Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[greenginger]

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Have you raised this with someone with a Parliamentary position?

I got to speak with someone from the Upper House.

Lord Foooks or something like that.

Couldn't make out a word he was saying. Sounded pi$hed to me and it was 11.00 in the morning

[GreenLake]

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As much as I ****ing HATE Hearts, I feel they handled their Admin and financial strife with a lot more dignity than Der Hun and we can see that on the park with lack of ability compared to pre Admin. The Rangers just don't seem to have learned their lesson.

A bit like saying Kim Jong Il handled his rule with more dignity than Stalin.

[GreenLake]

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And our Council continues to accommodate them.

Hearts have demolished two council properties behind their asbestos stand and are starting the foundation work for the new stand on the ground , never mind that the ground has not yet been bought by Hearts.

Seems they are still haggling over the price although they've been offered it at a value about 1/10th of what had been agreed with Vlad back in 2008.

Our Council must have so much cash to spare they can give away our assets.

EUFA ought to investigate this as clubs are not supposed to get help via public funding.

[Ozyhibby]

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EUFA ought to investigate this as clubs are not supposed to get help via public funding.

You need evidence and so far there hasn't been any.


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[Deansy]

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The Yam main creditor was the Ukio Bankas, a " connected creditor " whose vote should not have counted in the non-connected creditor CVA vote.

HMRC voted against the CVA and their vote should have consigned the Yams to the same fate as their Weegie cousins.

But, somehow, their administrators, BDO, forgot to have a non-connected creditor vote.

And BDO are the administrators accusing Duff and Phelps of dodgy dealing.

I know SFA about business-law but -

1) Even if BDO genuinely 'forgot', isn't there a law/procedure covering these events ?. I'd have thought that all/any of the other creditors who stood to lose of money would've known about how these things are dealt with and would've highlighted BDO's 'error' at the time ?

2) Isn't there a governing-body who monitors these events and makes sure all the i's are dotted and t's crossed ?


I did have a 3rd question but it was going to be 'Why wasn't this highlighted in the media' - but then I remembered this is Scotland.

[greenginger]

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I know SFA about business-law but -

1) Even if BDO genuinely 'forgot', isn't there a law/procedure covering these events ?. I'd have thought that all/any of the other creditors who stood to lose of money would've known about how these things are dealt with and would've highlighted BDO's 'error' at the time ?

2) Isn't there a governing-body who monitors these events and makes sure all the i's are dotted and t's crossed ?


I did have a 3rd question but it was going to be 'Why wasn't this highlighted in the media' - but then I remembered this is Scotland.

I was joking when I suggested the administrator forgot. BDO were appointed by the court and had the court's support . BDO's man was Bryan Jackson and I think his reputation of being " savior of football clubs " got the better of him so he pulled a fast one.
HMRC who voted against the CVA could have gone to court to challenge the actions of BDO and Jackson , but there was nothing in for the taxman or any other creditor. Ukio Bankas as secured creditor was always going to take the whole creditor pot, so the taxman's costs in starting a court action was just chucking away taxpayer's money.
I got that view from someone quite high up in HMRC , he also said the adminstrator's actions had been fully noted and, in the future when the working of the insolvency industry is under review, don't be surprised if this case is quoted as one of the reasons why the taxman thinks there is too much power given to companies like BDO and other checks and balances are needed.
Of course Bryan Jackson no longer works for BDO, he now works for Heart's auditors.

[GreenLake]

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You need evidence and so far there hasn't been any.


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You investigate to discover evidence.

[southern hibby]

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Plus a special mention for Heriot Watt's generosity with someone elses money, had they not been so amenable as to neither pursue unpaid rent (which eventually was allowed to reach £145,655) or kick them out for non payment who knows what might have been discovered earlier?

Almost as accommodating as your city council over business rates. Makes you wonder.

Was informed by a passenger in I picked up from Heriot Watt who is an employee there, that actually it worked out for them better in the long run Hearts owing them money, as they applied for a grant towards building Oriam ( if that's what it's called) and because of their help in the community gesture it helped secure the win for them rather than it going to another application.
According to this person the Grant was for Millions. Not sure if true or not, just passing on what I was informed.

GGTTH

[WhileTheChief..]

