Famous Five Lower - Singing Section v ICT

[malcolm]

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Hearts games should be treated as a totally desperate entity, it’s going to sell out so we need to have a priority window of some sort.

In smaller games where the majority of the stadium lies empty, and 10% or less take up the option of their own seat/discount then we need to look at other ways to group everyone together and create an atmosphere, to me that is closing top sections of the ground until they are needed to open.

I’m fed up sitting in a soulless atmosphere for smaller cup games just for the sake of some wee guy getting to sit in the west upper corner on his own, when reality is he would probably have absolutely no issue sitting in the lower tier.

Your reckoning of probability may owe more to it fitting your own perceptions and bias than any meaningful canvassing of opinion. Here’s mine:

I’d take great exception to moving down to the lower tier and swapping that with my great seat - which is further from the potential bad weather, has a great view and is not squeezed into a narrower space. I appreciate the option to move for cup games but am disinclined to do so.

Why do folk want to close the west upper for some cup games? Is to try and force an ‘atmosphere’ or to look good for the cameras? If it is the former then they are flogging a horse well beyond rigour mortis - there has not really been an ‘atmosphere’ in the west since the old north wing standees could stamp their feet. Moving folk down from the tier above will not change that.

Custom and practice is that you can have your season seat for cup games which has been the case from when cup games were removed from the season ticket.

The atmosphere that folk are looking to return is one rooted in the ability to stand and congregate together as desired. The fan influenced choice of a single tier east stand in retrospect was a mistake not just for the lengthy time to exit but the steepness makes it harder for a standing area to be placed there, i.e. where the atmosphere had naturally occurred in particular after the ‘benching’ of the cave behind the goals.

[HibeeHibernian4]

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Something obviously needs to be sorted out, but for the start of next season.

Anything sooner isn't going to happen.

Season ticket renewals will be starting any day now, if previous years are anything to go by.

You’re not seriously suggesting that the club will just throw something together in August and hope for the best?

And anyway as has been pointed out Friday is a big match, the sort that could determine how many season ticket holders we have next year (particularly if we make a final). The club has a chance to give Hibs an edge (open to debate how big this edge is but I think it’s a significant one personally) by putting our most active, loudest support right behind the goals. It works across Britain and Europe, and it could be a difference maker on Friday.

The fact that it’s not looking likely to happen because maybe twenty season ticket holders in the FF Lower have some slavish devotion to sitting in their bit of plastic is a testament to Hibs’ priorities being completely wrong. Give the young team a section in the lower for the night and let them crack on with it. Simple as.

[Begbie79]

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'This idea' is the current regulations when buying a ticket in the FF lower. What makes you confident that the club were planning to overlook it? When were they going to announce this? When were they planning to overwrte Ticketmaster's block on purchasing single seat tickets in that section? The game is in four days time with tickets on sale three days ago.

Wouldnt be difficult to do considering we have sold less than 100 tickets as it stands.

[ABZHFC]

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How do you feel about alienating all the parents and their children?

There's a lot more of them than 50.

Honestly? I would say almost every single area at Easter Road is essentially a family stand right now (Hearts and OF games aside). The whole point of having a family section is it’s meant to differentiate from more boisterous areas. What our club (and a portion of our fans) seem to want is a sterile ground with an even more sterile area behind the goals. It’s just ridiculous, I will never stop criticising those who want the status quo to remain, they are completely and utterly wrong

[Danderhall Hibs]

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Also, in terms of the “don’t blame the club” line, I think our board have done many great things (most recently the greenest club in Scotland initiative - which I think is fantastic!) but they are due criticism on this specific issue, and they have been due it for several years now. They are absolutely determined to turn a blind eye to it, kick it into the long grass and just hope the status quo remains. Surely it can’t go on for any longer, especially when so many fans agree something HAS to be done to address the poor atmosphere at Easter Road

Did the club help with the last move the singing section made? I’m sure they were involved in relocating several fans who had been in seats for years and liked them due to the access etc.

