The EU Referendum (How did you vote?)

[Fife-Hibee]

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They didn't have to back Labour in a vote of confidence, there wasn't going to be one, but they decided to put the motion forward themselves.

Oh I can assure you, there was. You can delude yourself all you like. But Labour were a failing government under Callaghan and were losing public and political confidence rapidly.

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There was no trap laid by Labour. The Tartan Tories laid it off their own back.

Labour knew exactly what they were doing when they backtracked over devolution. They knew it would put the SNP in a lose/lose situation if a vote of no confidence or general election were to be called. I'm just delighted that they took Labour down with them.

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I have no idea why you're banging on about Labour. I'm not defending them. I'm not even discussing them. They were pish then and they're pish now. You've still not explained what they've got to do with me.

However, there was no excuse for the SNP siding with Thatcher, yet you defend it. That's shameful and not just a touch hypocritical.

You're right, they were pish. Which is exactly why they were on limited time regardless of anything the SNP did. But there you go again. Talking about the SNP as if it was their sworn duty to keep Labour in government regardless of how poorly they treated Scotland.

[lord bunberry]

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How was putting Thatcher in no. 10 in the interests of Scotland?

It got rid of the Labour government that betrayed Scotland. Obviously that choice was a disaster, but maybe if Labour hadn’t sold us down the river we wouldn’t have been in that position. The lessons of that election have been learned by one side , but not by the other. Labour is currently sharing power in around 10 councils in Scotland with the tories. Labour in Scotland are finished.

[Mibbes Aye]

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It got rid of the Labour government that betrayed Scotland. Obviously that choice was a disaster, but maybe if Labour hadn’t sold us down the river we wouldn’t have been in that position. The lessons of that election have been learned by one side , but not by the other. Labour is currently sharing power in around 10 councils in Scotland with the tories. Labour in Scotland are finished.

After the 1979 GE Labour were pretty dominant for a good few decades in Scotland and when in Government introduces the Devolution Bill. UK Labour government brought in the minimum wage, child tax credits, pensioner credits and SureStart. And found the funding to replace the crumbling schools and hospitals that were commonplace in the mid-nineties.

Labour in government in Scotland saw some really progressive legislation introduced - land reform, mental health, incapacity all stand out.

Politics is cyclical and Labour are in a bad place just now in Scotland. Whether they can recover in their present guise is debatable. Since 2010 politics has seemed far more fluid. No one really anticipated the potential for coalition UK government or the rise of populism but that was maybe naive, when allied to the increased instant gratification offered by the growth of tech, the internet and social media.

I don’t see traditional Labour values dying as such, though I worry about how many would cleave to a broad prospectus (and that’s true for all the established parties). People expect single-choice issues now. More than that, the two referenda demonstrated the deep divides within society, not necessarily being down party lines and it is hard to avoid the impression that we are heading towards a la carte politics, which I’m not sure I find reassuring.

[lord bunberry]

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After the 1979 GE Labour were pretty dominant for a good few decades in Scotland and when in Government introduces the Devolution Bill. UK Labour government brought in the minimum wage, child tax credits, pensioner credits and SureStart. And found the funding to replace the crumbling schools and hospitals that were commonplace in the mid-nineties.

Labour in government in Scotland saw some really progressive legislation introduced - land reform, mental health, incapacity all stand out.

Politics is cyclical and Labour are in a bad place just now in Scotland. Whether they can recover in their present guise is debatable. Since 2010 politics has seemed far more fluid. No one really anticipated the potential for coalition UK government or the rise of populism but that was maybe naive, when allied to the increased instant gratification offered by the growth of tech, the internet and social media.

I don’t see traditional Labour values dying as such, though I worry about how many would cleave to a broad prospectus (and that’s true for all the established parties). People expect single-choice issues now. More than that, the two referenda demonstrated the deep divides within society, not necessarily being down party lines and it is hard to avoid the impression that we are heading towards a la carte politics, which I’m not sure I find reassuring.

That’s a fair summary. Traditional Labour values have been adopted by the SNP while the Labour Party flounder in a mealstrom of indecision and irrelevance. Scotland needs a firm leader and while I accept you don’t agree, I think we have one.

[Mibbes Aye]

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That’s a fair summary. Traditional Labour values have been adopted by the SNP while the Labour Party flounder in a mealstrom of indecision and irrelevance. Scotland needs a firm leader and while I accept you don’t agree, I think we have one.

Cheers. I think if the SNP have done anything right, they have aimed, and rightly so, to try and look managerialist and capable of governing. I think they struggle with the pressures in health and education especially, and ultimately they are the two most critical things they have to get right but I will happily applaud the strategic policy shift to a human rights-based approach and happy to acknowledge that is progressive. There is a question as to how much that is ministers and how much it is civil servants. I think there is appetite on both sides, but as with anything, some ministers and some civil servants are more competent and more signed-up than others.

