Scottish Independence

[James70]

Simply asking why you 'appeared' happy with comments from a foreign bureaucrat telling us (as EU citizens) that we would not be welcome as EU members if by democratic means we (the Scottish Electorate) vote for an iScotland?

FWIW, I did ask you to put 'your politics to one side' when answering my question, but would appear your disdain for the SNP got in the way of your response?[/QUOTE]

I am no fan of unelected European Commissioners myself but to be fair he was only giving a personal opinion and not dictating what we could or couldn't do. At the end of the day it will be for member states to decide and not any one individual.

[HiBremian]

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Barroso's been spouting this line for yonks, but he's never been challenged. He's making an assertion about what will happen, without being taken to task on it. Very much the same situation that BT folk said applied to Salmond until late. Surely the MSM should be asking the sort of questions of him they have of Salmond?:-

- Where's the precedent for the treatment of part of a member state becoming independent?
- What procedure will be used to legally remove EU citizenship from current citizens?
- What procedure will be used to remove the rights of free movement to and from Scotland?
- Where is your legal advice? Will you publish it?

If the answers to these questions boot me in the political guts, well fair enough, but surely they should be asked, rather than Barroso's convenient line being lapped up at face value? Somehow don't expect I should hold my breath, though, and until they are answered then I think Yes is quite right in dismissing them.

Some of the answers are attempted here:

http://www.futureukandscotland.ac.uk...endence-and-eu

[allmodcons]

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But on the flip side the SNP is the face of the Yes campaign so they are naturally being very closely associated with it.

It would appear the SNP are quite happy to descend to name calling. Project Fear and Bullying seem to have been their favourite over the last week or two.

Fact is some of these very fundamental questions should have been resolved long ago...the Yes campaign have continued down the line of just vote Yes them we'll sort it out for ages now, a dangerous tactic that, in my eyes at least, is leaving them looking a bit short of answers just now.

I'm sorry Simar, but if you're looking for 'concrete' answers to questions around currency and the EU before you vote in September 2014 this is not going to happen.

What you have at the moment, and will get right up to September, is political posturing (by both sides). If, as I hope, Scotland votes 'Yes' then you will see pragmatism take over.

With the likelihood of an 'in/out' EU referendum after the 2015 UK General Election neither campaign can guarantee certainty on the European issue and, like it or not, the issue of the pound is one where you (like everybody else) will have to take a decision based on the argument being articulated by either side.

[allmodcons]

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Some of the answers are attempted here:

http://www.futureukandscotland.ac.uk...endence-and-eu

It's a shame this guy wasn't interviewing Barroso on Sunday.

[RyeSloan]

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I'm sorry Simar, but if you're looking for 'concrete' answers to questions around currency and the EU before you vote in September 2014 this is not going to happen. What you have at the moment, and will get right up to September, is political posturing (by both sides). If, as I hope, Scotland votes 'Yes' then you will see pragmatism take over. With the likelihood of an 'in/out' EU referendum after the 2015 UK General Election neither campaign can guarantee certainty on the European issue and, like it or not, the issue of the pound is one where you (like everybody else) will have to take a decision based on the argument being articulated by either side.

Oh I know I won't get any answers. This, as you know, has been my beef from the start.

We are asking people to vote for something that is ill defined and could have significant unintended consequences on their and the nations well being. I don't like that approach and think that there should have been significantly more effort out into clarifying these key points before people were asked to vote...otherwise what,exactly, are we voting for?

[RyeSloan]

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Apologies if misunderstood, but not for 1 second was I taking the 'not real Scots' line. Simply asking why you 'appeared' happy with comments from a foreign bureaucrat telling us (as EU citizens) that we would not be welcome as EU members if by democratic means we (the Scottish Electorate) vote for an iScotland? FWIW, I did ask you to put 'your politics to one side' when answering my question, but would appear your disdain for the SNP got in the way of your response?

By what treaty do the citizens of a newly independent Scotland belong to the EU?

