Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[hibs0666]

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Simple

No sectarianism

No safe house for sectarianism

No visits from the violent filthy away support

More trophies going to other parts of Scotland

The last 3 years have been a pleasant armageddon

Docking titles will not fix sectarianism or a filthy away support - dialogue and deeds will.

Dunno what you've enjoyed most about the last three years - huns getting shafted? the Malmo tie? the relegation? national team ongoing failures?

[JimBHibees]

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So the huns lose titles. How does that stop Hibs from getting slaughtered by Malmo? How does that help us to qualify for the next World Cup? How does that help us increase TV income so that we get the best players we possibly can into the Scottish game?

It is a sideshow and, as we can see from this site, attracts way more interest and input than its importance merits.

Some attempt at cleansing the game of the waft of cheating thereby hopefully allowing the game a fresh start to be taken which will allow the game to improve and achieve some of the things you listed.

[hibs0666]

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Some attempt at cleansing the game of the waft of cheating thereby hopefully allowing the game a fresh start to be taken which will allow the game to improve and achieve some of the things you listed.

Removing the waft of cheating will not make us play better in Europe or make us qualify for the world cup. Seriously, we need to collectively start addressing those issues with the same energy and vigour as we pursue company tax laws.

[AndyM_1875]

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I'd rather not for now. Hopefully when the SFA cave, they launch an investigation in the tax affairs of all clubs in attempt to not make it about Rangers.


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That would include Hearts shameful behavior where the tax man was done out of 1.75m due to the Lithuanian player registration shenanigans. On top of this you have a number of Celtic players and officials reducing their tax bills through avoidance mechanisms where "investments" in film companies worked for them etc. Neil Lennon is one mentioned in the article below but he is one of several figures from Celtic involved including it seems Peter Lawell and Chris Sutton.

http://news.stv.tv/west-central/3082...idance-scheme/

http://www.theguardian.com/football/...x-demands-hmrc

[Ozyhibby]

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So the huns lose titles. How does that stop Hibs from getting slaughtered by Malmo? How does that help us to qualify for the next World Cup? How does that help us increase TV income so that we get the best players we possibly can into the Scottish game?

It is a sideshow and, as we can see from this site, attracts way more interest and input than its importance merits.

It doesn't help any of those things. It's completely separate. We have separate threads on those subjects. Lots of them.
Your wishing this would all just go away. It's too late for that no matter how much you wish it.


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[Ozyhibby]

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That would include Hearts shameful behavior where the tax man was done out of 1.75m due to the Lithuanian player registration shenanigans. On top of this you have a number of Celtic players and officials reducing their tax bills through avoidance mechanisms where "investments" in film companies worked for them etc. Neil Lennon is one mentioned in the article below but he is one of several figures from Celtic involved including it seems Peter Lawell and Chris Sutton.

http://news.stv.tv/west-central/3082...idance-scheme/

http://www.theguardian.com/football/...x-demands-hmrc

Those schemes are down to the individuals concerned. They will be responsible. Celtic and the other clubs involved paid the tax.


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[Ozyhibby]

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Removing the waft of cheating will not make us play better in Europe or make us qualify for the world cup. Seriously, we need to collectively start addressing those issues with the same energy and vigour as we pursue company tax laws.

If we don't remove the cheating then I don't much care about how successful we are. The game needs to be clean first and foremost.


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[JeMeSouviens]

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Docking titles will not fix sectarianism or a filthy away support - dialogue and deeds will.

Dunno what you've enjoyed most about the last three years - huns getting shafted? the Malmo tie? the relegation? national team ongoing failures?

And how will turning a blind eye to cheating and sweeping any wrongdoing under the carpet help any of that? Make even more fans drift away from a corrupt game? How does that help?

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

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That would include Hearts shameful behavior where the tax man was done out of 1.75m due to the Lithuanian player registration shenanigans. On top of this you have a number of Celtic players and officials reducing their tax bills through avoidance mechanisms where "investments" in film companies worked for them etc. Neil Lennon is one mentioned in the article below but he is one of several figures from Celtic involved including it seems Peter Lawell and Chris Sutton.

http://news.stv.tv/west-central/3082...idance-scheme/

http://www.theguardian.com/football/...x-demands-hmrc

How come the media sweep this under the carpet all the time when it comes to the yams? just how do they get away with it? If they cheated the Taxman surely they must pursue it (apologies if I've missed any answer previously)

[AndyM_1875]

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Those schemes are down to the individuals concerned. They will be responsible. Celtic and the other clubs involved paid the tax.


