Post-truth society

[Hibernia&Alba]

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This is the kind of slanted rubbish we're dealing with:

I'm still a bit undecided about my vote direction this coming Thursday.

I've obviously taken into consideration what I consider to be the following swaying points on the two main parties.

On the one hand the Conservative Boris Johnson is a bit of a rascal with the ladies and can sometimes bend the truth a bit, he’s also a bit posh.

And on the other hand..

Labours Jeremy Corbyn Invited two IRA members to parliament two weeks after the Brighton bombing.

Attended Bloody Sunday commemoration with bomber Brendan McKenna.

Attended meeting with Provisional IRA member Raymond McCartney.

Hosted IRA linked Mitchell McLaughlin in parliament.

Spoke alongside IRA terrorist Martina Anderson.

Attended Sinn Fein dinner with IRA bomber Gerry Kelly.

Chaired Irish republican event with IRA bomber Brendan MacFarlane.

Attended Bobby Sands commemoration honouring IRA terrorists.

Stood in minute’s silence for IRA gunmen shot dead by the SAS.

Refused to condemn the IRA in Sky News interview.

Refused to condemn the IRA on Question Time.

Refused to condemn IRA violence in BBC radio interview.

Signed EDM after IRA Poppy massacre massacre blaming Britain for the deaths.

Arrested while protesting in support of Brighton bomber’s co-defendants.

Lobbied government to improve visiting conditions for IRA killers.

Attended Irish republican event calling for armed conflict against Britain.

Hired suspected IRA man Ronan Bennett as a parliamentary assistant.

Hired another aide closely linked to several convicted IRA terrorists.

Heavily involved with IRA sympathising newspaper London Labour Briefing.

Put up £20,000 bail money for IRA terror suspect Roisin McAliskey.

Didn’t support IRA ceasefire.

Said Hamas and Hezbollah are his “friends“.

Called for Hamas to be removed from terror banned list.

Called Hamas “serious and hard-working“.

Attended wreath-laying at grave of Munich massacre terrorist.

Attended conference with Hamas and PFLP.

Photographed smiling with Hezbollah flag.

Attended rally with Hezbollah and Al-Muhajiroun.

Repeatedly shared platforms with PFLP plane hijacker.

Hired aide who praised Hamas’ “spirit of resistance“.

Accepted £20,000 for state TV channel of terror-sponsoring Iranian regime.

Opposed banning Britons from travelling to Syria to fight for ISIS.

Defended rights of fighters returning from Syria.

Said ISIS supporters should not be prosecuted.

Compared fighters returning from Syria to Nelson Mandela.

Said the death of Osama Bin Laden was a “tragedy“.

Wouldn’t sanction drone strike to kill ISIS leader.

Voted to allow ISIS fighters to return from Syria.

Opposed shoot to kill.

Attended event organised by terrorist sympathising IHRC.

Signed letter defending Lockerbie bombing suspects.

Wrote letter in support of conman accused of fundraising for ISIS.

Spoke of “friendship” with Mo Kozbar, who called for destruction of Israel.

Attended event with Abdullah Djaballah, who called for holy war against UK.

Called drone strikes against terrorists “obscene”.

Boasted about “opposing anti-terror legislation”.

Said laws banning jihadis from returning to Britain are “strange”.

Accepted £5,000 donation from terror supporter Ted Honderich.

Accepted £2,800 trip to Gaza from banned Islamist organisation Interpal.

Called Ibrahim Hewitt, extremist and chair of Interpal, a “very good friend”.

Accepted two more trips from the pro-Hamas group PRC.

Speaker at conference hosted by pro-Hamas group MEMO.

Met Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh several times.

Hosted meeting with Mousa Abu Maria of banned group Islamic Jihad.

Patron of Palestine Solidarity Campaign – marches attended by Hezbollah.

Compared Israel to ISIS, Hamas, Hezbollah and al-Qaeda.

Said we should not make “value judgements” about Britons who fight for ISIS.

Received endorsement from Hamas.

Attended event with Islamic extremist Suliman Gani.

Chaired Stop the War, who praised “internationalism and solidarity” of ISIS.

Praised Raed Salah, who was jailed for inciting violence in Israel.

Signed letter defending jihadist advocacy group Cage.

Met Dyab Jahjah, who praised the killing of British soldiers.

Shared platform with representative of extremist cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

Compared ISIS to US military in interview on Russia Today.

Opposed proscription of Hizb ut-Tahrir.

Attended conference which called on Iraqis to kill British soldiers.

Attended Al-Quds Day demonstration in support of destruction of Israel.

Supported Hamas and ISIS-linked Viva Palestina group.

Attended protest with Islamic extremist Moazzam Begg.