[Barney McGrew]

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We have to start treating those who want to make an atmosphere at Easter Road as a priority, and I know that will irk those of you who think “but singing doesn’t make you a better fan” or “I used to sing back in the day”, however it’s a harsh truth

Having a drum, some flags on sticks and knocking out a couple of songs now and again doesn’t mean anyone should be treated with any kind of priority.

Just IMO.

[Andy74]

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You couldn’t make it up.

Fans precious about their seats in a near empty FF stand denying fellow fans a chance to come and help the team progress to a semi final.

The club and staff should get criticism as they are clueless how to engage with the support at times and move with the times.

The ST renewals will be going out again soon and I hope they have thought what the plan is for the singing section as the current location isn’t working and ignoring it won’t fix it.

Also ignoring the fact the FF is always empty for cup games and nearly 50% full for most home games except Hearts when it still isn’t full even though is supposedly sold out isn’t right. Change is required.

Change isn't necessarily required for the family section. It is what it is and that has to be accepted somewhat.

We all like to see the high season ticket numbers, we want to encourage a new generation of fans - family areas and family pricing are part of that.

Empty seats are an issue if they aren't sold - these are largely sold. It is only going to be an issue when fans that want to come to games can't get a ticket. Even then, if that's the case - buy a season ticket when you get a chance.

It has been covered lots of times on here - families don't always go, it's not always the same ones that are empty - that's just the way it is. I wouldn't discourage people from buying season tickets so that the odd walk up on a very rare occasion that they can't get a ticket has an issue. How many genuine full sell outs have we had?

I bought my daughter a season ticket in the East when she was 2. That was 10 years ago, when we had basically the whole block to ourselves because it was empty back then. I still buy that season ticket every year. She's been to about 2 games a season on average and it is empty the rest of the time. There will be a lit of similar situations, more concentrated in that family area.

[ABZHFC]

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Having a drum, some flags on sticks and knocking out a couple of songs now and again doesn’t mean anyone should be treated with any kind of priority.

Just IMO.

When the alternative is sitting for 90 minutes and not contributing whatsoever to the atmosphere, then I think they should be treated with some sort of respect for the fact that, without them, Easter Road’s atmosphere would be even worse than it currently is

It used to be good a few years ago, mind. It’s not like this is an impossible task to make it decent again

[Hibbyradge]

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So nothing was official, someone complained on the back of a rumour and the club have retracted?

Sounds ridiculous. It’d be more likely that nothing was agreed in the first place.

I agree.

"The club" verbally agreed according to a good source.

It's a perfect hibs.net FACT.

[Barney McGrew]

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Did the club help with the last move the singing section made? I’m sure they were involved in relocating several fans who had been in seats for years and liked them due to the access etc.

Yup.

And now they’ve decided they don’t like that place, then some people would like to see more long standing season ticket holders punted out their seats to make way for where they want to go this time.

Bottom line is, the atmosphere in the stadium is dictated largely by what’s going on on the pitch. The ground will be noisier when the team is doing a lot of attacking and playing good football.

[Onceinawhile]

To be fair to those pushing for it, we only need to look at a club like Killie or Aberdeen who've tried something like this recently.

Killie installed 300 or so safe standing seats behind the goals and now their home is a fortress, I could barely hear the BT sports commentators when we went down there. It obviously works as well, as we didn't come away with any points from that game.

Looking at the Aberdeen example, which is probably closer to what people are suggesting and look how well it worked for them. They had 6th place in league 1 Dumbarton and trialled putting everyone behind the one goal - end result - a fenerbache like atmosphere which roared the dons on to a huge win.

In addition, look at the average attendances for both clubs since then too - Through the roof.

[Radium]

We either have an entitled section of the support who pursues their own priorities without the support of the club, or

We have a club that doesn’t take the time to think through what they allow fans to try out and too late realise that they just can’t tear up their own ground rules.


Personally I don’t buy the idea that the fans are at fault here (either those trying to move the singing section or those that had bought tickets as normal).

What we have is another example of a Director of the club stepping into a vacuum left by the SLO.

Hopefully the plans that are about to be announced address this.








