Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

**JeMeSouviens** · 02-10-2015 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

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Correct. They do owe the tax man both in respect of VAT and the Wee Tax Case which is a share option thing from 2000-2003 used against the contracts of two players. Minus HMRC's penalties in total they owe about £9m.

The BTC is HMRC chasing a precedent they can use to chase other Companies for backdated taxes although right now the Tax man is 0-2 down and it's not exactly looking hopeful for them.

Even if what the Old Huns did is eventually declared mostly legal by tenuous loophole, they still pursued an immoral policy of aggressive tax avoidance that HMRC is obliged to go after. Therefore they laid themselves open to everything that came to them. They tried to fund overspending by ripping off the rest of us (taxpayers).

So no sympathy for the *******s!

**AndyM_1875** · 02-10-2015 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

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Even if what the Old Huns did is eventually declared mostly legal by tenuous loophole, they still pursued an immoral policy of aggressive tax avoidance that HMRC is obliged to go after. Therefore they laid themselves open to everything that came to them. They tried to fund overspending by ripping off the rest of us (taxpayers).

So no sympathy for the *******s!

Rangers get no sympathy from me (horrible club) but there is nothing tenuous about what they did. It was legal and no amounts of spoofery and fake outrage from unqualified muppets like Mad Phil changes that.
It is the alleged bungled application of it by Rangers that is the issue on the BTC and right now the Tax Man is losing 0-2.

Whether or not Tax Avoidance (itself not a crime) is immoral is another debate entirely and not really relevant as there isn't any shortage of companies in the UK that will not seek to reduce tax liability if they have the option and if it is possible and legal.

***Ozyhibby*** · 02-10-2015 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

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Rangers get no sympathy from me (horrible club) but there is nothing tenuous about what they did. It was legal and no amounts of spoofery and fake outrage from unqualified muppets like Mad Phil changes that.
It is the alleged bungled application of it by Rangers that is the issue on the BTC and right now the Tax Man is losing 0-2.

Whether or not Tax Avoidance (itself not a crime) is immoral is another debate entirely and not really relevant as there isn't any shortage of companies in the UK that will not seek to reduce tax liability if they have the option and if it is possible and legal.

The wee tax case was ruled illegal and the side letters were against the rules of Football.

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**PatHead** · 02-10-2015 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

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Rangers get no sympathy from me (horrible club) but there is nothing tenuous about what they did. It was legal and no amounts of spoofery and fake outrage from unqualified muppets like Mad Phil changes that.
It is the alleged bungled application of it by Rangers that is the issue on the BTC and right now the Tax Man is losing 0-2.

Whether or not Tax Avoidance (itself not a crime) is immoral is another debate entirely and not really relevant as there isn't any shortage of companies in the UK that will not seek to reduce tax liability if they have the option and if it is possible and legal.

Remember the old club did get found guilty for some cases just not the "big one". So they were guilt of not paying tax and used that to their advantage. Don't fall for the "victims" spin put out by the MSM.

Edit See Ozzy has beaten me to my comments. Glad I am not the only way who thinks like that.

***Ozyhibby*** · 02-10-2015 11:10 AM

https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/...e-in-the-park/

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**JeMeSouviens** · 02-10-2015 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

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Rangers get no sympathy from me (horrible club) but there is nothing tenuous about what they did. It was legal and no amounts of spoofery and fake outrage from unqualified muppets like Mad Phil changes that.
It is the alleged bungled application of it by Rangers that is the issue on the BTC and right now the Tax Man is losing 0-2.

Whether or not Tax Avoidance (itself not a crime) is immoral is another debate entirely and not really relevant as there isn't any shortage of companies in the UK that will not seek to reduce tax liability if they have the option and if it is possible and legal.

If it wasn't tenuous, HMRC wouldn't have been able to bring a claim in the first place. If you're going to play that far on the edge of the law, then you need deep pockets in case you have to defend yourself.

Which the Old Huns didn't have. Ha ha.

**AndyM_1875** · 02-10-2015 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by PatHead

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Remember the old club did get found guilty for some cases just not the "big one". So they were guilt of not paying tax and used that to their advantage. Don't fall for the "victims" spin put out by the MSM.

Edit See Ozzy has beaten me to my comments. Glad I am not the only way who thinks like that.

My point was in relation to the BTC, the Tax Avoidance scheme. The wee Tax case isn't even up for debate. They owe on that.

