#WomenWontWheesht

[He's here!]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a...eets-5293jhg6v

"It is believed a complaint was made to police suggesting the ribbons represented a noose."

If that's the extent of the outrage then I feel sorry for the police having to get involved.

Just my view, but I think the likes of Joanna Cherry are right to take a stand on this issue which I suspect is bewildering to many:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...says-feminist/

Posted this on another thread, but when you read something like this you wonder where on earth things are headed:

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/replace-t...lls-employers/

[weecounty hibby]

Where do you stand on the issue? I have stayed well clear of this as I just don't understand what's going on and this is genuinely my first post on the subject. I never tweet about it either. To me, people are people. Black, white, gay, straight, trans etc. Everyone should be treated with respect regardless. But I 100% believe that there are folk who are trying to make political capital out of it. So I'd be interested to hear your view point

[He's here!]

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Where do you stand on the issue? I have stayed well clear of this as I just don't understand what's going on and this is genuinely my first post on the subject. I never tweet about it either. To me, people are people. Black, white, gay, straight, trans etc. Everyone should be treated with respect regardless. But I 100% believe that there are folk who are trying to make political capital out of it. So I'd be interested to hear your view point

My viewpoint is that if we go down the road of accepting that any man who simply decides he's a woman literally is one, no questions asked (a policy endorsed by the Scottish Greens) then women's rights and freedoms, so hard won over many, many years, run the risk of being dangerously undermined.

Of course minorities in society require respect and protection, but the number of transwomen legally recognised as 'being female for some purposes' (ie those with a gender recognition certificate) represent such a miniscule percentage of the population that the kind of changes to our daily lives being proposed by the likes of Stonewall are grossly out of proportion.

My fear is that once the Scottish government's hate crime legislation comes into force we'll see just how dangerous this issue has the potential to become, an issue which until now has slipped under the radar to a certain degree because (as you point out) a lot of people don't really understand it.

[Moulin Yarns]

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My viewpoint is that if we go down the road of accepting that any man who simply decides he's a woman literally is one, no questions asked (a policy endorsed by the Scottish Greens) then women's rights and freedoms, so hard won over many, many years, run the risk of being dangerously undermined.

Of course minorities in society require respect and protection, but the number of transwomen legally recognised as 'being female for some purposes' (ie those with a gender recognition certificate) represent such a miniscule percentage of the population that the kind of changes to our daily lives being proposed by the likes of Stonewall are grossly out of proportion.

My fear is that once the Scottish government's hate crime legislation comes into force we'll see just how dangerous this issue has the potential to become, an issue which until now has slipped under the radar to a certain degree because (as you point out) a lot of people don't really understand it.

https://greens.scot/scotland-can/ensure-equal-rights-for-lgbti-people

Where does it say that a man can simply decide they're a woman, no questions asked?

[CloudSquall]

This is one of those issues that in real life most people either take a middle of the road position on (advancing rights for all while protecting vulnerable people) or just don't care about, but on Twitter it is made to look like the issue of the century in which you are either a transphobe or someone that hates women, there is no middle ground available.

It's one of the reasons I took myself off of Twitter.

[Moulin Yarns]

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This is one of those issues that in real life most people either take a middle of the road position on (advancing rights for all while protecting vulnerable people) or just don't care about, but on Twitter it is made to look like the issue of the century in which you are either a transphobe or someone that hates women, there is no middle ground available.

It's one of the reasons I took myself off of Twitter.

Very true.

This weird idea that a man will call themselves a woman just so that they can enter into female dressing rooms or toilets is a smokescreen, IMHO.

[660]

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My viewpoint is that if we go down the road of accepting that any man who simply decides he's a woman literally is one, no questions asked (a policy endorsed by the Scottish Greens) then women's rights and freedoms, so hard won over many, many years, run the risk of being dangerously undermined.

Of course minorities in society require respect and protection, but the number of transwomen legally recognised as 'being female for some purposes' (ie those with a gender recognition certificate) represent such a miniscule percentage of the population that the kind of changes to our daily lives being proposed by the likes of Stonewall are grossly out of proportion.

