Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[HFC 0-7]

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I think the point re the eligibility of players who received EBT payments is a strong one and does imply IMHO that all games in which they were involved should be retrospectively marked as a 3-0 defeat. I don't think cups won during this period by RFC should be awarded to other teams though - they would just have to be marked as having no winner. It's impossible to say whether or not the losing finalists would have won the cup instead of Rangers because a team RFC knocked out in an earlier round whilst RFC fielded an ineligible player could have gone on to win the cup if a 3-0 win against RFC is assumed. League championships are a different matter though as all results involving RFC fielding ineligible players could be amended and the overall result calculated.

Another main point the authorities need to take into account is that of precedent - both in the sense of taking into account historic examples of action taken where ineligible players have been fielded and of how any action they take now will set a precedent for the future should it be confirmed that players were ineligible.

Re the league championships, that would only work for the first season they used ebt's as all subsequent seasons they wouldn't have been in the top flight, they would have been relegated with 0 points!

[hibs0666]

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If the customer base believes the game is rigged, then there can be no decent footing. Bending over to appease the Huns destroys everyone else's confidence that there is a sport in there somewhere worth the bother of turning up. Better to clean up the Augean stables now, void all the competitions the Huns cheated in and then we can move on.

It's not bending over to appease anyone, it has to be about getting all clubs to recognise their responsibilities to the wider game and starting to act appropriately. I think we have to be clear - we do not have a game worth bothering to turn up to watch as it stands just now. How is this historical discussion going to do anything to create a better future for the game?

[GreenOnions]

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Re the league championships, that would only work for the first season they used ebt's as all subsequent seasons they wouldn't have been in the top flight, they would have been relegated with 0 points!

You make a good point sir (at least if we assume that ineligible players were fielded in sufficient games to imply RFC had fewer points than any other team) It's agreed though I think that, were 3-0 defeats to be awarded retrospectively for all games where ineligible players were fielded, we cannot just award cups (or probably championships either) to the team that finished second?

I think the precedent thing is quite important though. If it's confirmed at some point that EBT recipients were ineligible then the authorities will need to be aware that any action they take (or don't take) now will affect any action they can take in the future.

[MrSmith]

We need a complete reboot of our game! Until every part of the SFA/SPFL become transparent and work for the fans, not for self nor the old firm!I think we should start a petition for no confidence in the SFA/SPFL as the line needs to be drawn and all who are involved in this shocking corruption be dealt with appropriately, including those who have moved on ....

[Just Alf]

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You make a good point sir (at least if we assume that ineligible players were fielded in sufficient games to imply RFC had fewer points than any other team) It's agreed though I think that, were 3-0 defeats to be awarded retrospectively for all games where ineligible players were fielded, we cannot just award cups (or probably championships either) to the team that finished second?

I think the precedent thing is quite important though. If it's confirmed at some point that EBT recipients were ineligible then the authorities will need to be aware that any action they take (or don't take) now will affect any action they can take in the future.

I keep thinking about the Spartans situation... on one of the form pages, the laddie signed in one box and missed the other at the bottom, as a result he was deemed ineligible and they were stripped of their win and effectively chucked out the competition that year..... now...... how does the EBT side letters compare to that?... in that situation they (Rangers) were paying players more than they had told the footballing authorities, thereby clearly breaking the rules.

That's purely the "Sporting" rules, the Tax stuff is on top of that.

For me, I think the titles are tainted and should be deleted, not reassigned etc, then we can all move on.

As an aside, my Dad is a Hun and he was spouting last night that because it looks like the titles wont be taken off them it proves the sporting side wasn't impacted so they won them fair and square and are still record holders in number of titles won

[Hibee87]

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http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...orts-1-3944848

For those that won't read the Sun.
I really hope the SFA have a way of passing the cost of this onto Sevco otherwise it's going to cost Hibs money we can little afford right now.


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I dont understand, how will any of this cost Hibs money?

[Ozyhibby]

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I dont understand, how will any of this cost Hibs money?

Because the SFA is a membership organisation and any money they spend defending Sevco against Ashley will need to be paid for by the member clubs.


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[Hibee87]

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Because the SFA is a membership organisation and any money they spend defending Sevco against Ashley will need to be paid for by the member clubs.


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And how much do you recon this would cost, im more thinking of the lower league teams. even a 50k contribution could put some teams in serious danger surley?

[PatHead]

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Because the SFA is a membership organisation and any money they spend defending Sevco against Ashley will need to be paid for by the member clubs.


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They won't be defending The Rangers though. It is the SFA who have found them fit and proper so it will be the SFA in court.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Because the SFA is a membership organisation and any money they spend defending Sevco against Ashley will need to be paid for by the member clubs.


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They also get revenue from the Scottish Cup and the national team. More likely it would be youth football etc that would lose money than the professional clubs.

