General election 2019

[Fife-Hibee]

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Whether she actually would or not if push came to shove is another matter and hopefully it'll never be put to the test.

Just depends who is wise enough to offer Scotland a referendum first I suppose. Probably the tories, as Labour don’t really want to be in Government.

[Hibbyradge]

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But surely by not answering the question she's just as likely to alienate just as many if not more voters.

Folk who want to vote for her will give her the benefit of the doubt.

It's the correct way to deal with the question.

Have you stopped beating your wife? The only answer is no answer.

[Ozyhibby]

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Just depends who is wise enough to offer Scotland a referendum first I suppose. Probably the tories, as Labour don’t really want to be in Government.

Nobody is going to offer it because Labour can’t get the votes to get us to a hung parliament.


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[Ozyhibby]

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We approach this from different directions, as I don't think they are left enough in some areas, thus I am more comfortable in the Greens. As for 'payment', may I remind you of Tony Benn's adage that "no government in history has ever said they couldn't fight a war because there wasn't enough money. They find the money; so, if we can find the money to kill people, we can find the money to help people. No excuses".

Also in relation to 'paying' for progress, we need to destroy the idea that governments need to pay for spending by taxation, when that simply isn't the case. Despite the nonsense Thatcher used to state, governments are not the same as households i.e. 'pocketbook spending' is not applicable to governments, which have the ability to create money from nothing - see the 2008 banking crisis and bailout. Taxation can be used to keep inflation down, but isn't required to raise revenue for spending. 'The national credit card' etc is total nonsense. In 1945 the country was 'bankrupt' after six years of war, yet we created an NHS, a welfare state, free university education and nationalised key industries. The whole discussion needs reflect the reality, not the myth.

I watched that video and she does not make a very compelling case.
If we take her at her word, why even have any taxation at all if it does not matter? Surely we can just spend what we like?
It’s complete nonsense. The govt has two sources of money, taxation and debt. If it relies too heavily on debt the market will start to charge higher interest for it and there are inflation risks.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

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I watched that video and she does not make a very compelling case.
If we take her at her word, why even have any taxation at all if it does not matter? Surely we can just spend what we like?
It’s complete nonsense. The govt has two sources of money, taxation and debt. If it relies too heavily on debt the market will start to charge higher interest for it and there are inflation risks.


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That just isn't true. Governments do not need to use taxation for spending, since governments have a monopoly on issuing a currency. This only breaks down when a government forfeits its right to a sovereign currency, such as the eurozone. Taxation can be used to keep inflation down, in addition to social goals such as egalitarianism and equality of opportunity, but a government could in theory have zero taxation and maintain all its social spending; it cannot "max out the credit card" as individuals can. However, doing so would cause inflation to sky rocket and trust in the currency to collapse. All currencies work on trust alone: if I gave you a paper note, you believe it has some value, though of course it has no intrinsic value. If we lose that trust, the currency is finished. It's all alchemy and delusion really. When you say 'debt', remember governments borrow from themselves. If I owe myself £100, am I in debt? Governments can borrow from the public via instruments such as government bonds, but that's a choice, they don't have to do that to finance spending.

[Ozyhibby]

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That just isn't true. Governments do not need to use taxation for spending, since governments have a monopoly on issuing a currency. This only breaks down when a government forfeits its right to a sovereign currency, such as the eurozone. Taxation can be used to keep inflation down, in addition to social goals such as egalitarianism and equality of opportunity, but a government could in theory have zero taxation and maintain all its social spending; it cannot "max out the credit card" as individuals can. However, doing so would cause inflation to sky rocket and trust in the currency to collapse. All currencies work on trust alone: if I gave you a paper note, you believe it has some value, though of course it has no intrinsic value. If we lose that trust, the currency is finished. It's all alchemy and delusion really. When you say 'debt', remember governments borrow from themselves. If I owe myself £100, am I in debt? Governments can borrow from the public via instruments such as government bonds, but that's a choice, they don't have to do that to finance spending.

You admit that it revolves around trust and I contend that the trust is not there for what you are proposing. It’s never been done successfully.


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[SHODAN]

Johnson has had an utterly shambolic week but has somehow managed to increase his lead.

We're ****ed.

[Ozyhibby]

Johnson just announce that corporation tax cuts that were planned have been cancelled. Money spent on public services. Funny, he used to say corporation tax cuts raised money.


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[southsider]

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Johnson has had an utterly shambolic week but has somehow managed to increase his lead.

We're ****ed.

Will peerages for Brexit Party stand down’s come back to haunt him ? Like cash for questions all over again. Police must be called in. And Labour a distant 2nd. Give me strength.

[Fife-Hibee]

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Johnson has had an utterly shambolic week but has somehow managed to increase his lead.

We're ****ed.

Neither party wants to win the election. Both parties know the economy is ducked. Labour are playing a blinder with their Marxist style manifesto. They’ll ensure there’s a majority Tory government when everything implodes and try as he might, Boris can’t prevent it.

[Hibernia&Alba]

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You admit that it revolves around trust and I contend that the trust is not there for what you are proposing. It’s never been done successfully.