Made the “case for Iran” at event hosted by Khomeinist group.

Photographed smiling with Azzam Tamimi, who backed suicide bombings.

Photographed with Abdel Atwan, who sympathised with attacks on US troops.

Said Hamas should “have tea with the Queen”.

Attended ‘Meet the Resistance’ event with Hezbollah MP Hussein El Haj.

Attended event with Haifa Zangana, who praised Palestinian “mujahideen”.

Defended the infamous anti-Semitic Hamas supporter Stephen Sizer.

Attended event with pro-Hamas and Hezbollah group Naturei Karta.

Backed Holocaust denying anti-Zionist extremist Paul Eisen.

Photographed with Abdul Raoof Al Shayeb, later jailed for terror offences.

Mocked “anti-terror hysteria” while opposing powers for security services.

Named on speakers list for conference with Hamas sympathiser Ismail Patel.

Criticised drone strike that killed Jihadi John.

Said the 7/7 bombers had been denied “hope and opportunity”.

Said 9/11 was “manipulated” to make it look like bin Laden was responsible.

Failed to unequivocally condemn the 9/11 attacks.

Called Columbian terror group M-19 “comrades”.

Blamed beheading of Alan Henning on Britain.

Gave speech in support of Gaddafi regime.

Signed EDM spinning for Slobodan Milosevic.

Blamed Tunisia terror attack on “austerity”.

Voted against banning support for the IRA.

Voted against the Prevention of Terrorism Act three times during the Troubles.

Voted against emergency counter-terror laws after 9/11.

Voted against stricter punishments for being a member of a terror group.

Voted against criminalising the encouragement of terrorism.

Voted against banning al-Qaeda.

Voted against outlawing the glorification of terror.

Voted against control orders.

Voted against increased funding for the security services to combat terrorism.

So it’s a tricky one really

I assume you have copied and pasted this libelous rubbish? From which right wing nutter/publication does it originate? There are ex-IRA and ex-UDA/UVF bombers who are elected MLAs/MPS/and MEPs, including a number you cite: Anderson, McLaughlin, Kelly; and remember, Martin McGuinness was a Deputy First minister! It was vital to bring Sinn Fein into the political process, so that the conflict could end, and Corbyn was one of those politicians who was ahead of the game in trying to engage with them to that end. Others, such as Tony Benn, did the same, but that doesn't mean they supported bombings and shootings. They were honest and open, whilst the Thatcher/Major governments also spoke to Sinn Fein/IRA via back channels, in the hope of ending of conflict, but lied to the public by denying it.

[Fuzzywuzzy]

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I assume you have copied and pasted this libelous rubbish? From which right wing nutter/publication does it originate? There are ex-IRA and ex-UDA/UVF bombers who are elected MLAs/MPS/and MEPs, including a number you cite: Anderson, McLaughlin, Kelly; and remember, Martin McGuinness was a Deputy First minister! It was vital to bring Sinn Fein into the political process, so that the conflict could end, and Corbyn was one of those politicians who was ahead of the game in trying to engage with them to that end. Others, such as Tony Benn, did the same, but that doesn't mean they supported bombings and shootings. They were honest and open, whilst the Thatcher/Major governments also spoke to Sinn Fein/IRA via back channels, in the hope of ending of conflict, but lied to the public by denying it.

Think you've been whooshed

[Hibrandenburg]

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Think you've been whooshed

That would involve me laying a whoosh trap, I didn't, he's whoosed himself

[JeMeSouviens]

Corbyn is an old school Lefty surrounded by Communists (Milne, Fisher, Murray etc.) He danced around the fringes of support for "national liberation" movements because that was how Lenin proposed propagating the revolution. It sounds farcical in 2019 but it's true.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...tion_(Marxism)

[Ozyhibby]

Tories way out in front when it comes to telling lies.
https://members.tortoisemedia.com/20...m_content=lies



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[One Day Soon]

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Tories way out in front when it comes to telling lies.
https://members.tortoisemedia.com/20...m_content=lies



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So, they're literally all liars.

[Ozyhibby]

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So, they're literally all liars.

Tories are 8 times worse than the snp though.


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[lapsedhibee]

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So, they're literally all liars.

Yes, in the same way that everyone having a weight over 1kg suggests that everyone's overweight.

[One Day Soon]

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Tories are 8 times worse than the snp though.


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Absolutely, but "I don't lie as much as he does" isn't exactly a commendation is it?

[One Day Soon]

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Yes, in the same way that everyone having a weight over 1kg suggests that everyone's overweight.

Surely everyone has a weight over 1kg?

Anyway, it really isn't the same at all. You're either a liar or you're not. A bit like being a virgin or not...