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Hang on...
Representatives on the SFA or SPFL board whom themselves as individuals have engaged in tax avoidance are then expected to get carte blanche to hammer a club who engaged in Tax Avoidance....

Well that will work out well.

[Dashing Bob S]

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Docking titles will not fix sectarianism or a filthy away support - dialogue and deeds will.

Dunno what you've enjoyed most about the last three years - huns getting shafted? the Malmo tie? the relegation? national team ongoing failures?

Of course not - but it will help. Sectarianism has thrived because the Huns (and Celtic) have come to feel they could get away with anything, and are untouchable. If the titles were stripped it would go some way at least to undermining that sense of arrogance that allows that behaviour to thrive.

[Onion]

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And how will turning a blind eye to cheating and sweeping any wrongdoing under the carpet help any of that? Make even more fans drift away from a corrupt game? How does that help?

Corruption, doping and cheating can never be condoned in sport. Plain and simple. Anyone with any influence or power in the game, who sits back and reluctantly accepts it needs to be challenged and removed. There are plenty of capable, honest folk who'll take their place.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Hang on...
Representatives on the SFA or SPFL board whom themselves as individuals have engaged in tax avoidance are then expected to get carte blanche to hammer a club who engaged in Tax Avoidance....

Well that will work out well.

If they have engaged in tax avoidance, and HMRC have been sent away with their tail between their legs, then so be it.

However, a can of worms is now being opened up with such phrases as "innocent until proven guilty", "grey area", "legal vs moral" and "Gary freaking Barlow".

My own take on it is that, whilst Celtic have their alleged current issues, any reps from them (or Hearts/Livi/Dundee/Airdrie) shouldn't be involved in any judgement.

[Ozyhibby]

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Hang on...
Representatives on the SFA or SPFL board whom themselves as individuals have engaged in tax avoidance are then expected to get carte blanche to hammer a club who engaged in Tax Avoidance....

Well that will work out well.

If it was left to the individuals at the SFA then, your right, nothing would be done. Luckily we are in different times now where people have far more access to different sources of information and easier means of organising themselves to push for change.
That has happened now are we are not going back to the old way.


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[AndyM_1875]

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If they have engaged in tax avoidance, and HMRC have been sent away with their tail between their legs, then so be it.

However, a can of worms is now being opened up with such phrases as "innocent until proven guilty", "grey area", "legal vs moral" and "Gary freaking Barlow".

My own take on it is that, whilst Celtic have their alleged current issues, any reps from them (or Hearts/Livi/Dundee/Airdrie) shouldn't be involved in any judgement.

Aberdeen too. Stewart Milne was involved in the Tax Avoidance film wheeze.

[JeMeSouviens]

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How come the media sweep this under the carpet all the time when it comes to the yams? just how do they get away with it? If they cheated the Taxman surely they must pursue it (apologies if I've missed any answer previously)

Simple - they couldn't GAF. The Scottish Football "authorities" don't want any mention of cheating heard in public as they want the New Huns ushered into the top flight asap so they have OF derbies to sell. The media is almost entirely complicit in this. The only thing that's kept them from doing this is grassroots fan pressure. If ordinary fans hadn't made it clear they wouldn't accept it, the New Huns would've started life in the SPL, no questions asked. However, it took a united effort from fans of every other club to achieve this.

When it comes to Hearts, the registration jiggery pokery is beneath the radar of everybody except us. Everyone thinks they overspent and were rightly punished and the resultant relegation was more or less proportionate. Only Hibbys want it taken any further and we can be dismissed as small-time bitter rivals.

Our only hope on this, as Ozy has pointed out, is the Huns getting hammered and then coming looking for anyone else they think they have a chance of lashing out at.

[Steve20]

Let's also remove titles/cups from teams that bought players they couldn't afford. Hardly anyone would have anything left.

They got sent to the Third Division since everyone was going to take their dummy and not attend matches if they didn't. Now, people are going to get upset if titles and cups aren't stripped. I would seriously doubt as many people would be like this if it was another club, including Celtic.

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

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Simple - they couldn't GAF. The Scottish Football "authorities" don't want any mention of cheating heard in public as they want the New Huns ushered into the top flight asap so they have OF derbies to sell. The media is almost entirely complicit in this. The only thing that's kept them from doing this is grassroots fan pressure. If ordinary fans hadn't made it clear they wouldn't accept it, the New Huns would've started life in the SPL, no questions asked. However, it took a united effort from fans of every other club to achieve this.

When it comes to Hearts, the registration jiggery pokery is beneath the radar of everybody except us. Everyone thinks they overspent and were rightly punished and the resultant relegation was more or less proportionate. Only Hibbys want it taken any further and we can be dismissed as small-time bitter rivals.

