General election 2019

[G B Young]

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I said a few weeks ago that, in politics, a generation refers to the length of a government. 5 years is a political generation as every new government brings change. Are you suggesting that we, the electorate, shouldn't get to change a government every 5 years if we think things are not working?

Salmond wasn't referring to a political generation though (and it's news to me that there is such a thing). He described the referendum as 'a rare and precious moment in the history of Scotland - a once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way'. He even suggested in was a 'once in a lifetime' opportunity in an interview with Andrew Marr.

[Peevemor]

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Salmond wasn't referring to a political generation though (and it's news to me that there is such a thing). He described the referendum as 'a rare and precious moment in the history of Scotland - a once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way'. He even suggested in was a 'once in a lifetime' opportunity in an interview with Andrew Marr.

But none of that was official. Nothing Salmond said in interviews was set in stone yet some people would have us believe otherwise.

[G B Young]

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But none of that was official. Nothing Salmond said in interviews was set in stone yet some people would have us believe otherwise.

I was quoting from the Scottish Government's white paper 'Scotland's Future' which I'd suggest was pretty authoritative.

[G B Young]

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I can see the other side of the argument and understand why people consider his stance a 'weak' one. However, your comparison couldn't be more ridiculous given Sturgeon is the leader of a political party who's raison d'etre is independence 😆

Sturgeon herself has called out closet Brexiteer Corbyn today over his weasel words about being an 'honest broker':

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/elec...ost_type=share

[Moulin Yarns]

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Salmond wasn't referring to a political generation though (and it's news to me that there is such a thing). He described the referendum as 'a rare and precious moment in the history of Scotland - a once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way'. He even suggested in was a 'once in a lifetime' opportunity in an interview with Andrew Marr.

How do you know what he was referring to? A political generation by definition is the term of any government, the Thatcher political generation was longer than the Gordon brown one.

[Pete]

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Sturgeon herself has called out closet Brexiteer Corbyn today over his weasel words about being an 'honest broker':

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/elec...ost_type=share

'Weasel words'.

I'm not sure your hatred of Mr Corbyn is entirely healthy.

[RyeSloan]

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I said a few weeks ago that, in politics, a generation refers to the length of a government. 5 years is a political generation as every new government brings change. Are you suggesting that we, the electorate, shouldn't get to change a government every 5 years if we think things are not working?

Classic straw man at the end there.

[Mibbes Aye]

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I said a few weeks ago that, in politics, a generation refers to the length of a government. 5 years is a political generation as every new government brings change. Are you suggesting that we, the electorate, shouldn't get to change a government every 5 years if we think things are not working?

I have never, ever, heard anyone refer to a 5-year government as a generation and my original degree was in politics. One government is not a political generation, it takes much more than that.

I think you are making things up, I’m afraid.

[Cataplana]

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I have never, ever, heard anyone refer to a 5-year government as a generation and my original degree was in politics. One government is not a political generation, it takes much more than that.

I think you are making things up, I’m afraid.

Why all the arguing about what a generation is, when we all know what a change of circumstances (such as leaving the EU) is?

[Mibbes Aye]

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Why all the arguing about what a generation is, when we all know what a change of circumstances (such as leaving the EU) is?

I don’t see any arguing. Moulin Yarns keeps repeating his point and I merely posted that I think it’s entirely false.

[Cataplana]

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I don’t see any arguing. Moulin Yarns keeps repeating his point and I merely posted that I think it’s entirely false.

I meant, in general, honest.

[Ozyhibby]

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[Hibernia&Alba]

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Tories up three points, after last night's performance by Johnson? If that poll is accurate, almost half the country thinks the Tories are the best option . I don't know how this is possible; the world is insane.

[CallumLaidlaw]

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Tories up three points, after last night's performance by Johnson? If that poll is accurate, almost half the country thinks the Tories are the best option . I don't know how this possible; the world is insane.

Is that not a week old that poll?


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[lapsedhibee]

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Tories up three points, after last night's performance by Johnson? If that poll is accurate, almost half the country thinks the Tories are the best option . I don't know how this is possible; the world is insane.

Perhaps because more people will have seen/heard the Tory press (etc)'s comments on the performance than will have seen the performance itself? Sturgeon was easily the best performer, but you wouldn't get any sense of that from Kuenssberg's reporting.

[lapsedhibee]

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He could well have had a tip off about when The Ape was visiting though, and made sure he was in to visit.

Yes, not impossible that he did plan to berate Johnson on camera. Pure bonus that while he was doing it Johnson claimed, on camera, that there were no cameras there.

[Jones28]

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How the **** is this happening?!?!?

[Ozyhibby]

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How the **** is this happening?!?!?

I think this is likely to be an outlier but the reality is there is not much appetite for what Corbyn is selling.


