General election 2019

[CloudSquall]

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That along with the 2 by-election victories in Fife shows things are beginning to swing back towards them again. Wouldn't be surprised to see the SNP return 50+ seats again.

I think a lot depends on how much of the 2015 SNP vote that didn't vote in 2017 turns out, could be crucial in turning over some of the Tory majorities.

[Moulin Yarns]

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If that’s the purpose then it shows a lack of competence on the part of Scottish Government because the targets consistently get missed. I wonder what that does for morale in the Scottish NHS.

You talk about percentage points but I think you miss the point that these aren’t percentage points, these are thousands of real people, with health conditions, possibly very painful and debilitating.

Lets not not forget it was the SNP who set legally-binding targets on themselves. They have broken their own law 150-200,000 times now. I am looking forward to someone explaining to me how that is either reasonable or competent.

You keep saying that they broke their own law! What law have they broken? A target is not, as far as I know, legally binding.

FWIW, I phoned NHS tayside at 4pm today and for an out patient appointment with neurology and got an appointment for Sunday 1st December. That's how good our NHS is in Scotland.

[Mibbes Aye]

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Believe me, missed targets are not a source of low morale in the NHS. Low wages, and a patronising "it's not your fault" attitude from public and politicians do much more harm.

A typical example is when the health service says "keep us out of the election" only to be passed around like a football by people who have neither the ability to understand health care, or the desire to do anything about it.

The NHS seems to have become the universal panacea for all our problems. We have an imbalance in the distribution of wealth, but both sides would rather focus on how hospitals are run than doing something about improving people's lot.

If people had hope, they wouldn't be so worried about getting unwell.

I think it is a morale issue at a senior level, both management and clinicians, hence the wide reporting of toxic cultures and bullying in more than one Health Board.

As has been said before, not least of all by me, the real issue is social care, which gets lost in all the rhetoric about the NHS.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Please show your workings.

In the margins, obviously. 😉

[Mibbes Aye]

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You keep saying that they broke their own law! What law have they broken? A target is not, as far as I know, legally binding.

FWIW, I phoned NHS tayside at 4pm today and for an out patient appointment with neurology and got an appointment for Sunday 1st December. That's how good our NHS is in Scotland.

I referred to the legislation in a previous post.

[Moulin Yarns]

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The Patient Rights Act (Scotland) Act 2011 is maybe what you haven’t read. In no small part, this is why the NHS in Scotland spends money on private providers.

I agree with setting exacting targets, but when you clearly are missing them by a country mile, then it becomes less about the target and more about what the hell you are doing to address under-performance.

https://www.audit-scotland.gov.uk/report/nhs-in-scotland-2019#&gid=1&pid=4

All but inpatient treatment has improved according to the chart 🤔

[Fife-Hibee]

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The Patient Rights Act (Scotland) Act 2011 is maybe what you haven’t read. In no small part, this is why the NHS in Scotland spends money on private providers.

I agree with setting exacting targets, but when you clearly are missing them by a country mile, then it becomes less about the target and more about what the hell you are doing to address under-performance.

Setting targets into legislation doesn't make them legally binding which is what you seemed to be suggesting in your previous post.

I agree that the NHS needs to improve. But the NHS always needs to improve. They'll never be a point where people say that it's "good enough". That's why such targets are set. They aren't there simply to be met, they exist to push the NHS as hard as possible.

When I worked as a packer for Amazon quite a number of years ago. They had this ridiculous target of 300 packages an hour. Of course, nobody came anywhere close to that target. But the purpose of having such a target was to pressure people into operating as quickly as possible.

It's the same thing with the NHS target.

[RyeSloan]

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You keep saying that they broke their own law! What law have they broken? A target is not, as far as I know, legally binding.

FWIW, I phoned NHS tayside at 4pm today and for an out patient appointment with neurology and got an appointment for Sunday 1st December. That's how good our NHS is in Scotland.

Here’s a wee read for you regarding legally binding targets...one that is being totally missed right enough but hey it’s legally binding and guaranteed!

https://www2.gov.scot/About/Performa...rmance/TTG-LDP

[ronaldo7]

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You keep saying that they broke their own law! What law have they broken? A target is not, as far as I know, legally binding.

FWIW, I phoned NHS tayside at 4pm today and for an out patient appointment with neurology and got an appointment for Sunday 1st December. That's how good our NHS is in Scotland.

I had my aunty (89) in the Royal after a fall last week. She spent 6 days in hospital being assessed by all sorts of people. Out again within 1 week with a care package in place.

