Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[heretoday]

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But who is liable for each tax bill as a result of the ruling, The Liquidators of the deceased club or the employees who benefitted??

It sounds like it's the players and former employees of the club. Not the club as it is now.

[BroxburnHibee]

Plenty people arguing they didn't cheat on my Facebook/Twitter feeds but I don't really understand the arguments for/against.

[Bishop Hibee]

Quite a list from JJ site but how does he know the figures?

No chance of any titles etc being stripped sadly but Stewart Regan should resign.

[SlickShoes]

Some of the amounts there are staggering for what rangers got in return like £1million paid to Kevin Muscat, surely something else dodgy is going on there?

[hibbycraig]

They be going after the individuals then to claim the money?

[Spike Mandela]

Rod Petrie is Chairman of the SFA board.

We are in a unique position of being able to demand of him just what are the SFA going to do about this confirmed cheating within the Scottish game for so many years or will he be complicit in the whitewash.

[Spike Mandela]

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Quite a list from JJ site but how does he know the figures?

No chance of any titles etc being stripped sadly but Stewart Regan should resign.

A BBC documentary investigation by Mark Daly outlayed these years ago.

[Bostonhibby]

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Rod Petrie is Chairman of the SFA board.

We are in a unique position of being able to demand of him just what are the SFA going to do about this confirmed cheating within the Scottish game for so many years or will he be complicit in the whitewash.

Yep, he is a sporting integrity man our Rod is so depending on the outcome of the case he will surely want sporting integrity to come first, that may well mean removing that which was gained by cheating. Hopefully the other board members will not prevent it

[LeithSqualk]

I know some people are a bit indifferent about the whole title stripping movement. I personally as a tax payer and former season ticket holder think they should be punished and as much of our money returned as possible.

What can we the fans of hibs and other clubs, (some who nearly went out of business trying to keep up with oldco) do to force punishment.

Email the board/sfa? Boycott Scottish cup games? I don't know but whatever it is I will get involved and fully support

[CropleyWasGod]

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It sounds like it's the players and former employees of the club. Not the club as it is now.

No it isn't. It's the company that is in liquidation.

There has been talk of the recipients also being assessed for tax, but that is only hearsay at the moment. That's a separate issue from this case.

Another issue which hasn't yet been raised is the possibility of criminal charges against "somebody". Now that the case has been settled, HMRC's options are clearer. Personally, I think they won't; the case was about establishing a precedent for other similar cases, and criminal action will be less of a priority.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I know some people are a bit indifferent about the whole title stripping movement. I personally as a tax payer and former season ticket holder think they should be punished and as much of our money returned as possible.

What can we the fans of hibs and other clubs, (some who nearly went out of business trying to keep up with oldco) do to force punishment.

Email the board/sfa? Boycott Scottish cup games? I don't know but whatever it is I will get involved and fully support

To strip titles, you would have to accept that they are the same club, no?

As far as financial recompense goes, who would that be from? If it's the old company, we'd get buttons. If it's the new, it would be tied up in the Courts for years; even if "we" won, the company would probably have to fold under the obligations, and we'd get very little again.

[kaimendhibs]

The GFA will do nowt. If this was any other sport the titles would be stripped. Reagan and co must be removed from office.

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[LeithSqualk]

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To strip titles, you would have to accept that they are the same club, no?

As far as financial recompense goes, who would that be from? If it's the old company, we'd get buttons. If it's the new, it would be tied up in the Courts for years; even if "we" won, the company would probably have to fold under the obligations, and we'd get very little again.

Oldco have have millions in the bank in compensation. So start there and go after the players/ directors for the rest.

I meant strip the titles from the old rangers, everyone Bar them know they are a new club.

[JeMeSouviens]

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To strip titles, you would have to accept that they are the same club, no?

As far as financial recompense goes, who would that be from? If it's the old company, we'd get buttons. If it's the new, it would be tied up in the Courts for years; even if "we" won, the company would probably have to fold under the obligations, and we'd get very little again.

Not at all. You just have to realise you aren't stripping titles from today's Rangers. You're stripping them posthumously from the old dead Huns.

[Hibs Class]

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To strip titles, you would have to accept that they are the same club, no?

As far as financial recompense goes, who would that be from? If it's the old company, we'd get buttons. If it's the new, it would be tied up in the Courts for years; even if "we" won, the company would probably have to fold under the obligations, and we'd get very little again.

Don't see why. The club that died won things before it died. History books still show them as having won those things. If they were won through cheating (& imo they were) then they can be stripped. At the very least there can be no doubt that what they won in their cheating years is totally tainted.

