Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[CropleyWasGod]

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Difficult to say it's the same thing if the amounts are different, no?
It is surely possible that there are two amounts leaving the club?
I'm pretty sure these guys could find a way of hiding the money given that it's estimated they spent about £70m in the two years after the ipo and nobody seems to know what on?


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I'd prefer to let the auditors, the property valuers and MA's lawyers make a judgement on that. Thus far, Phil has only speculated, with nothing in the way of hard evidence.

[Ozyhibby]

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I'd prefer to let the auditors, the property valuers and MA's lawyers make a judgement on that. Thus far, Phil has only speculated, with nothing in the way of hard evidence.

I agree on that although I hope it's more that just MA's lawyers that eventually pass judgement.
I'm not saying that Phil is correct, just that it's hard to say with any certainty what is correct in this whole thing.



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[CropleyWasGod]

I have too much time on my hands today

The accounts have the following statement:-

At 31 August 2012 the Directors valued the Freehold Properties, comprising Ibrox stadium and Murray Park training facility based on a value in use calculation of the net present values of future operating cash flows.

They don't mention the car park or Edmiston House. Two thoughts:-

1. those may be included as "the stadium", since they're adjoining.

2. they may not be, and RIFC don't own them any more. In that case, either the reports of MA having security over them are wrong, or (as was discussed earlier) his lawyers really have f'd up.

[Just Alf]

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Yep, but the accounts are quite clear. "Hire of plant and equipment". Not "rent of property". They then explain it as "The finance leases relate to funding of the refurbishment of the stadium fast food outlets."

The accounts go on to say that the Properties (plural) have been valued by.... etc etc.

And the leases are nowhere near what Phil says. £477k pa according to the accounts.

Sigh...... Every time I get all exited YOU come along and burst my bubble with the pesky truth!!







PS keep up the good work, glad someone can get a handle reality

[JeMeSouviens]

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I have too much time on my hands today

The accounts have the following statement:-

At 31 August 2012 the Directors valued the Freehold Properties, comprising Ibrox stadium and Murray Park training facility based on a value in use calculation of the net present values of future operating cash flows.

They don't mention the car park or Edmiston House. Two thoughts:-

1. those may be included as "the stadium", since they're adjoining.

2. they may not be, and RIFC don't own them any more. In that case, either the reports of MA having security over them are wrong, or (as was discussed earlier) his lawyers really have f'd up.

Rather than any hiving by CG once installed in Ibrox as chairman, is it not more likely that the ownership of *all* the assets is questionable because of dodgy dealings in the acquisition of the Hun brand and assets by Sevco? If it's proved that Duff, Duffer, CG and CW were all in cahoots, could that purchase be challenged and the assets returned to the liquidator? Thus putting MA's security in doubt and making him more likely to try and get his money back sharpish.

[CallumLaidlaw]

Glasgow Rangers - Always the flippin' victim

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...robe-1-3877838

[CropleyWasGod]

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Rather than any hiving by CG once installed in Ibrox as chairman, is it not more likely that the ownership of *all* the assets is questionable because of dodgy dealings in the acquisition of the Hun brand and assets by Sevco? If it's proved that Duff, Duffer, CG and CW were all in cahoots, could that purchase be challenged and the assets returned to the liquidator? Thus putting MA's security in doubt and making him more likely to try and get his money back sharpish.

They wouldn't be returned to the liquidator. The liquidator has never had them in his possession.

If they were to be returned to anyone, it would be the administrators to redo the whole CVA process. In your scenario, that's not an option.

As I mentioned earlier, if it's proven that the creditors have been shafted.....either through incompetence or fraud....the liquidator can sue the administrators.

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[Cropley10]

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I have too much time on my hands today

The accounts have the following statement:-

At 31 August 2012 the Directors valued the Freehold Properties, comprising Ibrox stadium and Murray Park training facility based on a value in use calculation of the net present values of future operating cash flows.

They don't mention the car park or Edmiston House. Two thoughts:-

1. those may be included as "the stadium", since they're adjoining.

2. they may not be, and RIFC don't own them any more. In that case, either the reports of MA having security over them are wrong, or (as was discussed earlier) his lawyers really have f'd up.

Pretty sure the Registers of Scotland shows both EH and the car park as belonging to Rangers. It's also a matter of public record that MA does have security over them.

What has NEVER been properly established is who really owns Ibrox itself, as if the Rangers did there would, surely, be no harm, or shame in mortgaging it to provide much needed capital.

I still say that MA is looking for a watertight loan default condition in order to tighten the screw.

[Cropley10]

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Yep, but the accounts are quite clear. "Hire of plant and equipment". Not "rent of property". They then explain it as "The finance leases relate to funding of the refurbishment of the stadium fast food outlets."

The accounts go on to say that the Properties (plural) have been valued by.... etc etc.

And the leases are nowhere near what Phil says. £477k pa according to the accounts.

So, how would say a royalty fee show in the accounts....?

Let's suppose that an offshore company has a contract whereby they're legally entitled to a percentage of the gate, or in return for some 'service' they receive a 'royalty payment' based on attendance and/or which Division the team plays in.