The SNHS is **** though.

[Cataplana]

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I think it is a morale issue at a senior level, both management and clinicians, hence the wide reporting of toxic cultures and bullying in more than one Health Board.

As has been said before, not least of all by me, the real issue is social care, which gets lost in all the rhetoric about the NHS.

Targets are definitely a factor in bullying culture, so I stand corrected there, as bullying and decisions being made for non clinical reasons, to the detriment of patient care, are bad for morale.

Regrettably the bullies are so deeply ingrained, at all levels, that it is hard to see how things can get better.

[Cataplana]

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I had my aunty (89) in the Royal after a fall last week. She spent 6 days in hospital being assessed by all sorts of people. Out again within 1 week with a care package in place.

The SNHS is **** though.

Your post hardly backs up your criticism.

In what ways do you think it's ****?

[RyeSloan]

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Setting targets into legislation doesn't make them legally binding which is what you seemed to be suggesting in your previous post.

I agree that the NHS needs to improve. But the NHS always needs to improve. They'll never be a point where people say that it's "good enough". That's why such targets are set. They aren't there simply to be met, they exist to push the NHS as hard as possible.

When I worked as a packer for Amazon quite a number of years ago. They had this ridiculous target of 300 packages an hour. Of course, nobody came anywhere close to that target. But the purpose of having such a target was to pressure people into operating as quickly as possible.

It's the same thing with the NHS target.

It’s not the same thing. No where near. There is zero legislation regarding how many packages ana Amazon worker might pack but there is specific legislation on service levels required from the NHS. So to suggest they are remotely related is just daft.


The Scottish government says the following:

Why is this LDP Standard important?

The treatment time guarantee is set out in legislation “The Patient Right’s (Scotland) Act 2011”. It places a legal requirement on health boards that once planned inpatient and day case treatment has been agreed with the patient the patient must receive that treatment within 12 weeks.

[lapsedhibee]

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Your post hardly backs up your criticism.

In what ways do you think it's ****?

It was criticism, but not of the SNHS.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Your post hardly backs up your criticism.

In what ways do you think it's ****?

Whoosh! 😁

[Cataplana]

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It was criticism, but not of the SNHS.

Are you sure? Have things got to the stage that a score of **** is an improvement ?

[Moulin Yarns]

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It’s not the same thing. No where near. There is zero legislation regarding how many packages ana Amazon worker might pack but there is specific legislation on service levels required from the NHS. So to suggest they are remotely related is just daft.


The Scottish government says the following:

Why is this LDP Standard important?

The treatment time guarantee is set out in legislation “The Patient Right’s (Scotland) Act 2011”. It places a legal requirement on health boards that once planned inpatient and day case treatment has been agreed with the patient the patient must receive that treatment within 12 weeks.

And I have got an appointment in 2 weeks time. 👍

[lapsedhibee]

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Are you sure?

Yes.

[Mon Dieu4]

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You keep saying that they broke their own law! What law have they broken? A target is not, as far as I know, legally binding.

FWIW, I phoned NHS tayside at 4pm today and for an out patient appointment with neurology and got an appointment for Sunday 1st December. That's how good our NHS is in Scotland.

Although it isn't without its problems I went to ERI A&E with a broken wrist during the summer, I was in the door and out in under 90 mins, X Ray, Stookie and done

For my follow up out patients visit it was under an hour

A porter guy was actually walking about asking if anyone wanted a drink of water

Can't fault it at all in terms of timescales or service

[weecounty hibby]

I won't post the full history again as I have before and it is massively long but my daughter has a pretty rare disorder and the treatment she has had in her 12 years of life has been outstanding, life saving at times. At the other end of the spectrum my mum has just been diagnosed with lung cancer and her treatment both physical and emotional has been outstanding. In the middle I have had numerous rugby injuries over the years some requiring surgery, again outstanding service. Could the SNHS be better, of course it could as improvements can be made, is it a very special and pretty well run organisation for the vast majority. Yes it is. It would be the same or worse under Labour, it would be worse when privatised under the Tories and the Libdems don't have a clue about running anything.

[Mibbes Aye]

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I won't post the full history again as I have before and it is massively long but my daughter has a pretty rare disorder and the treatment she has had in her 12 years of life has been outstanding, life saving at times. At the other end of the spectrum my mum has just been diagnosed with lung cancer and her treatment both physical and emotional has been outstanding. In the middle I have had numerous rugby injuries over the years some requiring surgery, again outstanding service. Could the SNHS be better, of course it could as improvements can be made, is it a very special and pretty well run organisation for the vast majority. Yes it is. It would be the same or worse under Labour, it would be worse when privatised under the Tories and the Libdems don't have a clue about running anything.