My fear is that once the Scottish government's hate crime legislation comes into force we'll see just how dangerous this issue has the potential to become, an issue which until now has slipped under the radar to a certain degree because (as you point out) a lot of people don't really understand it.

What are “the kind of changes to our daily lives being proposed by stonewall” exactly?

[wookie70]

It is one of these issues where the reality is nowhere near the scaremongering. It must be torture feeling like you are trapped inside your own body. I hope Scotland as a society can come together and do our best to make everyone living here feel safe and valued. Such a tricky thing to legislate on though.

I have only had personal experience of one person I knew who made the change from living as a man to living as a woman. She was ridiculed by those that should have supported her quickly withdrew from that group. I tried my best to offer support but I lost contact with her thereafter as I only really knew her from the group which she stopped coming along to. It was an older group of people so most were very old fashioned and stuck in their ways. Most you would say were really nice people but they sickened me the night that the lady in question came in dressed as a female for the first time.

I would want all her rights to be protected and for her to be treated as a female if she felt that was her gender.

The other side is the giggling schoolchildren argument about female changing rooms etc. I don't really buy that and it is only an issue because of how prudish most Brits are anyway.

However, there is a real issue in terms of sport and particularly competitive and professional sport. There are cheats of all genders and if money could be made by declaring yourself a woman then I do think that needs some form of law to make sure the playing field is as level as possible. Not that sport is a level playing field as a as a 5 ft male with slim frame may be the same gender as Usain Bolt but is unlikely to ever be able to compete against them.

[Moulin Yarns]

There is a bass player who has been playing with a well known Scottish singer for years who has transitioned from male to female over the years. She is an excellent bassist and a role model for anyone who is looking to transition.

[Pretty Boy]

I find it hard to have an opinion on this because I'm ignorant about so much of the debate. I see people, on both sides, trying to reduce it to 3 word slogans and it leaves me increasingly wary of trying to get involved.

I read an interview with Richard O'Brien recently, it wasn't a new interview but it was new to me. Given his historical background as an advocate of sexual liberation, transvestitism, transgender rights, his own identification as third sex (who uses the he pronoun) and his previous admittance to using estrogen, I assumed he would be of the 'trans women are women' stance. I was quite surprised to see him take quite a firm line that whilst you can change your gender it is fundamentally wrong to say you can alter the sex you were assigned at birth regardless of the surgery, hormone therapy etc you take. He was firmly supportive of the right to self ID, self expression and so on but argued that wasn't the same as ultimately changing sex.

I didn't find the interview particularly enlightening, just confusing. The comments section saw him branded a transphobe and a bigot which seems crazy. I think the encapsulates the nuance of the debate though.

It's something I'd love to know more about so I could form a more rounded opinion of my own. I think of myself as quite middle of the road on it. I don't think I'm either transphobic or a misogynist but the online debate is so polarised I may well be in the eyes of some.

[hibsbollah]

I’ve taken a ‘can see both sides of the argument’ position in terms of the feminist vs trans discussion. I think it’s become ridiculously polarized especially online.

I’m definitely of a generation where men dressing up as women was considered comical, and the trans movement has caught some of us by surprise and challenged our own beliefs. I’ve always enjoyed Paolo Bandinis work as a journalist especially on Italian football. On recent podcasts there was a journo called Nicky Bandini speaking with an extreme falsetto voice, I was extremely confused and did an internet search and she had indeed transitioned a few years ago. An interesting story and she must have quite a few stories to tell about how difficult that must have been in the laddish world she was working in.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.t...-sports-writer

[Moulin Yarns]

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I’ve taken a ‘can see both sides of the argument’ position in terms of the feminist vs trans discussion. I think it’s become ridiculously polarized especially online.

I’m definitely of a generation where men dressing up as women was considered comical, and the trans movement has caught some of us by surprise and challenged our own beliefs. I’ve always enjoyed Paolo Bandinis work as a journalist especially on Italian football. On recent podcasts there was a journo called Nicky Bandini speaking with an extreme falsetto voice, I was extremely confused and did an internet search and she had indeed transitioned a few years ago. An interesting story and she must have quite a few stories to tell about how difficult that must have been in the laddish world she was working in.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.t...-sports-writer

I think what people don't realise is the time and both physical and psychological issues that transitioning involves.