[StevieC]

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Because the SFA is a membership organisation and any money they spend defending Sevco against Ashley will need to be paid for by the member clubs.

I don't think they can invoice the member clubs for something they've done wrong. It's more likely to affect the budget used for the blazers to lap it up in hospitality at the cup finals and the Scotland games.

[JeMeSouviens]

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It's not bending over to appease anyone, it has to be about getting all clubs to recognise their responsibilities to the wider game and starting to act appropriately. I think we have to be clear - we do not have a game worth bothering to turn up to watch as it stands just now. How is this historical discussion going to do anything to create a better future for the game?

Self evident isn't it? The same reason the Tour de France was voided for the Lance Armstrong years. Pro cycling is interesting in that the authorities spent years from Festina onwards trying to ignore blatant cheating and sweep as much as possible under the carpet in order not to harm commercial interests. Look where that got them.

[JeMeSouviens]

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I keep thinking about the Spartans situation... on one of the form pages, the laddie signed in one box and missed the other at the bottom, as a result he was deemed ineligible and they were stripped of their win and effectively chucked out the competition that year..... now...... how does the EBT side letters compare to that?... in that situation they (Rangers) were paying players more than they had told the footballing authorities, thereby clearly breaking the rules.

That's purely the "Sporting" rules, the Tax stuff is on top of that.

For me, I think the titles are tainted and should be deleted, not reassigned etc, then we can all move on.

As an aside, my Dad is a Hun and he was spouting last night that because it looks like the titles wont be taken off them it proves the sporting side wasn't impacted so they won them fair and square and are still record holders in number of titles won

Exactly how I feel.

[hibs0666]

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Self evident isn't it? The same reason the Tour de France was voided for the Lance Armstrong years. Pro cycling is interesting in that the authorities spent years from Festina onwards trying to ignore blatant cheating and sweep as much as possible under the carpet in order not to harm commercial interests. Look where that got them.

This is not about commercial interests though. Our clubs efforts in Europe are pathetic. Interest in our game beyond Scotland is negligible. Our national team continues to bump along the bottom.

I despise the huns as much as anyone but it will be no cause for celebration to see the huns suffer more if our game turns semi professional due to neglect of the bigger picture.

[Ozyhibby]

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I don't think they can invoice the member clubs for something they've done wrong. It's more likely to affect the budget used for the blazers to lap it up in hospitality at the cup finals and the Scotland games.

Haha, that's the one budget that would remain untouched.
The money generated by the Scottish cup and the Scotland team should be distributed for the good of the game, not spent on lawyers defending the shocking decision to pass King fit and proper. Should the SFA lose this case, Ashley will be entitled to significant compensation. The value of his shareholding has been almost wiped out by the delisting and the the value of his commercial deals have been totally undermined by King. If Sevco go bust, you can multiply those losses.
Who would bet on the SFA being successful in defending their decision to pass King fit and proper?
This could cost the Scottish game a lot of money.


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[brog]

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And, looking at the fixtures they don't have a home game before their November wages day.

John James seems to suggest, bold below, that Sevco have managed to get the £2.5 m needed to see them through to next year. Meanwhile in today's DR, half loaf states he'll have no problem asking for £1m to buy a player! I'm sure he'll have no problem asking!! Mind you he also says they've managed to get every player they went after, looks like Scotty's been airbrushed to history!

If King’s stupidity continues unchecked, his costs of litigation, when added to those of Green, could exceed the £2.5m in emergency funding that has been raised by Mr Taylor and Mr Letham.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Haha, that's the one budget that would remain untouched.
The money generated by the Scottish cup and the Scotland team should be distributed for the good of the game, not spent on lawyers defending the shocking decision to pass King fit and proper. Should the SFA lose this case, Ashley will be entitled to significant compensation. The value of his shareholding has been almost wiped out by the delisting and the the value of his commercial deals have been totally undermined by King. If Sevco go bust, you can multiply those losses.
Who would bet on the SFA being successful in defending their decision to pass King fit and proper?
This could cost the Scottish game a lot of money.


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Chances are that they have insurance in place to limit any losses.

[Ozyhibby]

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This is not about commercial interests though. Our clubs efforts in Europe are pathetic. Interest in our game beyond Scotland is negligible. Our national team continues to bump along the bottom.

I despise the huns as much as anyone but it will be no cause for celebration to see the huns suffer more whilst our game turns semi professional due to neglect of the bigger picture.

The completion has to be fair before anyone can rebuild it. If we are to have reconciliation then there needs to be truth first.
There has been collusion between Rangers (old and new) and the SFA to rig the game and we need to get to the bottom of it first before we can start to think about rebuilding it.
Sticking our head in the sand kidding on its not happening is what has laid our game so low in the first place.


