The Trans Rights Debate

[500miles]

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I get confused easily. Is intersex also a fact?

Intersex is indeed a fact but

1.intersex conditions- like Turner's syndrome and Klinefelter syndrome, still occur within a sex binary. You don't get females with Klinefelter's or Males with Turner's syndrome.

2. Intersex people aren't trans people. They exist with definable and measurable conditions.

I think trans people should be allowed to compete in sport, but that the men's competition should be defined as "open", thus preventing unfair sex based advantages, because it is male sexual development which grants that advantage.

[lord bunberry]

I don’t envy the sporting bodies that have to make a ruling on this, whatever they come up with will cause outrage. Imo if one athlete has an unfair advantage over another then it shouldn’t be allowed. Sport should give every competitor a chance to make it to the top, if one competitor is at a level that others can’t physically reach then it’s not fair. I’m sure someone will now come and tell me why I’m wrong, but that’s why I think it’s an impossible decision.

[superfurryhibby]

Here's a link to an article criticising the current director of Edinburgh Rape Crisis. The person concerned is a man who self -identifies as a woman. It's an unbelievable situation and is probably a microcosm of the whole debate. Who's rights prevail? My own view is simplistic. If you have a boaby then when it comes down to fundamentals, you're a man. In terms of safe spaces for women who have been subject to sexual assault, I'm happy to accept a female only environment is vital. Self identification is not enough.

https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/...crisis-centre/

"Mridul Wadhwa, a man who passes as a woman but who does not have a Gender Recognition Certificate and is understood not to have undergone reassignment surgery, is of the opinion that a rape survivor who seeks help from Rape Crisis Edinburgh and asks to be examined by a woman doctor rather than a trans doctor is a bigot and needs re-educating to help her get over the trauma of rape.

Wadhwa, a former SNP parliamentary candidate, left the party after MSPs overwhelmingly backed an amendment to allow survivors of rape and sexual violence to ask for biological women rather than trans women to examine and counsel them. Wadhwa is of the opinion that women who want genuine safe spaces for traumatised women have ‘unacceptable beliefs’, and tells them ‘You have to rethink your relationship with prejudice’.

[He's here!]

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Here's a link to an article criticising the current director of Edinburgh Rape Crisis. The person concerned is a man who self -identifies as a woman. It's an unbelievable situation and is probably a microcosm of the whole debate. Who's rights prevail? My own view is simplistic. If you have a boaby then when it comes down to fundamentals, you're a man. In terms of safe spaces for women who have been subject to sexual assault, I'm happy to accept a female only environment is vital. Self identification is not enough.

https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/...crisis-centre/

"Mridul Wadhwa, a man who passes as a woman but who does not have a Gender Recognition Certificate and is understood not to have undergone reassignment surgery, is of the opinion that a rape survivor who seeks help from Rape Crisis Edinburgh and asks to be examined by a woman doctor rather than a trans doctor is a bigot and needs re-educating to help her get over the trauma of rape.

Wadhwa, a former SNP parliamentary candidate, left the party after MSPs overwhelmingly backed an amendment to allow survivors of rape and sexual violence to ask for biological women rather than trans women to examine and counsel them. Wadhwa is of the opinion that women who want genuine safe spaces for traumatised women have ‘unacceptable beliefs’, and tells them ‘You have to rethink your relationship with prejudice’.

The trans rights mantra that 'a transwoman is a woman' does not stand up to any sort of serious scrutiny. It means that anyone who says they are a woman is a woman, full stop. Biology is irrelevant because gender trumps sex and it is therefore not necessary for a transwoman to have reassignment surgery. Basically, if some women have a p***s so be it.