This is very different to someone choosing to identify as x or y.


My great nephew is 9 and from a very young age has been more interested in dolls, such as elsa from frozen and mermaids, than 'boy toys'. Whether this leads to him identifying as female who knows.

[hibsbollah]

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I think what people don't realise is the time and both physical and psychological issues that transitioning involves.

This is very different to someone choosing to identify as x or y.


My great nephew is 9 and from a very young age has been more interested in dolls, such as elsa from frozen and mermaids, than 'boy toys'. Whether this leads to him identifying as female who knows.

As Nicky says; ‘ It would be hypocritical of me to expect other people to instantly digest information that took me countless hours of therapy and lived experience.’

[lord bunberry]

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Very true.

This weird idea that a man will call themselves a woman just so that they can enter into female dressing rooms or toilets is a smokescreen, IMHO.

I agree but it is a genuine concern for a lot of women. There’s the case of the male prisoner that said he identified as a woman and was sent to a female prison with disastrous consequences. Tbh it’s a debate that I’ve always avoided and I can’t say I’m in anyway clued up on the facts.

[Ozyhibby]

My only issue is with Sport. People born male should not be able to compete in females sports. Apart from that, they should have every other right that everyone else has.
All the chat about toilets and changing rooms is nonsense.


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[Ozyhibby]

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In what way, can you elaborate please?

Is there any evidence of men identifying as women just to get access to ladies changing rooms or toilets? Or is it just a hypothetical scenario?


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[speedy_gonzales]

So far, the hypothetical scenario always seems to be a trans-woman entering a ladies toilet area. I don't recall hearing the hypothetical trans-man entering the gents?
I know a trans-man who from a very young age was forced to use the ladies/girls toilets at school. It was either that or the disabled/accessible toilet which is usually on its own somewhere and stood out. This was very damaging for him.
Schools are getting better now though, many are adopting or trialling unisex toilet areas.

I could be very wrong, and am probably not in the best position to comment with authority, but perhaps the threat to women from trans-women doesn't come from the trans-women themselves but is borne from cis-men who have ogled, catcalled, molested & raped over the course of time?

P.S just to add, in no way is it similar but I once had to have a word with a gym owner as their female cleaner regularly used to walk in to the open plan male changing area. This made me feel uncomfortable, not necessarily because I felt threatened but I didn't feel comfortable with the fact the I or other guys could be in a state of undress whilst she may have had to come in. Apparently, raising the issue was good enough grounds for me or any other complainant to question their sexuality,,,, apparently 🙄.

[He's here!]

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What are “the kind of changes to our daily lives being proposed by stonewall” exactly?

I posted a link to some of their latest proposals in my original post.

Stonewall have, in my view, lost the plot of late. Founder member Matthew Parris, who recently quit the charity, wrote an excellent piece on their misguided attempts to wade into the transgender debate:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/s...-war-xcz25nhdt

[He's here!]

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https://greens.scot/scotland-can/ensure-equal-rights-for-lgbti-people

Where does it say that a man can simply decide they're a woman, no questions asked?

The issue was at the heart of the successful amendment to the Victims of Sexual Offences bill last year, which the Greens voted against and which led to Andy Wightman quitting the party.

Patrick Harvie has also made it clear he believes a transwoman is a woman in any circumstances. If I recall rightly, he drew flak for equating transwomen to black, Jewish or disabled women, as though these groups are in some way different biologically in the way transwomen are.

The issue here goes beyond respect for and understanding of trans men or women. It's about the undermining (and potential criminalisation) of women's rights and free speech when expressing the wholly reasonable belief that we can't just erase the concept of sex. A biological women's experiences are entirely different to those of a transwoman (the most obvious being menstruation, pregnancy, giving birth and menopause - all of which can often be physcially and mentally challenging to a debilitating extent) and in my view have the right to question transgender identity without being abused for it.

[He's here!]

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My only issue is with Sport. People born male should not be able to compete in females sports. Apart from that, they should have every other right that everyone else has.
All the chat about toilets and changing rooms is nonsense.


