Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Radium]

What is Petrie's role on the SPFL board? or was it a full meeting.
Thought he was on the Professional Game board (or whatever it's called) and SFA blazer.




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[JeMeSouviens]

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Conversely, I fully expect Petrie to advise the new SPFL board on a strategy for avoiding doing anything regarding the worst sporting scandal in British football, as he and his fellow SFA lickspittles have done.

Think you're right but at least it's winding up the Huns.

The only way the SFA/SPFL will do anything is if there is sustained, organised fan pressure. The mentality is sweep it under the rug* whenever possible.

* Ironic given Wiggy Milne finally gave up on his.

[JeMeSouviens]

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what is petrie's role on the spfl board? or was it a full meeting.
thought he was on the professional game board (or whatever it's called) and sfa blazer.




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spfl agm.

[Bostonhibby]

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They are indeed. If you want a real laugh on a Monday afternoon, take a wee gander onto follow follow, and have a swatch at their thread on Petrie...

Jeez, suddenly kickback looks rationale and full of intellectuals. If only I could get back in



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[Ozyhibby]

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[SirDavidsNapper]

I'm feeling rather exuberant this afternoon

[Fuzzywuzzy]

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Not unexpected. Weak and spineless. How can that wreck of a club hold so much sway over the governing body. There must be a lot of bodies at the bottom of the pond.

[The_Sauz]

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They weren't paying their players outside of their declared contracts as lodged with the SFA. Although I suspect Hearts were, there is no proof.
Rangers were committing fraud and have been caught. All the evidence is there. It's a slam dunk. I wish it were the same for the yams but it's not unfortunately.


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Now I could be wrong, but I'm sure Vlad was trying to get Hearts players to sign new contracts under Kaunas FC and then loan them back to Hearts! That way they would be taxed in Lithuania at a reduced tax level than here in the UK
Craig Gordon was one player who refused to sign a new contract at Hearts (he was going to do so before he found it was a Kaunas contract) and that was the start of the player rebellion against Mad Vlad.

[Spike Mandela]

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Not unexpected. Weak and spineless. How can that wreck of a club hold so much sway over the governing body. There must be a lot of bodies at the bottom of the pond.

All of them including Dempster and Petrie complicit if this is the case. Their silence is deafening as they already have our season ticket money.and couldn't give a **** about sporting integrity or all the things that were so important to them when they needed our money in 2012.

[Is It On....]

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I've no idea where he lives but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Barry the crab lives in one of many flats in the [developed] gated mansion.

After allegedly breaking the law and evading tax, maybe he is readying himself to a move to a different type of "gated mansion" in the next few years...

[Ozyhibby]

Definitely looks like they are preparing to ask us all to move on.


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[green day]

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All of them including Dempster and Petrie complicit if this is the case. Their silence is deafening as they already have our season ticket money.and couldn't give a **** about sporting integrity or all the things that were so important to them when they needed our money in 2012.

I think the phrase "legal advice being sought" is the important one before you throw LD and RP under any buses.

I am unclear what people want done here?

Results changed?

Any ideas on who "won" the tours de france that Lance had ceremonially removed? Me neither, as nobody really gives a toss as its such a mess.

Or is it just to remove their wins from the record books? What difference will it actually make in the real world???

Serious questions, by the way, not trying to be controversial.

[Ozyhibby]

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I think the phrase "legal advice being sought" is the important one before you throw LD and RP under any buses.

I am unclear what people want done here?

Results changed?

Any ideas on who "won" the tours de france that Lance had ceremonially removed? Me neither, as nobody really gives a toss as its such a mess.

Or is it just to remove their wins from the record books? What difference will it actually make in the real world???

Serious questions, by the way, not trying to be controversial.

Just apply the rules. Teams who play players who are not registered properly forfeit the match.
Their wins should be removed from the record books.
When Spartans failed to register a player properly for a Scottish cup game they were disqualified, why should it be different for Rangers?



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[Ozyhibby]

https://thecelticblog.com/2017/07/bl...the-fire-then/


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[JeMeSouviens]

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I think the phrase "legal advice being sought" is the important one before you throw LD and RP under any buses.