Would seem rather logical that by disassociating with the UK we do exactly the same with the legal agreements the UK currently has....or are we back to pick and choose here?

There is of course nothing saying we won't be welcomed back...but Barroso was merely pointing out that we shouldn't take that for granted.

I don't take any pleasure from this mess...in fact quite the opposite I find it all very depressing.

As for the politics of it all...it would appear almost impossible not to look at the SNP as the main players in the Yes campaign so I'm not sure how anyone can comment on the yes campaigns response without referring to the SNP.

[lucky]

Salmond is spinning what has been said yet again. The rUK parties of have said no to a currency union not no to a share of the assets. But as usual the man is incapable of telling us the truth. As voters we deserve better from both sides but FFS Salmond is treating us like fools. This is not about Scotland being bullied its about other political parties saying they will not be AGREEING to a currency union.

[allmodcons]

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By what treaty do the citizens of a newly independent Scotland belong to the EU?

Would seem rather logical that by disassociating with the UK we do exactly the same with the legal agreements the UK currently has....or are we back to pick and choose here?

There is of course nothing saying we won't be welcomed back...but Barroso was merely pointing out that we shouldn't take that for granted.

I don't take any pleasure from this mess...in fact quite the opposite I find it all very depressing.

As for the politics of it all...it would appear almost impossible not to look at the SNP as the main players in the Yes campaign so I'm not sure how anyone can comment on the yes campaigns response without referring to the SNP.

If you want some non partisan information on the EU. This link as posted by someone earlier today. Clearly Barroso was talking nonsense but somehow still managed to make the headlines!

http://www.futureukandscotland.ac.uk...endence-and-eu

[snooky]

A

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Oh I know I won't get any answers. This, as you know, has been my beef from the start.

We are asking people to vote for something that is ill defined and could have significant unintended consequences on their and the nations well being. I don't like that approach and think that there should have been significantly more effort out into clarifying these key points before people were asked to vote...otherwise what,exactly, are we voting for?

Tbh I'm just as much in the dark about what we're voting for whether Yes or No.
God knows what the future will be like under a smug Cameron Cartel if we vote No.

[Bristolhibby]

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Salmond is spinning what has been said yet again. The rUK parties of have said no to a currency union not no to a share of the assets. But as usual the man is incapable of telling us the truth. As voters we deserve better from both sides but FFS Salmond is treating us like fools. This is not about Scotland being bullied its about other political parties saying they will not be AGREEING to a currency union.

So they say. And why would they say anything else?

What they say and what happens are two different things.

It's called negotiations.

A bisinessman goes into negotiations with a supplier, yet we are asking the businessman to tell us before the negotiation what the actual deal will be.

The businessman can only tell us what the deal is he wants. He cannot tell us what deal he makes until the negotiations have taken place.

But we know the supplier will have to make a deal to help his company stay in business .

J

[RyeSloan]

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A Tbh I'm just as much in the dark about what we're voting for whether Yes or No. God knows what the future will be like under a smug Cameron Cartel if we vote No.

Good point, well made!

[gillie]

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Good point, well made!

It will just be the same as the one under salmond if we vote yes only smugger

[One Day Soon]

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So they say. And why would they say anything else?

What they say and what happens are two different things.

It's called negotiations.

A bisinessman goes into negotiations with a supplier, yet we are asking the businessman to tell us before the negotiation what the actual deal will be.

The businessman can only tell us what the deal is he wants. He cannot tell us what deal he makes until the negotiations have taken place.

But we know the supplier will have to make a deal to help his company stay in business .

J

It really isn't.

It's called the reality of what the UK's position will be towards Scotland joining the pound if we separate.

And we aren't asking the 'businessman' to tell us what the deal is he wants, we are just asking him to tell us what the product is he is trying to sell us.

At the moment where the currency is concerned we don't know if that product is a cow, a car or a cat.

As for 'But we know the supplier will have to make a deal to help his company stay in business', I'm sorry but that really is just ludicrous. Are you seriously suggesting that the economic viability of the UK depends upon Scotland joining a pound currency union after separation?

