Tories are lying *******s (warning may contain traces of Tory)

[Bristolhibby]

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The Swedish crown is its own currency. It's not a similar situation until we get our own currency. How long will that take in your opinion and why?

Straight away.

We own a part of the Bank of England. We own Sterling.

Should we let the rUK use Sterling? And if not why?

J

[lapsedhibee]

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Stewart seemed to have a barnstormer, albeit I didn’t see the whole programme. This could be a real breakthrough moment for him. He certainly did very well in setting a narrative of him being the ‘honest outsider’ which probably helps given I picked up that Saj had challenged him earlier in the debate on being Eton and Oxford-educated.

Didn't see it but that was quite predictable - he's been consistently impressive in interviews and will eat Bojoke alive in a F2F. Convinced he was the main reason the Oafus Fatus didn't turn up tonight, hoping that Stewart gets knocked out before the BBC debate.

[Fife-Hibee]

Rory certainly has that calm psychopathic charm about him.

[James310]

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Straight away.

We own a part of the Bank of England. We own Sterling.

Should we let the rUK use Sterling? And if not why?

J

So you are saying the 6 tests will be passed immediately? Are you serious with that statement?

If so then I am sorry I can't take you seriously.

What you are saying is at odds with the SNP policy agreed at their conference.

[Just Alf]

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The Swedish crown is its own currency. It's not a similar situation until we get our own currency. How long will that take in your opinion and why?

The Slovaks got independence on 1st Jan and had introduced a new currency by mid February, so it could be done really quickly if required, so I suppose I could ask the question what specifically makes you think Scotland would be likely to take much longer than recent similar examples?

Edit, I see you've mentioned the 6 tests, that's the SNP criteria currently, if its a Labour or Tory led government they may have a different view.

[James310]

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The Slovaks got independence on 1st Jan and had introduced a new currency by mid February, so it could be done really quickly if required, so I suppose I could ask the question what specifically makes you think Scotland would be likely to take much longer than recent similar examples?

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Because Slovakia never had the same political, economic and social characteristics as Scotland. They never had a massive financial services industry that is solely in the currency of the one they left, they never had mortgages, loans and pensions still to be paid in the 'old' currency. Everything was converted to the Euro, not something that will happen here. It's comparing apples and oranges.

It's a very unique situation in Scotland. I am not aware of other countries that would be a similar example to what is being proposed in Scotland, apart from Panama.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...nama-1-4745894

[Moulin Yarns]

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Because Slovakia never had the same political, economic and social characteristics as Scotland. They never had a massive financial services industry that is solely in the currency of the one they left, they never had mortgages, loans and pensions still to be paid in the 'old' currency. Everything was converted to the Euro, not something that will happen here. It's comparing apples and oranges.

It's a very unique situation in Scotland. I am not aware of other countries that would be a similar example to what is being proposed in Scotland, apart from Panama.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...nama-1-4745894

Here we go again, Scotland has already got all the EU criteria in place.

Scotland has financial services, etc in place, Slovakia had to start from scratch, suggesting that it will be so much easier.

And change your mortgage to a Scottish provider, I've explained that to you already.

[ronaldo7]

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Because Slovakia never had the same political, economic and social characteristics as Scotland. They never had a massive financial services industry that is solely in the currency of the one they left, they never had mortgages, loans and pensions still to be paid in the 'old' currency. Everything was converted to the Euro, not something that will happen here. It's comparing apples and oranges.

It's a very unique situation in Scotland. I am not aware of other countries that would be a similar example to what is being proposed in Scotland, apart from Panama.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...nama-1-4745894

Aye, they had nothing to do politically with the Czech Republic, nobody had a mortgage or pension there. They were all just living in caves.

They're just not like is at all. 😂😂😂

[Hibrandenburg]

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Because Slovakia never had the same political, economic and social characteristics as Scotland. They never had a massive financial services industry that is solely in the currency of the one they left, they never had mortgages, loans and pensions still to be paid in the 'old' currency. Everything was converted to the Euro, not something that will happen here. It's comparing apples and oranges.

It's a very unique situation in Scotland. I am not aware of other countries that would be a similar example to what is being proposed in Scotland, apart from Panama.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...nama-1-4745894

Yep, Scotland is too weak, poor, inadequate, incapable, dependant, stupid, divided, socialist.... to make a success of running it's own affairs. Better to remain on the teat of Westminster who only have our best interest at heart.