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[Barney McGrew]

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When the alternative is sitting for 90 minutes and not contributing whatsoever to the atmosphere, then I think they should be treated with some sort of respect for the fact that, without them, Easter Road’s atmosphere would be even worse than it currently is

It used to be good a few years ago, mind. It’s not like this is an impossible task to make it decent again

So what exactly do you you expect this priority treatment they should be getting given to be?

[mcohibs]

I am 100% in favour of moving the singing section to FF lower but I don't think the club should be in for criticism when there's no evidence to suggest that for Friday there was ever actually a properly planned out strategy for moving them down there (including removal of ticket restrictions), bar someone on here posting that they 'heard through the grapevine' that the club agreed to it and have now backed down.

[Chuck Rhoades]

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Yup.

And now they’ve decided they don’t like that place, then some people would like to see more long standing season ticket holders punted out their seats to make way for where they want to go this time.

Bottom line is, the atmosphere in the stadium is dictated largely by what’s going on on the pitch. The ground will be noisier when the team is doing a lot of attacking and playing good football.

They are trying to do something about the dreadful atmosphere I don’t think it has to do with “liking” anything?

We’re at risk of seeing the 2/300 up there packing it in completely then we’ll be even worse off than we are now which is unimaginable given how good the atmosphere only 3 seasons ago.

[Hibbyradge]

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Honestly? I would say almost every single area at Easter Road is essentially a family stand right now (Hearts and OF games aside). The whole point of having a family section is it’s meant to differentiate from more boisterous areas. What our club (and a portion of our fans) seem to want is a sterile ground with an even more sterile area behind the goals. It’s just ridiculous, I will never stop criticising those who want the status quo to remain, they are completely and utterly wrong

Ok, but how do you feel about alienating those parents and children who have paid to sit there?

I'd be pissed off if you told me to move to somewhere I didn't want to go because someone who might not even have a ST wanted to sit there.

I don't read many people arguing that the status quo should be maintained indefinitely, but there's a way to do this, and the current suggestion isn't it.

[hibbysam]

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There's absolutely no chance of that happening.

"I realise you and your mates have had a ST in that seat for many years, but you're going to have to sit in the last row of the lower tier."

"Aye, well you can stick next year's season tickets where the sun doesn't shine".

That would be totally self defeating.

It’s not a perk that’s noted at the time of the sales of season tickets, and if someone buys a season ticket purely because they can keep their own seat for cup games then I’d question their intentions.

Also, they wouldn’t have to sit in the last row of any lower tier, they could literally pick 90% of the seats as less than 10% have purchased a seat in the priority window, presumably much less than this are season ticket holders buying their own seat as some sold will be walk up supporters.

[Andy74]

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Honestly? I would say almost every single area at Easter Road is essentially a family stand right now (Hearts and OF games aside). The whole point of having a family section is it’s meant to differentiate from more boisterous areas. What our club (and a portion of our fans) seem to want is a sterile ground with an even more sterile area behind the goals. It’s just ridiculous, I will never stop criticising those who want the status quo to remain, they are completely and utterly wrong

Why target the one area that is most definitely for families? There's a whole rest of the stadium to play with if you think everywhere is too quiet.

This thought that atmospheres need to be co-ordinated and accompanied by drums and so on is a bit odd. 4 or 5 of us together used to start songs left, right and centre from under the gantry back in the day.

If you are starting stuff folk know it takes off - if you are expecting whole stands to pick up the new tune of the day then it will be a non starter. The classics were all there for a reason!

[hibbysam]

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Ok, but how do you feel about alienating those parents and children who have paid to sit there?

I'd be pissed off if you told me to move to somewhere I didn't want to go because someone who might not even have a ST wanted to sit there.

I don't read many people arguing that the status quo should be maintained indefinitely, but there's a way to do this, and the current suggestion isn't it.

Kids can sit beside the singing section, they’re not exclusive of each other. Why is everyone of the opinion that youngsters don’t want to sit beside within the atmosphere?

[Danderhall Hibs]

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They are trying to do something about the dreadful atmosphere I don’t think it has to do with “liking” anything?

We’re at risk of seeing the 2/300 up there packing it in completely then we’ll be even worse off than we are now which is unimaginable given how good the atmosphere only 3 seasons ago.