[Just Alf]

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It will just be the same as the one under salmond if we vote yes only smugger

I don't get that?

I'll be voting yes (recent events have pretty much sealed that now ).... But I won't be voting SNP in any elections for the 1st independent government elections!

[One Day Soon]

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I don't get that?

I'll be voting yes (recent events have pretty much sealed that now ).... But I won't be voting SNP in any elections for the 1st independent government elections!

Why's that then?

Not that I think it would matter so much in those circumstances. We would pretty quickly be locked firmly in the boot of the Euro anyway, the outcome of the German elections would be the ones to watch.

[lucky]

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So they say. And why would they say anything else?

What they say and what happens are two different things.

It's called negotiations.

A bisinessman goes into negotiations with a supplier, yet we are asking the businessman to tell us before the negotiation what the actual deal will be.

The businessman can only tell us what the deal is he wants. He cannot tell us what deal he makes until the negotiations have taken place.

But we know the supplier will have to make a deal to help his company stay in business .

J

It's not negotiating, I negotiate every in day in my job. Every time you hope to get more than you give but you always have a bottom line that you won't move on. The unionist and devolutionist parties have said no to a currency union. They are not negotiating but stating they won't do a deal on the currency.

[allmodcons]

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It really isn't.

It's called the reality of what the UK's position will be towards Scotland joining the pound if we separate.

At the moment where the currency is concerned we don't know if that product is a cow, a car or a cat.

This of course is your own individual view on the past weeks events (i.e. - not reality). You'll not be surprised to learn that my view is at odds with yours.

Whilst Osbourne & Balls are saying 'no currency union' now, IMO their position will change in the event of Yes vote from one of political posturing to pragmatism.

If we vote Yes, the currency in an iScotland will be the pound - most probably as part of formal arrangement.

[Just Alf]

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It really isn't.

It's called the reality of what the UK's position will be towards Scotland joining the pound if we separate.

And we aren't asking the 'businessman' to tell us what the deal is he wants, we are just asking him to tell us what the product is he is trying to sell us.

At the moment where the currency is concerned we don't know if that product is a cow, a car or a cat.

As for 'But we know the supplier will have to make a deal to help his company stay in business', I'm sorry but that really is just ludicrous. Are you seriously suggesting that the economic viability of the UK depends upon Scotland joining a pound currency union after separation?

If Salmond is to be believed (he says he used Westminster data?) then Scotland is one of the few countries with which England/rUK has a trading surplus.... Keeping rUK transactional costs with one of its few "profitable" markets as low as possible seems a sensible step.

[Just Alf]

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Why's that then?

Not that I think it would matter so much in those circumstances. We would pretty quickly be locked firmly in the boot of the Euro anyway, the outcome of the German elections would be the ones to watch.

I guess I see a chance to have a new look at what the different parties will come up with.

As an aside I think that the SNP will start to disintegrate after a few years, their reason for existing would have been achieved and their members will start to gravitate towards left and right leaning parties.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I guess I see a chance to have a new look at what the different parties will come up with.

As an aside I think that the SNP will start to disintegrate after a few years, their reason for existing would have been achieved and their members will start to gravitate towards left and right leaning parties.

Nothing surer in my view. The SNP is a disparate group of "isms", all held together by one common cause. As an example, one just needs to look at how many of them (including ministers) voted against gay marriage the other week.

A post-independence Scottish parliament would be a fascinating game, IMO. For one thing, the 71 (?) Westminster MP's would be looking for jobs, which might raise the standard of debate.

[One Day Soon]

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This of course is your own individual view on the past weeks events (i.e. - not reality). You'll not be surprised to learn that my view is at odds with yours.

Whilst Osbourne & Balls are saying 'no currency union' now, IMO their position will change in the event of Yes vote from one of political posturing to pragmatism.

If we vote Yes, the currency in an iScotland will be the pound - most probably as part of formal arrangement.