[lapsedhibee]

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Surely everyone has a weight over 1kg?

Anyway, it really isn't the same at all. You're either a liar or you're not. A bit like being a virgin or not...

Everyone has a weight over 1kg, and everyone tells untruths of some sort (perhaps, in extreme cases, only to themselves). To lump Plaid 2 and Conservative 140 in the same camp, as you have done, is to deliberately misinterpret what the chart illustrated clearly. You must be a Lib Dem.

[One Day Soon]

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Everyone has a weight over 1kg, and everyone tells untruths of some sort (perhaps, in extreme cases, only to themselves). To lump Plaid 2 and Conservative 140 in the same camp, as you have done, is to deliberately misinterpret what the chart illustrated clearly. You must be a Lib Dem.

The chart clearly claims that they all lie, otherwise one or more of them would have a zero or negative score for 'severity of untruth'. The Tories obviously lie way more often or more fundamentally - or both - than the rest given the figures, but nevertheless they all lie. To deny that is to deliberately misinterpret the chart.

[jonty]

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The chart clearly claims that they all lie, otherwise one or more of them would have a zero or negative score for 'severity of untruth'. The Tories obviously lie way more often or more fundamentally - or both - than the rest given the figures, but nevertheless they all lie. To deny that is to deliberately misinterpret the chart.

The figures don't consist or pure 'untruths'. Its worth reading the article to get context.

But what, in the context of a hard-fought election, actually counts as an “untruth”?
We have used a broad definition to cover statements or manipulations or misrepresentations where politicians strayed from the truth: ranging from the misleading remark to the outright lie.
Over half of the false claims we scrutinised were straightforward errors or exaggerations about facts. One of the smallest was Jeremy Corbyn’s mistaken claim that the UK is the world’s fifth richest country – it’s recently moved down to sixth (or ninth, depending on which measure you use). Not the worst untruth of the campaign, but still an error that a prospective prime minister probably should not make.
Some of these untruths can be classed as “omissions”: claims that miss out important information, such as Siân Berry’s statement during the ITV leaders’ debate that funding for bus services has been cut by nearly half. Full Fact found that this statistic came from a report that, rather significantly, ignores the full picture.
Then there were the conjectures: things that can be neither proven nor disproven, like the SNP saying that Scotland has subsidised the rest of the UK in most of the last 40-year period. Channel 4 found that lack of data makes this impossible to know either way. Again, not a Nixon-level lie: but still a potentially misleading statement.

[lapsedhibee]

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The chart clearly claims that they all lie, otherwise one or more of them would have a zero or negative score for 'severity of untruth'. The Tories obviously lie way more often or more fundamentally - or both - than the rest given the figures, but nevertheless they all lie. To deny that is to deliberately misinterpret the chart.

The chart doesn't really 'claim' that all parties lie. It doesn't have to. The survey does attempt to measure the extent of the lying that goes on, and the presentation of results breaks that down by party, among other things. If it wasn't attempting to compare the results between parties, it wouldn't use a huge circle to represent the Conservatives and a tiny circle to represent Plaid.

[McSwanky]

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You're either a liar or you're not. A bit like being a virgin or not...

Are you being serious?

[Hibernia&Alba]

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That would involve me laying a whoosh trap, I didn't, he's whoosed himself

Sorry, to be clear, I'm not suggesting you wrote it or believe it. I noted the first line of your post; just pointing out that it's a Daily Mail wish list you have quoted that is outrageous and inaccurate.

[One Day Soon]

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The figures don't consist or pure 'untruths'. Its worth reading the article to get context.

I would suggest that something that set out to measure everything from a misleading remark through to an outright lie and everything in between and which then dumbs all that down into one graphic titled 'severity of untruths' is, in itself, misleading.

I guess we can conclude however that they all 'untruth' in varying measures.

[One Day Soon]

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Are you being serious?

It is a bit difficult to be partly or mostly a virgin...

[McSwanky]

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It is a bit difficult to be partly or mostly a virgin...

Very good. You're at the wind up. An appropriate thread for you to be posting on!

[One Day Soon]

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Very good. You're at the wind up. An appropriate thread for you to be posting on!

I have literally no idea what you are trying to say.

[McSwanky]

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I have literally no idea what you are trying to say.

Ever told a lie in your life? Aye/Naw.

Ever had sex in your life? Aye/Naw.

NB You don't need to answer. I'm just illustrating a point.

You're massively over simplifying the issue to suit your agenda.

100% of people will answer aye to the first question. (Unless they're lying. Again.)

Less than 100% of people will answer aye to the second question.

So equating 'being a liar' with 'being a virgin' is a nonsense.

