width - male swimmers are more streamlined because they have narrower hips. Then there’s the impact of menstrual cycles, pregnancy and childbirth on careers, ability to train properly every week of the year and having to make choices between children and competing. Martin Boyle and his wife face very different challenges through their careers.
There’s lots of campaigning for Female category and an Open category. As it stands the open category is actually the female one and the Male category is not.

Equal opportunities mean we need to have categories to encourage equal access to fair competition and to encourage participation in under represented groups. Having situations where 40 something old trans women qualify for the Olympics in the female category isn’t going to achieve that. And it's never going to be an issue the other way round

The toilets thing is a different issue and recently has seen some places' toilets becoming effectively unisex and male including the new Costa at the top of Easter Road until there was uproar about it. Biological women are disadvantaged toilet wise in the sense that urinals allow a greater number of biological males to use their mens facilities quicker and in a different manner via urinals. Note the queues always at concerts, sports events etc for the ladies v the gents. There’s going to be a decrease in capacity for venues if everything had to be cubicles and unisex. Imagine Easter Road with gender neutral loos. Consider who is going to be impacted…kids, women are going to feel less able to use the loos given the nature of how the gents loos are used at football. And so likely wiould many males. Not that long ago Easter Road only had one female loo in a portacabin at the back of the East. Even then it was invaded by males pissing in sinks. My daughter was delighted when we finally got proper facilities for females and finally felt actually able to safely use the loos at the football when the ground was redeveloped . I used to feel really bad for her prior to that.

[Paul1642]

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Nobody seems to be able to look at the issue of female to male transgender people, it's always about how do women feel about their space being infiltrated by 'people with a *****'.

I’m not really sure what point you are trying to make? Male to female can have a huge physical advantage over females in a way that does not apply the other direction?

Also females are more likely to be weary of men than the other way around and should be able to use changing rooms and toilets with only those born female if they so wish.

[Moulin Yarns]

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I’m not really sure what point you are trying to make? Male to female can have a huge physical advantage over females in a way that does not apply the other direction?

Also females are more likely to be weary of men than the other way around and should be able to use changing rooms and toilets with only those born female if they so wish.

Why should it always be about sports?

What proportion of transsexuals are sports persons?


That's just a distraction from the needs of the genuine trans people in this country and the world generally.

[147lothian]

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I'm lost with this one

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/olym...?ocid=msedgntp

Controversial swimmer beaten by fellow transgender athlete in first meet since sparking outrage

Controversial swimmer Lia Thomas was crushed by fellow transgender athlete Iszac Henig in front of stunned onlookers in an Ivy League women's swim meet in the US.

Thomas, a*swimmer*at the University of Pennsylvania who transitioned from male to female in recent years, garnered attention when she smashed two US women's records in the 200m and 500m freestyle disciplines last year.

Making her return to competition over the weekend, Thomas took part in four races during an Ivy League meeting against rivals Dartmouth and Hale, and won her first two, but was beaten in her second two by Henig, who is currently transitioning from female to male.

Thomas finished fifth in the 100-yard freestyle in a time of 52.84 seconds, while Henig was over three seconds faster at 49.57 seconds.

Lia Thomas was a mediocre swimmer ranked 462 in the male category. Lia Thomas then transitions enters the female category and smashes the 200m and 500m free style disciplines, beating three American silver medalists. It has to be the end of female sport if a person with bollocks can identify as a female and enter into female sport.

I have a live and let live attitude, I believe that trans rights should be protected. I would agree totally with an open category that trans people can enter, but female sport should be a protected category for biological females only, a person who goes through puberty as a male should not be allowed to enter the female category, I can see sporty females thinking what is the point of trying to be the best I can be if a mediocre male can identify as woman and smash female records.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Just an honest question here: has anyone on here ever met, or does anyone know, a transgender person? I haven't. This issue seems to get attention that far outweighs its influence in society.

Does anyone know how many transgender people there are in the UK?

[CropleyWasGod]

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Just an honest question here: has anyone on here ever met, or does anyone know, a transgender person? I haven't. This issue seems to get attention that far outweighs its influence in society.

Does anyone know how many transgender people there are in the UK?

I know quite a few, through work and personally. I have almost certainly met others, without knowing.

I suspect that the latter will be true for most people.

[Hibernia&Alba]

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I know quite a few, through work and personally. I have almost certainly met others, without knowing.

I suspect that the latter will be true for most people.

