Tories are still lying *******s

[Smartie]

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Let's get some reasoned debate going then.

I'm genuinely curious - are you comfortable with how the Conservative party have dealt with this issue? If so, I'm honestly interested to understand why? I have my own opinion of course but I honestly want to hear from someone who appears to be from the the other side.

I find it fairly incredible that there is another side here.

FWIW - I think the Tories might be in trouble on this matter. It’s hard to see who might support them on this one and the coverage hasn’t been favourable for them (other than in the most obvious places).

[Pretty Boy]

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I'm not sticking up for anyone, his angry posts are embarrassing and insulting to any reasoned debate. If his views were to the right you'd be on him like a pack of wolves like you tend to do on here, how he gets away with the constant abuse directed at tories and those who vote tory is beyond me.

What reasoned debate is there to be had with people who continue to defend the indefensible?

I would happily debate political ideology with someone who was right leaning. This govt has been repeatedly found to have acted in ways that are fundamentally corrupt on numerous occasions since assuming power though, yesterday they openly subverted democratic process and parliamentary standards. Yet still people defend them. There is no reasoned debate to be had with someone who doesn't condemn such actions and isn't angry about them. It screams someone who is blinded by either partisan loyalty or the cult of personality. That's not something that is exclusive to the Tories, either now or historically, but in this instance it's a phenomenon that is relevant to them.

The individuals who voted in the way they did yesterday may be part of a political machine but they have a conscience and a mind of their own. 13 MPs on the blue benches were able to defy their party and vote in a way that was honest and honourable, for that if nothing else they have my respect. The rest who slavishly followed the whip are fair game for abuse and anger. As is anyone who tries to defend them.

[neil7908]

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I find it fairly incredible that there is another side here.

FWIW - I think the Tories might be in trouble on this matter. It’s hard to see who might support them on this one and the coverage hasn’t been favourable for them (other than in the most obvious places).

RE your second paragraph I wish that was the case but I fear not. I think we have moved into a quite scary place in politics where a huge chunk of the public treat voting like supporting a football team. They chose a side and won't budge, no matter what happens. Trump is the most obvious example in the US where he seems to retain a massive level of support, no matter what he does.

Brexit has created massive fault lines, and it now seems more important on deciding issues than anything else. Another poster commented that the Tories are doing this because Patterson is a high profile Brexit proponent. A lot of his supporters are of course suggesting the opposite - he's been targeted by Remainers for the same reason.

And in terms of the press, its the same as far as I can tell - those backing the Tories are playing it down, the Guardian etc are raging.

[Northernhibee]

And now - before the ink has even dried - here comes the clanging u-turn.

Nobody is fooled.

[BroxburnHibee]

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And now - before the ink has even dried - here comes the clanging u-turn.

Nobody is fooled.

It's beyond cynical. It's so easily constructed. I'm assuming he gets off now though.

Edit. Apparently going to be another vote.

[SHODAN]

It's a classic political strategy, one we haven't seen in a while: creating an artificial "compromise". Best example I've seen is thus:
MPs: We're increasing our salaries by 50%
General public: THIS IS AN OUTRAGE
MPs: Fine, fine we'll only increase them by 45%
General public: Ah that's ok then

[Eaststand]

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It sickens me to my stomach that Tories want to portray themselves as victims. They’ve ripped up our trade agreements and freedom of movement to dodge upcoming EU rules on tax dodging and trashed our economy in doing so, they’ve pushed endless amounts of families into foodbank queues that are literally miles long (and sung “I’ve had the time of my life” whilst taking £20 a week away from them), they’ve failed to take the most serious pandemic in living memory seriously and the best part of 200k people are dead, they’ve called Muslims “bank robbers”, gay people “bum boys”, given contracts worth tens of millions to their mates who don’t even have any experience in those fields, they’ve overseen our friends and colleagues from the EU leave this country en masse, they’ve put the GFA under threat, they’ve tried to prorogue Parliament when democracy wasn’t convenient for them, they’ve decimated our NHS, they’ve lied on the side of a bus and everywhere else and now one of their own was caught pocketing a six figure sum they’ve dismantled our democracy and public standards yet again to let them get away scot free.