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This point (among others) was made by a female Abertay University student last month who is apparently now facing disciplinary action:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/s...inas-3tnl0f9wb

If you can't access the story due to the paywall, here's what she had to say:

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/0...-have-vaginas/

[CapitalGreen]

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The issue was at the heart of the successful amendment to the Victims of Sexual Offences bill last year, which the Greens voted against and which led to Andy Wightman quitting the party.

Patrick Harvie has also made it clear he believes a transwoman is a woman in any circumstances. If I recall rightly, he drew flak for equating transwomen to black, Jewish or disabled women, as though these groups are in some way different biologically in the way transwomen are.

The issue here goes beyond respect for and understanding of trans men or women. It's about the undermining (and potential criminalisation) of women's rights and free speech when expressing the wholly reasonable belief that we can't just erase the concept of sex. A biological women's experiences are entirely different to those of a transwoman (the most obvious being menstruation, pregnancy, giving birth and menopause - all of which can often be physcially and mentally challenging to a debilitating extent) and in my view have the right to question transgender identity without being abused for it.

Excuse my ignorance on the subject but what rights related to the points in bold are under threat from trans-woman?

[overdrive]

I can see the argument from both sides. One thing on the toilet/changing room issue. Presumably part of the issue is the suspicion that a male to female transgender person might be using their transgender status (either genuine or for the purposes I’m about to say) to somehow perv on women in a state of undress or pounce on them in a vulnerable situation which they wouldn’t have the opportunity to do if they used male facilities.

How is that different to a predatory gay man doing the same thing in male facilities or a predatory lesbian doing so in female changing facilities. Or indeed a male to female transgender person with a sexual preference for males doing so in male facilities?

In the toilet situation, is it actually much different to everyone using unisex toilets?

[Ozyhibby]

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I can see the argument from both sides. One thing on the toilet/changing room issue. Presumably part of the issue is the suspicion that a male to female transgender person might be using their transgender status (either genuine or for the purposes I’m about to say) to somehow perv on women in a state of undress or pounce on them in a vulnerable situation which they wouldn’t have the opportunity to do if they used male facilities.

How is that different to a predatory gay man doing the same thing in male facilities or a predatory lesbian doing so in female changing facilities. Or indeed a male to female transgender person with a sexual preference for males doing so in male facilities?

In the toilet situation, is it actually much different to everyone using unisex toilets?

I imagine the same people worried about trans people using the same changing rooms would have also complaining if gay people using the same changing rooms 20/30 years ago.


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[lapsedhibee]

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I'm back in for a response to that! You have some imagination. No need for the not so subtle unfounded homophobic slurs.

Shirley slurs against homophobes are not homophobic slurs?

[Moulin Yarns]

Some useful links for those who want to understand better.


https://mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/do-yo...he-wrong-body/

https://quillette.com/2019/09/24/no-...he-wrong-body/

https://www.transgendertrend.com/bor...he-wrong-body/

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001527.htm


A lot of reading for those who want to.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I'm back in for a response to that! You have some imagination. No need for the not so subtle unfounded homophobic slurs.

The point is not about specific people. It's about the attitudes and perceived fears of a part of mainstream society. The themes are very similar to the debates on the 70s and 80s about sexuality issues.

[Moulin Yarns]

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I posted a link to some of their latest proposals in my original post.

Stonewall have, in my view, lost the plot of late. Founder member Matthew Parris, who recently quit the charity, wrote an excellent piece on their misguided attempts to wade into the transgender debate:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/s...-war-xcz25nhdt

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/06/stonewall-risks-all-it-has-fought-for-in-accusing-those-who-disagree-with-it-of-hate-speech?__twitter_impression=true

More on stonewall.

[Moulin Yarns]

Im wondering if there is any coincidence the thread was started during Pride Week?

[CropleyWasGod]

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Im wondering if there is any coincidence the thread was started during Pride Week?

It'll be running for a while. It's Pride Month.

[Moulin Yarns]

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It'll be running for a while. It's Pride Month.

My bad. Just listening to radio 6 and I thought it was just a week. So glad that you are feeling so gay 😊😉