Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[kaimendhibs]

I knew the GFA would sweep it under the carpet. Scottish Football is rotten to the core and changes are long overdue

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Smartie]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

This is the SPFL board. It's down to them now.
Peter Lawwell (Celtic) Ann Budge (Hearts) Ian Maxwell (Partick) Leeann Dempster (Hibs) Eric Drysdale (Raith) Ken Ferguson (Brechin


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Eric Drysdale's an interesting one.

I can't see many people on that board who would take the same attitude as the SFA have (not that I know anything about either Maxwell or Ferguson).

[Hibernia&Alba]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

This is the SPFL board. It's down to them now.
Peter Lawwell (Celtic) Ann Budge (Hearts) Ian Maxwell (Partick) Leeann Dempster (Hibs) Eric Drysdale (Raith) Ken Ferguson (Brechin


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are they scheduled to meet, in light of the Supreme Court ruling?

[Spike Mandela]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

This is the SPFL board. It's down to them now.
Peter Lawwell (Celtic) Ann Budge (Hearts) Ian Maxwell (Partick) Leeann Dempster (Hibs) Eric Drysdale (Raith) Ken Ferguson (Brechin


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Don't forget Neil Doncaster and Ralph Topping a couple of grovelling toads that will do anything to smooth Rangers ascent to prominence and protect them from pesky things like rules.

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Clearly this is going to have huge repercussions way over and above football clubs,many of whom,like Celtic,have already settled.Next target for HMRC will be individuals who claim self employed status while working for only one "employer" and individuals forming companies to shelter their income and avoid tax and nic while really being employee.s

Those have been targets for years.

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Are they scheduled to meet, in light of the Supreme Court ruling?

http://spfl.co.uk/news/article/spfl-statement-74/

"The Board of the SPFL notes today's judgement of the Supreme Court. We will now take time to examine the ‎judgement in detail and to consider any implications for the SPFL."

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I knew the GFA would sweep it under the carpet. Scottish Football is rotten to the core and changes are long overdue

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

It's difficult to see what the SFA could do here. Who would they take action against, and how? That's clearly at the heart of the legal advice they have been given.

The only option I could see would be to strip them of Cup wins, since that is the only competition run by them.

It's more of an SPL/SPFL issue IMO.

[Bishop Hibee]

Regan out!

[lapsedhibee]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

It's difficult to see what the SFA could do here. The only option I could see would be to strip them of Cup wins, since that is the only competition run by them.

So, not that difficult to see after all!

[allezsauzee]

Rather than stripping titles and awarding them to other clubs, wouldn't it easier for the SPFL and SFA to accept that the club who cheated their way to those titles is now dead and that the new club which is 5 years old have won nothing more than the championship, division 1, division 2 and the petrofac cup? They can get rid of one of those stars on their shirts and each of the 4 stars remaining can refer to the illustrious aforementioned titles.

[beensaidbefore]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

SFA say the Huns can get away with it:

Scottish FA statement on Supreme Court ruling
Wednesday, 05 July 2017


The Board of the Scottish FA notes the judgment of the Supreme Court and wishes to clarify the implications of this final legal decision from a football regulatory perspective.

In light of the Inner House of the Court of Session decision, the Board of the Scottish FA sought external senior counsel opinion to ensure a robust and independent consideration of all implications of today’s judgment.

The Board received written advice from Senior Counsel, amplified when the QC attended a full meeting of the Board to discuss his conclusions.

Specifically, Senior Counsel was asked to anticipate whether a determination in favour of HMRC, as announced today, could imply that there had been a breach of the Scottish FA’s Disciplinary Rules as they applied at the time of the EBT payments.

The clear opinion of Senior Counsel is that there is a very limited chance of the Scottish FA succeeding in relation to any complaint regarding this matter and that, even if successful, any sanctions available to a Judicial Panel would also be limited in their scope.

Accordingly, having had time to consider the opinion from Senior Counsel, and having examined the judgment of the UK Supreme Court, the Board has determined that no further disciplinary action should be taken by the Scottish FA at this time.

Joke of a response.

[MileHighBees]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-40501361
http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/40510207

Today's BBC articles note 'between 2001 and 2010'
So, assuming that is the relevant time period for their 'EBT years', here's what they 'won' :-

(season)-(trophy)-(runner-up)

2001/2002 - Scottish Cup - Celtic
2001/2002 - League Cup - Ayr United

2002/2003 - SPL - Celtic
2002/2003 - Scottish Cup - Dundee
2002/2003 - League Cup - Celtic

2003/2004 - nothing

2004/2005 - SPL - Celtic
2004/2005 - League Cup - Motherwell

2005/2006 - nothing

2006/2007 - nothing

2007/2008 - Scottish Cup - Queen of the South
2007/2008 - League Cup - Dundee United

2008/2009 - SPL - Celtic
2008/2009 - Scottish Cup - Falkirk

2009/2010 - SPL - Celtic
2009/2010 - League Cup - St Mirren

2010/2011 - SPL - Celtic
2010/2011 - League Cup - Celtic

[Is It On....]