The long-standing freeze on the council tax was at the front of at least a couple of SNP manifestos and that didn’t reflect traditional Labour values. But Labour in Scotland has withered and needs to find a way of tapping back into the R H Tawney-style politics that made it credible in the first place.

FTAOD I mean Tawney and also to an extent John Maxton, Keir Hardie and Ramsay MacDonald and a moralist approach to government and civic society.

The idea that social justice is worth pursuing and that community, whether of place, interest or belief is a good thing. And that acquisitiveness and selfishness are ultimately destructive.

[lord bunberry]

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Cheers. I think if the SNP have done anything right, they have aimed, and rightly so, to try and look managerialist and capable of governing. I think they struggle with the pressures in health and education especially, and ultimately they are the two most critical things they have to get right but I will happily applaud the strategic policy shift to a human rights-based approach and happy to acknowledge that is progressive. There is a question as to how much that is ministers and how much it is civil servants. I think there is appetite on both sides, but as with anything, some ministers and some civil servants are more competent and more signed-up than others.

The long-standing freeze on the council tax was at the front of at least a couple of SNP manifestos and that didn’t reflect traditional Labour values. But Labour in Scotland has withered and needs to find a way of tapping back into the R H Tawney-style politics that made it credible in the first place.

FTAOD I mean Tawney and also to an extent John Maxton, Keir Hardie and Ramsay MacDonald and a moralist approach to government and civic society.

The idea that social justice is worth pursuing and that community, whether of place, interest or belief is a good thing. And that acquisitiveness and selfishness are ultimately destructive.

In fairness has any government ever solved the problem of health and education? We set prettty high standards in this particular field. As for social justice I think the SNP has done more than most governments to address this.

[Bristolhibby]

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Its certainly a very positive opinion.

Thought you wanted independence not to shift power and control over to even further away big guns Germany and France who literally control the EU, ask Greece how that went for them when they big guns took over their economy slashing government spending and public services.

The Greece trope.

WE ARE’NT GREECE! In any stretch of imagination we are nothing like Greece.

J

[Hibbyradge]

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Oh I can assure you, there was. You can delude yourself all you like. But Labour were a failing government under Callaghan and were losing public and political confidence rapidly.



Labour knew exactly what they were doing when they backtracked over devolution. They knew it would put the SNP in a lose/lose situation if a vote of no confidence or general election were to be called. I'm just delighted that they took Labour down with them.



You're right, they were pish. Which is exactly why they were on limited time regardless of anything the SNP did. But there you go again. Talking about the SNP as if it was their sworn duty to keep Labour in government regardless of how poorly they treated Scotland.

When the facts don't suit you, you just make up other stories which do.

You have no idea if there would have been another motion of no confidence, never mind assure me that there would have been.

Labour didn't backtrack. They changed the rules before the referendum.

I am criticising the Tartan Tories for putting Thatcher in No. 10. It wasn't their duty to support anyone, but they chose to support the Conservative and Unionist Party.

They didn't do that for the good of Scotland. They did it out if spite and as you say, "to take Labour down with them".

[Hibbyradge]

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It got rid of the Labour government that betrayed Scotland. Obviously that choice was a disaster, but maybe if Labour hadn’t sold us down the river we wouldn’t have been in that position. The lessons of that election have been learned by one side , but not by the other. Labour is currently sharing power in around 10 councils in Scotland with the tories. Labour in Scotland are finished.

Getting rid of Labour was just a punishment filed out by an angry and instinctively right wing group, but it was not in the interests of anyone but the Tories, certainly not the people of Scotland.

The SNP starred moving to the left after '79 when people like Alex Salmond, who were not comfortable with the SNPs actions that year, started to become more influential.

What FH doesn't understand is that I'm not defending Labour's actions which were deeply disappointing, but I'm criticising the SNPs reaction to it.

They should have used the time remaining to attack Labour's "treachery" etc and galvanise the Yes voters towards their own party. Instead, they acted like spoilt children and threw their toys, and Scotland, out of the pram.

[Hibrandenburg]

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When the facts don't suit you, you just make up other stories which do.

You have no idea if there would have been another motion of no confidence, never mind assure me that there would have been.

Labour didn't backtrack. They changed the rules before the referendum.

I am criticising the Tartan Tories for putting Thatcher in No. 10. It wasn't their duty to support anyone, but they chose to support the Conservative and Unionist Party.

They didn't do that for the good of Scotland. They did it out if spite and as you say, "to take Labour down with them".

I'm trying to imagine what I'd do today if I had the deciding vote on whether the Tories stayed in power with a yet unknown PM or Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister. Neither option fills me with enthusiasm.

[Hibbyradge]

And I'll go back to the reason I brought these events up in the first place.

People were saying that they could never forgive the Liberals for forming a coalition with Cameron in 2010.

