Catalunya

[southsider]

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A good thoughtful post. I spend a lot of time in Spain speak Spanish pretty fluently and have a lot of friends in Barcelona. They are all horrified by what has gone on. Whilst the police have responded with brutality in some situations my friends tell me the level of provocation and violence towards the police with rocks, stones and petrol bombs has been extremely high from a significant minority of protestors. Whilst the jailed Catalan leaders have advocated peaceful protest the current leader Quim Torra, has regrettably been slow to condemn the violence.

Catalonia has its own police force, the Mossos d'Esquadra that has largely replaced the Guardia Civil and Policia Nacional so it is largely the local police force that is involved. Some reinforcements have been drafted in from Valencia, Zaragoza and Madrid to help. Incidentally the Spanish police are held in very high esteem by the majority of Spaniards and are consistently rated highly in polls of public satisfaction with public services. There is generally a lot of trust in them.

Franco saw Catalonia and the Basque country as threats and invested heavily in the regions building industry there. The logic was that if people had a decent standard of living and employment then independence would be less of a threat. Ironically this helped to make them 2 of the economic powerhouses of the country and they could both do well economically as independent countries.

As we know from situations like Northern Ireland this type of situation can only be settled by dialogue and concessions from both sides. Sadly both sides seem to be digging in their heels and the blame game is being played at present.

Spanish politics and history are both fascinating and complicated. Some time ago I read Ghosts of Spain, travelling through a country's hidden past by Giles Tremlett, the Guardian's Spanish correspondent. A fascinating book that gives much insight into Spain's past with many things I did not know or appreciate

Got a copy of the book from the library and I will start it tonight with a nice merlot.

[goosano]

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Got a copy of the book from the library and I will start it tonight with a nice merlot.

👍👍

[Cataplana]

I've read the book now, a pretty extensive reflection on how Spain was 20 years ago.

I accept that Francoism has little, or nothing, to do with the protests in Catalonia.

What comes through, loud and clear, is that the whole episode is one that Spain is making every effort it can to put behind them.

Reading the chapter on Catalonia was enlightening. I can see how closely their situation mirrors Scotland's, and it must be a major frustration not to get the referendum they want.

[CloudSquall]

Another European Arrest Warrant issued for Clara Ponsati, St Andrews professor who was Education Minister in Catalunya,


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-50299391

[IberianHibernian]

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Another European Arrest Warrant issued for Clara Ponsati, St Andrews professor who was Education Minister in Catalunya,


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-50299391

At the time of the Scottish independence referendum I seem to remember very open criticism of the YES campaign from people in high places at St Andrews University . Ironic that the accused continues to work at the same university . As Education Minister she was responsible for authorising the use of schools for the illegal referendum . Wonder what St Andrews University would say if Scotland`s Education Minister was involved in organising a referendum without permission from London and authorised use of the university for voting ? Anyway she`s extrememly unlikely to spend any time in prison and I suspect Spanish politicians would have preferred to have let her live in Scotland without all the anti Spanish news which will now be created . Independent judges obviously think otherwise .

[JeMeSouviens]

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At the time of the Scottish independence referendum I seem to remember very open criticism of the YES campaign from people in high places at St Andrews University . Ironic that the accused continues to work at the same university . As Education Minister she was responsible for authorising the use of schools for the illegal referendum . Wonder what St Andrews University would say if Scotland`s Education Minister was involved in organising a referendum without permission from London and authorised use of the university for voting ? Anyway she`s extrememly unlikely to spend any time in prison and I suspect Spanish politicians would have preferred to have let her live in Scotland without all the anti Spanish news which will now be created . Independent judges obviously think otherwise .

Why do you say that? She's facing the same charges as Dolors Bassa (the Catalan social affairs minister) who got 12 years.

The exact legal position of a Scottish referendum held without a section 30 order is unclear. Most probably the UK would refuse to recognise the result but I think it's vanishingly unlikely they'd be able to bring any charges against anyone for organising a vote in the first place.

