The EU Referendum (How did you vote?)

[Hibbyradge]

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Voted Green and will probably continue to do so from now on.

I'd vote green, but they got less than 2% last election so they've absolutely no chance in my constituency.

[ronaldo7]

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I remember, Ronnie.

The point is about the electorate being able to forget or forgive past behaviours (if that's the right word).

I was a member of the SNP then and I thought we were going to, literally, change the world.

Then one vote of confidence later and crash, bang, wallop.

I know what the SNP were voting against, imagine having the audacity to count dead people in a referendum, although nobody but the SNP seemed to bother back then. The 40% rule was a unionist gerrymander. I was a labour member back then. The 34 labour rebels seem to get written out of the history books for some reason.


Anyway, as I said in the post above. Voted SNP.👌

Have a nice night, I'm away to get the vote out. 😂

[Hibbyradge]

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The SNP didn't vote with anyone. They voted against Labour on their own accord. They weren't giving it high fives to the tories. They were more than likely gobsmacked that Labour turned down the offer to remain in Government.

Labour made the error of believing that it was their god given right to claim the SNP votes after what they did to Scotland. So many decades of potential Scottish wealth, flushed down the river Thames. All because Labour bent the rules when they didn't like the way the referendum was heading.

In truth, it wasn't the SNP that was damaged, it was Scotland on a whole.

Eh, naw, the confidence motion was brought by Thatcher, not the SNP. They voted with the Tories and the DUP , the UUP and the UUUP for Thatcher's motion, high fives or not.

Your middle paragraph is nonsense, but it might apply to 2010.

The last paragraph is correct. It was Thatcher that damaged Scotland. That's her who the SNP helped put into power, whether inadvertently or not.

[Hibbyradge]

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I know what the SNP were voting against, imagine having the audacity to count dead people in a referendum, although nobody but the SNP seemed to bother back then. The 40% rule was a unionist gerrymander. I was a labour member back then. The 34 labour rebels seem to get written out of the history books for some reason.


Anyway, as I said in the post above. Voted SNP.👌

Have a nice night, I'm away to get the vote out. 😂

Good luck. 👍

[Fife-Hibee]

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Eh, naw, the confidence motion was brought by Thatcher, not the SNP. They voted with the Tories and the DUP , the UUP and the UUUP for Thatcher's motion, high fives or not.

Your middle paragraph is nonsense, but it might apply to 2010.

The last paragraph is correct. It was Thatcher that damaged Scotland. That's her who the SNP helped put into power, whether inadvertently or not.

Incorrect. It was the SNP that put forward the proposals for a vote of no confidence after consulting with the Liberal Party. Only Thatcher could put it into motion, which of course she did.

Labour had 2 opportunities to remain in power. The one that i've already mentioned and the other one being not screwing Scotland over on devolution.

[Hibbyradge]

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Incorrect. It was the SNP that put forward the proposals for a vote of no confidence after consulting with the Liberal Party. Only Thatcher could put it into motion, which of course she did.

Labour had 2 opportunities to remain in power. The one that i've already mentioned and the other one being not screwing Scotland over on devolution.

I left the SNP because of what they did.

Parliamentary niceties mean SFA to us simpletons in the electorate.

The simple fact of the matter is that the SNP helped put Thatcher into power. They didn't have to, but they did.

They paid the price for that immediately and for years to come.

[marinello59]

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More dead people were counted for a No vote than supported the Tories. Just ask Jim and his 34 labour rebels. 😱

Back on track, SNP. 🏁

You voted SNP?
I just fell off my seat.

[Fife-Hibee]

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I left the SNP because of what they did.

Parliamentary niceties mean SFA to us simpletons in the electorate.

The simple fact of the matter is that the SNP helped put Thatcher into power. They didn't have to, but they did.

They paid the price for that immediately and for years to come.

Then do you agree that Labour also helped put Thatcher into power? Or are they somehow blameless in all of this?

[Hibbyradge]

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Then do you agree that Labour also helped put Thatcher into power? Or are they somehow blameless in all of this?

Of course Labour didn't put Thatcher in, but I note your use of the word "also".

The fact of the matter is that the SNP voted against the Labour government. The only alternative the UK had was Thatcher ergo they helped get Labour out in order to get Thatcher in.

Or did they think something else, magical, was going to happen?

[Fife-Hibee]

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Of course Labour didn't put Thatcher in, but I note your use of the word "also".

The fact of the matter is that the SNP voted against the Labour government. The only alternative the UK had was Thatcher ergo they helped get Labour out in order to get Thatcher in.

Or did they think something else, magical, was going to happen?

But as i've already pointed out (and you've conveniently ignored). Labour had the option of remaining in Government and turned the offer down.

Labour turned down an offer to remain in Government knowing full well what would happen.

The SNP had their reasons for turning against Labour. What were Labours reasons?

[JeMeSouviens]

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The SNP didn’t have to enter in to an agreement with the Tories to prop up the 2007-11 minority government. They chose to do it.

