Tories are still lying *******s

[WhileTheChief..]

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£1.1 billion of the expected £12 billion raised will be given to the Scottish government. That's almost double the £660 million which (according to the Scottish government) it will cost to establish a new national care service in Scotland. Hard to see how that can be regarded as bad news.

It would have been a nice refreshing change if the the Scottish Gov just came out and said great idea this, let's crack on together and make things better!

But nah, gotta make a fight out of absolutely everything.

[One Day Soon]

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Hard to see??

More money to be paid out by those who can least afford it whilst the affluent are untouched or get a better deal. It'd be hard to find a more Tory-esque policy.

It is a disgrace. Freezing Council Tax is in the same territory. Reward the rich at the expense of the poor.

It's an utterly incoherent policy that won't fix the problem, funded by an incoherent taxation measure that isn't fair and recent polls suggest more people oppose it than support it. This is one of those that they will have thought looked like a clever ploy in the 72 hours during which it was cobbled together but which will fall apart in slow motion from here onwards.

[Ozyhibby]

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It would have been a nice refreshing change if the the Scottish Gov just came out and said great idea this, let's crack on together and make things better!

But nah, gotta make a fight out of absolutely everything.

It would have been a nice refreshing change if the UK govt had just committed straight away to distributing the money in the normal fashion.
But nah, gotta make a fight out of absolutely everything.


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[Mr Grieves]

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It would have been a nice refreshing change if the the Scottish Gov just came out and said great idea this, let's crack on together and make things better!

But nah, gotta make a fight out of absolutely everything.

It's been opposed by just about every non-tory politician in the UK precisely because it won't make things better.

[Hibernia&Alba]

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I think we should just scrap NI altogether, roll it into income tax and be done with it. Regressive and confusing.

I don't mind have a tax specifically for the NHS and pensions, but the way it works is indeed regressive and needs to be reformed. I would also scrap council tax and implement a local income tax as a fairer method, but that's another debate.

[Keith_M]

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It would have been a nice refreshing change if the the Scottish Gov just came out and said great idea this, let's crack on together and make things better!

But nah, gotta make a fight out of absolutely everything.

But what if it's not a good idea?

Disproportionately taxing the less well off doesn't sound great to most of us.

[WhileTheChief..]

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I don't mind have a tax specifically for the NHS and pensions, but the way it works is indeed regressive and needs to be reformed. I would also scrap council tax and implement a local income tax as a fairer method, but that's another debate.

Go further down the income tax route and you'll get nowhere, the wealthiest in society don't / hardly pay any.

It's wealth that the govt should be looking to tax.

[Future17]

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Go further down the income tax route and you'll get nowhere, the wealthiest in society don't / hardly pay any.

It's wealth that the govt should be looking to tax.

If that's what you believe, why do you support the Tory NI policy?

[WhileTheChief..]

I generally don't agree with tax rises but everyone is living longer meaning that health, care and pension costs are going to continue to spiral.

They've got to be paid for and NI is a fair way to do it. Well aware that most of you disagree with that bit!

I think the idea has generally been accepted by the public though.

I'm not seeing much opposition to the actual rise, just that some of you feel that it's only higher earners that should be paying it??

[Moulin Yarns]

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I generally don't agree with tax rises but everyone is living longer meaning that health, care and pension costs are going to continue to spiral.

They've got to be paid for and NI is a fair way to do it. Well aware that most of you disagree with that bit!

I think the idea has generally been accepted by the public though.

I'm not seeing much opposition to the actual rise, just that some of you feel that it's only higher earners that should be paying it??

So, say that you are a pensioner who currently doesn't pay NI but you paid all your working life. Now you will have to pay NI a second time.


How exactly is that a fair taxation??

[WhileTheChief..]

Pensioners turning 65 today are a totally different demographic to someone turning 65 in the 80s or 90s.

Baby boomers are the wealthiest generation of pensioners ever with a lot of them having inherited a property. Not something that was so common 20 or 30 years ago.

They're not all living in council housing relying on the state pension to feed or heat themselves so let's not pretend otherwise. Again, I'm aware that some are, but i'm talking generally here.

Next time you're at ER look at the folk getting out of their cars. A lot of grey haired chaps in their BMWs and Mercs etc are not your stereotypical skint pensioner!

You think a pensioner couple in their 6 bed house in Marchmont can't afford it?

They've enjoyed the triple lock on the state pension for years so a 1.5% tax shouldn't really be too much of a burden.

The way I look at it is you pay your dues throughout your working life so that you don't need to worry about being looked after when you're older.

