Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[JeMeSouviens]

Explainer:

https://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com...ll-me-back-in/

To the real story: why now?

BDO have been discussing the debate with HMRC on the two points of contention for over a year. It has been over five months since BDO revealed that HMRC had capitulated and couldn’t be bothered chasing these issues any longer. So why would the Ibrox PR machine suddenly fire up this story now?

It all looks like a well-planned, well-executed distortion of the truth. This far after the events it seems unlikely that the Sevco PR machine would waste such capital without a compelling reason. With going-concern warnings, cash requirements gaps for the coming year, a lawsuit lost over retail, and one more in the works for an Ibrox Disaster memorial plan abandoned, plus massive dilution of supporters’ share investments- there are a lot of issues that could be about to erupt for the seven year old club.

Whatever is going on, the “taxman killed my club by mistake” narrative has to be a distraction from something. Time will tell us what it is exactly, but with so many loyal and true bluenoses working in the press, this could simply be an in-house hack trying to clear the name of his now departed club.

[ballengeich]

I'm disappointed by the way The Times has presented this in its headline. There's an implication that Rangers really only owed them £20 million. If you look at the detail you'll see that HMRC have reduced their claim from £93m to £68m as a result of dropping a claim for penalty charges. The £68m includes a claim for £36m on EBTs, but there's a possibility that this could drop to £20m depending on further legal debate. Rangers fans are reading it as £20m being the total eventual liability rather just the minimum amount due for that part of the total sum.

On top of the base EBT liability there's interest for late payment and the small tax case.

One of the myths Rangers fans have is that their debt to the bank was under control when they went under. This is based on the debt having reduced by £1m in each of the two previous seasons. What they don't bring into consideration is that in both these seasons they had champions' league income. When they didn't even qualify for the UEFA group stage in autumn 2011 they were looking at an 8 figure loss on the season with cash running out before the next transfer window. Craig Whyte's reaction was to stop forwarding PAYE and VAT in order to keep the business running. There's £15m due for that.

Whyte once said that his biggest regret was not going for administration as soon as they were eliminated from Europe. I always suspected that he kept the club going as long as it lasted by telling HMRC he'd pay the PAYE and VAT by sales in the January 2012 window. When he only managed to shift Jelavic HMRC had to take action and that's why they stepped in during February.

The wrath being expressed by Rangers fans is based on a failure to take a proper look at facts.

[JeMeSouviens]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'm disappointed by the way The Times has presented this in its headline. There's an implication that Rangers really only owed them £20 million. If you look at the detail you'll see that HMRC have reduced their claim from £93m to £68m as a result of dropping a claim for penalty charges. The £68m includes a claim for £36m on EBTs, but there's a possibility that this could drop to £20m depending on further legal debate. Rangers fans are reading it as £20m being the total eventual liability rather just the minimum amount due for that part of the total sum.

On top of the base EBT liability there's interest for late payment and the small tax case.

One of the myths Rangers fans have is that their debt to the bank was under control when they went under. This is based on the debt having reduced by £1m in each of the two previous seasons. What they don't bring into consideration is that in both these seasons they had champions' league income. When they didn't even qualify for the UEFA group stage in autumn 2011 they were looking at an 8 figure loss on the season with cash running out before the next transfer window. Craig Whyte's reaction was to stop forwarding PAYE and VAT in order to keep the business running. There's £15m due for that.

Whyte once said that his biggest regret was not going for administration as soon as they were eliminated from Europe. I always suspected that he kept the club going as long as it lasted by telling HMRC he'd pay the PAYE and VAT by sales in the January 2012 window. When he only managed to shift Jelavic HMRC had to take action and that's why they stepped in during February.

The wrath being expressed by Rangers fans is based on a failure to take a proper look at facts.

The idea that the Murray Group wouldn't have been able to challenge the assessments along these lines at the time is frankly laughable. What happened, "Sir" Dodgy Dave forgot to buy new batteries for his calculator?

[Alan62]

Arguably, the biggest trend in the 'information age' is the selective use of information to suit whatever agenda is being peddled. Scottish football will never be reported with a balanced perspective that weighs up all the evidence available because that approach simply doesn't sell papers or put eyes on screens. Add to that the sheer complexity of any financial criminality and you have the perfect storm for whipping up hysteria amongst the Rangers' faithful.

What it does show, however, is the painfully slow progress of the legal system - and how long we'll have to wait to see Rangers 2.0 finally bite the dust. At least there's a precedent now, though, for dropping them down to the fourth tier and a shadowy four-way agreement that can be dusted off to ensure that they don't properly die.

[Moulin Yarns]

I think that we need to view the weegiecentric media as churnalists. They churn out what they are told.

[PatHead]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Arguably, the biggest trend in the 'information age' is the selective use of information to suit whatever agenda is being peddled. Scottish football will never be reported with a balanced perspective that weighs up all the evidence available because that approach simply doesn't sell papers or put eyes on screens. Add to that the sheer complexity of any financial criminality and you have the perfect storm for whipping up hysteria amongst the Rangers' faithful.

What it does show, however, is the painfully slow progress of the legal system - and how long we'll have to wait to see Rangers 2.0 finally bite the dust. At least there's a precedent now, though, for dropping them down to the fourth tier and a shadowy four-way agreement that can be dusted off to ensure that they don't properly die.

They did not "drop down" to the 4th tier. They applied to join the league and were allowed to join in the 4th tier.

[Stonewall]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Arguably, the biggest trend in the 'information age' is the selective use of information to suit whatever agenda is being peddled. Scottish football will never be reported with a balanced perspective that weighs up all the evidence available because that approach simply doesn't sell papers or put eyes on screens. Add to that the sheer complexity of any financial criminality and you have the perfect storm for whipping up hysteria amongst the Rangers' faithful.