Our only hope on this, as Ozy has pointed out, is the Huns getting hammered and then coming looking for anyone else they think they have a chance of lashing out at.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Aberdeen too. Stewart Milne was involved in the Tax Avoidance film wheeze.

Thankfully, the rug has already been pulled from under him (well, more over him).

_861306_stewartmilnetwo150.jpg

[Ozyhibby]

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Let's also remove titles/cups from teams that bought players they couldn't afford. Hardly anyone would have anything left.

They got sent to the Third Division since everyone was going to take their dummy and not attend matches if they didn't. Now, people are going to get upset if titles and cups aren't stripped. I would seriously doubt as many people would be like this if it was another club, including Celtic.

Nobody is suggesting taking titles away from clubs who overspent?


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[RoxburghHibs]

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They got sent to the Third Division since everyone was going to take their dummy and not attend matches if they didn't. .

Utter nonsense! They were a BRAND NEW CLUB and had to apply to be permitted into the leagues. Why should a new club enter into the top flight and not start of in the lowest league? When Elgin City, Ross County and Inverness CT joined the football league they all had to start in the lowest level and work their way up.

[MrSmith]

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Let's also remove titles/cups from teams that bought players they couldn't afford. Hardly anyone would have anything left.They got sent to the Third Division since everyone was going to take their dummy and not attend matches if they didn't. Now, people are going to get upset if titles and cups aren't stripped. I would seriously doubt as many people would be like this if it was another club, including Celtic.

At first I didn't care about the titles but the more information becoming available has heightened the level of cheating significantly! This really needs sorted and losing the titles will be small compared to the fact they should be kicked out of football permanently! Rangers or whatever, have seriously brought the game in disrepute and made us all a complete laughing stock! Heads must roll and the line drawn for future participation. If this includes the jambos and it should, then so be it as every club must be held accountable for their participation in a sport where sporting integrity must be held paramount to ensure fair competition.

[Ozyhibby]

Change of dates for Ashley v SFA

New calendar

Charles Green v RIFC – 11/12 November @ Court of Session – re legal costs
HMA v Whyte, Withey, Grier, Whitehouse, Clark, Green, (maybe Ahmad?) – 7-11 December @ High Court – further preliminary hearings
Sports Direct v Dave King – 9 December @ Chancery Court, London – Contempt of court re disclosure of contract details.
MASH Holdings v SFA – 4 February 2016 @ Court of Session – Request for judicial review of the SFA’s FPP decision on Dave King.


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[Spike Mandela]

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Let's also remove titles/cups from teams that bought players they couldn't afford. Hardly anyone would have anything left.

They got sent to the Third Division since everyone was going to take their dummy and not attend matches if they didn't. Now, people are going to get upset if titles and cups aren't stripped. I would seriously doubt as many people would be like this if it was another club, including Celtic.

Maybe just get them to pay the tax they are due then like all other clubs had to, you try not paying your tax.

.......and they weren't SENT anywhere, Jeez, we should be getting that bit right after about 1.5 million views

[portycabbage]

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Okay, I get you. So many memberships, so many shares, so many Rangers.

The SPL stuff I can follow, and understand the process. The SFA stuff, though, is a dark place.... which would be so much lighter if the 5 Way Agreement was allowed out into the public domain.

Even with the SPL stuff, I'm confused! You said that sevco/TRFC owns a member of the SPFL, but later said that the SPFL has shares rather than membership. But the statements at the time were in terms of the company (sevco) applying for membership of the league, rather than shares in it. If the shares or membership were simply assets, then they clearly weren't transferred/sold between oldco/newco, or there wouldn't have been a vote to decide whether sevco's application would be granted. IIRC this is because they revert to the league body when the member leaves (by going out of business or getting relegated). So if "the club" are the same entity as it was pre-admin, then it didn't have an SPL share (as it's owner olcdo had that) OR SPL membership (as its new owner sevco/TRFC had to apply for it).

You say there are many Rangers, but only one continuing club, which is the "goodwill", badge, history and so on. My issue with that continues to be how do we make sense of statements like "the club is in admin", "the club employs people", "the club is a league member"? The history isn't an employer and the badge isn't a league member!

I don't think a definition of "club" can coherently exclude the company side of things, unless we assume that people really mean two completely different things by "Rangers" when we talk about eg "who pays the players" (TRFC) versus "who the players play for" ("the club"). I haven't seen anything to suggest that this kind of "doublethink" existed pre-admin, or to suggest that the assets/goodwill/etc could actually be "the club" itself (given that we are used to saying that clubs have board members, sign players, issue accounts, have financial problems and so on).

