General election 2019

[StevieC]

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For what it's worth I would abolish the council tax as a way of raising local government funds, as it's related to property value, and replace it with a local income tax which is based upon earnings and is therefore truly in line with ability to pay. However, that's another issue.

Wouldn’t the demographics of residents within properties make that a lot harder to find a fairer way of taxing those that could afford it? One three bedroom house could potentially have 4 earners (given the difficulty for young people to buy) compared to a retired person next door in identical property?
I live in a cul-de-sac with about 20 similar properties, with hugely different income/outgoing set ups throughout. Won’t be long before my kids reach working age, couple next door are retired on low pension, guy over the road is businessman (their kids have left home and his wife doesn’t work), next to him retired couple on really good pensions.
When I moved from a two bedroom flat to a 3 bedroom house the council tax increase wasn’t something I could honestly say I felt aggrieved by. Bigger house bigger costs, seemed logical.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Wouldn’t the demographics of residents within properties make that a lot harder to find a fairer way of taxing those that could afford it? One three bedroom house could potentially have 4 earners (given the difficulty for young people to buy) compared to a retired person next door in identical property?
I live in a cul-de-sac with about 20 similar properties, with hugely different income/outgoing set ups throughout. Won’t be long before my kids reach working age, couple next door are retired on low pension, guy over the road is businessman (their kids have left home and his wife doesn’t work), next to him retired couple on really good pensions.
When I moved from a two bedroom flat to a 3 bedroom house the council tax increase wasn’t something I could honestly say I felt aggrieved by. Bigger house bigger costs, seemed logical.

I see what you are saying but the house itself doesn't use the services provided by the Council, the occupants do. 4 occupants will obviously create more rubbish to be taken away than a single occupancy household.

I live in a small hamlet with no footpaths, streetlighting, sewers, I don't have children at school but I contribute to all these services through the Council Tax.

A tax on property is not an equitable form of taxation because you might have a widow in a 4 bedroom house who pays the same as the 5 person household next door (less the single occupancy rebate)

All IMHO of course

[StevieC]

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Why not? It would be a win - win for Nationalists who support Brexit. If the Tories gain a majority and Brexit happens as looks likely the pressure in Scotland for another referendum will be greatly increased.

I agree. A Tory Brexit, in whatever form, will only increase the chances of Independence. However, given Boris’s stance on an Independence referendum, the best outcome for the SNP would be to hoover up Tory seats in Scotland (including Swinson) and hope that the Tories manage to get a working majority south of the border.
The worst possible outcome, IMO, would be a hung parliament with Labour getting into power based on a good SNP result in Scotland. Labour would promise so much for Scotland (wheel out Gordon Brown) that it would make winning an Independence referendum extremely difficult.

[CloudSquall]

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They are going to say that regardless of the result.

True, but I'd rather have 45+ SNP MPs to weaken their argument further.

[StevieC]

Hopefully my reply comes across in the “non-argumentative” way I’m hoping

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I see what you are saying but the house itself doesn't use the services provided by the Council, the occupants do. 4 occupants will obviously create more rubbish to be taken away than a single occupancy household.

Three years ago I would have agreed with that. Now we all have 1 small bin for our rubbish (which was a real struggle for us when it happened), but the emphasis on recycling has totally transformed the way we deal with rubbish. I now have a similar amount of rubbish as the neighbours, but almost full 2 bins of recycling (which the council actually make money on).
However, as you point out below, council tax isn’t just about rubbish.

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I live in a small hamlet with no footpaths, streetlighting, sewers, I don't have children at school but I contribute to all these services through the Council Tax.

There are lots of services that council tax covers that many people will not benefit from. Water usage will be different, social care, disability support, public transport, schooling, parking. Lots of things all bundled in together that a lot of people will never see the benefit of. I would say I edge toward socialism though, so this sits okay with me.

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A tax on property is not an equitable form of taxation because you might have a widow in a 4 bedroom house who pays the same as the 5 person household next door (less the single occupancy rebate)

Rebates might be the way to go. Whether it be single occupancy or means tested. Although the Tories felt the need to go in the opposite direction with the bedroom tax!

[Moulin Yarns]

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Rebates might be the way to go. Whether it be single occupancy or means tested. Although the Tories felt the need to go in the opposite direction with the bedroom tax!

There are lots of problems with means testing, The National Audit Office reported lots of issues with coordination, and the cost effectiveness of means testing. I'd be happier with a personal accountability system which may be, but not necessarily, an income based taxation.

Slightly at a tangent, there were proposals in our council area to weigh waste at source, e.g. every wheelie bin would be chipped, bar coded, whatever, so that the collection was scanned and weighed and bills generated according to waste generated. Not sure how far it got before I left the council.