Taken to extremes, there have even been accusations that those men who would not consider dating a 'woman' with a p***s are transphobic - ditto for women who wouldn't include 'men' with a vagina among their dating pool:

http://www.cambridgeblog.org/2019/06...-trans-person/

[superfurryhibby]

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The trans rights mantra that 'a transwoman is a woman' does not stand up to any sort of serious scrutiny. It means that anyone who says they are a woman is a woman, full stop. Biology is irrelevant because gender trumps sex and it is therefore not necessary for a transwoman to have reassignment surgery. Basically, if some women have a p***s so be it.

Taken to extremes, there have even been accusations that those men who would not consider dating a 'woman' with a p***s are transphobic - ditto for women who wouldn't include 'men' with a vagina among their dating pool:

http://www.cambridgeblog.org/2019/06...-trans-person/

I am just blown away that anyone with a ***** could be appointed to a leadership role in a service like Edinburgh Rape Crisis, never mind the fact that they then use their influence to try and undermine the concept of single gender safe spaces for female victims of sexual abuse. It's an abhorrent situation

[Moulin Yarns]

This is probably too simplistic but, if your aunt has testes then he is your uncle. Similarly if your uncle has ovaries then she is your aunt.

What is visible on the outside is of no relevance, you can't judge a book by its cover.


However, I genuinely think that some people do believe that they are in the wrong body.

[The Modfather]

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I am just blown away that anyone with a ***** could be appointed to a leadership role in a service like Edinburgh Rape Crisis, never mind the fact that they then use their influence to try and undermine the concept of single gender safe spaces for female victims of sexual abuse. It's an abhorrent situation

Assuming your word in asterisk is the male organ, why should having a male organ preclude someone from having a leadership role in a service like Edinburgh Rape Crisis?

[superfurryhibby]

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Assuming your word in asterisk is the male organ, why should having a male organ preclude someone from having a leadership role in a service like Edinburgh Rape Crisis?

It’s widely accepted that there are services exempt from equalities act and are the preserve of a single gender. Another well known one is Woman’s Aid.

Edinburgh Rape Crisis offer support to all people below the age of 18 and exclusively to women if you are over 18.

You should read the quotes in my earlier post or the article link I posted. He has an agenda which conflicts with the rights of female survivors of sexual assault. Personally, I think calling women bigoted and in need of education if they want a female doctor after being attacked or saying that single gendered safe space for victims of sexual assault reflects “ unacceptable beliefs”....I think that is enough to preclude someone from the leadership role he occupies.

He can gender self identify all he wants, but when that self identification creates conflict in a very public way, around such an emotive subject, then you have to question why and what is right.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I am just blown away that anyone with a ***** could be appointed to a leadership role in a service like Edinburgh Rape Crisis, never mind the fact that they then use their influence to try and undermine the concept of single gender safe spaces for female victims of sexual abuse. It's an abhorrent situation

Presumably the majority of the ERC board, all of them cis-female at first sight (although no assumptions made here), were comfortable with their appointment.

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1461101683430367238

?!

[Keith_M]

I'm not in any way a person with extreme views so I'm more than a little disturbed to read comments from people (not necessarily on here) that suggest that those that don't exactly share their point of view on things like Transgender issues are Nazis/Fascists/Bigots, etc.

As far as I'm aware, nobody has suggested putting anybody in a Concentration Camp.

I think the person that wrote that needs to consider just how offensive that comment was.

[Colr]

The well known expression “If yer maw had ba’s she’d be yer da” is somewhat meaningless in this context.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.ladbible.com/news/transg...ource=facebook

There could be a point that every record in women's events is held by someone born a male

[Hibernia&Alba]

It's such an alien issue to me, that Trans rights isn't something I can discuss with any confidence. I've never met a Trans person and I have no understanding of the psychological issue a person experiences when feeling they were born the wrong gender. It's just so outside my realm of experience. Ultimately trans people must be afforded the same rights and respect as everyone else. As said above, some basic decency and common sense can go a long way. The fact many of us struggle to understand the issue must never be an excuse for discrimination or hysterical fearmongering. Gender reassignment is a new phenomenon and over time we all learn more.

[He's here!]

