Academy To Close? (Mathie says no)

[Pretty Boy]

I was searching for an article I read with Tom Taiwo, from a good while ago, that tore into the academy system. I can't find the whole thing but a small snippet below:

'At 16 I was rated as a very good prospect; now I’m at Carlisle. You see boys who weren’t rated at 16 who at 23 are playing for England. Chris Smalling, he was playing non-league. Now he’s a top player with Manchester United and England. It makes a mockery of the academy system, shows it is not the be-all and end-all. Boys like myself have been right through the system and now I’m nowhere near his standard. That’s the worry.”

That reads as pretty damming. However a quick look on Google shows that Tom Taiwo now works as a scout for......... The Chelsea Academy. I'm not sure it proves much beyond man needs job. However it does suggests he doesn't find the system completely morally objectionable.

[Brightside]

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How do Hibs, and other clubs, go about bringing guys in at 7/8 years old? Is it lads who have been scouted or can they just be taken along?

I've seen a few pictures on social media of kids who look about Primary 2 or 3 age signing forms in front of the press conference board and holding up the strip and stuff and it just strikes me as wrong. No doubt the kids will get a kick out of it but I find it very uncomfortable. This isn't kids playing at an open day, this is young kids 'signing for Hibs' and the sad fact is the vast majority will be back out the door by the time they reach 14 or 15, potentially regarding themselves as failed footballers.

Scouted. I used to be involved with a cracking bunch of 05/06 born kids. One of the best groups in Scotland at the time. AT 9/10 years old Hibs and Hearts came along and signed the majority of the squad. Even before they were playing 11 a side. Young kids who had the chance to create memories, win cups at youth level, all that goes out the window when Pro Clubs come calling. Parents blinded by the idea of their kids going to play for Hibs etc. Its utterly pointless. Leave them were they are and build links with youth clubs so they have first dibs when the kids are 15/16. I've never heard one good argument for young kids going to Pro Youth.

[Onceinawhile]

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How do Hibs, and other clubs, go about bringing guys in at 7/8 years old? Is it lads who have been scouted or can they just be taken along?

I've seen a few pictures on social media of kids who look about Primary 2 or 3 age signing forms in front of the press conference board and holding up the strip and stuff and it just strikes me as wrong. No doubt the kids will get a kick out of it but I find it very uncomfortable. This isn't kids playing at an open day, this is young kids 'signing for Hibs' and the sad fact is the vast majority will be back out the door by the time they reach 14 or 15, potentially regarding themselves as failed footballers.

There's certainly scouts at the 7 a side games my son plays. I think we had a player picked up when we were still playing 5s, so about primary 3 or so. That was hearts. Released a year later absolutely gutted.

[Brightside]

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I was searching for an article I read with Tom Taiwo, from a good while ago, that tore into the academy system. I can't find the whole thing but a small snippet below:

'At 16 I was rated as a very good prospect; now I’m at Carlisle. You see boys who weren’t rated at 16 who at 23 are playing for England. Chris Smalling, he was playing non-league. Now he’s a top player with Manchester United and England. It makes a mockery of the academy system, shows it is not the be-all and end-all. Boys like myself have been right through the system and now I’m nowhere near his standard. That’s the worry.”

That reads as pretty damming. However a quick look on Google shows that Tom Taiwo now works as a scout for......... The Chelsea Academy. I'm not sure it proves much beyond man needs job. However it does suggests he doesn't find the system completely morally objectionable.

He still lives in Porty so he must be a regional scout for them.

[Pretty Boy]

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He still lives in Porty so he must be a regional scout for them.

Scotland and the North East according to LinkedIn.

[Jones28]

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Scouted. I used to be involved with a cracking bunch of 05/06 born kids. One of the best groups in Scotland at the time. AT 9/10 years old Hibs and Hearts came along and signed the majority of the squad. Even before they were playing 11 a side. Young kids who had the chance to create memories, win cups at youth level, all that goes out the window when Pro Clubs come calling. Parents blinded by the idea of their kids going to play for Hibs etc. Its utterly pointless. Leave them were they are and build links with youth clubs so they have first dibs when the kids are 15/16. I've never heard one good argument for young kids going to Pro Youth.