It could be I've met some without realising it, true. I am suspicious of those in the media who keep hammering away at this issue. The focus upon it seems out of proportion to the number of people affected, which I fear leaves a small and vulnerable group wide open to being mis-represented and suffering public prejudice, like other very small groups, such as travellers. All public debates on the issue I have heard have been dominated by cynical ignorance and 'common sense' i.e. the lowest common denominator.

[Ozyhibby]

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Why should it always be about sports?

What proportion of transsexuals are sports persons?


That's just a distraction from the needs of the genuine trans people in this country and the world generally.

Sports probably comes up a lot because that’s the only area of life where some people don’t think they can have the same rights. Every other area of life I’m all for trans people doing what ever makes them happy.


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[He's here!]

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Just an honest question here: has anyone on here ever met, or does anyone know, a transgender person? I haven't. This issue seems to get attention that far outweighs its influence in society.

Does anyone know how many transgender people there are in the UK?

Yes, one of my friend's kids is transgender. It's been interesting to witness their journey. I also worked with an older transgender woman years ago, before the issue became the hot potato is has now. Charming colleague who, incidentally, would never have tried to argue that biological sex is irrelevant.

I don't agree that the issue's influence on society is minimal, but it IS a minimal number of people who have blown things way out of proportion by trying to merge the rights of women and trans people together. All it has done is spark an increasingly toxic debate and unnecessarily fuel suspicion of trans people. Claims at the weekend by Lorna Slater of the Greens (Harvie's sidekick) that those expressing concerns for women's rights are somehow 'racist' certainly don't help, but then I always feel she comes across as a bit glaikit.

[CropleyWasGod]

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It could be I've met some without realising it, true. I am suspicious of those in the media who keep hammering away at this issue. The focus upon it seems out of proportion to the number of people affected, which I fear leaves a small and vulnerable group wide open to being mis-represented and suffering public prejudice, like other very small groups, such as travellers. All public debates on the issue I have heard have been dominated by cynical ignorance and 'common sense' i.e. the lowest common denominator.

As has been said a few times, there are so many echoes of the LGB "debates" of the 70's and 80's, but this time ramped up by social media. The latter, for me, fuels so much of the toxicity that HH mentioned.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Kudos to Emily Thornberry, exactly my point: stop trying to exploit these people for personal gain and personal agendas.

[500miles]

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Kudos to Emily Thornberry, exactly my point: stop trying to exploit these people for personal gain and personal agendas.

"Born in the wrong body"

That's leaning towards the idea of a soul, and that sort of pseudo religious patter is when I start to get upset. I don't want prayer in schools and I certainly don't want legislation based on the idea that we exist beyond the our physical bodies, because that's really dangerous. We could extend that to the idea that unborn children have souls, and therefore we have another garbage arguement about abortion.

[CropleyWasGod]

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"Born in the wrong body"

That's leaning towards the idea of a soul, and that sort of pseudo religious patter is when I start to get upset. I don't want prayer in schools and I certainly don't want legislation based on the idea that we exist beyond the our physical bodies, because that's really dangerous. We could extend that to the idea that unborn children have souls, and therefore we have another garbage arguement about abortion.

It's also a sound bite, the type of which doesn't help a complicated,emotive and nuanced debate.

[Hibernia&Alba]

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It's also a sound bite, the type of which doesn't help a complicated,emotive and nuanced debate.

She isn't a clinician nor a psychologist, and perhaps "born in the wrong body" is a poor description (I don't know) but it's an issue many people, myself included, have little to no expertise on. It's difficult to understand the idea of feeling one is the wrong gender. As I said previously, it's certainly beyond my understanding, and I would guess many people feel the same. Emily Thornberry makes a very good point that some sections of the media and politics are taking advantage of public fear surrounding an unusual issue for their own benefit, playing upon ignorance. Transgender people are the latest pawns in the 'culture wars' agenda, and Emily is asking for compassion and the avoidance of lashing out at something a lot of folk might find frightening. It's the humane approach.

[500miles]

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She isn't a clinician nor a psychologist, and perhaps "born in the wrong body" is a poor description (I don't know) but it's an issue many people, myself included, have little to no expertise on. It's difficult to understand the idea of feeling one is the wrong gender. As I said previously, it's certainly beyond my understanding, and I would guess many people feel the same. Emily Thornberry makes a very good point that some sections of the media and politics are taking advantage of public fear surrounding an unusual issue for their own benefit, playing upon ignorance. Transgender people are the latest pawns in the 'culture wars' agenda, and Emily is asking for compassion and the avoidance of lashing out at something a lot of folk might find frightening. It's the humane approach.