[The Modfather]

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Because Slovakia never had the same political, economic and social characteristics as Scotland. They never had a massive financial services industry that is solely in the currency of the one they left, they never had mortgages, loans and pensions still to be paid in the 'old' currency. Everything was converted to the Euro, not something that will happen here. It's comparing apples and oranges.

It's a very unique situation in Scotland. I am not aware of other countries that would be a similar example to what is being proposed in Scotland, apart from Panama.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...nama-1-4745894

As I said on another thread about Fife Hibs’ nonsense about the majority of no voters being anti Scottish racists, and that doing independence no favours. Similarly your efforts to paint Scotland as somehow a negatively unique example of a country potentially becoming independent doesn’t do your pro union arguments any favours either.

[Smartie]

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Caught the second half.

Hunt was probably most statesmanlike and appeared very magnanimous when stepping in after Gove was challenged about his cocaine dabbling.

Gove got carried away a couple of times and dropped a clanger when answering the question from the woman with a son on the autistic spectrum.

Saj actually wasn’t terrible, within context. Raab seemed out on a limb.

Stewart seemed to have a barnstormer, albeit I didn’t see the whole programme. This could be a real breakthrough moment for him. He certainly did very well in setting a narrative of him being the ‘honest outsider’ which probably helps given I picked up that Saj had challenged him earlier in the debate on being Eton and Oxford-educated.

Stewart seems to appeal a great deal more to non-Tories than the alternatives.

For a Prime Minister at a difficult time for our country that would undoubtedly be a good thing.

Sadly the Tories will be looking for a ******* to represent their *******-like interests, so he won't get very far.

He is an infinitely better candidate than Boris and Gove.

I'm actually surprised at how acceptable the rest of them are managing to make Hunt look.

[Hibrandenburg]

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Stewart seems to appeal a great deal more to non-Tories than the alternatives.

For a Prime Minister at a difficult time for our country that would undoubtedly be a good thing.

Sadly the Tories will be looking for a ******* to represent their *******-like interests, so he won't get very far.

He is an infinitely better candidate than Boris and Gove.

I'm actually surprised at how acceptable the rest of them are managing to make Hunt look.

The debates are utterly meaningless due to the fact that most Tories will have already made up their mind. A T.V. debate only really makes sense when the public are the one's who get to choose.

[James310]

I am sorry people don't like the facts.

One comment was we have the final services in place, not sure if that was meant as financial institutions required to join the EU. Do we have our own central bank which is required to join the EU? No we don't. Will we be in charge of our own monetary and fiscal policy while we have Sterling? No we won't.

There are plans to establish a Central Bank, we certainly need one with our own currency. We get our own currency when we meet the 6 tests, so again I challenge anyone to explain the 6 tests, when they will be achieved and how they will be achieved. Anyone? You all seem so confident so give it a go.

Anyone else think the tests will be met immediately like another poster seems to believe?

If it's all so simple, should be easy for you all.

[James310]

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Yep, Scotland is too weak, poor, inadequate, incapable, dependant, stupid, divided, socialist.... to make a success of running it's own affairs. Better to remain on the teat of Westminster who only have our best interest at heart.

You can put your fingers in your ears and pretend it will all be fine if you like, your just like Boris Johnson and Dominic Raab...it will be fine, we are Scotland so it will all be fine. Don't worry about the details, it will all be fine.

Do you want to take a stab at telling us how long we will be sterlingised, and then how long the 6 tests will take? Go on, give it a go.

[The Modfather]

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I am sorry people don't like the facts.

One comment was we have the final services in place, not sure if that was meant as financial institutions required to join the EU. Do we have our own central bank which is required to join the EU? No we don't. Will we be in charge of our own monetary and fiscal policy while we have Sterling? No we won't.

There are plans to establish a Central Bank, we certainly need one with our own currency. We get our own currency when we meet the 6 tests, so again I challenge anyone to explain the 6 tests, when they will be achieved and how they will be achieved. Anyone? You all seem so confident so give it a go.

If it's all so simple, should be easy for you all.

What is it you want in terms of an answer? Your post talked about the “facts”, as has been pointed out numerous times your “facts” are like me asking for you to give me the “facts” around the UK post Brexit, most of it is open to interpretation.

Whether it is in Scotland’s best interests to become independent is the actual debate, and where people can be persuaded one way or the other. There have been numerous examples over the months giving examples of countries who have become independent and others who have joined the EU as a newly independent nation. Whether that is a better position to be in than to remain in the UK is the debate to be had, but your attempts to paint Scotland becoming independent as some unprecedented feat too complex and difficult to fathom so it’s best just not to bother is tiresome and disingenuous IMO.