Then they have the temerity to whine “oh, people hate us”. Decent minded people do absolutely hate them. **** them.

Well written, and saying it just as it is.

If you ever decide to stand for public office, you'd get my vote 👍

GGTTH

[Ozyhibby]

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It's beyond cynical. It's so easily constructed. I'm assuming he gets off now though.

Edit. Apparently going to be another vote.

He’ll have to face a by-election now.


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[Smartie]

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It's a classic political strategy, one we haven't seen in a while: creating an artificial "compromise". Best example I've seen is thus:
MPs: We're increasing our salaries by 50%
General public: THIS IS AN OUTRAGE
MPs: Fine, fine we'll only increase them by 45%
General public: Ah that's ok then

Is it a strategy?

Or a symptom of a government whose leader is a dither who flips flops back and forward, changing his mind all over the place?

Whilst I think they are corrupt and you can put much of what they do down to pure malfeasance, I wouldn't underplay the role played by crass incompetence too.

[matty_f]

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Is it a strategy?

Or a symptom of a government whose leader is a dither who flips flops back and forward, changing his mind all over the place?

Whilst I think they are corrupt and you can put much of what they do down to pure malfeasance, I wouldn't underplay the role played by crass incompetence too.

I think they know exactly what they’re doing.

They don’t give a flying **** about anyone other than themselves and are quite happy to put up with a bit of flack, a token display of backtracking, and then posting on with what they wanted anyway. And they’ll continue to be happy to do it so long as there’s a majority that will vote for them. They seem absolutely immune to scandal at the moment and over the last few years.

Re being angry about it, everyone should be furious about what happened. I’ma long, long way from being an anarchist but there will be a point where folk wake up and decide that they’re not going to be shat upon anymore.

[degenerated]

A decent list of the outrageous stuff they've done

https://twitter.com/RussellEngland/s...LCRRylY3w&s=19

[ronaldo7]

SNP MP.

"There's now a debate on Monday on standards. The Gov't want 'all party talks'. We will only go to them when we return to the status quo of yesterday where breaches of rules are subject to independent investigation and we abide by the recommendations of our Standards Committee"

It shouldn't escape people's attention that Boris Johnson is currently being investigated by the Standards commissioner. Yes. the one they're trying to remove.

[grunt]

Here's a good summary of what was so wrong about yesterday's vote.

https://twitter.com/instituteforgov/...558020099?s=20

[1 8 7 5]

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What reasoned debate is there to be had with people who continue to defend the indefensible?

I would happily debate political ideology with someone who was right leaning. This govt has been repeatedly found to have acted in ways that are fundamentally corrupt on numerous occasions since assuming power though, yesterday they openly subverted democratic process and parliamentary standards. Yet still people defend them. There is no reasoned debate to be had with someone who doesn't condemn such actions and isn't angry about them. It screams someone who is blinded by either partisan loyalty or the cult of personality. That's not something that is exclusive to the Tories, either now or historically, but in this instance it's a phenomenon that is relevant to them.

The individuals who voted in the way they did yesterday may be part of a political machine but they have a conscience and a mind of their own. 13 MPs on the blue benches were able to defy their party and vote in a way that was honest and honourable, for that if nothing else they have my respect. The rest who slavishly followed the whip are fair game for abuse and anger. As is anyone who tries to defend them.

spot on lad

[lapsedhibee]

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He’ll have to face a by-election now.

Only if he gets suspended for 10 sitting days or more. If "the commons" reaches a compromise punishment between 30 days (his original suspension) and no days - let's say, as a very fair compromise, in everyone's best interests and so that everyone can move on, 9 sitting days, no by-election.

[Bostonhibby]

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What reasoned debate is there to be had with people who continue to defend the indefensible?

I would happily debate political ideology with someone who was right leaning. This govt has been repeatedly found to have acted in ways that are fundamentally corrupt on numerous occasions since assuming power though, yesterday they openly subverted democratic process and parliamentary standards. Yet still people defend them. There is no reasoned debate to be had with someone who doesn't condemn such actions and isn't angry about them. It screams someone who is blinded by either partisan loyalty or the cult of personality. That's not something that is exclusive to the Tories, either now or historically, but in this instance it's a phenomenon that is relevant to them.