Surely they wouldn’t stop supporting the club because they couldn’t sit in the FFL?

[hibbysam]

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Your reckoning of probability may owe more to it fitting your own perceptions and bias than any meaningful canvassing of opinion. Here’s mine:

I’d take great exception to moving down to the lower tier and swapping that with my great seat - which is further from the potential bad weather, has a great view and is not squeezed into a narrower space. I appreciate the option to move for cup games but am disinclined to do so.

Why do folk want to close the west upper for some cup games? Is to try and force an ‘atmosphere’ or to look good for the cameras? If it is the former then they are flogging a horse well beyond rigour mortis - there has not really been an ‘atmosphere’ in the west since the old north wing standees could stamp their feet. Moving folk down from the tier above will not change that.

Custom and practice is that you can have your season seat for cup games which has been the case from when cup games were removed from the season ticket.

The atmosphere that folk are looking to return is one rooted in the ability to stand and congregate together as desired. The fan influenced choice of a single tier east stand in retrospect was a mistake not just for the lengthy time to exit but the steepness makes it harder for a standing area to be placed there, i.e. where the atmosphere had naturally occurred in particular after the ‘benching’ of the cave behind the goals.

Nothing to do with bias, well apart from wanting a better atmosphere really. I also couldn’t care about cameras, purely for atmosphere and costings for the club. If we don’t need to open the top tier then we shouldn’t, we don’t open the top tier of the away support if they are coming in small numbers and the same should be used for the home crowd for small cup games.

Everyone packed in tightly with no massive spaces in between leads to a better atmosphere as it suddenly feels fuller.

[Barney McGrew]

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We’re at risk of seeing the 2/300 up there packing it in completely then we’ll be even worse off than we are now which is unimaginable given how good the atmosphere only 3 seasons ago.

Why would they stop going?

[theonlywayisup]

I've given this thread a miss, as I'm one of those that has a seat in the FFL. To be honest, I can't be bothered with entering into the debate, as I know I'll be shouted down.

My tuppence worth is that I would happily relocate from the FFL, however when I check to see what seats are currently available it's all single seats that's no use for my party of five. I'm sure that's the same with the family beside me, who have six tickets and those in front of me with four, and those beside them that have five etc etc. Yes, there's probably seats in the far ends of the East and West, but there's a reason no-one buys these seats - the view is rubbish.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if I was moved from our seats in the FFL I would probably not renew my party of five tickets. I like my seats and have built up a great friendship will the people beside me. If I was moved, I would likely pick and choose which games I go to and where I sit. The net result would be the loss of five season tickets, albeit the majority being kids.

No doubt I'll get the "but think about the atmosphere, that's what matters" response, which is why I'll abstain from this thread.

[ABZHFC]

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Why target the one area that is most definitely for families? There's a whole rest of the stadium to play with if you think everywhere is too quiet.

This thought that atmospheres need to be co-ordinated and accompanied by drums and so on is a bit odd. 4 or 5 of us together used to start songs left, right and centre from under the gantry back in the day.

If you are starting stuff folk know it takes off - if you are expecting whole stands to pick up the new tune of the day then it will be a non starter. The classics were all there for a reason!

This is such a false argument, up there with “the atmosphere’s good when the team plays well”. Look around you on a match day. Look how few people actually stand for 90 minutes, never mind sing. It’s not like I’m harking back to a bygone era, the atmosphere in 2016 was booming some games.

Yes, the singing section made a mistake moving (although that was influenced by some people attaching themselves to the group and causing trouble), but that doesn’t mean they should be stuck there “because it will upset fans if they move again”

Truthfully, I do not care if a few fans are upset about losing their seat, I do not care one bit. It doesn’t influence the team’s performance on the pitch, which atmosphere actually does. So yes, I would move every family who didn’t want to sing, there are plenty of places in the ground for that. There are only one or two logical places for a singing section to be situated, and behind the goals is one of them

[ABZHFC]

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Why would they stop going?