[James310]

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What is it you want in terms of an answer? Your post talked about the “facts”, as has been pointed out numerous times your “facts” are like me asking for you to give me the “facts” around the UK post Brexit, most of it is open to interpretation.

Whether it is in Scotland’s best interests to become independent is the actual debate, and where people can be persuaded one way or the other. There have been numerous examples over the months giving examples of countries who have become independent and others who have joined the EU as a newly independent nation. Whether that is a better position to be in than to remain in the UK is the debate to be had, but your attempts to paint Scotland becoming independent as some unprecedented feat too complex and difficult to fathom so it’s best just not to bother is tiresome and disingenuous IMO.

The facts are that chapter 17 of the Maastricht treaty which deals with monetary policy state any country wanting to join the EU must have a fully independently run central bank.

The facts are while we are Sterlingised we will not have a central bank. So we will not be joining the EU while we have Sterling. So for however long we use Sterling we will not be joining the EU, that is clear.


So the further facts are that to get our own currency which requires a central bank we need to pass the following 6 tests. This is SNP policy.

1) Fiscal sustainability: Has the Scottish Government sustainably secured its fiscal policy objectives and sufficiently strong and credible fiscal position, in relation to budget deficit and overall debt level?

2) Central Bank credibility and stability of debt issuance: Has the Scottish Central Bank and Government framework established sufficient international and market credibility evidenced by the price and the stability of the price of its debt issuance?

3) Financial requirements of Scottish residents and businesses: Would a separate currency meet the on-going needs of Scottish residents and businesses for stability and continuity of their financial arrangements and command wide support?

4) Sufficiency of foreign exchange and financial reserves: Does Scotland have sufficient reserves to allow currency management?

5) Fit to trade and investment patterns: Would the new arrangement better reflect Scotland’s new and developing trading or investment patterns?

6) Correlation of economic and trade cycle: Is the economic cycle in Scotland significantly out of phase with that of the rest of the UK, or at least as well correlated with the cycles of other trading and investment partners, thus making an independent monetary policy feasible and desirable?


Now the question was how long will it take Scotland to join the EU, many on here seem to think it will be a few years and relatively easy.

On what basis is that assumption founded when you look at the facts? You can quote Slovakia or whatever but the facts are above, that is the path that the SNP have chosen. So let's stick to that path, not the path that other countries have taken as the circumstances are different.

So based on the facts above, my opinion is Scotland will be out the EU for a long time. Why? Because we will have Sterling for an undetermined period of time, and the 6 tests are almost impossible to meet over the short to medium term. We are talking long term here, not within a few years.

Now I have taken the time to fully explain my reasons, does anyone want to tell me in the same details why it's wrong? Or does it all happen behind the scenes and computers and stuff will sort it out.

[Mibbes Aye]

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Yep, Scotland is too weak, poor, inadequate, incapable, dependant, stupid, divided, socialist.... to make a success of running it's own affairs. Better to remain on the teat of Westminster who only have our best interest at heart.

The only people who say that are people like you essentially.

You want to create this false narrative that no one else is even suggesting.

I guess trying to create resentment by using the language you do makes up for a vacuum of any rational arguments to make your case.

”..The teat of Westminster”, really? That’s just silly.

Also not sure whether to question what ‘our best interest’ means when I actually live in Scotland and you don’t . What claim have you to use the word “Our”?

Especially when a clear majority rejected the referendum result you wanted, admittedly much to your chagrin and wrath in the aftermath.

[Fife-Hibee]

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The only people who say that are people like you essentially.

You want to create this false narrative that no one else is even suggesting.

I guess trying to create resentment by using the language you do makes up for a vacuum of any rational arguments to make your case.

”..The teat of Westminster”, really? That’s just silly.

Also not sure whether to question what ‘our best interest’ means when I actually live in Scotland and you don’t . What claim have you to use the word “Our”?

Especially when a clear majority rejected the referendum result you wanted, admittedly much to your chagrin and wrath in the aftermath.

So tell us, what is the true narrative that we should all be following? Clearly you must know, if you're talking down other narratives being presented.

[Mibbes Aye]

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So tell us, what is the true narrative that we should all be following? Clearly you must know, if you're talking down other narratives being presented.

I think you misunderstand the concept of narratives.

[Fife-Hibee]

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I think you misunderstand the concept of narratives.

Then please, feel free to explain the concept that I appear to be struggling to grasp here. Your post seemed to suggest that Hibrandenburg was presenting a narrative that nobody else follows.