If not through NI, what would have a been a fair way to raise the extra money?

[hibsbollah]

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Pensioners turning 65 today are a totally different demographic to someone turning 65 in the 80s or 90s.

Baby boomers are the wealthiest generation of pensioners ever with a lot of them having inherited a property. Not something that was so common 20 or 30 years ago.

They're not all living in council housing relying on the state pension to feed or heat themselves so let's not pretend otherwise. Again, I'm aware that some are, but i'm talking generally here.

Next time you're at ER look at the folk getting out of their cars. A lot of grey haired chaps in their BMWs and Mercs etc are not your stereotypical skint pensioner!

You think a pensioner couple in their 6 bed house in Marchmont can't afford it?

They've enjoyed the triple lock on the state pension for years so a 1.5% tax shouldn't really be too much of a burden.

The way I look at it is you pay your dues throughout your working life so that you don't need to worry about being looked after when you're older.

If not through NI, what would have a been a fair way to raise the extra money?

I don’t think you understand why people don’t like the increase in NI contributions. It’s definitely not because it penalises rich pensioners who live in six bedroom houses in Marchmont, that’s the people it definitely doesn’t punish

A fairer way to fund social care (assuming the £350 million a day we’re not giving to the EU anymore was actually a big lie) could include a tax on personal wealth, a tax on inheritance, a tax on property, a tax on second home, lots of alternatives.

Also, an increase from 12% to 13.25% is a 10% tax increase, it’s not a ‘1.5% tax’.

[Keith_M]

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Pensioners turning 65 today are a totally different demographic to someone turning 65 in the 80s or 90s.

Baby boomers are the wealthiest generation of pensioners ever with a lot of them having inherited a property. Not something that was so common 20 or 30 years ago.

They're not all living in council housing relying on the state pension to feed or heat themselves so let's not pretend otherwise. Again, I'm aware that some are, but i'm talking generally here.

Next time you're at ER look at the folk getting out of their cars. A lot of grey haired chaps in their BMWs and Mercs etc are not your stereotypical skint pensioner!

You think a pensioner couple in their 6 bed house in Marchmont can't afford it?

They've enjoyed the triple lock on the state pension for years so a 1.5% tax shouldn't really be too much of a burden.

The way I look at it is you pay your dues throughout your working life so that you don't need to worry about being looked after when you're older.

If not through NI, what would have a been a fair way to raise the extra money?

That's an incredibly narrow and cliché'd view of pensioners.

Do they really all live in Marchmont, with triple-locked pensions and drive Mercs or BMWs?

I'll need to speak to my Dad, as he's obviously doing it wrong living in his one bed flat in Port Seton with his old Toyota parked outside.

[Northernhibee]

In my mind, second homes - holiday homes, buy to let properties and the like should be used towards social care at 100% of their value and a percentage of first homes too.

The younger generations have been hammered by the pandemic, with zero hour contracts, ridiculous rent prices and the like and 80% wages being a toxic mix. A generation who for many will never be able to afford their own home.

The older generations have been far more likely to vote for Brexit and Tories which exacerbates the younger generations issues despite seeing what the Tory *******s have been doing to workers, youngsters, small business, immigrants and more. To now expect younger people to fund their retirement and social care when they’re already so much on the breadline is morally bankrupt when it’s already unlikely they’ll never enjoy the same benefits when they are older.

Hammering second, third homes etc rebalances the difference in the housing market, allows a large percentage of first home equity to be kept and is fairer on poorer pensioners who don’t own a home.

I realise that there is still a need for a tax rise to fund care but this shouldn’t be disproportionately unfair towards young workers who quite frankly have a bigger headache ahead of them and will have less to look forward to in their old age.

[Jack]

Well played to the torys on this!

Everyone on here and elsewhere arguing amongst themselves blaming different sections of society when we should all be concentrating on blaming the torys and only the torys for this huge tax hike.

[lapsedhibee]

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Well played to the torys on this!

Everyone on here and elsewhere arguing amongst themselves blaming different sections of society when we should all be concentrating on blaming the torys and only the torys for this huge tax hike.

Divide, divide and divide again, only pausing for breath to call the Scottish Nationalist Party divisive.

[WhileTheChief..]

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I don’t think you understand why people don’t like the increase in NI contributions. It’s definitely not because it penalises rich pensioners who live in six bedroom houses in Marchmont, that’s the people it definitely doesn’t punish

A fairer way to fund social care (assuming the £350 million a day we’re not giving to the EU anymore was actually a big lie) could include a tax on personal wealth, a tax on inheritance, a tax on property, a tax on second home, lots of alternatives.