I'm not interested in spin of any sort whether its the "we need Rangers" drivel from the compliant lackeys in the MSM and certainly not the tear stained, spittle fuelled, outbursts of utter futility from Phil, Clumpany & the various other Sellik minded simpletons.

I like my information untainted & factual which is why I enjoy CWG's posts on this thread.

***grunt*** · 02-10-2015 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

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I like my information untainted & factual which is why I enjoy CWG's posts on this thread.

Slurp!

***greenginger*** · 02-10-2015 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

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My point was in relation to the BTC, the Tax Avoidance scheme. The wee Tax case isn't even up for debate. They owe on that.

I'm not interested in spin of any sort whether its the "we need Rangers" drivel from the compliant lackeys in the MSM and certainly not the tear stained, spittle fuelled, outbursts of utter futility from Phil, Clumpany & the various other Sellik minded simpletons.

I like my information untainted & factual which is why I enjoy CWG's posts on this thread.

Much as I appreciate CWGs posts I don't think they have the same coverage as the bloggers you mention, and with the continual highlighting of the inconsistencies of 2012 events the court case may never have got going. The msm were never going to raise it.

BDO got away with their dishonest scam when they confirmed Hearts CVA because nobody, out with few posters on here , were interested.

**AndyM_1875** · 02-10-2015 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by greenginger

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Much as I appreciate CWGs posts I don't think they have the same coverage as the bloggers you mention, and with the continual highlighting of the inconsistencies of 2012 events the court case may never have got going. The msm were never going to raise it.

I'd perhaps pay attention to these bloggers and not treat them with contempt if they didn't come out with outright lies and I hadn't realized long ago that they were trying to sell me something.

***Ozyhibby*** · 02-10-2015 07:40 PM

https://audioboom.com/boos/3626056-t...source=twitter

Worth a listen

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**hctroubador** · 02-10-2015 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

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If it wasn't tenuous, HMRC wouldn't have been able to bring a claim in the first place. If you're going to play that far on the edge of the law, then you need deep pockets in case you have to defend yourself.

Which the Old Huns didn't have. Ha ha.

Not commenting on the Rangers case, but HMRC dines out on tenuous claims. Unlike a legal court with an HMRC charge there is no presumption of innocence. You are guilty until you prove otherwise. As most people have neither the means or sophistication to fight this over the long term HRMC coins it in tenuous claims.

**~~majorhibs~~** · 02-10-2015 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by AndyM_1875

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My point was in relation to the BTC, the Tax Avoidance scheme. The wee Tax case isn't even up for debate. They owe on that.

I'm not interested in spin of any sort whether its the "we need Rangers" drivel from the compliant lackeys in the MSM and certainly not the tear stained, spittle fuelled, outbursts of utter futility from Phil, Clumpany & the various other Sellik minded simpletons.

I like my information untainted & factual which is why I enjoy CWG's posts on this thread.

Untainted & factual - while some are blindsided by "outbursts" from individuals they dinnae like, the big picture goin back a long time is that 2 & ONLY 2, teams in Scotland used devious means to gain advantage against ALL teams in Scotland, but the one that sticks wi me is all the savs & huns times getting above Hibs, but, whoever the individual & whatever their main leanings, the fact that said savs & huns beat my team, namely Hibernian FC, in leagues & cups, while ILLEGALLY doing so financially, (while my team suffered defeats but followed the law & guidelines) means that anyone, regardless wether I respect them from afore cos they were good, but if your sticking up for the the's or the savs sorry but thats not my cup of tea. They want their "history" but they don't want mention of how it's tainted? Sorry. It's tainted.

**ehf** · 02-10-2015 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by majorhibs

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Untainted & factual - while some are blindsided by "outbursts" from individuals they dinnae like, the big picture goin back a long time is that 2 & ONLY 2, teams in Scotland used devious means to gain advantage against ALL teams in Scotland, but the one that sticks wi me is all the savs & huns times getting above Hibs, but, whoever the individual & whatever their main leanings, the fact that said savs & huns beat my team, namely Hibernian FC, in leagues & cups, while ILLEGALLY doing so financially, (while my team suffered defeats but followed the law & guidelines) means that anyone, regardless wether I respect them from afore cos they were good, but if your sticking up for the the's or the savs sorry but thats not my cup of tea. They want their "history" but they don't want mention of how it's tainted? Sorry. It's tainted.

Pass the hatstand, Mildred.