I am glad you and yours have had good experiences with the NHS, genuinely.

My argument isn’t that the SNHS is terrible. My argument is against those who revel in saying “Look how good we are, we are better then England and Wales”.

Because it is a pish argument. It ignores the fact that local government cuts are two years ahead in England which impacts on health performance. And it ignores the fact that years down the road, Scotland is failing to meet the targets it set itself and yes, wrote into law.

It is a bit embarrassing to see people defending Colin Calderwood as better than Terry Butcher, because that’s essentially what’s happening here.

[weecounty hibby]

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I am glad you and yours have had good experiences with the NHS, genuinely.

My argument isn’t that the SNHS is terrible. My argument is against those who revel in saying “Look how good we are, we are better then England and Wales”.

Because it is a pish argument. It ignores the fact that local government cuts are two years ahead in England which impacts on health performance. And it ignores the fact that years down the road, Scotland is failing to meet the targets it set itself and yes, wrote into law.

It is a bit embarrassing to see people defending Colin Calderwood as better than Terry Butcher, because that’s essentially what’s happening here.

Honestly I get what you're saying but there are those who revel in telling us that the SNHS is terrible when it blatantly is not.
I am in no way defending missing targets or that they are in law. But they are stretching targets. I work for a multi national blue chip company and we set very stretching targets and the belief is that it is better to meet 90% of a stretch than 100% of a soft target. And that is why we are a multi billion pound company. I genuinely believe that we do better in Scotland because we look after SNHS ourselves

[Mibbes Aye]

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Honestly I get what you're saying but there are those who revel in telling us that the SNHS is terrible when it blatantly is not.
I am in no way defending missing targets or that they are in law. But they are stretching targets. I work for a multi national blue chip company and we set very stretching targets and the belief is that it is better to meet 90% of a stretch than 100% of a soft target. And that is why we are a multi billion pound company. I genuinely believe that we do better in Scotland because we look after SNHS ourselves

Yeah, get what you are saying. Most people will report positive experiences of NHS as it is there when needed, and staff tend to be committed and passionate about what they do. It is a wee bit like the AA, when you need them they are there and it makes all the difference.

At a more strategic level I think SNHS is a car crash in that several health boards are not able to balance their books and rely on government bailouts to stay within the law. Then you have the omnishambles of the QEII and the new Sick Kids. And then you have the public inquiries and reportage around toxic bullying culture in health boards. And then you have Jeanne Freeman and a lack of disclosure in relation to a child death.

[weecounty hibby]

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Yeah, get what you are saying. Most people will report positive experiences of NHS as it is there when needed, and staff tend to be committed and passionate about what they do. It is a wee bit like the AA, when you need them they are there and it makes all the difference.

At a more strategic level I think SNHS is a car crash in that several health boards are not able to balance their books and rely on government bailouts to stay within the law. Then you have the omnishambles of the QEII and the new Sick Kids. And then you have the public inquiries and reportage around toxic bullying culture in health boards. And then you have Jeanne Freeman and a lack of disclosure in relation to a child death.

I think we are in general agreement. I do think that government bailouts aren't necessarily a bad thing as long as there is a central budget set aside for that. It should be used not just to prop up the boards but to help them get costs under control

[Jack]

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If that’s the purpose then it shows a lack of competence on the part of Scottish Government because the targets consistently get missed. I wonder what that does for morale in the Scottish NHS.

You talk about percentage points but I think you miss the point that these aren’t percentage points, these are thousands of real people, with health conditions, possibly very painful and debilitating.

Lets not not forget it was the SNP who set legally-binding targets on themselves. They have broken their own law 150-200,000 times now. I am looking forward to someone explaining to me how that is either reasonable or competent.

HA HA HA!

I've got to admit you are a trier!

Everyone in the NHS in Scotland, ... England, Wales and NI are well aware they've got to be at the top of their game and each strives to do better. It's the nature of medicine.

The Torys introduced performance targets to the UK healthcare systems but they were already being urged to by international organisations like the OECD who wanted to score on targets on like systems within the system as a whole, around the world.

So performance is measured like for like and healthcare systems around the world look to those above for ways they can improve. Of course they all want to improve.