[Bostonhibby]

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To strip titles, you would have to accept that they are the same club, no?

As far as financial recompense goes, who would that be from? If it's the old company, we'd get buttons. If it's the new, it would be tied up in the Courts for years; even if "we" won, the company would probably have to fold under the obligations, and we'd get very little again.

It's a good point and you are right as that's how the legal system works but I also think it's fair for the Scottish football authorities to send the cheats a message that they mean business when they talk about sporting integrity.

I do not see any reason why they cannot strike the now defunct Glasgow rangers honours from the records or at least issue a statement acknowledging they weren't fairly won, its a symbolic act but worth doing, especially if they want to be taken seriously going forward. I won't be sitting by the telly waiting for the announcement though. Too many snouts in the trough and too many blind eyes conveniently turned I fear.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Oldco have have millions in the bank in compensation. So start there and go after the players/ directors for the rest.

I meant strip the titles from the old rangers, everyone Bar them know they are a new club.

This latest judgement means that those "millions" are shared amongst an even larger pool of creditors. At last count, IIRC, the expected dividend was around 10p in the £. Adding "our" claim (which, if my insolvency knowledge is correct, probably wouldn't be admitted at this stage), would reduce that even further.

There are no legal grounds for going after the recipients.

[Is It On....]

£1.5m fee for Billy Dodds..

[Billy Whizz]

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This latest judgement means that those "millions" are shared amongst an even larger pool of creditors. At last count, IIRC, the expected dividend was around 10p in the £. Adding "our" claim *(which, if my insolvency knowledge is correct, probably wouldn't be admitted at this stage), would reduce that even further.

There are no legal grounds for going after the recipients.

The players don't have to pay up?

[Is It On....]

If these are loans under the guise of an EBT, do they need / can they be forced to be paid back to OldCo which is the creditor?

[CropleyWasGod]

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It's a good point and you are right as that's how the legal system works but I also think it's fair for the Scottish football authorities to send the cheats a message that they mean business when they talk about sporting integrity.

I do not see any reason why they cannot strike the now defunct Glasgow rangers honours from the records or at least issue a statement acknowledging they weren't fairly won, its a symbolic act but worth doing, especially if they want to be taken seriously going forward. I won't be sitting by the telly waiting for the announcement though. Too many snouts in the trough and too many blind eyes conveniently turned I fear.

That's how I understand it.

Which, in terms of being a football supporter and having some sort of "symbol" to batter the opposing fans with, is fair game.

[BroxburnHibee]

Don't believe for one minute that any titles will be stripped. Or that anyone at the SFA will admit they cheated.

[tamig]

Remove a star or two from their outrageous badge.

[Ozyhibby]

If Petrie were to act as he should and demand the LNS decision be set aside then it's just possible that I may forgive him for relegation.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://scotslawthoughts.files.wordp...28-02-2013.pdf
Here is Lord Nimmo Smith's decision. He makes it clear that rules were not broken as long as the EBTs were legal. They have now been found not to be. Rangers cheated. The titles need to be stripped.
It's up to the other clubs now to act. No more excuses. It's time show that sporting integrity is more than just a catch phrase.


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[CropleyWasGod]

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If these are loans under the guise of an EBT, do they need / can they be forced to be paid back to OldCo which is the creditor?

Not as simple as that. Of course

It wasn't Oldco that made the loans. Oldco made payments to Trusts. It was the Trusts who lent the money to the recipients.

[Ozyhibby]

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Don't believe for one minute that any titles will be stripped. Or that anyone at the SFA will admit they cheated.

It's now possible for the fans to seek a judicial review if the SFA don't act. It will cost a few bob but I think they could raise it in about 2 hours if need be.


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[CropleyWasGod]

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The players don't have to pay up?

Sorry, missed this, Billy. So many threads going on.

The players "may" be subject of separate HMRC action. But that's separate to this case, which is the responsibility of the Oldco.

However, if there is such action, HMRC's hand has been strengthened by today's decision.

[Ozyhibby]

From the Rangerstaxcase blog


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[Is It On....]

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This latest judgement means that those "millions" are shared amongst an even larger pool of creditors. At last count, IIRC, the expected dividend was around 10p in the £. Adding "our" claim (which, if my insolvency knowledge is correct, probably wouldn't be admitted at this stage), would reduce that even further.

There are no legal grounds for going after the recipients.

I thought the ultimate responsibility for paying the correct amount of tax on income was with the individual? I.e. If your employer makes a mistake, then you have to make it good. It happened to me a few years ago when I moved job and I had to pay HMRC and then get it refunded from my employer.