Thats the crux of it for me, instead of getting kids in at 7/8 get them in at 11/12, when they're more experienced. Whats the point of a club like Hibs teaching young kids the basics of the game, then developing them in to 11 aside players when there are dozens of smaller clubs who can do that for them?

My wife used to do a bit of physio for the same group as Josh O'Connor came from and they were a joy to watch - but I think Josh is the only player to have made the grade. It would suggest to me that if the yield is one player from a group of 15/16 then we are wasting money on it.

[J-C]

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How do Hibs, and other clubs, go about bringing guys in at 7/8 years old? Is it lads who have been scouted or can they just be taken along?

I've seen a few pictures on social media of kids who look about Primary 2 or 3 age signing forms in front of the press conference board and holding up the strip and stuff and it just strikes me as wrong. No doubt the kids will get a kick out of it but I find it very uncomfortable. This isn't kids playing at an open day, this is young kids 'signing for Hibs' and the sad fact is the vast majority will be back out the door by the time they reach 14 or 15, potentially regarding themselves as failed footballers.

I think that's what Stevie is saying, we had greater success years ago when kids just played football at school and boys club level, far too many parents think their kid has made it when they sign up for the academy at 11 yrs old and think he's getting coached and prepared for bigger things. We had more home grown players coming through 20-30 years ago than now due to them just playing football and honing their skills.

[Kaff]

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How do Hibs, and other clubs, go about bringing guys in at 7/8 years old? Is it lads who have been scouted or can they just be taken along?

I've seen a few pictures on social media of kids who look about Primary 2 or 3 age signing forms in front of the press conference board and holding up the strip and stuff and it just strikes me as wrong. No doubt the kids will get a kick out of it but I find it very uncomfortable. This isn't kids playing at an open day, this is young kids 'signing for Hibs' and the sad fact is the vast majority will be back out the door by the time they reach 14 or 15, potentially regarding themselves as failed footballers.

I stand to be corrected here but I think some of the press conference style set up with multiple players is a little fun for the community teams which aren't particularly based on ability but more an affiliation to Hibs?
All a bit of a play on the pro game rather than serious stuff.

That does not disregard the fact there are young kids signed up of course and the merits of that are what is being discussed.

[silverhibee]

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I think the idea of the academy is still worthy of discussion. I've never believed in very young kids being put into a Pro Youth system. I think there is an opportunity to review how it is setup. I'm sure it will be on Rons agenda at some point.

What is the youngest age group we start at.

[Brightside]

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What is the youngest age group we start at.

I'm not sure what age they join the actual Academy. They certainly had them in at 8/9/10 a few years back. The Community side have them in at very young ages but that is purely recreational and no issue with that at all.

[silverhibee]

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I think that's what Stevie is saying, we had greater success years ago when kids just played football at school and boys club level, far too many parents think their kid has made it when they sign up for the academy at 11 yrs old and think he's getting coached and prepared for bigger things. We had more home grown players coming through 20-30 years ago than now due to them just playing football and honing their skills.

Would be interesting to know if youth teams like Hutchie Tynie BC & Salvie are still bringing through lads or has that all stopped since the pro academies came into place.

I would prefer we went back to picking up lads from the clubs above at 15 and other youth teams as well, I watched Deek come through that system and it seemed to be working well, he got plenty experience from winning things and travelling abroad and it made these young guys hungry to get a deal with a club when they turn 16, rather than thinking you have made it at Hibs at the age of 9 only to be dumped a couple of years later because you haven't developed quick enough, must be soul destroying for these young lads to be told at 12 year old that they won't make the grade.

[Kaff]

I was at the Edinburgh Cup with a team of 9 yr olds, so 7 a side, and the biggest concern for me was the win at all costs attitude of too many coaches, there weren't referees available so was to be done from the sidelines but this was basically disregarded and we found ourselves the only ones calling free kicks etc against ourselves and we fell into the spiral of not calling them either. Dog eat dog.
I do wonder if a lot of the reason for clubs wanting access to young players is getting them before the poor youth coaches have taken the skill element of their game out of them?
Certainly the argument would be partnerships with reputable clubs/coaches being most productive

[JimBHibees]

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I was at the Edinburgh Cup with a team of 9 yr olds, so 7 a side, and the biggest concern for me was the win at all costs attitude of too many coaches, there weren't referees available so was to be done from the sidelines but this was basically disregarded and we found ourselves the only ones calling free kicks etc against ourselves and we fell into the spiral of not calling them either. Dog eat dog.
I do wonder if a lot of the reason for clubs wanting access to young players is getting them before the poor youth coaches have taken the skill element of their game out of them?
Certainly the argument would be partnerships with reputable clubs/coaches being most productive

Would be amazed if that wasn't one of the main reasons. It will be to do with competition if other teams are picking players up at a certain young age then all teams will follow suit in fear of missing out.