First steps for England, governed by the Torys; Wales, governed by Labour and NI not really governed at all, will be to look to the closest, most similar healthcare system to their own to see how they can improve.

They will be looking at the SNP led Scottish Government and how the Scottish NHS is run. They'll find it's a mostly collaborative approach as opposed to the confrontational approach adopted in England.

Suck it up.

[Mibbes Aye]

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HA HA HA!

I've got to admit you are a trier!

Everyone in the NHS in Scotland, ... England, Wales and NI are well aware they've got to be at the top of their game and each strives to do better. It's the nature of medicine.

The Torys introduced performance targets to the UK healthcare systems but they were already being urged to by international organisations like the OECD who wanted to score on targets on like systems within the system as a whole, around the world.

So performance is measured like for like and healthcare systems around the world look to those above for ways they can improve. Of course they all want to improve.

First steps for England, governed by the Torys; Wales, governed by Labour and NI not really governed at all, will be to look to the closest, most similar healthcare system to their own to see how they can improve.

They will be looking at the SNP led Scottish Government and how the Scottish NHS is run. They'll find it's a mostly collaborative approach as opposed to the confrontational approach adopted in England.

Suck it up.

So, now we are agreed that there are legally binding targets in Scotland, can we agree that they are being massively missed?

[stoneyburn hibs]

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HA HA HA!

I've got to admit you are a trier!

Everyone in the NHS in Scotland, ... England, Wales and NI are well aware they've got to be at the top of their game and each strives to do better. It's the nature of medicine.

The Torys introduced performance targets to the UK healthcare systems but they were already being urged to by international organisations like the OECD who wanted to score on targets on like systems within the system as a whole, around the world.

So performance is measured like for like and healthcare systems around the world look to those above for ways they can improve. Of course they all want to improve.

First steps for England, governed by the Torys; Wales, governed by Labour and NI not really governed at all, will be to look to the closest, most similar healthcare system to their own to see how they can improve.

They will be looking at the SNP led Scottish Government and how the Scottish NHS is run. They'll find it's a mostly collaborative approach as opposed to the confrontational approach adopted in England.

Suck it up.

Suck it up indeed.

His Unionist tribe is becoming increasingly more prevalent as time goes by.

Now you're going to tell the world you're not a Unionist...

[Mibbes Aye]

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Suck it up indeed.

His Unionist tribe is becoming increasingly more prevalent as time goes by.

Now you're going to tell the world you're not a Unionist...

Is that directed at me?

I’ve explained my stance at length several times and I don’t think anyone can accuse it of being unionist, maybe idealist though.

Not my fault if you can’t follow that.

[lucky]

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Voting Labour in Scotland is pointless as it simply divides the SNP vote and acts as a backdoor for tory candidates to take the seats. I'll tell you this much though. If a situation arises after the election where Labour have the opportunity to form a Government and Corbyn maintains his stance regarding another referendum in Scotland. Labour will not be forming the next Government. The SNP showed 40 years ago that they wouldn't be jerked around at the cost of Scotlands sovereignty and they certainly won't be jerked around this time either.

It's take it or leave it Labour as far as the SNP are concerned.

If you think the people of Scotland would forgive the SNP a second time for putting the Tories into power your totally misguided. Sturgeon has already said no deal with Tories so to not back Corbyn allowing BJ into power will catastrophic for the future of independence

[Fife-Hibee]

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If you think the people of Scotland would forgive the SNP a second time for putting the Tories into power your totally misguided. Sturgeon has already said no deal with Tories so to not back Corbyn allowing BJ into power will catastrophic for the future of independence

The SNP don't have to deal with the tories. The tories are almost certain to have the most seats (majority or not). Which means if they don't have a majority, they'll get the first shot at forming a coalition Government. If that fails, then it's on Labour to find compromise with other parties to form the next Government which will more than likely have to include the SNP. Labour can either accept Scotlands perfectly legitimitate mandate, or they can bring down themselves.

People didn't have the internet 40 years ago. If Labour fail to strike a deal with the SNP should the opportunity arise, then every single independence supporter in Scotland will know exactly why and they most certainly won't blame the SNP.

[stoneyburn hibs]

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Is that directed at me?

I’ve explained my stance at length several times and I don’t think anyone can accuse it of being unionist, maybe idealist though.

Not my fault if you can’t follow that.

Yes you, your posts back it up.

You really don't need anyone's approval to be tied to anything.
Who will you be voting for in 3 weeks?