They didn’t. It was vote by vote. Anyway, even if they had, did your mum not tell you 2 wrongs don’t make a right?

[JeMeSouviens]

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Eh, naw, the confidence motion was brought by Thatcher, not the SNP. They voted with the Tories and the DUP , the UUP and the UUUP for Thatcher's motion, high fives or not.

Your middle paragraph is nonsense, but it might apply to 2010.

The last paragraph is correct. It was Thatcher that damaged Scotland. That's her who the SNP helped put into power, whether inadvertently or not.

Don’t forget the Liberals who also voted no confidence.

The 79 election was due by October anyway, so Thatcher would have been barely delayed.

[Hibbyradge]

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But as i've already pointed out (and you've conveniently ignored). Labour had the option of remaining in Government and turned the offer down.

Labour turned down an offer to remain in Government knowing full well what would happen.

The SNP had their reasons for turning against Labour. What were Labours reasons?

You've lost me. What offer to remain in power?

[Hibbyradge]

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Don’t forget the Liberals who also voted no confidence.

The 79 election was due by October anyway, so Thatcher would have been barely delayed.

I've forgiven them both!

[Fife-Hibee]

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You've lost me. What offer to remain in power?

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Labour didn't fail because of the SNP. They failed because one of their own MPs at the time Sir Alfred Broughton was too ill to attend parliament (and sadly passed away not long after). The deputy chief Labour whip Walter Harrison approached Bernard Weatherill (the Conservative speaker) to enforce the "pairing convention". Which is an informal agreement between the ruling party and the opposition parties that in the event of an MP not be able to attend due to illness, the opposition have one of their own MPs abstain to make up for the loss. Bernard Weatherill offered to be the MP who would abstain for the Conservative Party and Walter Harrison turned the offer down.

Labour could have prevented Thatcher but chose not to enforce the pairing convention. We all know what happened next.

This.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_v...ard_Weatherill

[Hibbyradge]

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This.

That's not an offer to stay in power.

Illness and a terrible mistake on behalf of the chief whip is not a refusal.

In fact, Labour didn't refuse the pairing arrangement, they actively sought it.

As Wiki explains here, and as you are no doubt aware (are you), it was some ridiculous sense of honour that caused it not to happen;

"In the BBC documentary "A Parliamentary Coup" it was revealed that Bernard Weatherill played a critical role in the defeat of the government in the vote of confidence. As the vote loomed, Labour's deputy Chief Whip, Walter Harrison approached Weatherill to enforce the pairing convention that if a sick MP from the Government could not vote, an MP from the Opposition would abstain to compensate. Weatherill said that pairing had never been intended for votes on Matters of Confidence that meant the life or death of the Government and it would be impossible to find a Conservative MP who would agree to abstain. However, after a moment's reflection, he offered that he himself would abstain, because he felt it would be dishonourable to break his word with Harrison. Harrison was so impressed by Weatherill's offer – which would have effectively ended his political career – that he released Weatherill from his obligation and so the Government fell by one vote on the agreement of gentlemen."

[Fife-Hibee]

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That's not an offer to stay in power.

Illness and a terrible mistake on behalf of the chief whip is not a refusal.

In fact, Labour didn't refuse the pairing arrangement, they actively sought it.

As Wiki explains here, and as you are no doubt aware (are you), it was some ridiculous sense of honour that caused it not to happen;

"In the BBC documentary "A Parliamentary Coup" it was revealed that Bernard Weatherill played a critical role in the defeat of the government in the vote of confidence. As the vote loomed, Labour's deputy Chief Whip, Walter Harrison approached Weatherill to enforce the pairing convention that if a sick MP from the Government could not vote, an MP from the Opposition would abstain to compensate. Weatherill said that pairing had never been intended for votes on Matters of Confidence that meant the life or death of the Government and it would be impossible to find a Conservative MP who would agree to abstain. However, after a moment's reflection, he offered that he himself would abstain, because he felt it would be dishonourable to break his word with Harrison. Harrison was so impressed by Weatherill's offer – which would have effectively ended his political career – that he released Weatherill from his obligation and so the Government fell by one vote on the agreement of gentlemen."

I see. So the SNP voting against the confidence of a Labour government after being stabbed in the back is an unforgivable sin.

Labour not taking the opportunity to save themselves, thus enabling a Thatcher government is just an innocent mistake and done out of honour?

Aye, ok then.

[Hibbyradge]

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I see. So the SNP voting against the confidence of a Labour government after being stabbed in the back is an unforgivable sin.

Labour not taking the opportunity to save themselves, thus enabling a Thatcher government is just an innocent mistake and done out of honour?

Aye, ok then.

It's not like you to think a simple explanation hides a sinister conspiracy! Maybe the illness was faked too???

If the SNP hadn't voted with the Tories, in fact if they hadn't plotted against the Labour Government, there would have been no need for pairing, mistakes or otherwise.