I'd be interested to know which narratives you believe people do follow.

[Mibbes Aye]

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Then please, feel free to explain the concept that I appear to be struggling to grasp here. Your post seemed to suggest that Hibrandenburg was presenting a narrative that nobody else follows.

I'd be interested to know which narratives you believe people do follow.

I’m happy to explain the concept you say you are struggling to grasp, though I am sure, in fact know from experience that Hibrandenburg can speak for himself.

You asked what ‘true narrative’ I was presenting as ‘clearly’ I had one. I suggested no such thing.

In this context, narratives are social constructions. I have challenged the validity of the one that was put forward in the post I quoted and have done similarly in the past.

I challenged it because the portrayal of ‘Scottish’ people as too downtrodden or scared or powerless is often used by those advocating nationalism, as an example of what they term ‘Scottish cringe’.

Unfortunately, it is advocates of nationalism alone who tend to use this argument, which suggests that it is actually a rather shabby device to stir up resentment. It fits very well with the separatist response to the referendum result, where No voters were either stupid, scared or senile though.

In answer to your last point, that’s why I queried your grasp of narratives. Narratives are fluid, dynamic and ultimately constructed by the interchange of language, ideas, discourse and in this day and age, everything from Twitter through to what books people read and what conversations they have with family, friends and colleagues through to what adverts they see and what they watch on YouTube, Netflix or Amazon Prime. Narratives are always contested and contestable but obviously some carry more weight at certain times and certain places than others do.

[Fife-Hibee]

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I’m happy to explain the concept you say you are struggling to grasp, though I am sure, in fact know from experience that Hibrandenburg can speak for himself.

You asked what ‘true narrative’ I was presenting as ‘clearly’ I had one. I suggested no such thing.

In this context, narratives are social constructions. I have challenged the validity of the one that was put forward in the post I quoted and have done similarly in the past.

I challenged it because the portrayal of ‘Scottish’ people as too downtrodden or scared or powerless is often used by those advocating nationalism, as an example of what they term ‘Scottish cringe’.

Unfortunately, it is advocates of nationalism alone who tend to use this argument, which suggests that it is actually a rather shabby device to stir up resentment. It fits very well with the separatist response to the referendum result, where No voters were either stupid, scared or senile though.

In answer to your last point, that’s why I queried your grasp of narratives. Narratives are fluid, dynamic and ultimately constructed by the interchange of language, ideas, discourse and in this day and age, everything from Twitter through to what books people read and what conversations they have with family, friends and colleagues through to what adverts they see and what they watch on YouTube, Netflix or Amazon Prime. Narratives are always contested and contestable but obviously some carry more weight at certain times and certain places than others do.

I'm sure they can. I just thought i'd ease in on this as you appeared to be claiming that they and them alone only held such a narrative. Good to see that you've corrected it with this post though. Suddenly it has gone from being the narrative of 1 individual to the narrative of over 1 and a half million.

[Mibbes Aye]

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I'm sure they can. I just thought i'd ease in on this as you appeared to be claiming that they and them alone only held such a narrative. Good to see that you've corrected it with this post though. Suddenly it has gone from being the narrative of 1 individual to the narrative of over 1 and a half million.

You are struggling now I’m afraid.

If you go back and look at the posts I said ‘people like you’ and in the next sentence said ‘you’. It’s still a plural even if you chose to read it wrong.

And it’s not the narrative of 1.5 million.

It’s the narrative of a really disaffected minority who haven’t come to terms with the result and want to create a story of resentment and playing the Scottish electorate as stupid, weak or both.

[Fife-Hibee]

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You are struggling now I’m afraid.

If you go back and look at the posts I said ‘people like you’ and in the next sentence said ‘you’. It’s still a plural even if you chose to read it wrong.

And it’s not the narrative of 1.5 million.

It’s the narrative of a really disaffected minority who haven’t come to terms with the result and want to create a story of resentment and playing the Scottish electorate as stupid, weak or both.

You said "You want to create this false narrative that no one else is even suggesting."

I'm asking you what the true narrative is. You appear to be taking on the narrative of people "playing the Scottish electorate". Yet, you've provided nothing that gives your narrative anymore credibility than the narrative presented by Hibrandenburg.

You appear to be under the impression that your narrative is law and any narrative you don't agree with is false.

[Mibbes Aye]

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You said "You want to create this false narrative that no one else is even suggesting."