Bear in mind that Green and Co set up 'onerous contracts' deliberately so as to avoid any specific detailed inspection and more importantly to benefit themselves...

[JeMeSouviens]

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They wouldn't be returned to the liquidator. The liquidator has never had them in his possession.

If they were to be returned to anyone, it would be the administrators to redo the whole CVA process. In your scenario, that's not an option.

As I mentioned earlier, if it's proven that the creditors have been shafted.....either through incompetence or fraud....the liquidator can sue the administrators.

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BDO seem quite good on the litigation front. What would happen to the assets if BDO won? Does RIFC get to keep them? Aren't they effectively stolen goods at that point?

[greenginger]

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BDO seem quite good on the litigation front. What would happen to the assets if BDO won? Does RIFC get to keep them? Aren't they effectively stolen goods at that point?

And maybe someone should sue BDO for the fiddled result on the vote in favour of Heart of Midlothian's CVA.

[GreenLake]

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Yeah that's what the head is saying. But there have been so many twists in this case......

The film is going to be a belter.

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Unfortunately, John Candy won't be able to play McCoist.

[AndyM_1875]

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BDO seem quite good on the litigation front. What would happen to the assets if BDO won? Does RIFC get to keep them? Aren't they effectively stolen goods at that point?

Rangers will be unaffected.

This is a dispute between Administrator and Liquidator. BDO would sue D&P.

[greenginger]

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Rangers will be unaffected.

This is a dispute between Administrator and Liquidator. BDO would sue D&P.

More than likely, but until it is sorted out I think a fresh share issue is out of the question and loans from Real Rangers men will be thin on the ground.

[AndyM_1875]

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More than likely, but until it is sorted out I think a fresh share issue is out of the question and loans from Real Rangers men will be thin on the ground.

Do Rangers need loans? I have no idea.

They have a much cheaper squad than last season and they're playing to 45k crowds. Income must surely be up

[greenginger]

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Do Rangers need loans? I have no idea.

They have a much cheaper squad than last season and they're playing to 45k crowds. Income must surely be up

I can't see the 4 guys they brought up from England being cheaper than Boyd, Dailly, Black etc and Warburton and Weir , who knows. I would guess £ 1 million for the manager and £ 0.5 m for the assistant.

Last season they were toiling for cash by December and that was starting with £ 5 million of share issue money still in the bank.

[Ozyhibby]

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Rangers will be unaffected.

This is a dispute between Administrator and Liquidator. BDO would sue D&P.

If the assets of the new Rangers were incorrectly represented in the ipo then surely some of the institutional investors may have a case against the new Rangers?
I think it's too early to say that new Rangers will be unaffected.


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[Ozyhibby]

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I can't see the 4 guys they brought up from England being cheaper than Boyd, Dailly, Black etc and Warburton and Weir , who knows. I would guess £ 1 million for the manager and £ 0.5 m for the assistant.

Last season they were toiling for cash by December and that was starting with £ 5 million of share issue money still in the bank.

King has said they will need external finance to finish the season.


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[CropleyWasGod]

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So, how would say a royalty fee show in the accounts....?

Let's suppose that an offshore company has a contract whereby they're legally entitled to a percentage of the gate, or in return for some 'service' they receive a 'royalty payment' based on attendance and/or which Division the team plays in.

Bear in mind that Green and Co set up 'onerous contracts' deliberately so as to avoid any specific detailed inspection and more importantly to benefit themselves...

Not sure if royalties need to be separately disclosed in the accounts. Cav will know.

Decent scam, though.

Edit. If the offshore company has a connection with the club, it would have to be disclosed as a Related Party Transaction


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[Moulin Yarns]

It must be desperate times in the world of Chartered Accountancy.

Campbell Dallas have accepted the role as auditors to the Rangers.

[CropleyWasGod]

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It must be desperate times in the world of Chartered Accountancy.

Campbell Dallas have accepted the role as auditors to the Rangers.

Everybody does dirty things for money. Some of us haggle about the price....

Where are you reading that?

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[Moulin Yarns]

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Everybody does dirty things for money. Some of us haggle about the price....

Where are you reading that?

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I saw it on the web. Maybe the Evening Times. On my phone now so can't link.

I googled Rangers and limited the search to 24 hours.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I saw it on the web. Maybe the Evening Times. On my phone now so can't link.

I googled Rangers and limited the search to 24 hours.

Just back in the office, and found it, cheers for that.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...tors-1-3877773

[Moulin Yarns]

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Just back in the office, and found it, cheers for that.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...tors-1-3877773

Yes that looks like it.

[ancient hibee]

If it's proved that the assets were fraudulently acquired surely the subsequent share issue would also have been fraudulent which would mean that the sale to the Easdale's would be suspect too.

[grunt]

award-winning, progressive and dynamic

Wow! Not words usually associated with the world of Chartered Accountancy!

[CropleyWasGod]

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Wow! Not words usually associated with the world of Chartered Accountancy!

Square go?

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[grunt]

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Square go?

No you're too big for me.

[CropleyWasGod]

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No you're too big for me.

Just as well this is a family board :)

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[Ozyhibby]

http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/the...tile-takeover/


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