[jacomo]

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Let's also remove titles/cups from teams that bought players they couldn't afford. Hardly anyone would have anything left.

They got sent to the Third Division since everyone was going to take their dummy and not attend matches if they didn't. Now, people are going to get upset if titles and cups aren't stripped. I would seriously doubt as many people would be like this if it was another club, including Celtic.

Let's be clear.

They did not get sent anywhere. They went bust, and ceased to be a football club.

Sevco, new owners of the Rangers, were then allowed back into the League to start again. Logically, they had to start at the bottom.

There is precedence for this, in Scotland, England and across Europe. Hereford, Fiorentina just 2 examples that come to mind.

Separately, they've been found guilty of not registering players properly - not once or twice, but systematically over a decade.

The accepted punishment for failing to register a player properly is to be thrown out of a competition - or, if historic, to have those results expunged.

Again, there is precedent for this.

[portycabbage]

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Let's also remove titles/cups from teams that bought players they couldn't afford. Hardly anyone would have anything left.

They didn't just buy players they couldn't afford - they got liquidated as a result, rather than having to make savings and cut costs like we did for example. And title stripping is being talked about because rules on declaring player contracts were broken, which clubs have been punished for previously.

[southsider]

Well said Jaco I 100% agree. All titles & cups they "won" using EBT's stripped and made void. This story has legs and may end up back in court. Speaking of courts Dodgy Dave has picked a fight with Big Mike. Now we are not talking about the 3 bear puppets or the saps in Sons of Struth. This is a real self-made billionaire and this guy don't dance.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Even with the SPL stuff, I'm confused! You said that sevco/TRFC owns a member of the SPFL, but later said that the SPFL has shares rather than membership. But the statements at the time were in terms of the company (sevco) applying for membership of the league, rather than shares in it. If the shares or membership were simply assets, then they clearly weren't transferred/sold between oldco/newco, or there wouldn't have been a vote to decide whether sevco's application would be granted. IIRC this is because they revert to the league body when the member leaves (by going out of business or getting relegated). So if "the club" are the same entity as it was pre-admin, then it didn't have an SPL share (as it's owner olcdo had that) OR SPL membership (as its new owner sevco/TRFC had to apply for it).

You say there are many Rangers, but only one continuing club, which is the "goodwill", badge, history and so on. My issue with that continues to be how do we make sense of statements like "the club is in admin", "the club employs people", "the club is a league member"? The history isn't an employer and the badge isn't a league member!

I don't think a definition of "club" can coherently exclude the company side of things, unless we assume that people really mean two completely different things by "Rangers" when we talk about eg "who pays the players" (TRFC) versus "who the players play for" ("the club"). I haven't seen anything to suggest that this kind of "doublethink" existed pre-admin, or to suggest that the assets/goodwill/etc could actually be "the club" itself (given that we are used to saying that clubs have board members, sign players, issue accounts, have financial problems and so on).

It's almost as if the distinction between "club" and "company" was invented and magically retrofitted to the rules to attempt to justify shoehorning the New Huns in as a direct continuing replacement Rangers.

In reality, pre-2012 the terms were synonymous.

Rangers FC was founded in 1873 (or possibly 1872), incorporated as a limited company in 1899 (SC004276), changed its name in July 2012 to RFC 2012 plc and is currently in liquidation.

Sevco Scotland (SC425159) was incorporated in May 2012 and changed its name to The Rangers Football Club Limited in July 2012 following its purchase of the business and assets of Rangers FC.

Rangers International Football Club plc (SC437060) was incorporated in November 2012 as a holding company for TRFC Ltd.


Rangers and the SFA would have you believe that some magic unincorporation happened to suck the ethereal rancid spirit of the Old Huns out of the company and deposit it alive and well into the new one. Whether you choose to believe that or not, up to you.

[southsider]

I heard that idiot Stuart McCall on Monday night's Sportsound say if EBT's were legal why not use them. Well Stuart it is ok for the Postie or the girl in the bank or the bloke in the call centre to pay tax and n/I on their wages of £250 a week in order to keep the schools open, to pay for our NHS, to pay benefits so people don't stave or freeze to death but for the superstars of rangers f.c (IL) it is ok to pay zitch ? The armed forces one is the biggest brass neck ever as they profess an undying love for the troops whilst robbing them of much needed income. These people may have caused death injury to these brave men and women by the theft of funding. Make every player pay back to HMRC what they defrauded them (and us off.