"You're either a liar or not" is a true statement, but completely irrelevant as everyone is a liar.

You can't lump the guy who told his child Santa exists in with the guy who said he wasn't a mass murderer when he had killed 100s of people. That's just ludicrous - it's a sliding scale.

[One Day Soon]

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Ever told a lie in your life? Aye/Naw.

Ever had sex in your life? Aye/Naw.

NB You don't need to answer. I'm just illustrating a point.

You're massively over simplifying the issue to suit your agenda.

100% of people will answer aye to the first question. (Unless they're lying. Again.)

Less than 100% of people will answer aye to the second question.

So equating 'being a liar' with 'being a virgin' is a nonsense.

"You're either a liar or not" is a true statement, but completely irrelevant as everyone is a liar.

You can't lump the guy who told his child Santa exists in with the guy who said he wasn't a mass murderer when he had killed 100s of people. That's just ludicrous - it's a sliding scale.

That's mostly all true apart from the agenda simplifying bit. In the context of this debate, according to the graphic, they have all told 'untruths', whichever way we want to interpret the untruth term. In this context the virgin analogy seems fine to me. Either they are liars or they are not. Once we've established that we can then see who lies worst or least. But they still ALL 'untruth' apparently.

It seems to me that the attempt to simplify things into the graphic is where this all falls down, but then that's social media driven 'fact' consumption for you. It seems there always just HAS to be black and white...

[danhibees1875]

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That's mostly all true apart from the agenda simplifying bit. In the context of this debate, according to the graphic, they have all told 'untruths', whichever way we want to interpret the untruth term. In this context the virgin analogy seems fine to me. Either they are liars or they are not. Once we've established that we can then see who lies worst or least. But they still ALL 'untruth' apparently.

It seems to me that the attempt to simplify things into the graphic is where this all falls down, but then that's social media driven 'fact' consumption for you. It seems there always just HAS to be black and white...

The graph is showing the scale to which people lie.

If it wanted to be black and white they'd just say "they all lie" and end it and that.

[lapsedhibee]

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That's mostly all true apart from the agenda simplifying bit.

How can something be mostly all true?

Something's either mostly true or it's all true.

'Mostly all true' would be like being 'mostly a virgin'.

[JeMeSouviens]

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That's mostly all true apart from the agenda simplifying bit. In the context of this debate, according to the graphic, they have all told 'untruths', whichever way we want to interpret the untruth term. In this context the virgin analogy seems fine to me. Either they are liars or they are not. Once we've established that we can then see who lies worst or least. But they still ALL 'untruth' apparently.

It seems to me that the attempt to simplify things into the graphic is where this all falls down, but then that's social media driven 'fact' consumption for you. It seems there always just HAS to be black and white...

Aren't you the one trying to make it binary? I think most are seeing it in shades of grey. Where most parties are a bit grey to some extent and the Tories are out on their own at almost jet black.

[Ozyhibby]

Not all untruths are equal. Sturgeon got pulled up in the debate for saying that 75% of our energy was from renewables. This is not true, it’s only 75% of our electricity that comes from renewables. Transport and home heating have miles to go yet. So it’s an untruth but it’s not hard to imagine that Nicola Sturgeon maybe made a mistake here rather than deliberately mislead.
When Johnson says he’s going to build 40 hospitals it’s hard to see that as a bare faced lie when he can’t name them or tell us where.


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[lapsedhibee]

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So it’s an untruth but it’s not hard to imagine that Nicola Sturgeon maybe made a mistake here rather than deliberately mislead.
When Johnson says he’s going to build 40 hospitals it’s hard to see that as a bare faced lie when he can’t name them or tell us where.

Ridiculously high bar when you consider that he probably can't name or tell the whereabouts of all his five/six/seven/ish children.

[One Day Soon]

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The graph is showing the scale to which people lie.

If it wanted to be black and white they'd just say "they all lie" and end it and that.

Apparently it isn't. It's showing 'untruths' which are not quite as simple as lies...

I agree, it is showing the scale to which people 'untruth'. But it also shows that they do indeed all 'untruth'.

[One Day Soon]

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How can something be mostly all true?

Something's either mostly true or it's all true.

'Mostly all true' would be like being 'mostly a virgin'.

Completely right, terrible grammar on my part. It should have said 'mostly true'.

On the second point, there's a Micky Flanagan sketch on the demise of a certain activity that may have relevance here.

[One Day Soon]

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Aren't you the one trying to make it binary? I think most are seeing it in shades of grey. Where most parties are a bit grey to some extent and the Tories are out on their own at almost jet black.

Not at all. They all lie according to the graph, but some lie a lot more or a lot worse than others.