I am unclear what people want done here?

Results changed?

Any ideas on who "won" the tours de france that Lance had ceremonially removed? Me neither, as nobody really gives a toss as its such a mess.

Or is it just to remove their wins from the record books? What difference will it actually make in the real world???

Serious questions, by the way, not trying to be controversial.

It sends a signal (albeit about a million years too late) that cheating won't be tolerated and the rules will (eventually) be applied. I want Regan sacked as well tbh. Then I want someoe appointed who actually gives a **** about running a sport.

Ask yourself this: if the New Huns come up with a new dodgy way to bend the rules (and let's face it, with their "glib and shameless liar" at the helm, that's hardly a stretch), do you trust Scottish football's authorities to be right on top of it and robustly stamp it out?

[green day]

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Just apply the rules. Teams who play players who are not registered properly forfeit the match.
Their wins should be removed from the record books.
When Spartans failed to register a player properly for a Scottish cup game they were disqualified, why should it be different for Rangers?
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I get that and I am all for ramming anything right up the Rangers, but..........

What I am asking is - in a practical sense - what does disqualifying them from a tournament XYZ years ago mean?

If you played the Huns in a semi final do you get to replay the final (ridiculous of course), but you get my drift now?

[Spike Mandela]

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I think the phrase "legal advice being sought" is the important one before you throw LD and RP under any buses.

I am unclear what people want done here?

Results changed?

Any ideas on who "won" the tours de france that Lance had ceremonially removed? Me neither, as nobody really gives a toss as its such a mess.

Or is it just to remove their wins from the record books? What difference will it actually make in the real world???

Serious questions, by the way, not trying to be controversial.

Legal advice being sought can be tailored to suit any agenda they so wish as was seen in the restricted framework and lack of information given to the LNS commission.

The legal advice sought will be on how to fudge this whole issue and will not be open and transparent to the public.

It's a crock of ****!

[Ozyhibby]

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It sends a signal (albeit about a million years too late) that cheating won't be tolerated and the rules will (eventually) be applied. I want Regan sacked as well tbh. Then I want someoe appointed who actually gives a **** about running a sport.

Ask yourself this: if the New Huns come up with a new dodgy way to bend the rules (and let's face it, with their "glib and shameless liar" at the helm, that's hardly a stretch), do you trust Scottish football's authorities to be right on top of it and robustly stamp it out?

Exactly. We still do not have a proper FFP rule in place and a robust way of monitoring clubs spending.


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[green day]

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Exactly. We still do not have a proper FFP rule in place and a robust way of monitoring clubs spending.


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I thought there were Eufa rules on financial fair play?

[Ozyhibby]

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I thought there were Eufa rules on financial fair play?

They only apply if you qualify for Europe.


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[Ozyhibby]

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They only apply if you qualify for Europe.


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And appear not to be enforced, as Sevco clearly breached them this season but were allowed to play anyway.


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[Smartie]

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Just apply the rules. Teams who play players who are not registered properly forfeit the match.
Their wins should be removed from the record books.
When Spartans failed to register a player properly for a Scottish cup game they were disqualified, why should it be different for Rangers?



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Maybe that is not what the rules actually state?

I don't think this is as as simple as many people would like it to be. Dempster, Budge and all the other chairpeople (?) are answerable to their own fans and given the depth of feeling over this, I'm sure they'll want to represent the feelings of the fans.

Maybe there isn't actually a bulletproof legal process they can go through to strip titles? There certainly isn't a precedent. I see what you mean about Spartans being kicked out of a competition, but that happened at the time. Is there a rule that suggests titles can be stripped years after the event if a team has been found to field ineligible players?

I agree that titles should be stripped, but I say that with no knowledge of how the rules actually work. Might it be that proper legal advice HAS been sought and that there is genuinely nowhere for the authorities to go?

Throughout this whole Rangers fiasco, lots of people have suddenly become experts on everything from tax and company law to TUPE regulations and now onto the rules of football. I struggle to understand enough about my professional field of expertise without really knowing anything about any of this, although I know what I would like to be the case.

(I'm mainly trying to be devil's advocate btw).