No wonder you don't have much time for folk over the age of about 40. They can all remember why the SNP were known as The Tartan Tories.

[marinello59]

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They didn’t. It was vote by vote. Anyway, even if they had, did your mum not tell you 2 wrongs don’t make a right?

I’m making no judgement. I was replying to Fife who seems to think only other parties play real politics and should be punished for ever once they do. The 2007 SNP Government did a pretty good job.

[Hibbyradge]

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I’m making no judgement. I was replying to Fife who seems to think only other parties play real politics and should be punished for ever once they do. The 2007 SNP Government did a pretty good job.

My precise point about 1979.

[marinello59]

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Don’t forget the Liberals who also voted no confidence.

The 79 election was due by October anyway, so Thatcher would have been barely delayed.

Spot on. Thatcher was happening no matter what the other parties did.

[Beefster]

SNP. Needs must.

[Hibbyradge]

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Spot on. Thatcher was happening no matter what the other parties did.

Indeed. And that makes the SNPs decision to help her get in early even more stupid.

[Fife-Hibee]

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It's not like you to think a simple explanation hides a sinister conspiracy! Maybe the illness was faked too???

If the SNP hadn't voted with the Tories, in fact if they hadn't plotted against the Labour Government, there would have been no need for pairing, mistakes or otherwise.

No wonder you don't have much time for folk over the age of about 40. They can all remember why the SNP were known as The Tartan Tories.

Is "conspiracy" your buzz word or something? I simply pointed out an historical fact. Labour turned down an offer from a Conservative MP who was prepared to abstain on the vote of no confidence and they turned it down. They had the opportunity to remain in Government and actively chose not to do so.

It's all ifs and buts, isn't it? Likewise, you could say that if Labour hadn't (undemocratically) backtracked on Scottish devolution, then the SNP wouldn't have held the grievance against them.

It doesn't matter what way you slice it. It was ultimately Labours own doing. Perhaps they assessed the state the economy was in and didn't want to be the party to make tough economic decisions? Perhaps behind the stage curtain, Thatcher was a blessing in disguise for Labour. I guess we'll never really know.

[JeMeSouviens]

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SNP. Needs must.

Consider my gast flabbered.

[Hibbyradge]

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Is "conspiracy" your buzz word or something? I simply pointed out an historical fact. Labour turned down an offer from a Conservative MP who was prepared to abstain on the vote of no confidence and they turned it down. They had the opportunity to remain in Government and actively chose not to do so.

It's all ifs and buts, isn't it? Likewise, you could say that if Labour hadn't (undemocratically) backtracked on Scottish devolution, then the SNP wouldn't have held the grievance against them.

It doesn't matter what way you slice it. It was ultimately Labours own doing. Perhaps they assessed the state the economy was in and didn't want to be the party to make tough economic decisions? Perhaps behind the stage curtain, Thatcher was a blessing in disguise for Labour. I guess we'll never really know.

No, the way I sliced it as an SNP member at the time, was that the SNP should not have voted Labour down. And that was before the election.

Of course I blamed the Labour Party and (eventually) the nonsense that the left saddled it with, but the SNP should not have taken out their spite in that way.

They worked hard for 30 years to shed the Tartan Tories moniker, but I have no doubt that if the need arise, they'd vote with the Tories again.

But that's what politicians have to do. Staying pure and powerless doesn't make one a great politician. It makes them a principled individual who shouldnt be a politician.

[weecounty hibby]

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No, the way I sliced it as an SNP member at the time, was that the SNP should not have voted Labour down. And that was before the election.

Of course I blamed the Labour Party and (eventually) the nonsense that the left saddled it with, but the SNP should not have taken out their spite in that way.

They worked hard for 30 years to shed the Tartan Tories moniker, but I have no doubt that if the need arise, they'd vote with the Tories again.

But that's what politicians have to do. Staying pure and powerless doesn't make one a great politician. It makes them a principled individual who shouldnt be a politician.

I'm not sure the SNP would side with the Tories unless it GUARANTEED independence and that's unlikely. More likely to side with Labour as I think that the Labour No voters would be more likely to be persuaded on the case for independence than the Conservative and Unionist No voters.

[Hibbyradge]

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I'm not sure the SNP would side with the Tories unless it GUARANTEED independence and that's unlikely. More likely to side with Labour as I think that the Labour No voters would be more likely to be persuaded on the case for independence than the Conservative and Unionist No voters.

I'm not sure the SNP would want to side with either of them, but if it was expedient to do so, they would.

The SNP are currently flavour of the month.

But, as Labour, and previously the Tories, found out, you're only flavour of the month for a month.

[stoneyburn hibs]

SNP, Awful quiet at the polling station.

[marinello59]

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I'm not sure the SNP would side with the Tories unless it GUARANTEED independence and that's unlikely. More likely to side with Labour as I think that the Labour No voters would be more likely to be persuaded on the case for independence than the Conservative and Unionist No voters.

The point is if it was politically advantageous the SNP would work with anybody as Salmond did in 2007.