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The way that public finances actually work, versus the myth of taxing to spend, must be one of the greatest inaccuracies in the world today. It effects each and every one of us, yet I've never heard a politician discuss the issue accurately. The falsehood keeps being repeated. Perhaps they have also just accepted the narrative that governments must work like households as Thatcher used to claim, when it's a completely false analogy. You and I do not have our own sovereign currency, which changes everything.

[Hibernia&Alba]

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Yet the Corbyn proposals would improve the lives of the vast majority, both personally and as a society. The majority of people would be financially better off, if nothing else. It's baffling to me.

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I don’t think they would.


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How about a £6000 pay rise for every worker?


https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/18/labou...share.top.link

[jonty]

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How about a £6000 pay rise for every worker?


https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/18/labou...share.top.link

Except its not every worker - and its not a full 6k
To truly give everyone a £6000 they would need to also do something like up the personal tax threshold - but they wont

[Hibernia&Alba]

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Except its not every worker - and its not a full 6k
To truly give everyone a £6000 they would need to also do something like up the personal tax threshold - but they wont

What is undeniable is that the majority of people in society would be personally better off under Labour than they would under the Tories, and that's before we even discuss the benefits to wider society.

[Ozyhibby]

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What is undeniable is that the majority of people in society would be personally better off under Labour than they would under the Tories, and that's before we even discuss the benefits to wider society.

That is entirely deniable.


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[jonty]

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What is undeniable is that the majority of people in society would be personally better off under Labour than they would under the Tories, and that's before we even discuss the benefits to wider society.

Unlike Ozy, I wont argue that point

[Ozyhibby]

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Unlike Ozy, I wont argue that point

Doesn’t matter anyway. They can’t win with Corbyn.


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[Fife-Hibee]

Christine Jardine positioning the Lib Dems as the new tories on the block in Scotland with this letter.

https://img.techpowerup.org/191118/c...jardinepng.png

She doesn't want Corbyn to win the election, but is happy to scoop up the tory votes in Edinburgh West seeing as the Conservative Party can't win here.

Not a mention about Brexit either.....

[jonty]

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Doesn’t matter anyway. They can’t win with Corbyn.


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I cant really disagree with that either.

[CloudSquall]

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Christine Jardine positioning the Lib Dems as the new tories on the block in Scotland with this letter.

https://img.techpowerup.org/191118/c...jardinepng.png

She doesn't want Corbyn to win the election, but is happy to scoop up the tory votes in Edinburgh West seeing as the Conservative Party can't win here.

Not a mention about Brexit either.....

Looking at the results in 2017 and she actually got slightly less votes than Mike Crockart in 2015, it was the size of the collapse in the SNP vote that got her in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinbu...s_in_the_2010s

It seems to have been the case in many of the seats the SNP lost in 2017, it wasn't so much a case of votes being lost to other parties but more a case of 2015 voters just not turning up.

How many seats they can get back will depend on how much of that 2015 "tsunami" they can recreate, if they do so in Edinburgh West Jardine's going to rely on some unionist vote transfer.

[Ozyhibby]

SNP lost their court case. Scotland will get to watch Johnson and Corbyn get stuck into the SNP without the SNP being able to defend themselves.
A union of equals?


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[JeMeSouviens]

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SNP lost their court case. Scotland will get to watch Johnson and Corbyn get stuck into the SNP without the SNP being able to defend themselves.
A union of equals?


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Bizarre that Johnson has agreed to h2h with Corbyn when he needs a split remain vote.

[lapsedhibee]

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Bizarre that Johnson has agreed to h2h with Corbyn when he needs a split remain vote.

Johnson won't see any problem there. Corbyn didn't go to Eton. Just like Emily Maitlis.

[Jack Hackett]

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SNP lost their court case. Scotland will get to watch Johnson and Corbyn get stuck into the SNP without the SNP being able to defend themselves.
A union of equals?


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Isn't it more likely they'll both ignore the pesky Jocks completely?

[Hibrandenburg]

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Folk who want to vote for her will give her the benefit of the doubt.

It's the correct way to deal with the question.

Have you stopped beating your wife? The only answer is no answer.

Don't you start calling me a wife beater too.

[Fife-Hibee]

[Ozyhibby]

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[Fife-Hibee]

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Based on the assumption of age turnout mentioned above which doesn't seem very realistic at all.

[Jones28]

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Based on the assumption of age turnout mentioned above which doesn't seem very realistic at all.

I would argue that the assumptions are correct. Brexit was swung by the older vote, those who voted Brexit but vote labour will turn away from labour and Corbyn and go to the nearest port for brexiteers, either the Brexit party or Boris.

Or something else entirely.

I have a horrible feeling the silent majority will vote the conservatives in by a landslide.

[G B Young]

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SNP lost their court case. Scotland will get to watch Johnson and Corbyn get stuck into the SNP without the SNP being able to defend themselves.
A union of equals?


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Does anyone really care about these 'debates'? At least with the Lib Dems and the SNP involved it might have diluted the slanging match that these one-to-one events tend to descend into (witness the appalling Darling v Salmond shoutfests in 2014).