Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

***Ozyhibby*** · 06-07-2017 07:59 PM

https://stripthetitles.wordpress.com...-to-your-club/

Here is a template letter for anyone wishing to contact Hibs and find out exactly where we stand as a club on this.
Not exactly sure who at Hibs it should be sent to but probably Leeann or Colin Millar. Or just send to [email protected]

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**Is It On....** · 06-07-2017 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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Have to disagree with that.

At the time of the "offences", HMRC's policy was to hold an employer responsible for the faulty operation of its PAYE & NI system. Indeed, that's the approach they took in arriving at the amount due to them by Oldco. They have "grossed-up" net payments made to the recipients for tax and NI, and assessed the employer accordingly.

As mentioned earlier, there is draft legislation proposed to hold recipients responsible for a "loan charge" on any un-repaid EBT payments. It's still not clear how that charge will be calculated, so it's very difficult to say how the likes of Ferguson will be affected. Indeed, reading Deloitte's comments just now, they think it will be difficult to enforce for payments made prior to 2010.

Straw poll of 1 but when my old and new employers messed up my tax in 2003 / 2004 HMRC told me it was MY responsibility to have checked my tax and ensured I paid the correct amount. The accountants I work with think the side letter issue is really damaging because by not declaring the contracts to the governing body it looks like a deliberate attempt to avoid tax, hence tax evasion rather than avoidance. Given all these players were represented by 3rd parties it's difficult to portray that they were duped by Oldco into believing this was "above board". Only opinions but it would appear a bit murky and I certainly wouldn't be sleeping well if I was an EBT beneficiary.

**PatHead** · 06-07-2017 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Is It On....

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Straw poll of 1 but when my old and new employers messed up my tax in 2003 / 2004 HMRC told me it was MY responsibility to have checked my tax and ensured I paid the correct amount. The accountants I work with think the side letter issue is really damaging because by not declaring the contracts to the governing body it looks like a deliberate attempt to avoid tax, hence tax evasion rather than avoidance. Given all these players were represented by 3rd parties it's difficult to portray that they were duped by Oldco into believing this was "above board". Only opinions but it would appear a bit murky and I certainly wouldn't be sleeping well if I was an EBT beneficiary.

Wonder if they will sue their agents.

***Colr*** · 06-07-2017 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by Eyrie

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So if there's not enough money in the Huns RIP pot to satisfy the tax man, can HMRC go after the guys who actually took the money to get the balance of the unpaid tax?

Looks like it:

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...bill-1-4496731

The Ginger Judas is on the list.

***CropleyWasGod*** · 06-07-2017 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by Colr

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Looks like it:

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...bill-1-4496731

The Ginger Judas is on the list.

That report is as speculative as the Record's. It uses words like "could" and "if" and "reports".

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***lapsedhibee*** · 06-07-2017 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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Again, though...and I'm a stuck record here...this case isn't about the money, it's about the tens of millions that can now be hoovered up from other clubs and companies.

Even though her main aim is tens of millions elsewhere, though, Her Maj shirley won't be completely uninterested in collecting the mere millions involved in The Thes case?

**MichaelTheCelt** · 06-07-2017 10:26 PM

Sign and share it, every little helps. Got to make as much noise as possible regarding this.

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-the-titles

***Pedantic_Hibee*** · 06-07-2017 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by MichaelTheCelt

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Sign and share it, every little helps. Got to make as much noise as possible regarding this.

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-the-titles

Signed.

***Mantis Toboggan*** · 06-07-2017 10:58 PM

Although I agree Oldco were cheating *******s I cant get that excited about this.
Stripping titles now doesnt achieve much from our point of view. They got the glory at the time and thats really all that matters.
The best thing might be the leaps of logic that rangers supporters are going to have to try to perform if they try and argue that this doesnt reflect on the current club.

**Ronniekirk** · 06-07-2017 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by MichaelTheCelt

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Sign and share it, every little helps. Got to make as much noise as possible regarding this.

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-the-titles

Signed but don't think it will happen

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**Paisley Hibby** · 06-07-2017 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by Mantis Toboggan

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Although I agree Oldco were cheating *******s I cant get that excited about this.
Stripping titles now doesnt achieve much from our point of view. They got the glory at the time and thats really all that matters.
The best thing might be the leaps of logic that rangers supporters are going to have to try to perform if they try and argue that this doesnt reflect on the current club.

I think stripping titles would REALLY matter to The Rangers fans, as much as keeping 1872 and the treble stars on their shirts does. The SFA/SPFL will not have the balls to address this.

**southern hibby** · 06-07-2017 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by Mantis Toboggan

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Although I agree Oldco were cheating *******s I cant get that excited about this.
Stripping titles now doesnt achieve much from our point of view. They got the glory at the time and thats really all that matters.
The best thing might be the leaps of logic that rangers supporters are going to have to try to perform if they try and argue that this doesnt reflect on the current club.

