Euro 2021 non-Scotland games

[He's here!]

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You didn't actually read my post, did you?

I did and I respect your views. I should have stated that my response wasn't directed at you personally. It was more of a general point about Scotland fans and English commentators and the way I think many tend to hide behind the 'it's not the players, it's the commentators' thing, when it fact they should just admit they want to see England stuffed.

Re your more specific point though, I personally don't think my experience of watching, say, Ukraine v Sweden, would have been especially enhanced by a Scottish commentary team. I don't see the big deal about what nationality the commentators are to be honest and as I've said before I often turn the commentary off during football games. Not because I have an issue with English commentators but because by and large I don't see the need for commentary full stop. The majority of the time they are simply telling me which player is on the ball and what they're doing with it - something I can see plainly for myself.

[McSwanky]

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I did and I respect your views. I should have stated that my response wasn't directed at you personally. It was more of a general point about Scotland fans and English commentators and the way I think many tend to hide behind the 'it's not the players, it's the commentators' thing, when it fact they should just admit they want to see England stuffed.

Re your more specific point though, I personally don't think my experience of watching, say, Ukraine v Sweden, would have been especially enhanced by a Scottish commentary team. I don't see the big deal about what nationality the commentators are to be honest and as I've said before I often turn the commentary off during football games. Not because I have an issue with English commentators but because by and large I don't see the need for commentary full stop. The majority of the time they are simply telling me which player is on the ball and what they're doing with it - something I can see plainly for myself.

You're missing my point. I don't think you're doing it on purpose, but you are missing it.

I'm not demanding a Scottish commentary team or Scottish production in general, I'm trying to illustrate that the ABE 'movement' or whatever you want to call it is at the very least stoked, and possibly even caused by the England-centric TV coverage.

Continuing with last night as an example, we were treated to Jonathan Pearce regaling us with a story about Jimmy Greaves not being picked in 1966, Martin Keown seemingly having a lovely time when players were getting injured/sent off because England are up next, and I would guess at least half of the half time 'analysis' concentrating on England rather the game that I tuned in to watch. Freddie must have been loving it. So I'd say my enjoyment was impacted, yes.

I'm not English, I don't live in England. I'd go so far as to say I usually start competitions off pretty indifferent to England as a footballing nation, but by the time the hype reaches fever pitch and they eventually go out (or maybe even win the thing one day) I've absolutely had enough and want them out.

Did you read my Denmark comparison above? Doesn't that sound ridiculous when there's two different countries involved..... oh, wait a minute!

To say 'switch off the commentary if you don't like it' isn't really the answer for me as the rise and fall of the commentator's voice is part of the experience of watching on telly - it all gets a bit boring for me without it.

I'm far from a rabid ABE type, and I consider myself quite a reasonable person in general, but this really gets my goat.

[He's here!]

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You're missing my point. I don't think you're doing it on purpose, but you are missing it.

I'm not demanding a Scottish commentary team or Scottish production in general, I'm trying to illustrate that the ABE 'movement' or whatever you want to call it is at the very least stoked, and possibly even caused by the England-centric TV coverage.

Continuing with last night as an example, we were treated to Jonathan Pearce regaling us with a story about Jimmy Greaves not being picked in 1966, Martin Keown seemingly having a lovely time when players were getting injured/sent off because England are up next, and I would guess at least half of the half time 'analysis' concentrating on England rather the game that I tuned in to watch. Freddie must have been loving it. So I'd say my enjoyment was impacted, yes.

I'm not English, I don't live in England. I'd go so far as to say I usually start competitions off pretty indifferent to England as a footballing nation, but by the time the hype reaches fever pitch and they eventually go out (or maybe even win the thing one day) I've absolutely had enough and want them out.

Did you read my Denmark comparison above? Doesn't that sound ridiculous when there's two different countries involved..... oh, wait a minute!

To say 'switch off the commentary if you don't like it' isn't really the answer for me as the rise and fall of the commentator's voice is part of the experience of watching on telly - it all gets a bit boring for me without it.

I'm far from a rabid ABE type, and I consider myself quite a reasonable person in general, but this really gets my goat.

Yep, I understand what you're saying and as I said I respect your opinion. I just don't find that this particular issue bothers me much. I guess it also depends how strongly you perceive England as 'another country'. In my view, the Denmark/Germany comparison isn't really comparing like for like when it comes to Scotland and England. Yes, we have separate football teams but we're not two completely independent countries like Denmark and Germany are. You might disagree, but were Scotland the only UK team left in the competition I think any English commentators covering our games would be pretty full-on in their desire for Scotland to win. Different sport I know, but (while you might get the odd bampot spewing some anti-Scottish vitriol about him on social media) Andy Murray's rise to become not only Britain's greatest tennis player but one of the best in the world has been wholeheartedly embraced by largely English commentary teams.