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[Jim44]

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http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...orts-1-3944848

For those that won't read the Sun.
I really hope the SFA have a way of passing the cost of this onto Sevco otherwise it's going to cost Hibs money we can little afford right now.


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I don't see how the SFA can pass on costs to Sevco. They themselves made the judgement, Ashley is challenging their decision, so they either defend the judgement or capitulate. Presumably, either action will cost money. If King is dethroned, some may say it's money well spent. :

[Ozyhibby]

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I don't see how the SFA can pass on costs to Sevco. They themselves made the judgement, Ashley is challenging their decision, so they either defend the judgement or capitulate. Presumably, either action will cost money. If King is dethroned, some may say it's money well spent.

Neither can I, it was just a forlorn hope.



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[Ozyhibby]

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Chances are that they have insurance in place to limit any losses.

Let's hope so.


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[Ozyhibby]

http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/whi...medium=twitter


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[Kato]

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http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/whi...medium=twitter


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Groups of Celtic and Hearts fans are becoming unnervingly cooperative,

Someone needs to point out they are among the whitewashers.

[hibs0666]

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The completion has to be fair before anyone can rebuild it. If we are to have reconciliation then there needs to be truth first.
There has been collusion between Rangers (old and new) and the SFA to rig the game and we need to get to the bottom of it first before we can start to think about rebuilding it.
Sticking our head in the sand kidding on its not happening is what has laid our game so low in the first place.


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Very lofty statements, but let's get real here. What people want to see is the huns lose titles. You'll need to explain to me how that is going to improve the game going forward in any shape or form. All I can see happening is we'll end up spending the next few years fiddling whilst Rome burns.

[Springbank]

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John James seems to suggest, bold below, that Sevco have managed to get the £2.5 m needed to see them through to next year. Meanwhile in today's DR, half loaf states he'll have no problem asking for £1m to buy a player! I'm sure he'll have no problem asking!! Mind you he also says they've managed to get every player they went after, looks like Scotty's been airbrushed to history!

If King’s stupidity continues unchecked, his costs of litigation, when added to those of Green, could exceed the £2.5m in emergency funding that has been raised by Mr Taylor and Mr Letham.

What's interesting about the part in bold is that Rangers or dave kings recent statement suggested all 3 of the 3 bears including Donald Park had dipped their hand in their pocket.

Bloggers said Park was at war with king and had refused to contribute

Here Park is airbrushed

Any journos care to shed light on why no mention of park here now?

[Springbank]

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Very lofty statements, but let's get real here. What people want to see is the huns lose titles. You'll need to explain to me how that is going to improve the game going forward in any shape or form. All I can see happening is we'll end up spending the next few years fiddling whilst Rome burns.

Simple

No sectarianism

No safe house for sectarianism

No visits from the violent filthy away support

More trophies going to other parts of Scotland

The last 3 years have been a pleasant armageddon

[Ozyhibby]

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Groups of Celtic and Hearts fans are becoming unnervingly cooperative,

Someone needs to point out they are among the whitewashers.

I'd rather not for now. Hopefully when the SFA cave, they launch an investigation in the tax affairs of all clubs in attempt to not make it about Rangers.


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[JimBHibees]

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Very lofty statements, but let's get real here. What people want to see is the huns lose titles. You'll need to explain to me how that is going to improve the game going forward in any shape or form. All I can see happening is we'll end up spending the next few years fiddling whilst Rome burns.

I think the question needs to be asked, "What would happen if it was another club". Apart from the obvious one who would be treated with kid gloves also all the rest IMO would be absolutely slaughtered and yes they would lose the titles. It is the right thing to do and should happen so that IMO the game moves on.

[southern hibby]

If we do an inquiry ( by the SFA) and titles trophies etc are removed this sets a base line that all clubs know and understand. Basically if your caught cheating then your team will suffer.

It also shows to teams that if a team is caught cheating then the SFA have the minerals to take you on and it doesn't matter how big you think you are.

Wonder what will happen if the Livingstone Owner files a complaint saying my team was docked 5 points and £10,000 after we admired our misdemeanour. The Rangers have not admitted it found in a Scottish Court to have done it and SFA do nothing about it. Will this not send out to clubs never to admit to anything which may mean getting hammered when we deny it and know nothing will happen to us.

The SFA need to act and act decisively and with a backbone for the good of our game in the long run

GGTTH

[hibs0666]

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I think the question needs to be asked, "What would happen if it was another club". Apart from the obvious one who would be treated with kid gloves also all the rest IMO would be absolutely slaughtered and yes they would lose the titles. It is the right thing to do and should happen so that IMO the game moves on.

So the huns lose titles. How does that stop Hibs from getting slaughtered by Malmo? How does that help us to qualify for the next World Cup? How does that help us increase TV income so that we get the best players we possibly can into the Scottish game?

It is a sideshow and, as we can see from this site, attracts way more interest and input than its importance merits.