Stripping the titles etc, will let teams know that cheats will suffer if caught. Think about it if the SFA grow a set and take them off Rangers then other teams including The Rangers will know they would get hammered if caught.
If we sit back and allow this to happen then it will always be an option for any team who think they can get away with it.

GGTTH

**southern hibby** · 06-07-2017 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by Paisley Hibby

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I think stripping titles would REALLY matter to The Rangers fans, as much as keeping 1872 and the treble stars on their shirts does. The SFA/SPFL will not have the balls to address this.

Not sure why but I genuinely believe the SFA have something to hide and don't want to address stripping titles as it may bring their dirty washing out in to the public domain.

GGTTH

***Mantis Toboggan*** · 06-07-2017 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by Paisley Hibby

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I think stripping titles would REALLY matter to The Rangers fans, as much as keeping 1872 and the treble stars on their shirts does. The SFA/SPFL will not have the balls to address this.

Oh I totally agree the authorities are spineless.
Rangers would probably just ignore any ruling anyway. I mean the 5 stars thing is made up by them in the first place!

***MKHIBEE*** · 06-07-2017 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by Is It On....

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Straw poll of 1 but when my old and new employers messed up my tax in 2003 / 2004 HMRC told me it was MY responsibility to have checked my tax and ensured I paid the correct amount. The accountants I work with think the side letter issue is really damaging because by not declaring the contracts to the governing body it looks like a deliberate attempt to avoid tax, hence tax evasion rather than avoidance. Given all these players were represented by 3rd parties it's difficult to portray that they were duped by Oldco into believing this was "above board". Only opinions but it would appear a bit murky and I certainly wouldn't be sleeping well if I was an EBT beneficiary.

Murray has already exonarated everyone he knows by stating that it was not tax evasion.

***MKHIBEE*** · 06-07-2017 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by Is It On....

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Straw poll of 1 but when my old and new employers messed up my tax in 2003 / 2004 HMRC told me it was MY responsibility to have checked my tax and ensured I paid the correct amount. The accountants I work with think the side letter issue is really damaging because by not declaring the contracts to the governing body it looks like a deliberate attempt to avoid tax, hence tax evasion rather than avoidance. Given all these players were represented by 3rd parties it's difficult to portray that they were duped by Oldco into believing this was "above board". Only opinions but it would appear a bit murky and I certainly wouldn't be sleeping well if I was an EBT beneficiary.

Murray has already exonarated everyone he knows by stating that it was not tax evasion.

***Brunswickbill*** · 06-07-2017 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by PatHead

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Wonder if they will sue their agents.

An accountant friend told me that with all of these tax "efficiency" schemes, there is always some small print along the lines that the scheme is considered to be within the law but a final determination can only be made through the courts. Basically saying it's up to the buyer to confirm the legality; if you buy into it you takes your chance and the vendor accepts no liability.

**pacorosssco** · 07-07-2017 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by Brunswickbill

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An accountant friend told me that with all of these tax "efficiency" schemes, there is always some small print along the lines that the scheme is considered to be within the law but a final determination can only be made through the courts. Basically saying it's up to the buyer to confirm the legality; if you buy into it you takes your chance and the vendor accepts no liability.

Yes your sold a tax dodge for a fee yet risk is yours and were told compliance exists.

**monktonharp** · 07-07-2017 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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They had a guy who was struck off as a solicitor in 2007 for conflicts of interest. That was it.

I'm not sure whether they sought a second opinion (people rarely do, but it would make sense to), or to what extent they shopped-around. However, as has been said, they didn't take his advice fully, in that they recorded the arrangements by way of the side-letters. So, in short, they were okay, but they didn't do it the way they were told to.

My instinct in taking this sort of advice is to make sure that the adviser has adequate Indemnity Insurance, so that you can sue the hell out of them if things go wrong.

all very fine, for guys like you and Bigwheel trying to justify or explain the Oldco situation as you see it, or how some bigwig lawyers try to impose it but the Fact remains that 5, yes 5 High Heid yins at the Supreme Court (ye canny get any higher) decided that they were "at it". does not matter if a Solicitor wi' a Snawman's pipe in his mooth suddenly comes along.........

**pacorosssco** · 07-07-2017 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by monktonharp

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all very fine, for guys like you and Bigwheel trying to justify or explain the Oldco situation as you see it, or how some bigwig lawyers try to impose it but the Fact remains that 5, yes 5 High Heid yins at the Supreme Court (ye canny get any higher) decided that they were "at it". does not matter if a Solicitor wi' a Snawman's pipe in his mooth suddenly comes along.........

Yes.Murray and Rangers were supported by old school system it is the reason that they were able to run up debt at that level until bank crisis forced those in charge to point blame elsewhere. Murray a charlatan but those who fall with him protect him.