[silverhibee]

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I was at the Edinburgh Cup with a team of 9 yr olds, so 7 a side, and the biggest concern for me was the win at all costs attitude of too many coaches, there weren't referees available so was to be done from the sidelines but this was basically disregarded and we found ourselves the only ones calling free kicks etc against ourselves and we fell into the spiral of not calling them either. Dog eat dog.
I do wonder if a lot of the reason for clubs wanting access to young players is getting them before the poor youth coaches have taken the skill element of their game out of them?
Certainly the argument would be partnerships with reputable clubs/coaches being most productive

Where do you get good youth coaches for that age group, more than likely a parent giving up there spare time to coach the best they can young kids, I done it myself for 6-7 years and it is hard work, 2 nights training game at the weekend, meetings for league and club monthly, dealing with nippy kids and parents and sometimes not even a thanks for it, snidely comments from parents but won't step up themselves to help out, I done a few badges but I know I wasn't a great coach, but I knew I was doing something to help kids do what they loved, play football, don't knock the poor coaches when the SFA do nothing to help youth football.

[Is It On....]

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This is Brentfords model

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/apr/05/brentford-ditched-their-academy-premier-league-outcasts

Josh Doig and Jason Cummings were picked up after being released by a Championship club 😉

[superfurryhibby]

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Would be interesting to know if youth teams like Hutchie Tynie BC & Salvie are still bringing through lads or has that all stopped since the pro academies came into place.

I would prefer we went back to picking up lads from the clubs above at 15 and other youth teams as well, I watched Deek come through that system and it seemed to be working well, he got plenty experience from winning things and travelling abroad and it made these young guys hungry to get a deal with a club when they turn 16, rather than thinking you have made it at Hibs at the age of 9 only to be dumped a couple of years later because you haven't developed quick enough, must be soul destroying for these young lads to be told at 12 year old that they won't make the grade.

Couldn't agree more.

The elite boys clubs still gave a very decent standard of play for laddies before pro-youth or whatever it's called took over.

Not sure about the current state of Juvenile football these days, well Covid aside, I'm sure these clubs are still doing their stuff, but I would imagine the vast majority of youngsters playing professionally will have come through pro-youth?

Looking back on coaching (1970's) though, there was very little attempt at drilling my side with the likes of offside or anything beyond very basic level tactics. You knew your role and kind of just developed a bit shape or at least that's how it felt to me. I played for Tynie and our coach, Dougie Dalgleish was, as you might expect a right Hearts man. He was to have a long involvement with Juvenile football and scouted or coached at Hearts. I think he just encouraged us to go and play.

[Stonewall]

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I was searching for an article I read with Tom Taiwo, from a good while ago, that tore into the academy system. I can't find the whole thing but a small snippet below:

'At 16 I was rated as a very good prospect; now I’m at Carlisle. You see boys who weren’t rated at 16 who at 23 are playing for England. Chris Smalling, he was playing non-league. Now he’s a top player with Manchester United and England. It makes a mockery of the academy system, shows it is not the be-all and end-all. Boys like myself have been right through the system and now I’m nowhere near his standard. That’s the worry.”

That reads as pretty damming. However a quick look on Google shows that Tom Taiwo now works as a scout for......... The Chelsea Academy. I'm not sure it proves much beyond man needs job. However it does suggests he doesn't find the system completely morally objectionable.

Yes a man’s got to eat.

To be fair he maybe loves coaching and has an aptitude for it and wants to progress to more senior levels.

[Kaff]

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Where do you get good youth coaches for that age group, more than likely a parent giving up there spare time to coach the best they can young kids, I done it myself for 6-7 years and it is hard work, 2 nights training game at the weekend, meetings for league and club monthly, dealing with nippy kids and parents and sometimes not even a thanks for it, snidely comments from parents but won't step up themselves to help out, I done a few badges but I know I wasn't a great coach, but I knew I was doing something to help kids do what they loved, play football, don't knock the poor coaches when the SFA do nothing to help youth football.

