General election 2019

[danhibees1875]

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I've got family in Yorkshire and Essex, they are still family, they stay in touch.

I've got friends in Assynt who it takes longer for them to get to Edinburgh than it does to get to Birmingham from Edinburgh. They are still my friends and I see them 4 or 5 times a year.

I know someone who has moved from Sussex to Fife, where she could afford a 3 bedroom house instead of the one bedroom flat she was in.

In Scotland the average salary is £29,998, and you pay 1% less tax in Scotland between £12.5k and £14.5k, the same between £14.5k and £25k you would only pay more tax on earnings above £25k, so 1% above England on only £5k.

Happy to explain

That's not explanation, that's anecdotal evidence.

I'm not arguing that your family or friends stop being so when they/you move further away. Technology means you can speak to them round the clock - I still consider it moving away from them though and think it's a reasonable deterrent. Of course different people will have different ideas of how far away becomes "moving away" in a sense that it would impact them.

I could get a 5-storey, 10 bed guest house in Scarborough for the price of a 3 bed house in Edinburgh.

Numbers for average earnings may have moved a little, but I think the general premise was you pay more tax here if you earn over the average wage and pay less tax if you earn less than that. Do you think it's lower earners in England that are the ardent pro-EU supports willing to move?

[Moulin Yarns]

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That's not explanation, that's anecdotal evidence.

I'm not arguing that your family or friends stop being so when they/you move further away. Technology means you can speak to them round the clock - I still consider it moving away from them though and think it's a reasonable deterrent. Of course different people will have different ideas of how far away becomes "moving away" in a sense that it would impact them.

I could get a 5-storey, 10 bed guest house in Scarborough for the price of a 3 bed house in Edinburgh.

Numbers for average earnings may have moved a little, but I think the general premise was you pay more tax here if you earn over the average wage and pay less tax if you earn less than that. Do you think it's lower earners in England that are the ardent pro-EU supports willing to move?

Everything in my last paragraph is the explanation of lower taxation in Scotland. The figures are from government finance figures for 2019.


Why would someone moving from England to escape brexit buy a property in Scarborough?
Happy to help. 😉😁

[marinello59]

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After 300 years of union I would expect that if it’s such a good deal then they would be confident of gaining at least 60% approvals rating?


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If it’s such a bad deal we should be confident of getting at least 60% voting Yes but we are nowhere near that yet. We still have a lot of work to do. I’m not in favour of insisting on a super majority but I hope that any referendum has a resounding result one way or the other.

[marinello59]

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Everything in my last paragraph is the explanation of lower taxation in Scotland. The figures are from government finance figures for 2019.


Why would someone moving from England to escape brexit buy a property in Scarborough?
Happy to help. 😉😁

Until we actually gain Independence and decide whether we are going to rejoin the EU or not there is no escape from Brexit by moving to Scotland. I can’t see us gaining any significant boost to the Yes vote from that area unfortunately.

[danhibees1875]

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Everything in my last paragraph is the explanation of lower taxation in Scotland. The figures are from government finance figures for 2019.


Why would someone moving from England to escape brexit buy a property in Scarborough?
Happy to help. 😉😁

Okay, we agree your first 3 paragraphs weren't explanation then.

Your tax lesson wasn't explanation either FWIW. Scotland doesn't have lower taxes.

As for house prices, that was just me trying to make it clear to you that "cheaper houses" isn't a sweeping a statement you can make.

[Ozyhibby]

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Okay, we agree your first 3 paragraphs weren't explanation then.

Your tax lesson wasn't explanation either FWIW. Scotland doesn't have lower taxes.

As for house prices, that was just me trying to make it clear to you that "cheaper houses" isn't a sweeping a statement you can make.

Scotland has much lower council tax bills than England. By a good bit.


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[Onceinawhile]

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Scotland has much lower council tax bills than England. By a good bit.


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Does it?

I saw one of my client's council tax bills, he had a 2m+ property near westminster and paid less than I do in Bathgate, for a house worth roughly 1/10th of that!

[JeMeSouviens]

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Does it?

I saw one of my client's council tax bills, he had a 2m+ property near westminster and paid less than I do in Bathgate, for a house worth roughly 1/10th of that!

[Colr]

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I pay one **** of a lot more that this graph indicates for London!!!

[RyeSloan]

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I pay one **** of a lot more that this graph indicates for London!!!

And for Edinburgh! Band D council tax is over £1,700....

[JeMeSouviens]

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And for Edinburgh! Band D council tax is over £1,700....

What part of average did you 2 not get?

[Just_Jimmy]

Remember that your water is included in Scotland. Down here we pay council tax then water seperate. So a CT bill of £165 a month would be £165 plus £30. So £195.

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[McD]

I could be totally wrong here, but don’t they pay separately for water in England, whereas here it’s built into your council tax?

That could make council tax in England appear lower, because we have another charge built in that they have separate

apologies if I’m totally incorrect ��

[ronaldo7]

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And for Edinburgh! Band D council tax is over £1,700....