Anyways, we have gone way off topic This can be all fixed after independence when the Scottish Greens are in charge

[Frankhfc]

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There are lots of problems with means testing, The National Audit Office reported lots of issues with coordination, and the cost effectiveness of means testing. I'd be happier with a personal accountability system which may be, but not necessarily, an income based taxation.

Slightly at a tangent, there were proposals in our council area to weigh waste at source, e.g. every wheelie bin would be chipped, bar coded, whatever, so that the collection was scanned and weighed and bills generated according to waste generated. Not sure how far it got before I left the council.

Anyways, we have gone way off topic This can be all fixed after independence when the Scottish Greens are in charge

I've already had issues with other neighbours deliberately putting their waste into my own and others wheelie bins. That would become far more of a problem with you're proposal as would fly tipping. Some people would simply stop using their bins and quietly fill up their neighbours instead or take it elsewhere and possibly dump it illegally. It wouldn't work and could easily generate far greater issues.

[Ozyhibby]

Big difference in spending plans for the three unionist parties.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

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Wouldn’t the demographics of residents within properties make that a lot harder to find a fairer way of taxing those that could afford it? One three bedroom house could potentially have 4 earners (given the difficulty for young people to buy) compared to a retired person next door in identical property?
I live in a cul-de-sac with about 20 similar properties, with hugely different income/outgoing set ups throughout. Won’t be long before my kids reach working age, couple next door are retired on low pension, guy over the road is businessman (their kids have left home and his wife doesn’t work), next to him retired couple on really good pensions.
When I moved from a two bedroom flat to a 3 bedroom house the council tax increase wasn’t something I could honestly say I felt aggrieved by. Bigger house bigger costs, seemed logical.

I think there are far too many unfair anomalies with property tax. As you say, one house may have four earners and the house next door only one, yet they may pay the same council tax. The old rates system also created far too many such injustices. A local income tax would be proportionate, based upon the earnings of each person in the house. I think breaking the link between government funding and property values and instead tying it to income would be much fairer.

[Frankhfc]

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I think there are far too many unfair anomalies with property tax. As you say, one house may have four earners and the house next door only one, yet they may pay the same council tax. The old rates system also created far too many such injustices. A local income tax would be proportionate, based upon the earnings of each person in the house. I think breaking the link between government funding and property values and instead tying it to income would be much fairer.

Sounds eerily like Thatcher's poll tax.

[Hibernia&Alba]

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Sounds eerily like Thatcher's poll tax.

Certainly not. That was a flat tax where everybody paid the same and was very regressive. A local income tax would reflect ability to pay, just like national income tax does. Those on a low wage would contribute little and pay less than the current council tax, very high earners would pay more than at present.

[Frankhfc]

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Certainly not. That was a flat tax where everybody paid the same and was very regressive. A local income tax would reflect ability to pay, just like national income tax does. Those on a low wage would contribute little and pay less than the current council tax, very high earners would pay more than at present.

Thanks for explaining the difference.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Sounds eerily like Thatcher's poll tax.

Not really. Everyone was hit with the same amount in the poll tax, a personal tax which is related to the ability to pay is very different.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Scrapping Trident would be one of the SNP's key demands to gain its support in the event of a minority Labour government, says Nicola Sturgeon.

The SNP is willing to support a Labour government if no party wins an overall majority - but the SNP leader has ruled out a formal coalition.
Ms Sturgeon also wants Labour to stop Brexit and commit to an independence referendum next year.

The Labour manifesto includes a pledge to renew the Trident nuclear deterrent.


good, and the older i get the more i want WMD's OUT of this country, let them site trident down south...anywhere along the thames sounds nice

[Ozyhibby]

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[Ozyhibby]

I wonder if Labour’s offer to waspi women will move the polls. It’s a flat out bribe to 3.5m women and in an age group Labour struggle with. It can be a lot of money for these women though at about £15k each.


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[Helensburghhibs]

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Scrapping Trident would be one of the SNP's key demands to gain its support in the event of a minority Labour government, says Nicola Sturgeon.

The SNP is willing to support a Labour government if no party wins an overall majority - but the SNP leader has ruled out a formal coalition.
Ms Sturgeon also wants Labour to stop Brexit and commit to an independence referendum next year.

The Labour manifesto includes a pledge to renew the Trident nuclear deterrent.


good, and the older i get the more i want WMD's OUT of this country, let them site trident down south...anywhere along the thames sounds nice

The only side affect of trident in Scotland is jobs. This claim that it makes Scotland a target is complete tosh (that is why we house them on submarines) just look at Dunoon and the area around holy Loch if you want to see the effects of a area collapsing after losing a major base

[CloudSquall]

The dark side of me would rather hold on to the nukes for now and then upon independence charge the rest of the UK an absolute fortune to host them until they had a base adequate to hold them.