[GreenNWhiteArmy]

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I get that and I am all for ramming anything right up the Rangers, but..........

What I am asking is - in a practical sense - what does disqualifying them from a tournament XYZ years ago mean?

If you played the Huns in a semi final do you get to replay the final (ridiculous of course), but you get my drift now?

I'm of the exact same position Green Day. In theory yeah it sounds great but it goes deeper than making said trophies null and void imo. Teams that lost semi finals, teams that potentially got relegated due to losses again the rangers.

Honestly I don't know the answers and wonder if we would be so persistent if it was Dundee, or a club further down the pyramid.

[marinello59]

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Maybe that is not what the rules actually state?

I don't think this is as as simple as many people would like it to be. Dempster, Budge and all the other chairpeople (?) are answerable to their own fans and given the depth of feeling over this, I'm sure they'll want to represent the feelings of the fans.

Maybe there isn't actually a bulletproof legal process they can go through to strip titles? There certainly isn't a precedent. I see what you mean about Spartans being kicked out of a competition, but that happened at the time. Is there a rule that suggests titles can be stripped years after the event if a team has been found to field ineligible players?

I agree that titles should be stripped, but I say that with no knowledge of how the rules actually work. Might it be that proper legal advice HAS been sought and that there is genuinely nowhere for the authorities to go?

Throughout this whole Rangers fiasco, lots of people have suddenly become experts on everything from tax and company law to TUPE regulations and now onto the rules of football. I struggle to understand enough about my professional field of expertise without really knowing anything about any of this, although I know what I would like to be the case.

(I'm mainly trying to be devil's advocate btw).

If people are being honest the real driving force behind seing titles stripped is not sporting integrity but the desire to see Sevco given another good kicking. I have no problem with that, I'd love to see their titles removed
If sporting integrity really mattered so much to fitba fans there would have been a massive clamour to see Hearts face further punishment for their financial doping. Apart from Hibs fans it did not happen, nobody else really cared. The authorities have to apply the rules and if none exist saying that title stripping ws a potential punishment then it makes it hard to do so.

[Ozyhibby]

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I'm of the exact same position Green Day. In theory yeah it sounds great but it goes deeper than making said trophies null and void imo. Teams that lost semi finals, teams that potentially got relegated due to losses again the rangers.

Honestly I don't know the answers and wonder if we would be so persistent if it was Dundee, or a club further down the pyramid.

If it was Dundee it would have happened by now.
You can't repair all the damage caused by this, all you can do is send a message that it will not be rewarded.
Lance Armstrong got guys thrown of his team who would not dope, ending their careers. There is nothing that can be done to help them but at least cycling done the right thing and voided all his results.
It is within the SPFL's power to void any title it awarded. That is a standard rule in all sports admin.


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[Spike Mandela]

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Throughout this whole Rangers fiasco, lots of people have suddenly become experts on everything from tax and company law to TUPE regulations and now onto the rules of football. I struggle to understand enough about my professional field of expertise without really knowing anything about any of this, although I know what I would like to be the case.

(I'm mainly trying to be devil's advocate btw).

Yeah, we are all simpletons because we don't know the legalese.

Cheats are cheats and it really isn't that difficult to see this for heaven's sake.

What we have become expert on is the corrupt/incompetent arse covering of our so called governing authorities whose agenda from day 1 has been to sweep all this under the carpet, protecting Rangers from every available sanction and treating ordinary punters like us as as if we were ****ing idiots.

As you may gather it makes my ****ing blood boil.

[Keith_M]

To answer the earlier question about what would be achieved.


As a Football Fan, I want to know the competitions my team takes part in have the same rules for all participating clubs. For example if one club can be ejected from a Cup Competition for having one improperly registered player, then all clubs should be subject to the same rules, otherwise the whole thing is unfair. In the case of Rangers, they had multiple improperly registered players over a number of years (side-letter contracts).

Even if you consider the current Rangers to be a new club, then retrospective stripping of titles is still necessary, to send out a message that when the rules are broken, the punishment will be meted out, regadless of who the club is.


If there are rules for some clubs and different rules for others, then we might as well just give up the whole thing.