It would appear from articles published that £47m was paid in EBTs between 2001-2010. OldCo will be liable for the employer National Insurance on this number with a penalty interest rate (I think 5%-7%) per annum for each year of non payment so HMRC will become a preferred creditor. The employee is responsible for making sure they have declared the correct amount of income and paid the correct amount of tax and NI. I have checked this with of couple of accountants today but stand to be corrected. Using Alex Rae as an example, he was paid £569k in 2 seasons and left in 2006. The tax now due is £227k plus a late payment fee of at least 10 years which could amount to another £227k meaning that his total tax liability as a result of todays ruling of £454k. The National Insurance liability and subsequent penalty would be extra!! Barry Ferguson was paid £2.5m under the EBT so his tax liability will almost certainly be in excess of £2m!! I would have said HMRC are almost certain to go after the individuals given the amounts involved and there will be a few very nervous ex-Rangers players tonight.

[Onion]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

SFA say the Huns can get away with it:

Scottish FA statement on Supreme Court ruling
Wednesday, 05 July 2017


The Board of the Scottish FA notes the judgment of the Supreme Court and wishes to clarify the implications of this final legal decision from a football regulatory perspective.

In light of the Inner House of the Court of Session decision, the Board of the Scottish FA sought external senior counsel opinion to ensure a robust and independent consideration of all implications of today’s judgment.

The Board received written advice from Senior Counsel, amplified when the QC attended a full meeting of the Board to discuss his conclusions.

Specifically, Senior Counsel was asked to anticipate whether a determination in favour of HMRC, as announced today, could imply that there had been a breach of the Scottish FA’s Disciplinary Rules as they applied at the time of the EBT payments.

The clear opinion of Senior Counsel is that there is a very limited chance of the Scottish FA succeeding in relation to any complaint regarding this matter and that, even if successful, any sanctions available to a Judicial Panel would also be limited in their scope.

Accordingly, having had time to consider the opinion from Senior Counsel, and having examined the judgment of the UK Supreme Court, the Board has determined that no further disciplinary action should be taken by the Scottish FA at this time.

Then they need the opinion of a different "Senior Council". Had HMRC not taken this all the way up to the Supreme Court, and just accepted the opinion of the lower courts, the Huns would have been exonerated. And, if the SFA/SPFL stripped titles from the Dead Rangers, who is there left to object and defend Dead Rangers ? Sevco have no money and would bankrupt themselves if they took it to court.

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

It would appear from articles published that £47m was paid in EBTs between 2001-2010. OldCo will be liable for the employer National Insurance on this number with a penalty interest rate (I think 5%-7%) per annum for each year of non payment. The employee is responsible for making sure they have declared the correct amount of income and paid the correct amount of tax and NI. I have checked this with of couple of accountants today but stand to be corrected. Using Alex Rae as an example, he was paid £569k in 2 seasons and left in 2006. The tax now due is £227k plus a late payment fee of at least 10 years which could amount to another £227k meaning that his total tax liability as a result of todays ruling of £454k. The National Insurance liability and subsequent penalty would be extra!! Barry Ferguson was paid £2.5m under the EBT so his tax liability will almost certainly be in excess of £2m!! I would have said HMRC are almost certain to go after the individuals given the amounts involved and there will be a few very nervous ex-Rangers players tonight.

Have to disagree with that.

At the time of the "offences", HMRC's policy was to hold an employer responsible for the faulty operation of its PAYE & NI system. Indeed, that's the approach they took in arriving at the amount due to them by Oldco. They have "grossed-up" net payments made to the recipients for tax and NI, and assessed the employer accordingly.

As mentioned earlier, there is draft legislation proposed to hold recipients responsible for a "loan charge" on any un-repaid EBT payments. It's still not clear how that charge will be calculated, so it's very difficult to say how the likes of Ferguson will be affected. Indeed, reading Deloitte's comments just now, they think it will be difficult to enforce for payments made prior to 2010.

[ancient hibee]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Those have been targets for years.

With little success I believe.

[WhileTheChief..]

What punishment should the SFA be handing out? What would make everyone think, aye, good, they've done the right thing at last?

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

With little success I believe.

I'd disagree.

The introduction of IR35, the change in legislation surrounding dividend payments, and better-targeted inquiries into "status", have all been positive from an HMRC point of view.

Also, the negative publicity surrounding "contractors" has led the likes of the BBC to review its own use of such staff.

Against that, though, the slashing in HMRC staff numbers has meant that the enquiries are less-well managed than they should be.