I'm merely pointing out that people's attitudes change.

The Libs will tell you that they couldn't work with Brown as he was universally disliked, was blamed for the recession, and had left the country on the verge of bankruptcy. They'll tell you that their involvement in government mitigated the worst of the Tories austerity measures.

They'll tell you that it was in the interests of the British people.

I think that Thatcher was much much worse than the 2010 government, and there was no upside at all, but I've forgiven the SNP for supporting her, in as much as I voted Yes in 2014 and continued to vote for them until I moved.

[Hibbyradge]

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I'm trying to imagine what I'd do today if I had the deciding vote on whether the Tories stayed in power with a yet unknown PM or Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister. Neither option fills me with enthusiasm.

Enthusiasm is definitely absent, but it would be a simple choice for me. Corbyn.

[Callum_62]

Latest polling is erm, interesting

LD winning with 24
Brexit on 22
Lab and cons on 19

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

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And I'll go back to the reason I brought these events up in the first place.

People were saying that they could never forgive the Liberals for forming a coalition with Cameron in 2010.

I'm merely pointing out that people's attitudes change.

The Libs will tell you that they couldn't work with Brown as he was universally disliked, was blamed for the recession, and had left the country on the verge of bankruptcy. They'll tell you that their involvement in government mitigated the worst of the Tories austerity measures.

They'll tell you that it was in the interests of the British people.

I think that Thatcher was much much worse than the 2010 government, but I've forgiven the SNP for supporting her, in as much as I voted Yes in 2014 and continued to vote for them until I moved.

The SNP lashed out in anger at Labour. That’s not the same thing as supporting Thatch and certainly nothing like going into a coalition.

[Hibrandenburg]

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And I'll go back to the reason I brought these events up in the first place.

People were saying that they could never forgive the Liberals for forming a coalition with Cameron in 2010.

I'm merely pointing out that people's attitudes change.

The Libs will tell you that they couldn't work with Brown as he was universally disliked, was blamed for the recession, and had left the country on the verge of bankruptcy. They'll tell you that their involvement in government mitigated the worst of the Tories austerity measures.

They'll tell you that it was in the interests of the British people.

I think that Thatcher was much much worse than the 2010 government, but I've forgiven the SNP for supporting her, in as much as I voted Yes in 2014 and continued to vote for them until I moved.

Like the SNP, the liberals are in essence a different party to back then. A party is made up of people and most of those people have moved on. Saying you hate a party for one thing that happened decades ago is like saying you'd vote for a party through thick and thin, both views are equally regressive.

[Hibbyradge]

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The SNP lashed out in anger at Labour. That’s not the same thing as supporting Thatch and certainly nothing like going into a coalition.

It was totally unprofessional and it gave us full on, undiluted Thatcher.

No, it's not like going into coalition. The SNP didn't get their hands any dirtier, but they were still culpable.

[Hibbyradge]

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Like the SNP, the liberals are in essence a different party to back then. A party is made up of people and most of those people have moved on. Saying you hate a party for one thing that happened decades ago is like saying you'd vote for a party through thick and thin, both views are equally regressive.

I agree. I think that's my point.

[grunt]

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I'm merely pointing out that people's attitudes change.

If I may say, you've got a funny way of showing it. You've been like a dog with a bone on this topic, over events which took place 40 years ago and where none of the main protagonists are still politically active, if they're even alive. Which is a bit different to a political event 9 years ago, where some of the people are still around (maybe?) Would the current SNP leadership take the same action - I don't know. I'm not saying it's not a valid debate, but it's been a bit full on IMO. Just saying.

[JeMeSouviens]

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If I may say, you've got a funny way of showing it. You've been like a dog with a bone on this topic, over events which took place 40 years ago and where none of the main protagonists are still politically active, if they're even alive. Which is a bit different to a political event 9 years ago, where some of the people are still around (maybe?) Would the current SNP leadership take the same action - I don't know. I'm not saying it's not a valid debate, but it's been a bit full on IMO. Just saying.

It's a reasonable enough point but somewhat overegged I feel.

It's hard to view the 1979 events objectively "knowing what we know now". Although it was obviously a strategic mistake from the Nats, they had already achieved the big shift in Labour towards devolution. Scotland was never (imo) going to make the jump to Indy in 1 go. In fact I didn't even think it was a possibility in my lifetime until 2014.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Like the SNP, the liberals are in essence a different party to back then. A party is made up of people and most of those people have moved on. Saying you hate a party for one thing that happened decades ago is like saying you'd vote for a party through thick and thin, both views are equally regressive.

I don't think they're that different for the most part, although obviously they had Clegg & co at the top who were about as far to the right as Libs go, the Orange Book crowd.

Swinson & Davey, their leadership contenders, were both ministers in the coalition.