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[Mibbes Aye]

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Perhaps because more people will have seen/heard the Tory press (etc)'s comments on the performance than will have seen the performance itself? Sturgeon was easily the best performer, but you wouldn't get any sense of that from Kuenssberg's reporting.

I didn’t see the debate, busy with family stuff and haven’t watched it on catch-up. I read a bit about it on here, though that’s not exactly balanced

I did read the analysis of it by Andrew Sparrow and his colleagues who do the daily Politics Live on the Guardian website.

I don’t think any of them are natural Tories but I have read their summary and analysis of PMQs and the like for a long time now and it has always felt relatively even-handed.

Their summary was that Johnson wasn’t fantastic but said the right things to the people he needs to speak to. Playing it safe with voters who should be his but might wobble.

Corbyn was weak and got better, but not game-chagingly better. He put to bed the issue about him and Brexit by declaring neutrality but that opens up internal dissent, given a greater number of the party membership favour Remain than voted for Corbyn.

Swinson seemed to have a nightmare. The Guardian said that she did have the most hostile questioning and little in the way of audience support, compared to the others, which probably doesn’t reflect the polls. What I found interesting was that there was a lot of studio flak about the commitment to revoke Brexit directly, rather than go to a second referendum. I have not seen any polling about simply revoking Brexit - is it really that unpopular? I know there are arguments about democracy and the will of the people etc, I’m more curious about how many people support a simple revocation.

Sturgeon was praised for being a bit above it all and a bit more measured. But it was also acknowledged that the context of the debate made life a lot easier for her.

I might try and watch it on catch-up if I can find the time.

[Pete]

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Polls schmoles.

[Hibernia&Alba]

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I think this is likely to be an outlier but the reality is there is not much appetite for what Corbyn is selling.


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It's odd; we are told millions of people are angry that the economy isn't working for them, that their lives are a constant struggle, and that, as a result anti-establishment feelings are rife, hence the Brexit vote. However, the anti-establishment sentiment hasn't touched the Conservative Party, as the polls suggest that old Etonian establishment figures such as Johnson and Rees-Mogg are far more popular than a Labour manifesto which genuinely offers radical change. Why are millions willing to blame the EU for all our problems yet let their own government, which has forced a decade of austerity upon them, off the hook? I think a great deal of public perceptions are strongly influenced by the media, as the right wing press have spent decades demonising the EU whilst lauding Tory governments. This juxtaposition has been very influential, in my opinion.

[cabbageandribs1875]

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i just can't understand why the electorate are not falling for all the freebies from labours santa jeremy...it's baffling

[Frankhfc]

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It's odd; we are told millions of people are angry that the economy isn't working for them, that their lives are a constant struggle, and that, as a result anti-establishment feelings are rife, hence the Brexit vote. However, the anti-establishment sentiment hasn't touched the Conservative Party, as the polls suggest that old Etonian establishment figures such as Johnson and Rees-Mogg are far more popular than a Labour manifesto which genuinely offers radical change. Why are millions willing to blame the EU for all our problems yet let their own government, which has forced a decade of austerity upon them, off the hook? I think a great deal of public perceptions are strongly influenced by the media, as the right wing press have spent decades demonising the EU whilst lauding Tory governments. This juxtaposition has been very influential, in my opinion.

I don't think anyone can blame the press primarily because there's a choice of reading available. People aren't forced to read right leaning newspapers. They could just as easily pick up the Guardian, The Mirror or even the broadly centre left Independent. My own choice the Guardian is a left wing newspaper and if someone else wants to pick up the Daily Express for example that is entirely their choice to do so and having the freedom to choose is rightful in my opinion.

[Frankhfc]

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I think this is likely to be an outlier but the reality is there is not much appetite for what Corbyn is selling.


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I'd be stunned if that poll was accurate.

I agree Corbyn is unappealing with his brexit stance bewildering but the tories won't have that kind of support despite Corbyn.

[Hibrandenburg]

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He's not 'indifferent' as some put it, he recognises that there are two large groups of people with differing views who need to be brought together.

Far from being a weakness, it's a mature stance to take and shows the kind of leadership that is necessary in such a situation. Also, what would you think would happen to a leader who campaigns for one outcome and loses?

Far from being a revelation, last night's statement of neutrality was a dumbing down for those who operate at a certain base and need things spelled out for them.

Far from being something to latch onto and weaponise, it should be seen for what it is...a common sense approach to the situation that brings people together, not divides them further.

Corbyn has dedicated his life to being the middle man, I don't mean that in a bad way. To arbitrate peace you can't be seen to favour one side or the other. The British press have been so successful in their hatchet job on him that it's all but forgotten he also met with Israelis and Protestant paramilitaries, if you believe the press (and many do) then Corbyn is the embodiment of evil. He will never shake that image and is therefore unelectable.