The individuals who voted in the way they did yesterday may be part of a political machine but they have a conscience and a mind of their own. 13 MPs on the blue benches were able to defy their party and vote in a way that was honest and honourable, for that if nothing else they have my respect. The rest who slavishly followed the whip are fair game for abuse and anger. As is anyone who tries to defend them.

Excellent post, shouldn't underestimate the extent to which some loyalists have become entrenched and are incapable of seeing what they voted for or supported might actually result in this sort of behaviour.

I've already overheard a discussion which didn't actually address what the party in power and Paterson in particular have done here, but polarised around Corbyn being much more corrupt and taking money from unions, all of which is a panacea for what theyve actually done and saves dealing with it.

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[H18S NX]

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It sickens me to my stomach that Tories want to portray themselves as victims. They’ve ripped up our trade agreements and freedom of movement to dodge upcoming EU rules on tax dodging and trashed our economy in doing so, they’ve pushed endless amounts of families into foodbank queues that are literally miles long (and sung “I’ve had the time of my life” whilst taking £20 a week away from them), they’ve failed to take the most serious pandemic in living memory seriously and the best part of 200k people are dead, they’ve called Muslims “bank robbers”, gay people “bum boys”, given contracts worth tens of millions to their mates who don’t even have any experience in those fields, they’ve overseen our friends and colleagues from the EU leave this country en masse, they’ve put the GFA under threat, they’ve tried to prorogue Parliament when democracy wasn’t convenient for them, they’ve decimated our NHS, they’ve lied on the side of a bus and everywhere else and now one of their own was caught pocketing a six figure sum they’ve dismantled our democracy and public standards yet again to let them get away scot free.

Then they have the temerity to whine “oh, people hate us”. Decent minded people do absolutely hate them. **** them.

...Well said m8.

[One Day Soon]

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What reasoned debate is there to be had with people who continue to defend the indefensible?

I would happily debate political ideology with someone who was right leaning. This govt has been repeatedly found to have acted in ways that are fundamentally corrupt on numerous occasions since assuming power though, yesterday they openly subverted democratic process and parliamentary standards. Yet still people defend them. There is no reasoned debate to be had with someone who doesn't condemn such actions and isn't angry about them. It screams someone who is blinded by either partisan loyalty or the cult of personality. That's not something that is exclusive to the Tories, either now or historically, but in this instance it's a phenomenon that is relevant to them.

The individuals who voted in the way they did yesterday may be part of a political machine but they have a conscience and a mind of their own. 13 MPs on the blue benches were able to defy their party and vote in a way that was honest and honourable, for that if nothing else they have my respect. The rest who slavishly followed the whip are fair game for abuse and anger. As is anyone who tries to defend them.

Depressingly, we now live in an age where pretty much all politics everywhere is filtered through prisms of both extreme binary choices and cults of personality. Johnson and his Brexiteer/ERG hijackers are one of the more extreme examples.

It is interesting that they have chosen to agree to rerun yesterday's vote. It leaves me wondering exactly what pressure was successful enough to force them to reconsider. Backbenchers? Social Media? Traditional media? MPs email inboxes?

It's instructive though that they thought the previous course of action was a good idea in the first place. That speaks of enormous hubris, really appalling political misjudgement and I suspect a government and party that is now structured much more damagingly around the ego and usually misjudged whim of one man than ever previously.

As soon as Johnson demonstrated that he was prepared to oust the likes of Churchill's grandson Soames as a Conservative MP (along with many others) it looked pretty clear that the post-Brexit ideologues owned Johnson and that convention, custom and practice would all go on the bonfire whenever expedient.

[cabbageandribs1875]

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RE your second paragraph I wish that was the case but I fear not. I think we have moved into a quite scary place in politics where a huge chunk of the public treat voting like supporting a football team. They chose a side and won't budge, no matter what happens. Trump is the most obvious example in the US where he seems to retain a massive level of support, no matter what he does.