[Hibbyradge]

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If I may say, you've got a funny way of showing it. You've been like a dog with a bone on this topic, over events which took place 40 years ago and where none of the main protagonists are still politically active, if they're even alive. Which is a bit different to a political event 9 years ago, where some of the people are still around (maybe?) Would the current SNP leadership take the same action - I don't know. I'm not saying it's not a valid debate, but it's been a bit full on IMO. Just saying.

I agree, but this board does that to you sometimes.

I make what on the face of it seemed like a valid, uncontroversial point that people can and do change their minds only to find myself having to defend it.

The SNP did what they did and I left the party because of it. Years down the line, I find myself voting for them again.

It got messy when FH decided to justify what they did, which wasn't the point, but it suggested that I was wrong to be angry at the time.

Then it just got sillier and sillier with FH twisting and turning, making things up, putting words into my mouth and throwing all sorts of straw men at it, in order not to acknowledge any of my points.

If I was a dog with a bone, FH was the nippy wee bugger trying to get it off me.

"Tartan Tories" though. Ouch. I can understand why he'd like to rewrite history.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

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You wouldn't be posting that if I was a nat separatist and arguing in the same way for independence, would you?

I don't think you would so going to ignore you and your posting from now on.

I'm devastated.

[Fife-Hibee]

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After the 1979 GE Labour were pretty dominant for a good few decades in Scotland and when in Government introduces the Devolution Bill. UK Labour government brought in the minimum wage, child tax credits, pensioner credits and SureStart. And found the funding to replace the crumbling schools and hospitals that were commonplace in the mid-nineties.

Labour in government in Scotland saw some really progressive legislation introduced - land reform, mental health, incapacity all stand out.

Politics is cyclical and Labour are in a bad place just now in Scotland. Whether they can recover in their present guise is debatable. Since 2010 politics has seemed far more fluid. No one really anticipated the potential for coalition UK government or the rise of populism but that was maybe naive, when allied to the increased instant gratification offered by the growth of tech, the internet and social media.

I don’t see traditional Labour values dying as such, though I worry about how many would cleave to a broad prospectus (and that’s true for all the established parties). People expect single-choice issues now. More than that, the two referenda demonstrated the deep divides within society, not necessarily being down party lines and it is hard to avoid the impression that we are heading towards a la carte politics, which I’m not sure I find reassuring.

The devolution bill was brought in under pressure from the European Union. Labour did not want to devolve powers but had no real choice in the matter. They then stole the credit for doing so. Just like the tories, they would abolish Holyrood in an instant given the opportunity. They are no less anti-devolution than the Conservative Party.

[Fife-Hibee]

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Enthusiasm is definitely absent, but it would be a simple choice for me. Corbyn.

So you're mad at the SNP for playing their hand in bringing the Labour Government down. Yet, you would be prepared to bring the entire economy down out of spite for the Conservative Party?

[Hibbyradge]

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So you're mad at the SNP for playing their hand in bringing the Labour Government down. Yet, you would be prepared to bring the entire economy down out of spite for the Conservative Party?

What an utterly ridiculous and childish comment.

Vote for Corbyn to spite the Tories!

I suppose you'd vote Conservative if those were your choices. Or maybe you'd duck the responsibility altogether and do something else like hide in the lavvy a la Levein.

Oh, and you haven't been paying attention. I'm not mad at the SNP any more.

[Fife-Hibee]

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What an utterly ridiculous and childish comment.

Vote for Corbyn to spite the Tories!

I suppose you'd vote Conservative if those were your choices. Or maybe you'd duck the responsibility altogether and do something else like hide in the lavvy a la Levein.

Oh, and you haven't been paying attention. I'm not mad at the SNP any more.

Fortunately in Scotland, people like myself don't need to decide between the "tough economic choices" party and the "spend what isn't there" party.

[Hibbyradge]

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Fortunately in Scotland, people like myself don't need to decide between the "tough economic choices" party and the "spend what isn't there" party.

Fortunately for people like you in Scotland and all over the world, they don't understand the word "hypothetical".

Unfortunately for them, however, is that they are unable to have an adult conversation and find themselves not being taken seriously.

You've already proved that you prefer the Tories, so I guess you don't really need to respond any further.

[Fife-Hibee]

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Fortunately for people like you in Scotland and all over the world, they don't understand the word "hypothetical".

Unfortunately for them, however, is that they are unable to have an adult conversation and find themselves not being taken seriously.

You've already proved that you prefer the Tories, so I guess you don't really need to respond any further.

Coming from Brexit supporting Yorkshire. How are Labours prospects looking there these days?

[The Modfather]

Tornadoes70 and James310 have been quiet the last few days, are they now posting under Hibbyradge & Fife Hibee? 🤔

[Moulin Yarns]

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Tornadoes70 and James310 have been quiet the last few days, are they now posting under Hibbyradge & Fife Hibee? 🤔

😂