None of this stuff was done by the present board at Rangers or Hearts. Why should Budge or King pay for the crap that was left behind by Romanov etc?

When you are blaming Hearts for stiffing the council etc. who are you actually blaming? As far as i can see it was Romanov and his crew., nothing to do with Budge, Levein or anyone else there now?

[GreenLake]

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I was joking when I suggested the administrator forgot. BDO were appointed by the court and had the court's support . BDO's man was Bryan Jackson and I think his reputation of being " savior of football clubs " got the better of him so he pulled a fast one.
HMRC who voted against the CVA could have gone to court to challenge the actions of BDO and Jackson , but there was nothing in for the taxman or any other creditor. Ukio Bankas as secured creditor was always going to take the whole creditor pot, so the taxman's costs in starting a court action was just chucking away taxpayer's money.
I got that view from someone quite high up in HMRC , he also said the adminstrator's actions had been fully noted and, in the future when the working of the insolvency industry is under review, don't be surprised if this case is quoted as one of the reasons why the taxman thinks there is too much power given to companies like BDO and other checks and balances are needed.
Of course Bryan Jackson no longer works for BDO, he now works for Heart's auditors.

It might be a bit of Karma if he has his pension invested with the next Lehman Brothers and you are put in charge of their administration.

[Eyrie]

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None of this stuff was done by the present board at Rangers or Hearts. Why should Budge or King pay for the crap that was left behind by Romanov etc?

When you are blaming Hearts for stiffing the council etc. who are you actually blaming? As far as i can see it was Romanov and his crew., nothing to do with Budge, Levein or anyone else there now?

That depends on whether you think it's the same club or not.

Sevco are a new club, which puts them in the clear.

Hearts are still the same club, which makes it fair game to point out that they used the money they stole to buy players they couldn't afford to win trophies which they are still entitled to claim. They can't have the trophies without the shame of the debt however.

[Bostonhibby]

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That depends on whether you think it's the same club or not.

Sevco are a new club, which puts them in the clear.

Hearts are still the same club, which makes it fair game to point out that they used the money they stole to buy players they couldn't afford to win trophies which they are still entitled to claim. They can't have the trophies without the shame of the debt however.

Dave King was involved with the now defunct Glasgow Rangers pre liquidation (?) some would say he's just trying to get some money back this time around.

You are spot on about the unliquidated, and therefore still the original Hearts, they'd like it both ways, there's different bums on the deck chairs but its the same ship. Well old steamer anyway.

[Eyrie]

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You are spot on about the unliquidated, and therefore still the original Hearts, they'd like it both ways, there's different bums on the deck chairs but its the same ship. Well old steamer anyway.

Some excellent references to their support in there, and a little dig at Budge at the end

[Bostonhibby]

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Some excellent references to their support in there, and a little dig at Budge at the end

These things don't just happen, you have to work at it

[Deansy]

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None of this stuff was done by the present board at Rangers or Hearts. Why should Budge or King pay for the crap that was left behind by Romanov etc?

When you are blaming Hearts for stiffing the council etc. who are you actually blaming? As far as i can see it was Romanov and his crew., nothing to do with Budge, Levein or anyone else there now?

Hearts as a club, started to run up debt when Mercer took them over and Robinson and Romanov carried it on and increased it - different owners/boards but same intent . Time will tell re Budge but signing an entire new football team in January (Which Levein admitted 'is a bit of a gamble') just 2 years after administration, still stinks of their 'Big team' fantasy !

[Kaiser1962]

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As much as I ****ing HATE Hearts, I feel they handled their Admin and financial strife with a lot more dignity than Der Hun and we can see that on the park with lack of ability compared to pre Admin. The Rangers just don't seem to have learned their lesson.

There was zero credibility or dignity to the way Hearts handled their insolvency event. What they did do very well was abdicate any responsibilty for acrued debts, whilst pretending to be a victim in the whole scenario ably abetted by Bryan Jackson and the non connected creditor decision. Lots of people were out of pocket by the behaviour of HoMFC. The timing couldnt have been engineered better with all eyes on their big brothers in Govan. But dignity? Sorry.......

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Dave King was involved with the now defunct Glasgow Rangers pre liquidation (?) some would say he's just trying to get some money back this time around.

You are spot on about the unliquidated, and therefore still the original Hearts, they'd like it both ways, there's different bums on the deck chairs but its the same ship. Well old steamer anyway.