**Kaff** · 02-10-2015 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by hctroubador

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Not commenting on the Rangers case, but HMRC dines out on tenuous claims. Unlike a legal court with an HMRC charge there is no presumption of innocence. You are guilty until you prove otherwise. As most people have neither the means or sophistication to fight this over the long term HRMC coins it in tenuous claims.

Absolutely, nothing to do with football but this is my personal bitter experience of them

***Libby Hibby*** · 03-10-2015 05:38 AM

Add in to the fact that the players involved had to sign 2 contracts, one for the EBT's and one to comply with SFA rules...Ogilvie served on the RFC board and the on the SFA at the same time, directly making the SFA aware of what was going on...and they say FIFA is corrupt???

***CropleyWasGod*** · 03-10-2015 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Kaff

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Absolutely, nothing to do with football but this is my personal bitter experience of them

I'd agree with that :)

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***CropleyWasGod*** · 03-10-2015 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by majorhibs

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Untainted & factual - while some are blindsided by "outbursts" from individuals they dinnae like, the big picture goin back a long time is that 2 & ONLY 2, teams in Scotland used devious means to gain advantage against ALL teams in Scotland, but the one that sticks wi me is all the savs & huns times getting above Hibs, but, whoever the individual & whatever their main leanings, the fact that said savs & huns beat my team, namely Hibernian FC, in leagues & cups, while ILLEGALLY doing so financially, (while my team suffered defeats but followed the law & guidelines) means that anyone, regardless wether I respect them from afore cos they were good, but if your sticking up for the the's or the savs sorry but thats not my cup of tea. They want their "history" but they don't want mention of how it's tainted? Sorry. It's tainted.

Wouldn't you add Dundee, Gretna and (with particular reference to Hibs ) Livi to that list?

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***Ozyhibby*** · 03-10-2015 12:29 PM

https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/...ning-on-fumes/

Money running out?

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**Platinum Scotty** · 03-10-2015 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/...ning-on-fumes/

Money running out?

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if his numbers are right then someone needs to bail them out or they doomef again!!!

**Platinum Scotty** · 03-10-2015 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/...ning-on-fumes/

Money running out?

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if his numbers are right then someone needs to bail them out or they doomed again!!!

***Ozyhibby*** · 03-10-2015 01:04 PM

https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/...ertible-facts/

Here are his numbers.

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**Lago** · 03-10-2015 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/...ning-on-fumes/

Money running out?

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I will believe that only when it happens, they have more lives than a cat.

***CropleyWasGod*** · 03-10-2015 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/...ertible-facts/

Here are his numbers.

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He starts off slagging Phil for having no legitimacy to his claims, and then makes assertions of his own which would require inside information of an extremely detailed nature. He may well have that, of course.

However, he then blows his "incontrovertible" claims out of the water by making a complete pig's ear of the question of VAT.

***Jack*** · 03-10-2015 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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He starts off slagging Phil for having no legitimacy to his claims, and then makes assertions of his own which would require inside information of an extremely detailed nature. He may well have that, of course.

However, he then blows his "incontrovertible" claims out of the water by making a complete pig's ear of the question of VAT.

VAT was their downfall the last time wasn't it?

Maybe they've still not got to grips with it!

**ballengeich** · 03-10-2015 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/...ertible-facts/

Here are his numbers.

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He seems to think the 13-14 revenue includes the share issue and Ashley loan. I think that's wrong and that the projected loss for this season should be around £4 million. It's still a serious problem for them, but doesn't indicate that the cash will run out this month.

***Ozyhibby*** · 03-10-2015 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by ballengeich

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He seems to think the 13-14 revenue includes the share issue and Ashley loan. I think that's wrong and that the projected loss for this season should be around £4 million. It's still a serious problem for them, but doesn't indicate that the cash will run out this month.

The share money he is talking about is the loans from the 3 bears. Not sure what year that was though.

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***CropleyWasGod*** · 03-10-2015 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by ballengeich

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He seems to think the 13-14 revenue includes the share issue and Ashley loan. I think that's wrong and that the projected loss for this season should be around £4 million. It's still a serious problem for them, but doesn't indicate that the cash will run out this month.

Yeah, I picked up on that, too. By that time, his incontrovertible evidence was shot to bits and my eyes were glazing over.

The other thing worth bearing in mind is that the VAT should still be included in the cash flow. Albeit, at some stage, it has to be paid over to HMRC, it doesn't mean that they will. As in the previous situation, non-payment of VAT and PAYE can be used to buy time.