Many people feel like they can talk to God through prayer - we don't take that literally, nor do we enshrine it legally.

You're right of course when it comes to the culture war. This is low hanging fruit for the far right when they want to appear "reasonable". That's why I wish the left weren't so entrenched in slogans and soundbites like Thornberry's or "Trans Women are Women." All it takes is an acknowledgement of nuance or to clarify that nobody is seeking to blur the lines between sex and gender, and a that "reasonable" position loses power.

[superfurryhibby]

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Just an honest question here: has anyone on here ever met, or does anyone know, a transgender person? I haven't. This issue seems to get attention that far outweighs its influence in society.

Does anyone know how many transgender people there are in the UK?

Yes, my cousin’s offspring has gone down the full surgical route. She is now he/him.

[Hibernia&Alba]

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Yes, my cousin’s offspring has gone down the full surgical route. She is now he/him.

How long was the process in total? How did the family react initially?

[LewysGot2]

Will be interesting to see if the proposed custodial sentence being spoken about in court today is imposed where this individual is going to be housed - judge seemingly ow looking into a suspended sentence


https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/12/ex-soldier-exposed-her-*****-and-used-wheelie-bin-as-sex-toy-in-public-16454386/amp/


Filters for the site here is causing the link not to work. The word asterisked out is a male organ.

[147lothian]

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Yes, one of my friend's kids is transgender. It's been interesting to witness their journey. I also worked with an older transgender woman years ago, before the issue became the hot potato is has now. Charming colleague who, incidentally, would never have tried to argue that biological sex is irrelevant.

I don't agree that the issue's influence on society is minimal, but it IS a minimal number of people who have blown things way out of proportion by trying to merge the rights of women and trans people together. All it has done is spark an increasingly toxic debate and unnecessarily fuel suspicion of trans people. Claims at the weekend by Lorna Slater of the Greens (Harvie's sidekick) that those expressing concerns for women's rights are somehow 'racist' certainly don't help, but then I always feel she comes across as a bit glaikit.

I tend to agree with this, I would imagine that for most transgender people if there is no such thing as biological sex there is no such thing as transgender. I would imagine that most transgender woman know that they are not biological woman they are men who choose to identify as woman. For me there is a big difference between transgender people who just want to get on with their lives and the gender extremists who argue that trans woman should be included in the female lesbian dating pool, and that a lesbian who refuses to date a transwoman is a TERF, a transphobe and a racist etc etc

For me the reason the gender extremists get so nasty towards feminists is because they know that their arguments don't stand up to scrutiny this is why they resort to closing down debate and name calling.

The logical end point of the slogan transwoman are woman are summed up in this article where a man who identifies as a woman and is attracted to women goes for a shower and exposes his ***** in the female changing room, this is what progress looks like.

https://www.independentsentinel.com/...he-locker-room

[Stairway 2 7]

😆 lesbian sex can have consequences these days 👶

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost....er-inmate/amp/

Two inmates serving time in New Jersey’s only state prison for women became pregnant after they had sex with a transgender inmate, according to a report Wednesday.

[superfurryhibby]

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How long was the process in total? How did the family react initially?

Well he is in his 20’s and I think people just supported a person they love.

[superfurryhibby]

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Yes, one of my friend's kids is transgender. It's been interesting to witness their journey. I also worked with an older transgender woman years ago, before the issue became the hot potato is has now. Charming colleague who, incidentally, would never have tried to argue that biological sex is irrelevant.

I don't agree that the issue's influence on society is minimal, but it IS a minimal number of people who have blown things way out of proportion by trying to merge the rights of women and trans people together. All it has done is spark an increasingly toxic debate and unnecessarily fuel suspicion of trans people. Claims at the weekend by Lorna Slater of the Greens (Harvie's sidekick) that those expressing concerns for women's rights are somehow 'racist' certainly don't help, but then I always feel she comes across as a bit glaikit.

Good post.

The path this takes us down is alarming to me. Thought police, hate crime, wokeism, control. The enemies of freedom of speech.

[Hibernia&Alba]

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Well he is in his 20’s and I think people just supported a person they love.

That's great to hear, it must be an enormous shock initially. It must make all the difference when family are supportive.

[LewysGot2]

Interesting and considered article in the New York Times which, although is considering things from a US perspective where things are different to Western Europe in many ways, not least religion and its influence on politics, it is worth a read. The potential for life long medicalisation of young people does need considered as part of the bigger picture.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/13/o...?smid=tw-share