"original" Hearts were wound up in 1905 although they are still regarded as the version that rose from those embers but there are those that believe that Rangers are still the same version pre 2012 so not sure what difference being liquidated makes in the long run

Hearts were also the first Scottish club to be suspended from all competitions in October 1884 for making "underhand payments" to players.

It's in their genes.....

[Hibernia&Alba]

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There was zero credibility or dignity to the way Hearts handled their insolvency event. What they did do very well was abdicate any responsibilty for acrued debts, whilst pretending to be a victim in the whole scenario ably abetted by Bryan Jackson and the non connected creditor decision. Lots of people were out of pocket by the behaviour of HoMFC. The timing couldnt have been engineered better with all eyes on their big brothers in Govan. But dignity? Sorry...

Hear hear. Nae shame nor remorse at all. Just pretend the cheating never happened.

[greenginger]

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Hearts as a club, started to run up debt when Mercer took them over and Robinson and Romanov carried it on and increased it - different owners/boards but same intent . Time will tell re Budge but signing an entire new football team in January (Which Levein admitted 'is a bit of a gamble') just 2 years after administration, still stinks of their 'Big team' fantasy !

Don't forget the new stand and now a new pitch to be paid for too.

[brog]

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Was informed by a passenger in I picked up from Heriot Watt who is an employee there, that actually it worked out for them better in the long run Hearts owing them money, as they applied for a grant towards building Oriam ( if that's what it's called) and because of their help in the community gesture it helped secure the win for them rather than it going to another application.
According to this person the Grant was for Millions. Not sure if true or not, just passing on what I was informed.

GGTTH

Not quite sure how Yams stiffing HW Uni would help HW's bid to host Oriam. You would have thought that the lack of financial governance displayed by HWU over the Yams debt would have damaged their cause. IIRC the other bidders were Stirling & Dundee & I don't think grants were involved. Rather the Scottish Government partially funded the development in conjunction with the City of Edinburgh & HWU. Total cost was I think about £35m, original budget was £25m.

[Bostonhibby]

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There was zero credibility or dignity to the way Hearts handled their insolvency event. What they did do very well was abdicate any responsibilty for acrued debts, whilst pretending to be a victim in the whole scenario ably abetted by Bryan Jackson and the non connected creditor decision. Lots of people were out of pocket by the behaviour of HoMFC. The timing couldnt have been engineered better with all eyes on their big brothers in Govan. But dignity? Sorry.......




"original" Hearts were wound up in 1905 although they are still regarded as the version that rose from those embers but there are those that believe that Rangers are still the same version pre 2012 so not sure what difference being liquidated makes in the long run

Agreed re the huns. They allowed that entity to go into liquidation(they did do walking away!). Uniquely they seem to flit between the two states depending on what's expedient at the time. I guess if the SPFL weren't so keen to accommodate them we'd be able to call them the new team and that would be it.

The liquidation happened, we know why, so like any other business that goes down that path I am happy to regard them as gone.

It's a bit like the monty python dead parrot sketch with Johnny Hun playing the Michael Palin role.

[gordonced18]

Big Eck McLeish doing the Yosser Hughes impression on Sunday was an embarrassment.....Has the ginger prick forgotten he was deemed not good enough back when they were almost as deluded as they are now......Can you imagine the interview?

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[JackLadd]

That 1.7m EBT must be concentrating his mind to be fair to McLeish. Decision gets upheld and he might get away with a £2.5m settlement once the penalties are added, or the jail if he prefers that.

[lapsedhibee]

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That 1.7m EBT must be concentrating his mind to be fair to McLeish. Decision gets upheld and he might get away with a £2.5m settlement once the penalties are added, or the jail if he prefers that.

Would penalties be added where there's no evidence that employees acted in bad faith? I think it was the employers that were up to no good, and that the likes of Yosser McLeish would, if he eventually has to repay, be charged interest only.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Would penalties be added where there's no evidence that employees acted in bad faith? I think it was the employers that were up to no good, and that the likes of Yosser McLeish would, if he eventually has to repay, be charged interest only.

Things are changing in the HMRC penalty sphere.