[Bristolhibby]

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Yep, I understand what you're saying and as I said I respect your opinion. I just don't find that this particular issue bothers me much. I guess it also depends how strongly you perceive England as 'another country'. In my view, the Denmark/Germany comparison isn't really comparing like for like when it comes to Scotland and England. Yes, we have separate football teams but we're not two completely independent countries like Denmark and Germany are. You might disagree, but were Scotland the only UK team left in the competition I think any English commentators covering our games would be pretty full-on in their desire for Scotland to win. Different sport I know, but (while you might get the odd bampot spewing some anti-Scottish vitriol about him on social media) Andy Murray's rise to become not only Britain's greatest tennis player but one of the best in the world has been wholeheartedly embraced by largely English commentary teams.

If Scotland were the only U.K. team left, no danger would Gary Lineker or Rio Ferdinand be jumping around celebrating us scoring a goal v Germany. Simply won’t happen.

We’d be luck to even have two Scottish pundits to go with Gary. Likely have Roy Keane, Graham Souness and Juergen Klinsman.

That’s the point. It should be a Scottish lead production serving Scots in that situation.

J

[Tommy75]

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If Scotland were the only U.K. team left, no danger would Gary Lineker or Rio Ferdinand be jumping around celebrating us scoring a goal v Germany. Simply won’t happen.

We’d be luck to even have two Scottish pundits to go with Gary. Likely have Roy Keane, Graham Souness and Juergen Klinsman.

That’s the point. It should be a Scottish lead production serving Scots in that situation.

J

If Scotland were the only team left then I am sure Scottish pundits would be jumping around if they scored against Germany.

There was a Scottish-only line up on STV for the England V Scotland game was there not?

[He's here!]

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If Scotland were the only U.K. team left, no danger would Gary Lineker or Rio Ferdinand be jumping around celebrating us scoring a goal v Germany. Simply won’t happen.

We’d be luck to even have two Scottish pundits to go with Gary. Likely have Roy Keane, Graham Souness and Juergen Klinsman.

That’s the point. It should be a Scottish lead production serving Scots in that situation.

J

I'm sure Souness, Hansen, McCoist plus any other Scottish pundits involved on whatever channel they were working for would be jumping around though. In fact, there's footage of the Scottish pundits all doing just that when we qualified via the Nations League against Serbia.

What is actually WRONG with Lineker & co celebrating in the studio? I don't really begrudge them that after 55 years of tournament pain v Germany!

And surely if Scotland WERE in such a position we WOULD have Scottish-led option for the game, just as we did for our group games?

[JeMeSouviens]

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I'm sure Souness, Hansen, McCoist plus any other Scottish pundits involved on whatever channel they were working for would be jumping around though. In fact, there's footage of the Scottish pundits all doing just that when we qualified via the Nations League against Serbia.

What is actually WRONG with the Lineker & co celebrating in the studio? I don't really begrudge them that after 55 years of tournament pain v Germany!

And surely if Scotland WERE in such a position we WOULD have Scottish-led option for the game, just as we did for our group games?

In Scotland, yes, but not UK wide. There's nothing wrong with English commentary/punditry for England. It's a bit odd that we have it in Scotland but (at the risk of veering non-football ) that's what we voted for.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

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In Scotland, yes, but not UK wide. There's nothing wrong with English commentary/punditry for England. It's a bit odd that we have it in Scotland but (at the risk of veering non-football ) that's what we voted for.

Exactly, an English audience would never tolerate a Scottish (or any other nation) led coverage on their TV.

[DH1875]

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I'm sure Souness, Hansen, McCoist plus any other Scottish pundits involved on whatever channel they were working for would be jumping around though. In fact, there's footage of the Scottish pundits all doing just that when we qualified via the Nations League against Serbia.

What is actually WRONG with the Lineker & co celebrating in the studio? I don't really begrudge them that after 55 years of tournament pain v Germany!

And surely if Scotland WERE in such a position we WOULD have Scottish-led option for the game, just as we did for our group games?

There Is absolutely nothing wrong with Lineker and Co doing it when England are playing. When Sweden and Ukraine are playing, I don't need to hear it though. That's is the difference.

[He's here!]

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There Is absolutely nothing wrong with Lineker and Co doing it when England are playing. When Sweden and Ukraine are playing, I don't need to hear it though. That's is the difference.

Again, I'm not sure there would be much difference if Scotland had beaten Germany yesterday and were the only Home Nations team left. In those (admittedly unlikely) circumstances would we take such exception to an English commentator saying things like a Ukrainian injury could be good news for Scotland, or indeed referencing Scotland's great win over Germany earlier that day? I suspect a Scottish commentary team would be making just the same sort of observations.