I'm asking you what the true narrative is. You appear to be taking on the narrative of people "playing the Scottish electorate". Yet, you've provided nothing that gives your narrative anymore credibility than the narrative presented by Hibrandenburg.

You appear to be under the impression that your narrative is law and any narrative you don't agree with is false.

As I say, you don’t seem to grasp the concept of narratives.

They are not there to be ‘true’, that would be stupid, and I’m not suggesting there is a true narrative, by definition they are subjective and constructed.

What there are however is false or falsely constructed narratives, which are a particular trope of nationalists and should be challenged at every opportunity, on the basis that they seem to lack rationale.

Your last sentence is unworthy, I make no such claim, I’d like you to demonstrate my narrative and where I said it was law. In your own time.

Are you on this thread for respite from Hibbyradge on the other thread? You are struggling a bit on both, to be honest.

[lapsedhibee]

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The debates are utterly meaningless due to the fact that most Tories will have already made up their mind. A T.V. debate only really makes sense when the public are the one's who get to choose.

Possibly too late to affect the outcome of this leadership election, but these debates may well have a bearing on what happens in the next one in November/December.

[James310]

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Aye, they had nothing to do politically with the Czech Republic, nobody had a mortgage or pension there. They were all just living in caves.

They're just not like is at all. 😂😂😂

All their mortgages and pensions were converted to Euros, all our mortgages and pensions will not be converted to the new currency. So no, not like our situation at all, you were correct there. Unless you have proof otherwise. Please share.

But let's stick to the path we have chosen, not some other country who chose a different path. So in your opinion how long will we be using Sterling for, and what is your opinion on the 6 tests, how long would test 6 for example take to achieve? Separation of our trading and economic cycle with the rest of the UK will surely take some time? All relevant to the question about Scotland joining the EU.

I imagine your response will be some emojis and an avoidance of the question, because when anyone asks a question that requires an answer of substance you go back to the emojis. Let's see.

[ronaldo7]

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All their mortgages and pensions were converted to Euros, all our mortgages and pensions will not be converted to the new currency. So no not like our situation at all, you were correct there. Unless you have proof otherwise. Please share.

But let's stick to the path we have chosen, not some other country who chose a different path. So in your opinion how long will we be using Sterling for, and what is your opinion on the 6 tests, how long would test 6 for example take to achieve? Separation of our trading and economic cycle with the rest of the UK will surely take some time?

I imagine your response will be some emojis and an avoidance of the question, because when anyone asks a question that requires an answer of substance you go back to the emojis. Let's see.

When you give me the answer of how, Slovakia, and the Czech Republic had nothing to do with each other politically, which you've said, we can maybe move on. Considering they shared an area of land with each other for some time, I'd be interested how they could have avoided each other for so long.

The Velvet divorce is one you should read up on. It will eventually take you to an actual country being set up, with a currency in a number of weeks.

The trouble is, you don't want to hear of these things which "actually occurred", it doesn't suit your narrative of, it's too hard.

At least you're on the correct thread today. Tories are lying *******s, traces of tory, with a hint of lib Dem.

I'm off to work now, so I'll leave you to your morning read of the daily heil, and torygraph.

[James310]

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When you give me the answer of how, Slovakia, and the Czech Republic had nothing to do with each other politically, which you've said, we can maybe move on. Considering they shared an area of land with each other for some time, I'd be interested how they could have avoided each other for so long.

The Velvet divorce is one you should read up on. It will eventually take you to an actual country being set up, with a currency in a number of weeks.

The trouble is, you don't want to hear of these things which "actually occurred", it doesn't suit your narrative of, it's too hard.

At least you're on the correct thread today. Tories are lying *******s, traces of tory, with a hint of lib Dem.

I'm off to work now, so I'll leave you to your morning read of the daily heil, and torygraph.

Ok, I was wrong in that one aspect. But Slovakias path is nothing like the path Scotland has chosen. I have laid out the path the SNP have chosen, let's focus on that.

Now can you answer the questions? No emojis allowed.

[Fife-Hibee]

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Ok, I was wrong in that one aspect. But Slovakias path is nothing like the path Scotland has chosen. I have laid out the path the SNP have chosen, let's focus on that.

Now can you answer the questions? No emojis allowed.

What’s the SNPs path got to do with anything? What is it with unionists and this idea that an independent Scotland somehow equates to an SNP Scotland? An independent Scotland may well reject the SNP vision. Independence gives us the power to do that.

It’s terrifying just how many people in Scotland have bought into the “independence = SNP = bad” narrative in the British MSM.

Try actually thinking for a change.