Because the club make it a thankless task, they wouldn’t stop attending altogether, but they may stop attending as an active group. That would be the final nail in the coffin for Easter Road’s atmosphere, and we therefore must do all we can to ensure it doesn’t happen. If that means upsetting people who sit on their hands for 90 minutes but happen to have an attachment to a piece of plastic in the FF lower, so be it - in my opinion

[Chorley Hibee]

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We either have an entitled section of the support who pursues their own priorities without the support of the club, or

We have a club that doesn’t take the time to think through what they allow fans to try out and too late realise that they just can’t tear up their own ground rules.


Personally I don’t buy the idea that the fans are at fault here (either those trying to move the singing section or those that had bought tickets as normal).

What we have is another example of a Director of the club stepping into a vacuum left by the SLO.

Hopefully the plans that are about to be announced address this.








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Agree entirely on Kieran stepping in for the Supporter Liaison Officer.

I'd be surprised if most of our support were even aware we had a Supporter Liaison Officer, that says a lot in itself.

[Danderhall Hibs]

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I've given this thread a miss, as I'm one of those that has a seat in the FFL. To be honest, I can't be bothered with entering into the debate, as I know I'll be shouted down.

My tuppence worth is that I would happily relocate from the FFL, however when I check to see what seats are currently available it's all single seats that's no use for my party of five. I'm sure that's the same with the family beside me, who have six tickets and those in front of me with four, and those beside them that have five etc etc. Yes, there's probably seats in the far ends of the East and West, but there's a reason no-one buys these seats - the view is rubbish.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if I was moved from our seats in the FFL I would probably not renew my party of five tickets. I like my seats and have built up a great friendship will the people beside me. If I was moved, I would likely pick and choose which games I go to and where I sit. The net result would be the loss of five season tickets, albeit the majority being kids.

No doubt I'll get the "but think about the atmosphere, that's what matters" response, which is why I'll abstain from this thread.

I know what you’re saying - I’m in the FFU and have looked the last couple of seasons for a move but trying to get more than 2 decent seats together elsewhere is impossible.

[oldbutdim]

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Ok, but how do you feel about alienating those parents and children who have paid to sit there?

I'd be pissed off if you told me to move to somewhere I didn't want to go because someone who might not even have a ST wanted to sit there.

I don't read many people arguing that the status quo should be maintained indefinitely, but there's a way to do this, and the current suggestion isn't it.

I like where I sit. My sons are there, my mates are there, and the folk immediately behind me, and in front, are nice people.
I’d be furious if I was forced to move elsewhere, and given that I have really good folk around me – and that wouldn’t be guaranteed if I had to move, then maybe I’d reconsider renewing.
As it happens, my seat isn’t “in danger” as I am not far away from the current location of the SS guys and gals. To be honest, they don’t really make the ‘atmosphere’ any more exciting than it was previously before they re-located. I couldn’t really hear them when they were in the East, and now that I can ………… well…….. I’m ambivalent.
It’s great stuff ‘standing up if you hate the Hearts’ when your knees don’t complain about it.
I can well understand other folk also getting a bit miffed if they are forced to move away from what may be a ‘comfort zone’ and end up sitting within earshot of some walloper dishing out the abuse to our players.

[Hibbyradge]

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It’s not a perk that’s noted at the time of the sales of season tickets, and if someone buys a season ticket purely because they can keep their own seat for cup games then I’d question their intentions.

Also, they wouldn’t have to sit in the last row of any lower tier, they could literally pick 90% of the seats as less than 10% have purchased a seat in the priority window, presumably much less than this are season ticket holders buying their own seat as some sold will be walk up supporters.

It's a well known arrangement whether someone has written it down or not.

All clubs give their ST members first refusal to buy their own seat for cup games and rightly so.

They're valuable to the club and should be treated as such.

What you're suggesting would be a huge, self defeating mistake and it just won't happen.

[Danderhall Hibs]

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Agree entirely on Keith stepping in for the Supporter Liaison Officer.

I'd be surprised if most of our support were even aware we had a Supporter Liaison Officer, that says a lot in itself.

I didn’t realise we had an SLO - I had assumed it was Kieran.