[Ozyhibby]

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The only side affect of trident in Scotland is jobs. This claim that it makes Scotland a target is complete tosh (that is why we house them on submarines) just look at Dunoon and the area around holy Loch if you want to see the effects of a area collapsing after losing a major base

All those jobs are paid for using taxation which means jobs are lost elsewhere in the economy.


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[Helensburghhibs]

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All those jobs are paid for using taxation which means jobs are lost elsewhere in the economy.


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I don't think the guys who work here would be sympathetic to that argument though? Does anyone know the snp stance on nuclear submarines in general? Is it solely trident or is it also nuclear power?

[Hibernia&Alba]

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I don't think the guys who work here would be sympathetic to that argument though? Does anyone know the snp stance on nuclear submarines in general? Is it solely trident or is it also nuclear power?

More importantly, is it just nuclear weapons or also nuclear power that they oppose, like the Greens? Germany, the most powerful economy in Europe, has committed itself to being entirely nuclear free, and I think they are setting an excellent example.

[Ozyhibby]

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I don't think the guys who work here would be sympathetic to that argument though? Does anyone know the snp stance on nuclear submarines in general? Is it solely trident or is it also nuclear power?

Of course we need to be wary of vested interests. The fact is, trident costs a fortune (£200bn +) and it is never used. There is a lot more Scotland could do with its share of that money. It works out at about £2m per job in Scotland so not really value for money for us. And not all the jobs need to go. The base could still be used.


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[Ozyhibby]

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More importantly, is it just nuclear weapons or also nuclear power that they oppose, like the Greens? Germany, the most powerful economy in Europe, has committed itself to being entirely nuclear free, and I think they are setting an excellent example.

They oppose nuclear power although personally I have nothing against it. The problem is that it is far too expensive just now to make it worthwhile.


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[Frankhfc]

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Scrapping Trident would be one of the SNP's key demands to gain its support in the event of a minority Labour government, says Nicola Sturgeon.

The SNP is willing to support a Labour government if no party wins an overall majority - but the SNP leader has ruled out a formal coalition.
Ms Sturgeon also wants Labour to stop Brexit and commit to an independence referendum next year.

The Labour manifesto includes a pledge to renew the Trident nuclear deterrent.


good, and the older i get the more i want WMD's OUT of this country, let them site trident down south...anywhere along the thames sounds nice

Hopefully get shot of the BBC licence fee asap too. I never watch BBC yet expected to pay around 140 pounds per year for it. We'll be well rid.

[Bristolhibby]

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The dark side of me would rather hold on to the nukes for now and then upon independence charge the rest of the UK an absolute fortune to host them until they had a base adequate to hold them.

This. Massive bargaining chip. Plus we would benefit from the collective protection that they give.

Win-win.

J

[Bristolhibby]

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Of course we need to be wary of vested interests. The fact is, trident costs a fortune (£200bn +) and it is never used. There is a lot more Scotland could do with its share of that money. It works out at about £2m per job in Scotland so not really value for money for us. And not all the jobs need to go. The base could still be used.


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TBF the whole point of Trident is to never use it. By not using it, it is doing its job.

It’s called the Deterrent for that very reason.

J

[Frankhfc]

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This. Massive bargaining chip. Plus we would benefit from the collective protection that they give.

Win-win.

J

Not going to happen. Nicola's already stated the intention is for them to be ejected from Scotland.

[Bristolhibby]

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Not going to happen. Nicola's already stated the intention is for them to be ejected from Scotland.

I guess it will be up to the first Independently elected Scottish government to decide.

J

[The Modfather]

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TBF the whole point of Trident is to never use it. By not using it, it is doing its job.

It’s called the Deterrent for that very reason.

J

Who or what is Trident deterring? What would be different if we didn’t have a nuclear deterrent? It’s more about ego and “status” than a practical deterrent IMO.

That’s a genuine question btw, as I’m not particularly knowledgeable about Trident. Perhaps too simplistically, short of a rogue terrorist attack akin to a series straight out of 24, I can’t ever envisage any country using it in any set of circumstances. Imagine what good the money it costs could do each year.

[Callum_62]

I don't buy this deterrent argument anyway

Didn't do Iraq any good when they supposedly had WMDs

In other news the Tories are SURGING in Scotland according to the express and a latest poll

I always say, never trust a paper that uses capitalisation in there headlines

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