Up until recently, the employer bore the brunt of any dodgy tax scheme. The employee escaped punishment. However, they have recently started to instigate proceedings against employees or beneficiaries of such schemes.

The regime is very new, so there are bound to be appeals against any assessments....until Court case law is established, it's difficult to know how things might go. My own view is that it's unfair to tax both the payer and payee... IMHO double the tax would be collected that way. That will.be the position of the recipients, I'm sure...but how that plays with the Courts remains to.be seen.

If McLeish is held to be liable, he'll be due tax and NI at the top rates in force when he received the payments. He'll also be due interest..which is set down in statute...and penalties...which will be negotiable. I'd doubt that jail time will be a consideration.

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[southern hibby]

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Not quite sure how Yams stiffing HW Uni would help HW's bid to host Oriam. You would have thought that the lack of financial governance displayed by HWU over the Yams debt would have damaged their cause. IIRC the other bidders were Stirling & Dundee & I don't think grants were involved. Rather the Scottish Government partially funded the development in conjunction with the City of Edinburgh & HWU. Total cost was I think about £35m, original budget was £25m.

Exactly what I thought, but only passing on what I was informed.

GGtTH

[Geo_1875]

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There was zero credibility or dignity to the way Hearts handled their insolvency event. What they did do very well was abdicate any responsibilty for acrued debts, whilst pretending to be a victim in the whole scenario ably abetted by Bryan Jackson and the non connected creditor decision. Lots of people were out of pocket by the behaviour of HoMFC. The timing couldnt have been engineered better with all eyes on their big brothers in Govan. But dignity? Sorry.......




"original" Hearts were wound up in 1905 although they are still regarded as the version that rose from those embers but there are those that believe that Rangers are still the same version pre 2012 so not sure what difference being liquidated makes in the long run

Hearts were also the first Scottish club to be suspended from all competitions in October 1884 for making "underhand payments" to players.

It's in their genes.....

The worst part was delaying announcing insolvency until after their last game to avoid penalties which would have seen them relegated instead of Dundee. Everybody knew they were in trouble for months before that but authorities turned a blind eye to the lying and cheating.

[Bostonhibby]

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Was informed by a passenger in I picked up from Heriot Watt who is an employee there, that actually it worked out for them better in the long run Hearts owing them money, as they applied for a grant towards building Oriam ( if that's what it's called) and because of their help in the community gesture it helped secure the win for them rather than it going to another application.
According to this person the Grant was for Millions. Not sure if true or not, just passing on what I was informed.

GGTTH

Thanks for sharing, suspect your passenger was either Bryan Jackson or the finance director of HWU

It's a bit like the yam saying what happened to the smaller creditors did them a favour as they'd only have wasted the money on food and paying their way anyway, or lord George saying that it was alright because the Lithuanian government had a pension protection scheme.

[lapsedhibee]

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Things are changing in the HMRC penalty sphere.

Up until recently, the employer bore the brunt of any dodgy tax scheme. The employee escaped punishment. However, they have recently started to instigate proceedings against employees or beneficiaries of such schemes.

The regime is very new, so there are bound to be appeals against any assessments....until Court case law is established, it's difficult to know how things might go. My own view is that it's unfair to tax both the payer and payee... IMHO double the tax would be collected that way. That will.be the position of the recipients, I'm sure...but how that plays with the Courts remains to.be seen.

If McLeish is held to be liable, he'll be due tax and NI at the top rates in force when he received the payments. He'll also be due interest..which is set down in statute...and penalties...which will be negotiable. I'd doubt that jail time will be a consideration.

Ta. Wouldn't sit right with me if after paying what's due in tax, NI and interest, the little people at the bottom of the chain also get hit with penalties. (Even though the little people in this instance are ridiculously overpaid huns.)

[calumhibee1]

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The worst part was delaying announcing insolvency until after their last game to avoid penalties which would have seen them relegated instead of Dundee. Everybody knew they were in trouble for months before that but authorities turned a blind eye to the lying and cheating.

A lie which cost me a couple grand. I had a bet on them being relegated that I put on purely incase they had points deducted!

[greenginger]

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A lie which cost me a couple grand. I had a bet on them being relegated that I put on purely incase they had points deducted!

At first I thought you were going to say you had joined their creditor's role of shame.

Taken in by the spin of Self-sufficient Southern and All is Barry@EEN.