[ronaldo7]

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At the time of the Scottish independence referendum I seem to remember very open criticism of the YES campaign from people in high places at St Andrews University . Ironic that the accused continues to work at the same university . As Education Minister she was responsible for authorising the use of schools for the illegal referendum . Wonder what St Andrews University would say if Scotland`s Education Minister was involved in organising a referendum without permission from London and authorised use of the university for voting ? Anyway she`s extrememly unlikely to spend any time in prison and I suspect Spanish politicians would have preferred to have let her live in Scotland without all the anti Spanish news which will now be created . Independent judges obviously think otherwise .

I'd be interested in your thought process about her not spending time in prison, given her colleagues are currently doing porridge in Spanish jails.

The other point about, "anti Spanish news which will now be created", the Spanish police in Barcelona are doing a fine job all by themselves. We can see it.

[Future17]

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Another European Arrest Warrant issued for Clara Ponsati, St Andrews professor who was Education Minister in Catalunya,


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-50299391

Lots of competing interests and moving parts in this story. I suspect it's a headache the Scottish Government coukd do without.

[Cataplana]

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I'd be interested in your thought process about her not spending time in prison, given her colleagues are currently doing porridge in Spanish jails.

The other point about, "anti Spanish news which will now be created", the Spanish police in Barcelona are doing a fine job all by themselves. We can see it.

Its a complex situation, and needs a bit of balance. For example, is this any different from how the Guardia Civil polices protest in other cities.

At the end of the day, whether we like it or not, the law was broken. I would be very unhappy about the Catalan Assembly, or Spanish Parliament wading into Scottish issues.

[Slavers]

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Lots of competing interests and moving parts in this story. I suspect it's a headache the Scottish Government coukd do without.

If the Scottish Government are not careful i would imagine Spain will veto any chance of an Independent Scotland being accepted into the EU.

[IberianHibernian]

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I'd be interested in your thought process about her not spending time in prison, given her colleagues are currently doing porridge in Spanish jails.

The other point about, "anti Spanish news which will now be created", the Spanish police in Barcelona are doing a fine job all by themselves. We can see it.

I`m no legal expert but at the time sentences were announced it was mentioned that judges , probably in an effort to try to please almost everyone but probably pleasing noone , that sentences were lengthy but set with conditions that mean accused would have home visits etc within a few months and be released after a few years or less . In Ponsati`s case , whole process of extradition application will probably take years by which time whole Catalan situation may have changed .
As for scenes of violence , unlike 2017 a lot of the recent images have shown demonstrators ( many of whom seem to have little interest in Catalan politics ) to have been guilty party . General impression too that the vast majority of decent Catalans whatever political views they have if any are fed up with vandalism , strikes , regional government not working efficiently , politicians claiming to speak for whole of Catalonia . In a few years we`ll know if civil unrest was the right road to independence but right now impression I get is that it has put it back .

[IberianHibernian]

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Lots of competing interests and moving parts in this story. I suspect it's a headache the Scottish Government coukd do without.

Definitely . Not in SNP`s or Scotland`s interests to antagonise the many Catalans who don`t want independence and are unhappy about how they are living in a Catalonia controlled ( not just politically ) by independence supporters or the rest of Spain . Nor to be seen to be supporting an independence movement which has been proven to have used illegal methods to achieve their goals . I haven`t really noticed much open support from Scottish politicians anyway and suspect many of the people who wave Catalan independence flags at marches in Scotland know very little about the situation in Catalonia or in Spain in general .

[Moulin Yarns]

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Its a complex situation, and needs a bit of balance. For example, is this any different from how the Guardia Civil polices protest in other cities.

At the end of the day, whether we like it or not, the law was broken. I would be very unhappy about the Catalan Assembly, or Spanish Parliament wading into Scottish issues.