Wasn't criticising in general as I'm exactly as you describe too, a parent with coaching badges who gets frustrated by the situation too.
That is however what I mean, if kids coaching is in the hands of people like that and the concentration on winning at all costs rather than developing skill is predominant then I can see why clubs are getting involved at a young age.
As the elite level is such a small percentage of the actual kids game then it shouldn't get to run roughshod over whole structure but equally as a nation we do need to develop the skill level of our players

Edit.
I think I agree with most of what you say regards boys clubs and the age some are being rejected. What I said about clubs forming relationships with reputable teams/coaches is possibly what you with the youth teams staying separate?

[Brightside]

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I was at the Edinburgh Cup with a team of 9 yr olds, so 7 a side, and the biggest concern for me was the win at all costs attitude of too many coaches, there weren't referees available so was to be done from the sidelines but this was basically disregarded and we found ourselves the only ones calling free kicks etc against ourselves and we fell into the spiral of not calling them either. Dog eat dog.
I do wonder if a lot of the reason for clubs wanting access to young players is getting them before the poor youth coaches have taken the skill element of their game out of them?
Certainly the argument would be partnerships with reputable clubs/coaches being most productive

On the other side of the coin there are plenty excellent youth club coaches out there, and plenty dreadful pro youth coaches.

[SanFranHibs]

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It's been quite an interesting discussion though so I'm not sure it really matters how it came about.

I have, being somewhat ignorant of the whole setup, found it very interesting and can only imagine this is a perrenial thorn for many clubs who exist just outside the event horizon of a financial black hole.

I recently said to someone I longed for the good ol' days at Hibs and he thought I meant Turnbull's Tornadoes, but I was jokingly referring to the time when we were a 'feeder club'. I know all were not products of our youth system, but we certainly were shipping a few good ones along the M8.

I don't even have a clue what the costs of our Academy are and my first thought would be that it would be a pity if it were shut down entirely, but it is all about what we are actually getting from it.

And though not particularly relevant to our position, I had to laugh that on the same day I am reading this thread, on Sky Sports I see the headline 'What now for £72m Pepe?' pertaining to Arsenal's record signing having to force his way into the 'young' team. Upstairs and Downstairs comes to mind.

[Scott Allan Key]

Maybe Goodwin was on a wind up? Suggesting we don't need our academy as we just use St Mirren's instead.

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[andudare2]

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If, and it’s a very big if, it’s surely a mothballing situation until things stabilise again?

Exactly, it's just the same situation as first lockdown. I assume that all age groups will be the same as the 2006,s in being given video for fitness and coaching to help while this lockdown is ongoing.

[andudare2]

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We did it at the last lockdown but re opened it when things stabilised, I'd assume due to the academy not being deemed elite athletes it'll be closed until we come out of tier 4.

No we didn't, papers media etc were totally wrong.There were cuts in coaching staff but players in all age groups were video coached and had video fitness programs to follow, nothing has changed with regards to present lockdown.

[The dalmeny]

I see u18 matches are due to start back in a couple of weeks

[Onion]

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Maybe Goodwin was on a wind up? Suggesting we don't need our academy as we just use St Mirren's instead.

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Of course he is. It's nothing more than a tongue in cheek dig at Hibs recruiting all their players, in much the same way as Aberdeen use Hibs as their official scouting system.

[Billy Whizz]

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I see u18 matches are due to start back in a couple of weeks

Unfortunately the details of these games aren’t published, but good for the lads that they are back playing

[The dalmeny]

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6509084[/URL]]Unfortunately the details of these games aren’t published, but good for the lads that they are back playing

got some details from a friend. Looks like 9 teams, play each other once then split top 4 bottom 5 for another round of games

[Billy Whizz]

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got some details from a friend. Looks like 9 teams, play each other once then split top 4 bottom 5 for another round of games

Are we allowed to watch😀

[The dalmeny]

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6509637[/URL]]Are we allowed to watch😀

google earth in the training centre 😂

[The dalmeny]

First game back this Friday against Utd