Also, an increase from 12% to 13.25% is a 10% tax increase, it’s not a ‘1.5% tax’.

I already said it's wealth the govt should be looking to tax, not income

[WhileTheChief..]

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That's an incredibly narrow and cliché'd view of pensioners.

Do they really all live in Marchmont, with triple-locked pensions and drive Mercs or BMWs?

I'll need to speak to my Dad, as he's obviously doing it wrong living in his one bed flat in Port Seton with his old Toyota parked outside.

Maybe, but so is the view that they're all skint and using food banks. Just a bit of balance!

[Moulin Yarns]

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If not through NI, what would have a been a fair way to raise the extra money?

Higher rate income tax on earnings above £50k?

[WhileTheChief..]

Why £50k and what sort of rate are you thinking about?

It's 41% just now. I don't know enough about it but raising that to say 50%, would that make a big enough difference?

If it was that simple, why don't governments across the world do it?

[Stairway 2 7]

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Why £50k and what sort of rate are you thinking about?

It's 41% just now. I don't know enough about it but raising that to say 50%, would that make a big enough difference?

If it was that simple, why don't governments across the world do it?

Because the turkeys generally don't vote for Christmas, self preservation.

[WhileTheChief..]

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Because the turkeys generally don't vote for Christmas, self preservation.

Top rate of income tax in China is 45%.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Why £50k and what sort of rate are you thinking about?

It's 41% just now. I don't know enough about it but raising that to say 50%, would that make a big enough difference?

If it was that simple, why don't governments across the world do it?

£50k was just a figure, what is the average salary? £30k

Top rate is 41% in Scotland, 40% in England.


A balance between what they have to charge and what they would like to charge?


Personally I would rather have a system of flexibility in local income tax to fund local services and a flat rate national infrastructure. But that's a whole different debate.

[WhileTheChief..]

Let's put some numbers to it.

If I earn £12,500 today, my take-home pay is £1,012 per month. No income tax and NI of £29.

Next week i retire on the state pension of approx £9,300 and let's say I've got a small personal pension bringing my income up to the same £12,500. That's a perfectly reasonable, real life example.

As things stand, my take home income is now £1,042 as I don't pay NI as a pensioner.

Under the new rules I'll pay the £29 plus the little bit extra that's been announced, bringing me back down to the level i was on while working.

Is it really that bad?

[Jack]

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Let's put some numbers to it.

If I earn £12,500 today, my take-home pay is £1,012 per month. No income tax and NI of £29.

Next week i retire on the state pension of approx £9,300 and let's say I've got a small personal pension bringing my income up to the same £12,500. That's a perfectly reasonable, real life example.

As things stand, my take home income is now £1,042 as I don't pay NI as a pensioner.

Under the new rules I'll pay the £29 plus the little bit extra that's been announced, bringing me back down to the level i was on while working.

Is it really that bad?

If anyone wants to do their own calculations.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/tax-calculator/

[hibsbollah]

…there’s also a universal credit benefit cut of £20 a week coming in very soon, in case anyone forgot.

[Kato]

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…there’s a universal credit benefit cut of £20 a week coming in very soon, in case anyone forgot.

....and probable inflation once the food shortages start to really kick-in post the next layer of Brexit restrictions.

[WhileTheChief..]

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If anyone wants to do their own calculations.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/tax-calculator/

Gives the same results as I posted

[ronaldo7]

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That's an incredibly narrow and cliché'd view of pensioners.

Do they really all live in Marchmont, with triple-locked pensions and drive Mercs or BMWs?

I'll need to speak to my Dad, as he's obviously doing it wrong living in his one bed flat in Port Seton with his old Toyota parked outside.

All those pensioners with their fancy cars. 😂

[Andy Bee]

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Let's put some numbers to it.

If I earn £12,500 today, my take-home pay is £1,012 per month. No income tax and NI of £29.

Next week i retire on the state pension of approx £9,300 and let's say I've got a small personal pension bringing my income up to the same £12,500. That's a perfectly reasonable, real life example.

As things stand, my take home income is now £1,042 as I don't pay NI as a pensioner.

Under the new rules I'll pay the £29 plus the little bit extra that's been announced, bringing me back down to the level i was on while working.

Is it really that bad?

If you earn £12500 today you're likely to be receiving Universal Credit, that Universal Credit is about to be cut by £1000 a year when the uplift is stopped and your NI contributions are about to rise by 1.25%. Using the previously mentioned figure of £50k you're paying the 1.25% increase but only paying 2% NI over approx £50k so the percentage of income lost is more from the person on £12500, how's that fair?