[Mibbes Aye]

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It's odd; we are told millions of people are angry that the economy isn't working for them, that their lives are a constant struggle, and that, as a result anti-establishment feelings are rife, hence the Brexit vote. However, the anti-establishment sentiment hasn't touched the Conservative Party, as the polls suggest that old Etonian establishment figures such as Johnson and Rees-Mogg are far more popular than a Labour manifesto which genuinely offers radical change. Why are millions willing to blame the EU for all our problems yet let their own government, which has forced a decade of austerity upon them, off the hook? I think a great deal of public perceptions are strongly influenced by the media, as the right wing press have spent decades demonising the EU whilst lauding Tory governments. This juxtaposition has been very influential, in my opinion.

I would suggest the last five, even ten years have been a game changer when it comes to media influence.

People get their news feed online and through social media nowadays. And they often favour feeds that chime with their own views, which just reinforces silo-thinking.

You only need to look on here, where Twitter and blog links get posted as if they were fact. That’s not to say the traditional newspapers didn’t have their own biases but they don’t have the power and influence they did in years gone by. The Internet means people can find something that validates their own beliefs and then quote it as fact or gospel. And that is true for all shades of the political spectrum.

[Frankhfc]

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Corbyn has dedicated his life to being the middle man, I don't mean that in a bad way. To arbitrate peace you can't be seen to favour one side or the other. The British press have been so successful in their hatchet job on him that it's all but forgotten he also met with Israelis and Protestant paramilitaries, if you believe the press (and many do) then Corbyn is the embodiment of evil. He will never shake that image and is therefore unelectable.

The real issue is that if Labour had in place a better leader then they would in my opinion be riding high in the polls.

[allmodcons]

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I didn’t see the debate, busy with family stuff and haven’t watched it on catch-up. I read a bit about it on here, though that’s not exactly balanced

I did read the analysis of it by Andrew Sparrow and his colleagues who do the daily Politics Live on the Guardian website.

I don’t think any of them are natural Tories but I have read their summary and analysis of PMQs and the like for a long time now and it has always felt relatively even-handed.

Their summary was that Johnson wasn’t fantastic but said the right things to the people he needs to speak to. Playing it safe with voters who should be his but might wobble.

Corbyn was weak and got better, but not game-chagingly better. He put to bed the issue about him and Brexit by declaring neutrality but that opens up internal dissent, given a greater number of the party membership favour Remain than voted for Corbyn.

Swinson seemed to have a nightmare. The Guardian said that she did have the most hostile questioning and little in the way of audience support, compared to the others, which probably doesn’t reflect the polls. What I found interesting was that there was a lot of studio flak about the commitment to revoke Brexit directly, rather than go to a second referendum. I have not seen any polling about simply revoking Brexit - is it really that unpopular? I know there are arguments about democracy and the will of the people etc, I’m more curious about how many people support a simple revocation.

Sturgeon was praised for being a bit above it all and a bit more measured. But it was also acknowledged that the context of the debate made life a lot easier for her.

I might try and watch it on catch-up if I can find the time.

I watched the debate. Sturgeon and Corbyn were the best 2 performers. Swinson had a nightmare and Johnson was very poor making sure he mentioned "stopping Brexit" and "one nation Conservative Party" whenever the opportunity arose.

What struck me as unusual for Question Time was that the audience appeared to be heavily weighted in favour of Corbyn which IMO suited Sturgeon too. They were very hostile towards Swinson giving her a real grilling around the Tory/Lib Dem coalition and her voting record on austerity.

As I said Sturgeon was good but I think talking to an audience in England who were not too genned up on the Scottish political scene and wasn't full of hard line Brexiteers suited her and, consequently, made life a bit easier for her than the other leaders.

[Hibrandenburg]

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I don't think anyone can blame the press primarily because there's a choice of reading available. People aren't forced to read right leaning newspapers. They could just as easily pick up the Guardian, The Mirror or even the broadly centre left Independent. My own choice the Guardian is a left wing newspaper and if someone else wants to pick up the Daily Express for example that is entirely their choice to do so and having the freedom to choose is rightful in my opinion.

Newspapers are a thing of the 20th century. People are caught in social media echo chambers, they no longer need to think for themselves because they're being intravenously fed "the facts".

[Frankhfc]

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Newspapers are a thing of the 20th century. People are caught in social media echo chambers, they no longer need to think for themselves because they're being intravenously fed "the facts".

]

Fair enough mate. The only social media I tend to go onto is Hibs net. I make a point of buying a Guardian most days as we might lose printed newspapers altogether and that would be a sad loss in my opinion.