Brexit has created massive fault lines, and it now seems more important on deciding issues than anything else. Another poster commented that the Tories are doing this because Patterson is a high profile Brexit proponent. A lot of his supporters are of course suggesting the opposite - he's been targeted by Remainers for the same reason.

And in terms of the press, its the same as far as I can tell - those backing the Tories are playing it down, the Guardian etc are raging.

i know some will be quite rightly surprised but amazingly the Daily Mail headlines/articles think the same on this, i wouldn't even dream of reading a Daily Express headline though i doubt they will criticise a Tory government, no matter how blatantly corrupt.

[Glory Lurker]

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i know some will be quite rightly surprised but amazingly the Daily Mail headlines/articles think the same on this, i wouldn't even dream of reading a Daily Express headline though i doubt they will criticise a Tory government, no matter how blatantly corrupt.

Only seen the front pages but Express, Telegraph and Sun playing it right down or ignoring.

[heretoday]

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Can I just add that I know a couple Scottish Conservative voters who are life long Hibbies, actually decent people who do not live their lives like this reptile Paterson and the current version of the Nasty party do and are not enamoured with it at all.

I last discussed this all with one of them a couple of months back and he is firmly in the independence camp which he wasnt pre the last election and Brexit.

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I can remember two prominent Hibby tories from recent past- Brian Meek and John Gibson. Also Alex Fletcher a Tory MP in Edinburgh.

The thing is this is all social media stuff. When I first went to ER with my dad in 1963 the last thing we expected to be asked among the support was our political leanings!

Now football is mixed in with current affairs.

[cabbageandribs1875]

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Only seen the front pages but Express, Telegraph and Sun playing it right down or ignoring.

there's a surprise the last one doesn't really count as a newspaper really





anyway, back to paterson, i didn't realise it was him that thought a plan to cut immigration numbers was to instead put OAP's to work picking fruit, below the minimum wage of course, what a repugnant individual he is, i read last night he will do the same again,after he had been saved and before todays news, cocky little runt he is

[Hibernia&Alba]

[Smartie]

I prefer to think that political leaning has nothing whatsoever to do with supporting Hibs.

You normally get into football running around a field as a kid thinking you're Steve Archibald, Gordon Smith or Martin Boyle. Any political views tend to be formed and shaped and crystallise much, much later.

Anyone who has formed an affinity with our club shouldn't feel like that has to be severed just because they've formed certain political views.

I think it should be a strength of ours that we accept and tolerate different world views.

But then again, I am a bit liberal.

[BroxburnHibee]

And now he resigns.

Pushed I'd imagine

[cabbageandribs1875]

apparently No 10 didn't tell paterson about the u-turn, he was in a supermarket when he got a call from Lady Keunssberg of the Boris Broadcasting Company.


funny if true

this is true btw

[Hibernia&Alba]

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I prefer to think that political leaning has nothing whatsoever to do with supporting Hibs.

You normally get into football running around a field as a kid thinking you're Steve Archibald, Gordon Smith or Martin Boyle. Any political views tend to be formed and shaped and crystallise much, much later.

Anyone who has formed an affinity with our club shouldn't feel like that has to be severed just because they've formed certain political views.

I think it should be a strength of ours that we accept and tolerate different world views.

But then again, I am a bit liberal.

The only thing we shouldn't tolerate is intolerance. All who are happy to accept others on the same basis should be welcome. We don't want to be like the Old Firm, where fans are expected to hold particular political or religious beliefs, and those who do not conform are not considered real fans. The opinions of other Hibs fans unrelated to football are none of my business. I have no problem with Tories and Brexiteers supporting Hibs, even though my views are very different.

[hibsbollah]

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And now he resigns.

Pushed I'd imagine

Resigned for being caught selling influence while pathetically moaning about being ‘bullied’.
Classic Tory.

[Northernhibee]

Always. The. ****ing. Victim.

[Hibernia&Alba]

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Always. The. ****ing. Victim.

Being picked on for being caught caught taking half a million quid of bribes.