It's actually £1277.40 but if you want to add in the water and sewerage costs it takes you to £1721.64

For Manchester the band D council tax is £1646.02 you've then got to add on the privatised water and sewerage charges.

Newcastle is worse at £1860.03 for band D.

[Ozyhibby]

So it’s fair to say that the SNP have saved households a lot of money with their council tax freeze.


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[Mibbes Aye]

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So it’s fair to say that the SNP have saved households a lot of money with their council tax freeze.


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It is fair to say that poorer people pay a discounted council tax and the poorest pay no council tax at all, meaning that the households that benefitted the most were those more wealthy.

The double whammy was that the SNP forced councils into the freeze by telling them that if they didn’t implement it then their block grant would be cut by more than any CT increase they proposed.

So let’s play a game of ‘what services do you cut to fund the council tax freeze?’

No need for answers on a postcard, it was the services that aren’t statutory obligations but protected the weakest and most vulnerable in our society.

Day care for adults with with learning disabilities. Lunch clubs for the frail elderly. Maintaining pavements and streetlighting and subsidised bus services for those who can’t just jump in a car to their GP, hospital appointment or even their supermarket. Libraries that provided internet access for those who couldn’t afford it.

The council tax freeze was a shameful bribe at middle and upper earners and lapped up by them. Straight out of a Thatcherite Tory playbook.

And while people on decent earnings enjoyed the benefit, those at the bottom saw no benefit and saw their public services decimated, at their expense.

It was an absolute disgrace.

[Ozyhibby]

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It is fair to say that poorer people pay a discounted council tax and the poorest pay no council tax at all, meaning that the households that benefitted the most were those more wealthy.

The double whammy was that the SNP forced councils into the freeze by telling them that if they didn’t implement it then their block grant would be cut by more than any CT increase they proposed.

So let’s play a game of ‘what services do you cut to fund the council tax freeze?’

No need for answers on a postcard, it was the services that aren’t statutory obligations but protected the weakest and most vulnerable in our society.

Day care for adults with with learning disabilities. Lunch clubs for the frail elderly. Maintaining pavements and streetlighting and subsidised bus services for those who can’t just jump in a car to their GP, hospital appointment or even their supermarket. Libraries that provided internet access for those who couldn’t afford it.

The council tax freeze was a shameful bribe at middle and upper earners and lapped up by them. Straight out of a Thatcherite Tory playbook.

And while people on decent earnings enjoyed the benefit, those at the bottom saw no benefit and saw their public services decimated, at their expense.

It was an absolute disgrace.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-34326185

Holyrood funding made up the difference.
And it’s not just rich people who pay council tax. If it was then it would not be enough to win an election. Since 2007 when the freeze was introduced, council tax under Labour in Wales has gone up 32%. There are a lot of people on low income in large houses who are unfairly punished by the council tax and Labour had been treating it like a cash cow for years. It’s why the SNP were returned with a massive majority in 2011.
I’m all in favour of funding social services but if you can’t sell it to the population it’s not going to happen. It’s one of the reasons socialism always ends up in dictatorship, because it can’t survive in a democracy.


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[Mibbes Aye]

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-34326185

Holyrood funding made up the difference.
And it’s not just rich people who pay council tax. If it was then it would not be enough to win an election. Since 2007 when the freeze was introduced, council tax under Labour in Wales has gone up 32%. There are a lot of people on low income in large houses who are unfairly punished by the council tax and Labour had been treating it like a cash cow for years. It’s why the SNP were returned with a massive majority in 2011.
I’m all in favour of funding social services but if you can’t sell it to the population it’s not going to happen. It’s one of the reasons socialism always ends up in dictatorship, because it can’t survive in a democracy.


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There are a lot of ifs and buts and maybes in the link you posted and I’m not buying it.

Can you tell me whether libraries, day care and support for older people in your area are still functioning at the level they did before the freeze came in?

This isn’t about funding social services, as right as that is, it is about funding services that are preventative, that stop or delay people needing more costful services. It is a spend-to-save, which I can only imagine you would support. But it has now been lost because it is electorally popular to bribe those of us who earn more than the median wage and will turn out and vote.

As I say, a disgrace and an abdication of responsibility.

[Mibbes Aye]

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-34326185

Holyrood funding made up the difference.
And it’s not just rich people who pay council tax. If it was then it would not be enough to win an election. Since 2007 when the freeze was introduced, council tax under Labour in Wales has gone up 32%. There are a lot of people on low income in large houses who are unfairly punished by the council tax and Labour had been treating it like a cash cow for years. It’s why the SNP were returned with a massive majority in 2011.
I’m all in favour of funding social services but if you can’t sell it to the population it’s not going to happen. It’s one of the reasons socialism always ends up in dictatorship, because it can’t survive in a democracy.


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I should have added that the two biggest things that local authorities have to cover, the two essentials, are education and social care.

Free personal care for adults is a policy commitment. The over-75 population is expected to treble over the next 20-30 years. Free personal care used to be only for over-65s but had to be extended to all adults, I suspect because it breached equalities legislation.