Really? The Spanish court in Madrid found that declaring UDI was illegal. However the violent actions of the Guardia Civil at the time of the referendum apparently was not. There are parallels to the court actions in the UK around Brexit recently, remember the 11 judges of the supreme court found that it was illegal to prorogue parliament, but that is was not against the law.

[Cataplana]

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Really? The Spanish court in Madrid found that declaring UDI was illegal. However the violent actions of the Guardia Civil at the time of the referendum apparently was not. There are parallels to the court actions in the UK around Brexit recently, remember the 11 judges of the supreme court found that it was illegal to prorogue parliament, but that is was not against the law.

I bow to your superior knowledge of Spanish Constitutional Law.

There are parallels with lots of things in Britain, but as they are two seperate legal systems, I wouldn't think that anything is automatically transfer.

But, I'm not going to embarrass myself any further, I really am no legal expert.

[Moulin Yarns]

URGENT UPDATE DELAY TO EXTRADITION HEARING🎗 @ClaraPonsati ‘Clarity’ is being sought by UK on warrant, court is cancelled. ‘The shambolic attempts at extradition by Spain should be a source of deep embarrassment to them’ Full details👇🏽https://t.co/Lkg1C2uctx

[lord bunberry]

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URGENT UPDATE DELAY TO EXTRADITION HEARING🎗 @ClaraPonsati ‘Clarity’ is being sought by UK on warrant, court is cancelled. ‘The shambolic attempts at extradition by Spain should be a source of deep embarrassment to them’ Full details👇🏽https://t.co/Lkg1C2uctx

The whole affair in catalunya should be a source of deep embarrassment to Spain. People can come on here and quote rules all they want, but if the people want the right to self determination they should at least be allowed the right to vote on it.

[Cataplana]

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The whole affair in catalunya should be a source of deep embarrassment to Spain. People can come on here and quote rules all they want, but if the people want the right to self determination they should at least be allowed the right to vote on it.

Its not entirely clear that all the people do.

If Spain is in breach of human rights, then that's another issue. I think it is very dangerous to comment on the situation without a full understanding of the issues.

[CloudSquall]

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I think it is very dangerous to comment on the situation without a full understanding of the issues.

We may as well shut down .Net if that's the case

[Moulin Yarns]

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Its not entirely clear that all the people do.

If Spain is in breach of human rights, then that's another issue. I think it is very dangerous to comment on the situation without a full understanding of the issues.

Let the people of catalonia have a voice, if not then they will continue to hold a grievance against the Spanish government.

[lord bunberry]

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Its not entirely clear that all the people do.

If Spain is in breach of human rights, then that's another issue. I think it is very dangerous to comment on the situation without a full understanding of the issues.

I understand that many in Catalonia want independence, if they put that to a vote then the situation becomes much clearer. I’m tired of hearing it’s not allowed under the Spanish constitution, but a constitution written decades ago shouldn’t override the will of the people. The American constitution allows its citizens to own a gun, how many people would disagree with that being changed?

[Cataplana]

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I understand that many in Catalonia want independence, if they put that to a vote then the situation becomes much clearer. I’m tired of hearing it’s not allowed under the Spanish constitution, but a constitution written decades ago shouldn’t override the will of the people. The American constitution allows its citizens to own a gun, how many people would disagree with that being changed?

I'm not entirely sure, but I think the Spanish constitution is less than 50 years old. From what I read recently, there are a lot of similarities with the Catalan situation and ours.

What is strikingly different is that Spain is not a United Kingdom like ours. Scotland and Ireland entered it as settled sovereign nations, one by choice one by a more difficult route.

There is an act of union that clearly charts that merger etc. I'm sure Scottish nats can describe this much more accurately than me. From what I can see, there is no Spanish equivalent, and what constitutes Catalonia has been fluid over the centuries.

Allowing the Catalans a referendum opens the door to even less solid "nations" such as the Basques to agitate for seperation.