[McSwanky]

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Yep, I understand what you're saying and as I said I respect your opinion. I just don't find that this particular issue bothers me much. I guess it also depends how strongly you perceive England as 'another country'. In my view, the Denmark/Germany comparison isn't really comparing like for like when it comes to Scotland and England. Yes, we have separate football teams but we're not two completely independent countries like Denmark and Germany are. You might disagree, but were Scotland the only UK team left in the competition I think any English commentators covering our games would be pretty full-on in their desire for Scotland to win. Different sport I know, but (while you might get the odd bampot spewing some anti-Scottish vitriol about him on social media) Andy Murray's rise to become not only Britain's greatest tennis player but one of the best in the world has been wholeheartedly embraced by largely English commentary teams.

Last points from me, as I've done this to death now!

1. In footballing terms, England are absolutely a different country to Scotland. Given the history, and the fact that we share a border, I'd suggest that it's even more marked than the Denmark/Germany analogy as there is already an established 'rivalry' there. Making the fact that we get 'English' (British) coverage even more bizarre.
2. I'm not quite following your Andy Murray logic. His is an individual sport first and foremost, he only plays for 'his country' in the Davis Cup and the Olympics, and that country is GB, not Scotland. Of course it's been embraced by the English commentary teams, as there is no distinction between England and Scotland in tennis.

...and I'm done!

[Moulin Yarns]

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Last points from me, as I've done this to death now!

1. In footballing terms, England are absolutely a different country to Scotland. Given the history, and the fact that we share a border, I'd suggest that it's even more marked than the Denmark/Germany analogy as there is already an established 'rivalry' there. Making the fact that we get 'English' (British) coverage even more bizarre.
2. I'm not quite following your Andy Murray logic. His is an individual sport first and foremost, he only plays for 'his country' in the Davis Cup and the Olympics, and that country is GB, not Scotland. Of course it's been embraced by the English commentary teams, as there is no distinction between England and Scotland in tennis.

...and I'm done!

You didn't see the BBC twitter when Andy Murray was playing!

He wins first 2 sets, it's all Britain's Andy Murray, loses the third set, and it was The Scot is struggling!!!!

[He's here!]

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Last points from me, as I've done this to death now!

1. In footballing terms, England are absolutely a different country to Scotland. Given the history, and the fact that we share a border, I'd suggest that it's even more marked than the Denmark/Germany analogy as there is already an established 'rivalry' there. Making the fact that we get 'English' (British) coverage even more bizarre.
2. I'm not quite following your Andy Murray logic. His is an individual sport first and foremost, he only plays for 'his country' in the Davis Cup and the Olympics, and that country is GB, not Scotland. Of course it's been embraced by the English commentary teams, as there is no distinction between England and Scotland in tennis.

...and I'm done!

Fair enough, I'll bow out of this debate too.

Re Andy Murray, I just meant that after 70 plus years without a British Wimbledon winner (including the years of Henmania), when the real deal emerged in the shape of Murray we witnessed one of the greatest and most emotional days in British sport in 2013. There was no sense from the commentators that the achievement was in some way compromised by the fact he was Scottish rather than English. Sure, there's less distinction between Scotland and England in tennis, but my point is that I'd be surprised if English football pundits didn't wholeheartedly get behind Scotland if we were the only Home Nations side still in contention at a tournament.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Fair enough, I'll bow out of this debate too.

Re Andy Murray, I just meant that after 70 plus years without a British Wimbledon winner (including the years of Henmania), when the real deal emerged in the shape of Murray we witnessed one of the greatest and most emotional days in British sport in 2013. There was no sense from the commentators that the achievement was in some way compromised by the fact he was Scottish rather than English. Sure, there's less distinction between Scotland and England in tennis, but my point is that I'd be surprised if English football pundits didn't wholeheartedly get behind Scotland if we were the only Home Nations side still in contention at a tournament.

To continue the tennis analogy, the English crowd loved Murray because he was British and a winner but not as much as they loved Henman who was properly British.

Scotland or Wales in international footy after England are out (I just about remember 78 and we have 2016 evidence for Wales) are treated a bit like poor old Greg Rusedski, not *really* British but needs must and all that.

[Argylehibby]

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To continue the tennis analogy, the English crowd loved Murray because he was British and a winner but not as much as they loved Henman who was properly British.

Scotland or Wales in international footy after England are out (I just about remember 78 and we have 2016 evidence for Wales) are treated a bit like poor old Greg Rusedski, not *really* British but needs must and all that.

Andy Murray was British until he lost then he was Scottish. A point I made to an English client some years ago who refused to believe it. He called me after Murray was knocked out that year to say he’d just heard that change in nationality.

[One Day Soon]

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To continue the tennis analogy, the English crowd loved Murray because he was British and a winner but not as much as they loved Henman who was properly British.

Scotland or Wales in international footy after England are out (I just about remember 78 and we have 2016 evidence for Wales) are treated a bit like poor old Greg Rusedski, not *really* British but needs must and all that.

What's the evidence basis for this? British tennis was absolutely gagging for a Wimbledon winner after such a long drought and I don't recollect anything other utter joy when Andy won. Maybe there's some kind of support index you can measure the love for Henman versus Andy Murray against but if there is I'd like to see it.