Hadn't spotted this until now. Police Scotland suggesting if a rapist with male genitalia identifies as a woman the crime will be recorded ad having been committed by a woman:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/j...gers-5m9jrwv0p

I thought that by law rape could only be committed by a man?!

[Radium]

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Hadn't spotted this until now. Police Scotland suggesting if a rapist with male genitalia identifies as a woman the crime will be recorded ad having been committed by a woman:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/j...gers-5m9jrwv0p

I thought that by law rape could only be committed by a man?!

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2009/9/section/1

Rape is a statutory offence which refers to a person committing the crime, not a man/ male. Deliberately not posting the details of the offence on the thread


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[James310]

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https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2009/9/section/1

Rape is a statutory offence which refers to a person committing the crime, not a man/ male. Deliberately not posting the details of the offence on the thread


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But can only be committed by someone with a *****?

Starts with P ends with S

[danhibees1875]

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But can only be committed by someone with a *****?

Starts with P ends with S

Are they just confirming that if a woman with a ***** is the perpetrator then they'll be identified as a woman whilst being prosecuted for rape.

i.e. it doesn't matter what they identify as, they can still be charged.

Presumably knocking back any suggestions that being able to self-identity allows you to get away with certain crimes.

[Radium]

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But can only be committed by someone with a *****?

Starts with P ends with S

That’s what the legislation says.


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[Pretty Boy]

I was reading some lierature my partner was given after she had a small procedure post giving birth. After about the 5th page the references to 'persons with a cervix' and 'individuals with a womb' was almost comical.

We all know not all women have ovaries or wombs for various reasons but just refer to women FFS. That kind of thing just feeds the hysteria from people who are transphobic/extreme feminist.

[James310]

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I was reading some lierature my partner was given after she had a small procedure post giving birth. After about the 5th page the references to 'persons with a cervix' and 'individuals with a womb' was almost comical.

We all know not all women have ovaries or wombs for various reasons but just refer to women FFS. That kind of thing just feeds the hysteria from people who are transphobic/extreme feminist.

I think it was in the news recently the word "mother" has been removed from all Scottish Government produced maternity literature. Probably the same literature you have.

[Jamesie]

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I think it was in the news recently the word "mother" has been removed from all Scottish Government produced maternity literature. Probably the same literature you have.

I did find myself thinking earlier about the money spent - no doubt on consultancies and research etc - on this sort of amendment when the FM was bemoaning the lack of cash to help Scottish businesses during the pandemic.

[Moulin Yarns]

Totally at a tangent, but news reader on BBC radio Scotland Drive time referred to the former MSP Ruth Davidson as Lord Davidson. 🤔😁

[Mr Grieves]

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I think it was in the news recently the word "mother" has been removed from all Scottish Government produced maternity literature. Probably the same literature you have.

Do you need to use the word mother when talking about maternity?

[James310]

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Do you need to use the word mother when talking about maternity?

Well the word maternity means motherhood...?

[Mr Grieves]

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Well the word maternity means motherhood...?

I know, so was the word maternity used in this literature you read about?

[Keith_M]

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I was reading some lierature my partner was given after she had a small procedure post giving birth. After about the 5th page the references to 'persons with a cervix' and 'individuals with a womb' was almost comical.

We all know not all women have ovaries or wombs for various reasons but just refer to women FFS. That kind of thing just feeds the hysteria from people who are transphobic/extreme feminist.

That's just nonsense and it does no one any favours.

[He's here!]

https://www.rebelnews.com/the_guardi...omes_out_ahead

These things have a tendency to backfire...

[Ozyhibby]

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https://www.rebelnews.com/the_guardi...omes_out_ahead

These things have a tendency to backfire...

Doubt it because it’s an issue that the vast majority of people don’t care a jot about.


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[Mr Grieves]

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https://www.rebelnews.com/the_guardi...omes_out_ahead

These things have a tendency to backfire...

Do you take that website seriously? What a *****hole