[Joe6-2]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Good on Celtic. I wish we would do the same.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Would be a nice reprisal for all the BS levelled at us after THE cup final

[jacomo]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-40501361
http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/40510207

Today's BBC articles note 'between 2001 and 2010'
So, assuming that is the relevant time period for their 'EBT years', here's what they 'won' :-

(season)-(trophy)-(runner-up)

2001/2002 - Scottish Cup - Celtic
2001/2002 - League Cup - Ayr United

2002/2003 - SPL - Celtic
2002/2003 - Scottish Cup - Dundee
2002/2003 - League Cup - Celtic

2003/2004 - nothing

2004/2005 - SPL - Celtic
2004/2005 - League Cup - Motherwell

2005/2006 - nothing

2006/2007 - nothing

2007/2008 - Scottish Cup - Queen of the South
2007/2008 - League Cup - Dundee United

2008/2009 - SPL - Celtic
2008/2009 - Scottish Cup - Falkirk

2009/2010 - SPL - Celtic
2009/2010 - League Cup - St Mirren

2010/2011 - SPL - Celtic
2010/2011 - League Cup - Celtic

As others have said, just void them. Like the Tour did with Lance Armstrong.

[Pedantic_Hibee]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

As others have said, just void them. Like the Tour did with Lance Armstrong.

Correct.

It's an old club anyway so it doesn't affect any existing football team.

[Hibs Class]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

What punishment should the SFA be handing out? What would make everyone think, aye, good, they've done the right thing at last?

There isn't any need for anything vindictive, given that oldco is long dead. All that is needed is a fair, proportionate reaction, and the only one that meets that criterion is to strip the titles that were won by cheating. The prize money they won, and the resultant income from euro campaigns they cheated their way to, should just be written off. It would be unfair to pursue newco for that money, given they are a different club.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Alex Thomson on Channel 4 news the noo. He's hatred of the Huns goes back a long way

[Crazyhorse]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Alex Thomson on Channel 4 news the noo. He's hatred of the Huns goes back a long way

Indeed he isn't letting it lie. His utter contempt for the Scottish msm goes back a long time too.

[Ronniekirk]

Last nights embarrassment in Europe is maybe evidence of Karma and an indication how far they have fallen as. Club since going down to the Third division and trying to pretend they are back They have a long way to go and don't think there is the appetite in the Hierarchy to inflict further pain or sanctions , even if it was within their power
Their Titles and Cups won during the E B T years are Tainted They may be in denial , but everyone else knows and lets not let them forget it Their arrogance knows no bounds and the way they as a Club Treated us after the Cup Final will also not be forgotten They made a fool of themselves yet again
King is not that well liked and he will now come back under scrutiny from the support
They have reaped what they sowed
Hope we hump them in second game of Season


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

So, not that difficult to see after all!

Yeah, you're right.

People have been talking about stripping of "titles", which I equated with the League.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Kaiser1962]

What is bordering on the ridiculous are the statements (from Murray etc) that somehow todays ruling is flawed. How on earth did these, supposedly intelligent men, think that they were going to receive large amounts of money for services rendered and somehow not have to pay tax on it? Murray said that “the decision runs counter to the legal advice which was consistently provided to Rangers.” . It would appear, Sir David, that the legal advice you recieved was sheite so good luck sueing them.

It was greed pure and simple. Whether it was the individuals receiving payment (and Murray was good to himself here) or the club pursuing success on the field they thought they had found a wee loophole, however nonsensical that might appear, and tried to exploit it to the nth degree. It seems clear now, some would argue it has always been thus, that on field success was intrinsically linked to the avoidance/evasion of tax and todays decision, and the information that became public in the Whyte trial, just confirms this.

Shysters the lot of them.

[lapsedhibee]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Yeah, you're right.

People have been talking about stripping of "titles", which I equated with the League.

I'd let Murray keep his K, but all the rest should be gone by Monday morning.

[Jack Hackett]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'd let Murray keep his K, but all the rest should be gone by Monday morning.

Murray is the biggest shark in the bog. He should be title stripped, publicly flogged, hung, drawn and quartered... just for starters

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

What is bordering on the ridiculous are the statements (from Murray etc) that somehow todays ruling is flawed. How on earth did these, supposedly intelligent men, think that they were going to receive large amounts of money for services rendered and somehow not have to pay tax on it? Murray said that “the decision runs counter to the legal advice which was consistently provided to Rangers.” . It would appear, Sir David, that the legal advice you recieved was sheite so good luck sueing them.

It was greed pure and simple. Whether it was the individuals receiving payment (and Murray was good to himself here) or the club pursuing success on the field they thought they had found a wee loophole, however nonsensical that might appear, and tried to exploit it to the nth degree. It seems clear now, some would argue it has always been thus, that on field success was intrinsically linked to the avoidance/evasion of tax and todays decision, and the information that became public in the Whyte trial, just confirms this.

Shysters the lot of them.

I'm wondering if SDM is positioning himself, in case of potential criminal charges.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk