#allisbarry at it again - Yams accounts

[Kato]

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I don't work for the council so I can't answer for them. I can only assume hearts repaired what was needed back then and have done yearly repairs to make sure it's safe enough for football fans to attend!

In the run up to both stands being declared unsafe and the letters being issued both clubs had made adjustments and repairs, things like widen the exit stairs, season upon season. The letters acknowledged the works done but said no more safety work on the existing stands could be done which would render them safe.

I don't blame Hibs for knocking the old one down in that case as given the history of obstinacy by the council on most dealings with Hibs we could well have come a cropper. I also don't blame Hearts for ignoring it as given the history of compliance between them and the council it's obvious they could just carry on.

Are you saying you think hearts have had some sort of back handers and certificates given just because you think EC have a few Jambos?

Why would I say that on a public forum? It's not a case of me "thinking" they have a few Jambos, it's true. Even one Celtic supporting councilor had a season ticket for tynie as he wanted "keep the natives happy".

Someone else below has described how their cosy relationship works and given when the one time they messed up with Hibs and illegally gave over the Lochend Butterfly to someone else then nothing happened in the way of disciplinary action I think it obvious there is some bias there.

On the topic of the trams I was on a stag with one of the head guys that done the contract. They hired a German firm for it and the messed the council about big time! Started asking for more money for metal etc and just kept increasing it. If the council stopped there and then they would have had to pay the company the original fee along with starting again. Now the EC are suing them and there will be a public enquiry about the way the council were backed into a corner!

Poor, poor council!! Blaming the Germans seems good sense but it will never stand up, or maybe it will the way they been destroying evidence since about 2008.

Allegedly there has been skimming going on since the project started and it has, again allegedly, nothing to do with the Germans and everything to do with unnecessary "exploratory" works being carried out again and again. Money goes into the hands of the road diggers and split with EC people, bloke in pub told me that so it might be rubbish, allegedly. Just like it might be rubbish that the allegations of scaffold companies going halves on their rent with council employees/elected officials - scaffold going up far too early and coming down months after work completed but the rent being paid for it by houdeholders, allegedly. Still they got caught with the Compulsory Repairs dodge and we all saw justice done, i.e. no criminal charges at all

For the record I still think the trams are a waste of space and money!

The trams are fine but we never ever pay for them given the incompetence and, alleged, criminal behaviour of certain parties.

[Bostonhibby]

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So for the last 15 years or so the Council, Fire Brigade and other bodies involved have just been turning a blind eye to the state of that stand and know it is unsafe and god forbid if there was a fire or the stand collapsed they will be happy to have that on there conscious for the rest of there life, it is 2014 and if the stand was not safe for purpose it would have been closed down by now, it is safe to say that the stand is safe or it wouldn't get the safety certificate, Council Fire brigade, Electrician, Gas company and who ever else it takes to get it passed safe have said nothing all theses years, no chance, they (yams) must be doing what is required to get things passed by all parties, FFS we are talking about a stand that holds over 1000 people and folk high up in places in Edinburgh are just buying that the past or present owners of this stand just because they are submitting or talking about moving/building a new stand would have still been waiting to see what happens, once again, no chance, it would have been closed down by now no matter who was dealing with it.

Was Partick Thistles main stand not closed down for a bit or limited to so many folk being allowed in the stand at one time, now the whole stand is open for away fans, Thistle reps must no folk in Glasgow council to get round this sort of thing as there stand is as just as much a dump as Tynie, they seem to be getting a safety certificate for there stand or is every club in Scotland with rickety old stands bribing there councilor's to pass there old stands safe.

Yes the Savilledome is a dump but they must be meeting requirements that makes it pass this safety certificate, no one in there right mind from the council or fire brigade would be daft enough to pass it safe if it wasn't and ruin there own life by telling lies and the life's of others.

And they wouldn't get the necessary public liability insurance easily either - its still a wreck of a stadium but whatever the minimum standard is they seem to bounce along at that level quite happily - I do have a feeling that the Local authority might have been a bit more liberal with the enforcement notices if (god forbid) Hibs were playing in a stadium of this standard, but refusing to shut it down when it should be is another matter.

[Jim44]

If truth be told I sometimes get a bit bored with this 'Jambo' thing, but then I always come round to thinking that the issue has to be kept 'live'. If we ceased to debate it, they are so deluded and morally unaware, that they would regard our silence and indifference as some kind of twisted amelioration of and justification for their club's dishonesty and vile behaviour.

[Kato]

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So for the last 15 years or so the Council, Fire Brigade and other bodies involved have just been turning a blind eye to the state of that stand and know it is unsafe and god forbid if there was a fire or the stand collapsed they will be happy to have that on there conscious for the rest of there life, it is 2014 and if the stand was not safe for purpose it would have been closed down by now, it is safe to say that the stand is safe or it wouldn't get the safety certificate, Council Fire brigade, Electrician, Gas company and who ever else it takes to get it passed safe have said nothing all theses years, no chance, they (yams) must be doing what is required to get things passed by all parties, FFS we are talking about a stand that holds over 1000 people and folk high up in places in Edinburgh are just buying that the past or present owners of this stand just because they are submitting or talking about moving/building a new stand would have still been waiting to see what happens, once again, no chance, it would have been closed down by now no matter who was dealing with it.

You might be right. If that's the case then Hibs must have mugged into knocking the old stand down and spending all that money on a new one as after both clubs were told neither stand would be issued with another certificate, no matter the amount of safety work carried out, Hearts ignored it and were issued one anyway whilst Hibs felt the council were serious and complied.

The council letters are the issue for me, not whether it is safe or not now.

[Kato]

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If truth be told I sometimes get a bit bored with this 'Jambo' thing, but then I always come round to thinking that the issue has to be kept 'live'. If we ceased to debate it, they are so deluded and morally unaware, that they would regard our silence and indifference as some kind of twisted amelioration of and justification for their club's dishonesty and vile behaviour.

I just don't like them, but that doesn't mean I'm paranoid or have a biased view towards them. These issues are real, did happen and in some way or another will be ongoing. That American CE the council employed a few years back said on his resignation that he was sick of "decisions being made depending on what football team you supported or what religion you were." It's the parochialism and small time outlook I don't like most.

[Ozyhibby]

Tynecastle costs a fortune to maintain. The longer they are there the better.
It's up to us to start making any advantage we have from our new stadium start to count. So far, under Petrie we have not done so.

[lapsedhibee]

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In the run up to both stands being declared unsafe and the letters being issued both clubs had made adjustments and repairs, things like widen the exit stairs, season upon season. The letters acknowledged the works done but said no more safety work on the existing stands could be done which would render them safe.

I don't blame Hibs for knocking the old one down in that case as given the history of obstinacy by the council on most dealings with Hibs we could well have come a cropper. I also don't blame Hearts for ignoring it as given the history of compliance between them and the council it's obvious they could just carry on.




Why would I say that on a public forum? It's not a case of me "thinking" they have a few Jambos, it's true. Even one Celtic supporting councilor had a season ticket for tynie as he wanted "keep the natives happy".

Someone else below has described how their cosy relationship works and given when the one time they messed up with Hibs and illegally gave over the Lochend Butterfly to someone else then nothing happened in the way of disciplinary action I think it obvious there is some bias there.




Poor, poor council!! Blaming the Germans seems good sense but it will never stand up, or maybe it will the way they been destroying evidence since about 2008.

Allegedly there has been skimming going on since the project started and it has, again allegedly, nothing to do with the Germans and everything to do with unnecessary "exploratory" works being carried out again and again. Money goes into the hands of the road diggers and split with EC people, bloke in pub told me that so it might be rubbish, allegedly. Just like it might be rubbish that the allegations of scaffold companies going halves on their rent with council employees/elected officials - scaffold going up far too early and coming down months after work completed but the rent being paid for it by houdeholders, allegedly. Still they got caught with the Compulsory Repairs dodge and we all saw justice done, i.e. no criminal charges at all



The trams are fine but we never ever pay for them given the incompetence and, alleged, criminal behaviour of certain parties.

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You might be right. If that's the case then Hibs must have mugged into knocking the old stand down and spending all that money on a new one as after both clubs were told neither stand would be issued with another certificate, no matter the amount of safety work carried out, Hearts ignored it and were issued one anyway whilst Hibs felt the council were serious and complied.

The council letters are the issue for me, not whether it is safe or not now.

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I just don't like them, but that doesn't mean I'm paranoid or have a biased view towards them. These issues are real, did happen and in some way or another will be ongoing. That American CE the council employed a few years back said on his resignation that he was sick of "decisions being made depending on what football team you supported or what religion you were." It's the parochialism and small time outlook I don't like most.

That's the way it all looks.

[Bostonhibby]

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Tynecastle costs a fortune to maintain. The longer they are there the better.
It's up to us to start making any advantage we have from our new stadium start to count. So far, under Petrie we have not done so.

[Waxy]

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Tynecastle costs a fortune to maintain. The longer they are there the better.
It's up to us to start making any advantage we have from our new stadium start to count. So far, under Petrie we have not done so.

This is it. They are for the taking now the have to live within their means.Their old stadium will just become more and more of a burden. Nevermind what's happening at the moment, in a few years we'll be in the top league and above them.

[brog]

I don't believe there's any deliberate skulduggery with regard to the old stand at PBS but neither do I think it's safe. After a really bad experience there about 15/20 years ago I said never again & also banned all my family from going there. My main concerns are about the ability to evacuate the stand. I'm also a bit surprised at the naivety of some netters. Accidents & tragedies happen in supposedly safe & regulated environments & afterwards you always hear that it was an accident waiting to happen. I genuinely hope we never have to say something similar about the PBS.

[Thecat23]

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In the run up to both stands being declared unsafe and the letters being issued both clubs had made adjustments and repairs, things like widen the exit stairs, season upon season. The letters acknowledged the works done but said no more safety work on the existing stands could be done which would render them safe.

I don't blame Hibs for knocking the old one down in that case as given the history of obstinacy by the council on most dealings with Hibs we could well have come a cropper. I also don't blame Hearts for ignoring it as given the history of compliance between them and the council it's obvious they could just carry on.




Why would I say that on a public forum? It's not a case of me "thinking" they have a few Jambos, it's true. Even one Celtic supporting councilor had a season ticket for tynie as he wanted "keep the natives happy".

Someone else below has described how their cosy relationship works and given when the one time they messed up with Hibs and illegally gave over the Lochend Butterfly to someone else then nothing happened in the way of disciplinary action I think it obvious there is some bias there.




Poor, poor council!! Blaming the Germans seems good sense but it will never stand up, or maybe it will the way they been destroying evidence since about 2008.

Allegedly there has been skimming going on since the project started and it has, again allegedly, nothing to do with the Germans and everything to do with unnecessary "exploratory" works being carried out again and again. Money goes into the hands of the road diggers and split with EC people, bloke in pub told me that so it might be rubbish, allegedly. Just like it might be rubbish that the allegations of scaffold companies going halves on their rent with council employees/elected officials - scaffold going up far too early and coming down months after work completed but the rent being paid for it by houdeholders, allegedly. Still they got caught with the Compulsory Repairs dodge and we all saw justice done, i.e. no criminal charges at all



The trams are fine but we never ever pay for them given the incompetence and, alleged, criminal behaviour of certain parties.

I don't think what ever I or anyone else says is going to make you think otherwise. Every company has shifty folk in it including the council but in no way is that the reason it's still open as it would have to pass more than just them. So let's agree to disagree!

You seem to think I'm sticking up for the council on the tram subject I'm not. I offered you an explanation from someone involved, I'm sure the German company may offer a different story and I'd actually like to hear it. For me both parties are to blame but hopefully with a public enquiry we will get some answers at least but I'll not hold my breath.

The trams may well be fine but they are not at all needed! So in that case it's a waste of money. We have one of the best bus services in Europe never mind UK so why congest our roads with these pointless metal tubes? Edinburgh was built around the use of horse and cart, we barely get by with cars and busses so for me I'll never use a tram and the novelty will wear off soon enough! Unless your visiting the city and may want a 20 min pointless ride to the airport!


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[tamig]

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You have been misinformed, the fault of the trams fiasco lies at Edinburgh City Councils door. The German company given the contract told the council they needed the wate
r gas electricity ect moved to one side of the road as the tram lines require to be built on solid ground and also for any possible inconvenience when works are necessary on these services. The council was given 18 months to carry out this enabling work, they failed to do it. When the Germans pitched up they found that they were on down time from day one. They were stunned to discover that the enabling works hadn't been carried out and this set off a chain of delays and penalties which we have now become familiar with. The enquiry may find that putting a couple of folk from the social work department with no experience of the construction industry in charge of such a major development wasn't their finest decision. The council is a den of chancers and amateurs from top to bottom. I wouldn't let them run a school nativity play, they would Dress Mary as Herod and would put someone from the statutory housing repairs fiasco in charge of stable and mainger maintenance

Well said FF. An absolute sham from beginning to end. They wanted to run the show themselves instead of hiring experts - who had offered their services - who' been there and done it before. A scandal of huge proportions.

[Bostonhibby]

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Well said FF. An absolute sham from beginning to end. They wanted to run the show themselves instead of hiring experts - who had offered their services - who' been there and done it before. A scandal of huge proportions.

I know and trust an Edinburgh lawyer who has worked on similar (but not this one) contracts and he was quite open about saying that the chat in related legal circles is that the actual contracts were drawn up in such a way that if major delays occurred over access / delivery that were in the councils control the main contractor were able to collect big payments whilst effectively doing nothing but waiting for the council to do their bit - said it was seen as a "bit of a one sided contract - boys against men". Just sharing info!

Agree re the quality and standard of Edinburghs bus service - anyone that comes up with me cant believe how good it is - trams have the feel of a bit of ego massaging for the politicos to me and not value for money in terms of whats been delivered at the cost and inconvenience.

[tamig]

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I know and trust an Edinburgh lawyer who has worked on similar (but not this one) contracts and he was quite open about saying that the chat in related legal circles is that the actual contracts were drawn up in such a way that if major delays occurred over access / delivery that were in the councils control the main contractor were able to collect big payments whilst effectively doing nothing but waiting for the council to do their bit - said it was seen as a "bit of a one sided contract - boys against men". Just sharing info!

Agree re the quality and standard of Edinburghs bus service - anyone that comes up with me cant believe how good it is - trams have the feel of a bit of ego massaging for the politicos to me and not value for money in terms of whats been delivered at the cost and inconvenience.

Lothian Buses have won numerous annual awards for being the best bus provider in the UK. What possessed Burns - sure he was the transport convener at the time - and co to come up with the hair brained proposal that trams were a good idea just beggars belief to me. Edinburgh is a compact city and buses are just fine. Wait until we see the impact of a couple of tram breakdowns. It will be chaos.

[silverhibee]

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You might be right. If that's the case then Hibs must have mugged into knocking the old stand down and spending all that money on a new one as after both clubs were told neither stand would be issued with another certificate, no matter the amount of safety work carried out, Hearts ignored it and were issued one anyway whilst Hibs felt the council were serious and complied.

The council letters are the issue for me, not whether it is safe or not now.

Soft touches.

[fat freddy]

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Lothian Buses have won numerous annual awards for being the best bus provider in the UK. What possessed Burns - sure he was the transport convener at the time - and co to come up with the hair brained proposal that trams were a good idea just beggars belief to me. Edinburgh is a compact city and buses are just fine. Wait until we see the impact of a couple of tram breakdowns. It will be chaos.

As I recall, the trams were decided upon as a way of the council fulfilling 'green' criteria with regards to reducing carbon emissions within the public transport system. At the time there was pressure on all local authorities to come up with ways of preventing pollution and some halfwit who had visited Sheffield and seen their trams suggested we follow their lead despite the fact that our city had the best bus service in Britain. Mass delusion and political vanity sealed the deal and we all know the rest...

[Thecat23]

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As I recall, the trams were decided upon as a way of the council fulfilling 'green' criteria with regards to reducing carbon emissions within the public transport system. At the time there was pressure on all local authorities to come up with ways of preventing pollution and some halfwit who had visited Sheffield and seen their trams suggested we follow their lead despite the fact that our city had the best bus service in Britain. Mass delusion and political vanity sealed the deal and we all know the rest...

That's exactly what I don't get! How folk would think we needed trams with the bus service we have. A lot of my family stay down south and when they come here to visit they can't believe how efficient our LRT service is. It was a waste of time then and and waste of time now.

Does anyone on here think that now we have them they actually improve traveling in the city? Or should I say from the Airport to York Place!! As another poster said, first time one breaks down it's going to be gridlock.

[greenginger]

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That's exactly what I don't get! How folk would think we needed trams with the bus service we have. A lot of my family stay down south and when they come here to visit they can't believe how efficient our LRT service is. It was a waste of time then and and waste of time now.