What it does show, however, is the painfully slow progress of the legal system - and how long we'll have to wait to see Rangers 2.0 finally bite the dust. At least there's a precedent now, though, for dropping them down to the fourth tier and a shadowy four-way agreement that can be dusted off to ensure that they don't properly die.

it was a five way agreement.

[Alan62]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

They did not "drop down" to the 4th tier. They applied to join the league and were allowed to join in the 4th tier.

This is, of course, true. Lazy wording on my part. I feel like Keith Jackson.

[Alan62]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

it was a five way agreement.

Again, true. I had all the resolve of a mainstream journalist and couldn't be bothered looking it up. Can I start at the Daily Record tomorrow?

[Smartie]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Again, true. I had all the resolve of a mainstream journalist and couldn't be bothered looking it up. Can I start at the Daily Record tomorrow?

One final test.

Can you spell "fenian conspiracy"?

[ScottB]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Again, true. I had all the resolve of a mainstream journalist and couldn't be bothered looking it up. Can I start at the Daily Record tomorrow?

How do you feel about lamb?

[Alan62]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

One final test.

Can you spell "fenian conspiracy"?

Think it's a capital F on Fenian.

[Alan62]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

How do you feel about lamb?

I'm a vegetarian. Is that me out?

[Alan62]

Watch out, Ally wants answers. https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/...iu88CaxEeOvbro

[HoboHarry]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'm a vegetarian. Is that me out?

Out of your head maybe

[Deansy]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Watch out, Ally wants answers. https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/...iu88CaxEeOvbro

'It's a difference of about £50m' -

Amazing stuff, both the Hun and HMRC employ numerous extremely well-paid accountants and not one single one of them on either side noticed this 'mistake' - add in the scrutiny of the MSM which isn't 'Pro-Hun' (mainly the English MSM) and I'm of the opinion that this 'story/mistake' is a load of schitt !

[Pinkie]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

'It's a difference of about £50m' -

Amazing stuff, both the Hun and HMRC employ extremely numerous well-paid accountants and not one single one of them on either side noticed this 'mistake' - add in the scrutiny of the MSM which isn't 'Pro-Hun' (mainly the English MSM) and I'm of the opinion that this 'story/mistake' is a load of schitt !

It is. There's a decent summary of what has happened on the Rangers Tax Case blog which, if it is to be believed (and I would take its word over the DR or McCoist any day of the week), shows that there has been no mistake. Simply that HMRC has given up pursuing a large chunk of what they think they are owed because it's a lot of hassle and the funds in the liquidated RFC aren't going to stretch that far anyway.

Still, it suits the DR to stoke the fires under the victim card (if you'll forgive the mixed metaphors) and Ally "sneaky punch from behind; people have a right to know who is trying to kill our club" McCoist is the perfect, if rather wobbly, tool with which to fan the flames.

[Tomsk]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Watch out, Ally wants answers. https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/...iu88CaxEeOvbro

Look at the language used here:

And it's believed that the revised figure would have been easily dealt with by the old company and resulted in administration and liquidation being avoided.

That led to Rangers being out of the top flight of Scottish football for four years as they made their way back in from Division Three.

Straight out of Ibrox - 'old company' 'Rangers out of the top flight'.

[ancient hibee]

At least ordinary creditors will get another 3p in the £ towards there debt bringing the payment up to 7p.So our Germanic friends will only have done ordinary businesses out of 93% of what they are owed.

[Deansy]

I've no doubt now that the current edition of Hun will sue and win against the HMRC, then the Scottish Football governing-authorities will re-instate all the trophies/Leagues etc that the Hun were stripped of for cheating not the tax-bill .................. oh, wait a minute - that didn't happen - aw forget it - anyway, we've 'moved on' haven't we ??

[jacomo]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Look at the language used here:

And it's believed that the revised figure would have been easily dealt with by the old company and resulted in administration and liquidation being avoided.

That led to Rangers being out of the top flight of Scottish football for four years as they made their way back in from Division Three.

Straight out of Ibrox - 'old company' 'Rangers out of the top flight'.

They’re not really journalists but courtesans, as Frankie Boyle would say.

[Ozyhibby]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HoboHarry]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fools like McCoist and others connected with that toxic club will pay no attention to facts, but luckily for them they won't have to read it anyway as the MSM probably won't publish this info.........

[Haymaker]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

brilliant

[HoboHarry]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

brilliant

How are things up in barren wastelands of NJ mate? Snow deep enough to cover your car yet?

[Haymaker]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

How are things up in barren wastelands of NJ mate? Snow deep enough to cover your car yet?

Nae Snow but it's ****ing cold. Had a game on Tuesday at 17 degrees!

Definitely looking at a move to the Florida office

[HoboHarry]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Nae Snow but it's ****ing cold. Had a game on Tuesday at 17 degrees!

Definitely looking at a move to the Florida office

Been chilly here this week too but it's going to be back up to 25C next week. Had to replace the shorts with jeans two days this week 😜

[Haymaker]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Been chilly here this week too but it's going to be back up to 25C next week. Had to replace the shorts with jeans two days this week 😜

Lucky you. I'm in 5 layers minimum at the mo.

Don't think we have a Texas office... I'll check.

[southsider]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Nae Snow but it's ****ing cold. Had a game on Tuesday at 17 degrees!

Definitely looking at a move to the Florida office

17 omg that cauld. I thought Edinburgh was cold at 42. Going to Spain at Xmas where it will be a balmy 68-72.

[southsider]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Nae Snow but it's ****ing cold. Had a game on Tuesday at 17 degrees!

Definitely looking at a move to the Florida office

17 omg that cauld. I thought Edinburgh was cold at 42. Going to Spain at Xmas where it will be a balmy 68-72.