**pacorosssco** · 07-07-2017 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Mantis Toboggan

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Although I agree Oldco were cheating *******s I cant get that excited about this.
Stripping titles now doesnt achieve much from our point of view. They got the glory at the time and thats really all that matters.
The best thing might be the leaps of logic that rangers supporters are going to have to try to perform if they try and argue that this doesnt reflect on the current club.

If you won by illegal means you cheated. Rangers will hold 9 in a row as theirs no matter what. They are not only ones who have been exposed. Italians etc

**~~Deansy~~** · 07-07-2017 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by southern hibby

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Not sure why but I genuinely believe the SFA have something to hide and don't want to address stripping titles as it may bring their dirty washing out in to the public domain.

GGTTH

With the GFA it's not a case of 'If' they are hiding something - it's a case of 'HOW MUCH' they are hiding ?

It's not too outrageous a thought as previously no-one thought the Hun would be found-out !. Now that's happened, some of the 'Rats' on the good-ship GFA might take the view that if they're the 'First to reveal all' then whatever punishment to follow might be slightly less than all the other rats receive ??, Let's not kid ourselves, there's no 'Camaraderie' to be found amongst the likes of Regan, Doncaster & Co - and right now they're all caught between a rock and a very hard place and the next few days/weeks promise to be very interesting !

**monktonharp** · 07-07-2017 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by OxoHibby

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I have never understood why this hasn't happened. I know contractors in my line of work who were using ebts and are being personally being chased by hmrc and some in danger of losing their houses. Why haven't hmrc gone after the players who benefitted from avoiding tax?

In that comment, you seem to me, to be putting up a smokescreen for the real offenders, the club that used or conned the people who pay our tax and gave those sly deals to players in order to attract them to RFC. don't make excuses for players who know what was going on btw. If they lost their house, their fancy car or their golf clubs I'd laugh ma heid aff.

**monktonharp** · 07-07-2017 12:54 AM

had a closer look at your comments Oxo. apologise for implying that only the club were doing the cheating. the way I see it, the club were indeed using the system to the Max and the football players were , probably in tandem with their Agents quite happy to milk the system at the demise of the normal PAYE system which most hard working people abide by. It should not be ignored, that many of the players employed by Oldco at that time , were using the system and thereby cheating the system and should rightly be persued by HMRC. If , in some cases, it might end up that they might lose their hoose, or possessions then tough sheite. Ye Flee wi' the craws, ye get shot wi' the craws.

***CropleyWasGod*** · 07-07-2017 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

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Even though her main aim is tens of millions elsewhere, though, Her Maj shirley won't be completely uninterested in collecting the mere millions involved in The Thes case?

Fairness would suggest not, of course.

Previous practice suggests they won't go after the players. The spirit of the new approach to tax avoidance suggests otherwise.

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***MrSmith*** · 07-07-2017 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by monktonharp

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had a closer look at your comments Oxo. apologise for implying that only the club were doing the cheating. the way I see it, the club were indeed using the system to the Max and the football players were , probably in tandem with their Agents quite happy to milk the system at the demise of the normal PAYE system which most hard working people abide by. It should not be ignored, that many of the players employed by Oldco at that time , were using the system and thereby cheating the system and should rightly be persued by HMRC. If , in some cases, it might end up that they might lose their hoose, or possessions then tough sheite. Ye Flee wi' the craws, ye get shot wi' the craws.

That is exactly how it is! If the SFA/SPFL tile strip, watch the proverbial mud hit the fan! SDM and associates will map out where the bodies are hidden through the relative safety of their PR and media chums plus all those involved, will be queuing up to stick the next person in.

justice must be served upon all those who rigged our game and brought it into disrepute. Until then, we cannot heal nor move on.

***Ozyhibby*** · 07-07-2017 09:07 AM

Well done Dons fans. Stewards tried unsuccessfully to take the banners from them. Every club should protest this.

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**MichaelTheCelt** · 07-07-2017 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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Well done Dons fans. Stewards tried unsuccessfully to take the banners from them. Every club should protest this.

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Deffo mate, I hope to see a lot more of this from supporters of other clubs.

***ian cruise*** · 07-07-2017 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by southern hibby

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Stripping the titles etc, will let teams know that cheats will suffer if caught. Think about it if the SFA grow a set and take them off Rangers then other teams including The Rangers will know they would get hammered if caught.
If we sit back and allow this to happen then it will always be an option for any team who think they can get away with it.

GGTTH

I don't think it will. Much in the same way Lance Armstrong refuses the acknowledge the stripping of his tour wins the Rangers fans will still claim they won 54 titles, the club probably will too. If they keep insisting they were demoted when that is factually inaccurate what chance do you have of them respecting a retrospective punishment such as titles being stripped. They just continue to share pictures of them with the trophies as proof they won them.