Does anyone on here think that now we have them they actually improve traveling in the city? Or should I say from the Airport to York Place!! As another poster said, first time one breaks down it's going to be gridlock.

Yeah, but you've got to remember all the gongs and awards these visionaries dreamed they be getting.

[Thecat23]

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Yeah, but you've got to remember all the gongs and awards these visionaries dreamed they be getting.

Good point!!


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[Sprouleflyer]

Hmmmmm, what's the trams got to do with Hearts accounts?

Talk about a thread hijack!

[blackpoolhibs]

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Couple my mates still sit in it. I've never sat in the stand and have no intention of sitting in it. But it's like saying anything that's old and made of wood is dangerous. With smoking band at games the risk of a fire is very low. The electrics will have been checked over and I'm sure the stand would have to pass certain safely regulations from not just EC but other sporting bodies.

I'm not saying it's perfect far from it. But do I think it's safe to hold Hearts fans? Yes I do.


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Sorted that for you.

[Ozyhibby]

People moan about the trams but still return Labour to run the city. It's like when we all moaned about the Iraq war then voted Tony Blair back in. :-(

[brog]

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People moan about the trams but still return Labour to run the city. It's like when we all moaned about the Iraq war then voted Tony Blair back in. :-(

I don't really want to continue with the hijacking of this thread but history has been rewritten with regard to the Iraq war. No party opposed the war on principle. At Westminster, the Lib Dems, SNP & 138 Labour MP's voted against going to war without a further UN mandate. When Tommy Sheridan proposed an anti-war vote ( on principle ) in the Scottish Parliament, he received only 5 votes in support.

[CropleyWasGod]

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People moan about the trams but still return Labour to run the city. It's like when we all moaned about the Iraq war then voted Tony Blair back in. :-(

Jenny Dawe was the trams mistress, wasn't she? The LibDems took a kicking at the last Council elections, presumably because of the trams.

[Ozyhibby]

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Jenny Dawe was the trams mistress, wasn't she? The LibDems took a kicking at the last Council elections, presumably because of the trams.

The Lib Dems only got in after the trams were approved.

[emerald green]

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[/B]
I don't really want to continue with the hijacking of this thread but history has been rewritten with regard to the Iraq war. No party opposed the war on principle. At Westminster, the Lib Dems, SNP & 138 Labour MP's voted against going to war without a further UN mandate. When Tommy Sheridan proposed an anti-war vote ( on principle ) in the Scottish Parliament, he received only 5 votes in support.

It's called selective memory syndrome.

[lord bunberry]

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That's exactly what I don't get! How folk would think we needed trams with the bus service we have. A lot of my family stay down south and when they come here to visit they can't believe how efficient our LRT service is. It was a waste of time then and and waste of time now.

Does anyone on here think that now we have them they actually improve traveling in the city? Or should I say from the Airport to York Place!! As another poster said, first time one breaks down it's going to be gridlock.

The tram has already broken down a few times. I believe it takes longer to get to the airport than the airport bus.

[Lucius Apuleius]

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It is obvious a wooden stand decking is not as safe as a concrete stand decking, but how less safe do you want something to be before the club are forced to comply with the notice they received to replace their stand.

They have been using delaying tactics for nearly 15 years, we are moving/ we have plans for a new stand. Now Budge has joined the game by talking about moving again.

The very least the Council should do is reduce the stand capacity significantly and force them to rebuild or move.

As for the trams, I think the single biggest cost increase was for moving services under the tram route. The Council employed a company that had never done that kind of work before and estimated at less than a quarter of the final cost.

Of course a proper cost estimate would never seen the tram project get to first base.

Berger had plenty experience moving utilities. Having been involved with them for many years I could have told the council that they make their money from change orders to the original contracts.

[tamig]

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Jenny Dawe was the trams mistress, wasn't she? The LibDems took a kicking at the last Council elections, presumably because of the trams.

Burns was behind the idea in his role of transport convener. Now the leader of the council.

[greenginger]

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Berger had plenty experience moving utilities. Having been involved with them for many years I could have told the council that they make their money from change orders to the original contracts.

Yeah, there were changes. Because half the services that required moving were not listed on the survey the council commissioned.

Berger could not be expected to cover the cost of of additional work not in the original contract. The reason the work was not included is something for the inquiry to discover. My monies on deliberate omission , but the inquiry will fudge it .