Councils have demographic and financial timebombs ticking away. They are starting to go off and will continue to go off.

Is Holyrood going to make up the difference for these new pressures or do we just stop collecting bins, clearing verges, giving planning permissions, doing environmental health checks in cafes and restaurants, and anything else the council does, because they won’t have the capacity or the money to do it?

[RyeSloan]

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It's actually £1277.40 but if you want to add in the water and sewerage costs it takes you to £1721.64

For Manchester the band D council tax is £1646.02 you've then got to add on the privatised water and sewerage charges.

Newcastle is worse at £1860.03 for band D.

Ahh fair point. Forgot about the rolled up water and sewerage charge. That certainly makes a big difference!

On a side note I’m not sure why water and sewage gets charged more per band...the value of a home doesn’t seem to be linked in any direct way to how much water it uses. Also due to it not metered what incentive is there for people to use it efficiently?

That said maybe it’s just easier not to charge for it separately. Some folk have enough trouble paying for the gas n leccy without putting water bills into the mix as well.

[grunt]

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On a side note I’m not sure why water and sewage gets charged more per band...the value of a home doesn’t seem to be linked in any direct way to how much water it uses?

I think you could apply that same argument to the Council Tax itself.

[ronaldo7]

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-34326185

Holyrood funding made up the difference.
And it’s not just rich people who pay council tax. If it was then it would not be enough to win an election. Since 2007 when the freeze was introduced, council tax under Labour in Wales has gone up 32%. There are a lot of people on low income in large houses who are unfairly punished by the council tax and Labour had been treating it like a cash cow for years. It’s why the SNP were returned with a massive majority in 2011.
I’m all in favour of funding social services but if you can’t sell it to the population it’s not going to happen. It’s one of the reasons socialism always ends up in dictatorship, because it can’t survive in a democracy.


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It's all in the Scottish government figures. The money was topped up. Some won't have it though. 😉

It only took the landslide in 2011 to get the other parties putting it in their manifestos at the next election.

[GlesgaeHibby]

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I think you could apply that same argument to the Council Tax itself.

Absolutely. A regressive and outdated method of taxation.

[Ozyhibby]

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Ahh fair point. Forgot about the rolled up water and sewerage charge. That certainly makes a big difference!

On a side note I’m not sure why water and sewage gets charged more per band...the value of a home doesn’t seem to be linked in any direct way to how much water it uses. Also due to it not metered what incentive is there for people to use it efficiently?

That said maybe it’s just easier not to charge for it separately. Some folk have enough trouble paying for the gas n leccy without putting water bills into the mix as well.

I suppose larger houses would mostly use more water as they often have more occupants and more bathrooms, larger gardens to water etc.
Personally I would meter water.


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[danhibees1875]

I wonder if metering water just isn't worth the admin costs. If people are using roughly the same amount or if it's cheap enough that even someone using a lot more is only going to pay a little extra £ then it's maybe just not worth it.

On the whole I think it's probably easiest just to have it as a fixed payment. It saves people having to worry about their use too much (which can be flipped around environmentally of course).

[Ozyhibby]

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I wonder if metering water just isn't worth the admin costs. If people are using roughly the same amount or if it's cheap enough that even someone using a lot more is only going to pay a little extra £ then it's maybe just not worth it.

On the whole I think it's probably easiest just to have it as a fixed payment. It saves people having to worry about their use too much (which can be flipped around environmentally of course).

I’m not sure. I do know that in Scotland we will never run out of water. We have as much as we will ever need so don’t need to worry about how much we use so you are possibly correct.


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[danhibees1875]

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I’m not sure. I do know that in Scotland we will never run out of water. We have as much as we will ever need so don’t need to worry about how much we use so you are possibly correct.


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I'm sure we have a lot of water. How much that could change in time I'm not sure.

Even if, as you say, we will never run out of water I'm not sure that is license to use it in as much excess as we want.

[RyeSloan]

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I’m not sure. I do know that in Scotland we will never run out of water. We have as much as we will ever need so don’t need to worry about how much we use so you are possibly correct.


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As you allude to there is a touch more to providing clean water to the population than just measuring how much falls from the sky.

The near £450 cost of water and sewerage for band D in Edinburgh also suggests providing such services is far from free so with a system where usage is effectively unlimited you do wonder how much that adds to the costs.

But as I said before it’s probably margin gains and introducing metering and billing comes with its own hazards so probably an area where if it ain’t broke don’t fix it comes to mind.

[Just_Jimmy]

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I could be totally wrong here, but don’t they pay separately for water in England, whereas here it’s built into your council tax?

That could make council tax in England appear lower, because we have another charge built in that they have separate

apologies if I’m totally incorrect ��

I literally said that in the post directly above

You are correct. It's a way of fudging the numbers.

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[McD]

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I literally said that in the post directly above

You are correct. It's a way of fudging the numbers.

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hahaha must have been typing at the same time