[ronaldo7]

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I`m no legal expert but at the time sentences were announced it was mentioned that judges , probably in an effort to try to please almost everyone but probably pleasing noone , that sentences were lengthy but set with conditions that mean accused would have home visits etc within a few months and be released after a few years or less . In Ponsati`s case , whole process of extradition application will probably take years by which time whole Catalan situation may have changed .
As for scenes of violence , unlike 2017 a lot of the recent images have shown demonstrators ( many of whom seem to have little interest in Catalan politics ) to have been guilty party . General impression too that the vast majority of decent Catalans whatever political views they have if any are fed up with vandalism , strikes , regional government not working efficiently , politicians claiming to speak for whole of Catalonia . In a few years we`ll know if civil unrest was the right road to independence but right now impression I get is that it has put it back .

You said she was unlikely to spend any time in prison, and has now moved on to, home visits, and she'll be out in a few years.

Which is it?

From the quote above by, Moulin, it seems the Spanish government are all over the place with regards the extradition document. Long may that continue.

On your point regarding the disturbance in the last few months, it seems to me that the people have had enough of the heavy handed attacks by the storm troopers, and the use of rubber bullets with people losing eyes as a result.

The Catalan independence movement have always held firm about being a peaceful movement, but when you're protesting the imprisonment of your leaders whilst holding your arms high in the air, and then to be beaten up, just for being there, it might just tip you over to giving some back.

I'd agree their have been some agitators who've come onto the streets, but the police have been brutal in their use of force.

[CloudSquall]

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Allowing the Catalans a referendum opens the door to even less solid "nations" such as the Basques to agitate for seperation.

If they would want to have a vote on independence what is the issue?

For me it is much more healthier to have a free and open referendum in Catalunya instead of just repeating "it's against the constitution" over and over.

[Smartie]

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If they would want to have a vote on independence what is the issue?

For me it is much more healthier to have a free and open referendum in Catalunya instead of just repeating "it's against the constitution" over and over.

Is the issue not that so many of them don’t want a vote?

[Cataplana]

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You said she was unlikely to spend any time in prison, and has now moved on to, home visits, and she'll be out in a few years.

Which is it?

From the quote above by, Moulin, it seems the Spanish government are all over the place with regards the extradition document. Long may that continue.

On your point regarding the disturbance in the last few months, it seems to me that the people have had enough of the heavy handed attacks by the storm troopers, and the use of rubber bullets with people losing eyes as a result.

The Catalan independence movement have always held firm about being a peaceful movement, but when you're protesting the imprisonment of your leaders whilst holding your arms high in the air, and then to be beaten up, just for being there, it might just tip you over to giving some back.

I'd agree their have been some agitators who've come onto the streets, but the police have been brutal in their use of force.

I am on nobody's side here. I'd like to point out the skirmishes shown are of riot police defending themselves against stone throwing.

Storm Troopers is not a very helpful description of the police. Its quite childish, in fact.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Is the issue not that so many of them don’t want a vote?

If they don't want a vote I don't think they are being forced to, but those that want a vote are being forceably denied that fundamental right.

[ronaldo7]

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I am on nobody's side here. I'd like to point out the skirmishes shown are of riot police defending themselves against stone throwing.

Storm Troopers is not a very helpful description of the police. Its quite childish, in fact.

I've seen riot police hiding from hails of Stones being thrown, I've also seen innocents being brutally beaten by the police. If they dress as storm troopers, don't be surprised if they are called out as such.

[Slavers]

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I've seen riot police hiding from hails of Stones being thrown, I've also seen innocents being brutally beaten by the police. If they dress as storm troopers, don't be surprised if they are called out as such.

Would you rather the police wore t-shirt, shorts and open toe sandals?

[Moulin Yarns]

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Would you rather the police wore t-shirt, shorts and open toe sandals?

It would certainly help them be more friendly

[ronaldo7]

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Would you rather the police wore t-shirt, shorts and open toe sandals?

It would certainly even it up a bit. Maybe start with removing the rubber bullets, and water cannon though. 👍