[Ozyhibby]

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If people are being honest the real driving force behind seing titles stripped is not sporting integrity but the desire to see Sevco given another good kicking. I have no problem with that, I'd love to see their titles removed
If sporting integrity really mattered so much to fitba fans there would have been a massive clamour to see Hearts face further punishment for their financial doping. Apart from Hibs fans it did not happen, nobody else really cared. The authorities have to apply the rules and if none exist saying that title stripping ws a potential punishment then it makes it hard to do so.

There are rules that allow title stripping. Happy to go after the yams as well but there is no evidence against them out in the public domain.


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[Ozyhibby]

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Maybe that is not what the rules actually state?

I don't think this is as as simple as many people would like it to be. Dempster, Budge and all the other chairpeople (?) are answerable to their own fans and given the depth of feeling over this, I'm sure they'll want to represent the feelings of the fans.

Maybe there isn't actually a bulletproof legal process they can go through to strip titles? There certainly isn't a precedent. I see what you mean about Spartans being kicked out of a competition, but that happened at the time. Is there a rule that suggests titles can be stripped years after the event if a team has been found to field ineligible players?

I agree that titles should be stripped, but I say that with no knowledge of how the rules actually work. Might it be that proper legal advice HAS been sought and that there is genuinely nowhere for the authorities to go?

Throughout this whole Rangers fiasco, lots of people have suddenly become experts on everything from tax and company law to TUPE regulations and now onto the rules of football. I struggle to understand enough about my professional field of expertise without really knowing anything about any of this, although I know what I would like to be the case.

(I'm mainly trying to be devil's advocate btw).

If they have received such legal advice then surely they would have no problem publishing it?
I really think we are heading for another cover up here.


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[Smartie]

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I'm of the exact same position Green Day. In theory yeah it sounds great but it goes deeper than making said trophies null and void imo. Teams that lost semi finals, teams that potentially got relegated due to losses again the rangers.

Honestly I don't know the answers and wonder if we would be so persistent if it was Dundee, or a club further down the pyramid.

I used to be of that opinion but I've changed my mind and now think that titles should be stripped.

We are customers, the lifeblood of the game. We need to know for sure that we are watching a fair fight. Do we have confidence that any competition involving Rangers, Sevco, Dave King, Charles Green, Neil Doncaster, Stewart Regan, Campbell Ogilvie and all of the people that were part of the 5 way agreement can put on a fair competition?

I can take Hibs losing, I've sen enough of it over the years. I resent shelling out £400 or so per year to watch a rigged competition. Next year I don't think I'd do it if one establishment club are consistently allowed to piss all over what rules might exist.

Football needs strict rules and strict enforcement so that the Dave Kings, David Murrays and Vladimir Romanovs of this world cannot just do as they choose. Rules must be rules, punishments must be enforced. If you lose you lose and you lick your wounds, but if you win then you know you've done it fairly and can justifiably celebrate.


My concern re the stripping of titles is that it is hard to know where to stop, and you need to consider the spirit of competition. My main 3 concerns about title stripping are

1/ Where do you stop? Half of the league were financial doping in some way. Jambos with their 5-1 this and that, getting on their high horse demanding titles be stripped, just because of a player registration technicality. IMO Hearts' financial transgressions were every bit as bad as Rangers'. Their tainted trophies, their scandalous unfair advantage in more than a decade of derbies yet because of side letters they think they have some moral high ground? How did they ever get away with having players registered with Kaunas and loaned to Hearts? In terms of the spirit of competition, half of Scottish football was bent. Even if titles aren't stripped, the whole episode was shameful for Scottish football and any decent fan (including those of Rangers) will not view any of the competitions won during that period as being valid, even if they remain on the records.

2/ I actually agree that at some point we do need to move on, and soon. It can happen as soon as we have confidence in those running our game. They could help by stripping titles, by sacking some of the figures tainted by corruption, by demonstrating that going forward all clubs INCLUDING RANGERS will play by the same rules, be punished by the same punishments etc etc.

3/ As I said above, there may not actually be a real, legal way for it to be done. Rules are rules - if rules don't exist dictating that titles can be stripped for this misdeed, can they really be stripped?