Pragmatism over what? Giving in to the idea just because Scotland needs to be in the pound? They have no need to be pragmatic.

It isn't in their interest to have us as part of a currency union without the associated political and fiscal relationship needed to give currency union stability. That's the very political and fiscal relationship that Salmond is looking to tear apart. Their balance of payments will stay neutral or improve without Scotland and any transactional costs associated with separate currencies and their imports will just be passed on to Scottish consumers in the same way that every company passes on raised costs to consumers via higher prices.

[One Day Soon]

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If Salmond is to be believed (he says he used Westminster data?) then Scotland is one of the few countries with which England/rUK has a trading surplus.... Keeping rUK transactional costs with one of its few "profitable" markets as low as possible seems a sensible step.

The rest of the UK sends just 10% of its total exports to Scotland. We send 70% of ours to the rest of the UK. It is us who need a pound currency union not the UK. The transactional costs argument is laughable.

The notion that they would tie themselves to a pound currency union with us for the sake of 10% of their exports - while we do whatever we like on borrowing, spending and taxation - is pretty much at the height of Nationalist fantasy.

Jim Sillars, the former SNP Deputy Leader is right, it would have been more honest and more credible if they had opted for a new separate Scottish currency. Huge challenges in that too, but at least something which it would have been within their power to create. What we are being told now about the pound is literally just made up nonsense.

[lucky]

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/alex-ma...osborne-tapes/

Minor Hibs content in this, funny but true.

[Just Alf]

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The rest of the UK sends just 10% of its total exports to Scotland. We send 70% of ours to the rest of the UK. It is us who need a pound currency union not the UK. The transactional costs argument is laughable.

The notion that they would tie themselves to a pound currency union with us for the sake of 10% of their exports - while we do whatever we like on borrowing, spending and taxation - is pretty much at the height of Nationalist fantasy.

Jim Sillars, the former SNP Deputy Leader is right, it would have been more honest and more credible if they had opted for a new separate Scottish currency. Huge challenges in that too, but at least something which it would have been within their power to create. What we are being told now about the pound is literally just made up nonsense.

I'm not going to argue the numbers, AS made the claim based on HMRC data and I've not found where/what it is.

On the laughable bit, I don't agree.
What you are essentially saying is that the rUK will not consider the impact of increased costs on 10% of its exports.
Don't get me wrong, it might be that other factors outweigh the additional costs in a currency separation, but the negative impact still exists.

I will also add that my own preference is for a separate Scottish Pound however not getting one isn't a reason for me not to vote yes. You never know, a party in the new setup might actually take that up as one of their manifesto commitments!

[Just Alf]

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http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/alex-ma...osborne-tapes/

Minor Hibs content in this, funny but true.

I'm glad it's a spoof.... I don't think I could wait THAT long!!!!!

[HiBremian]

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I guess I see a chance to have a new look at what the different parties will come up with.

As an aside I think that the SNP will start to disintegrate after a few years, their reason for existing would have been achieved and their members will start to gravitate towards left and right leaning parties.

A very active SNP member mate of mine has already told me he intends to vote Green in iScotland ;-)


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[NAE NOOKIE]

I'm not going to pretend that I am in any way an expert on econimics or fiscal matters in general. But it seems to me that the statements being made by George Osborne and other politicians regarding the pound over the last few weeks do amount to bullying do they not? Perhaps they are making their statements based on sound political and fiscal judgement and economic reality ...... but I would be willing to put a decent amount of money down at the bookies that the ordinary man in the street aint going to see it that way.

This looks more to me like a case of dare to vote yes and see what you get.

I have voted SNP all my life and make no secret of the fact that for me that decision is as much about the heart as the head. I dont want an independent Scotland because I hate the English, or the Welsh or Irish for that matter. I firmly believe that Scotland is a very different place from the rest of the UK in its outlook on not only social matters but also its outlook on the world. But most of all I believe that a country which is prepared to set aside its sovereignty and therefore its place in the family of nations has no right to refer to itsself as a country at all.

Forget domestic politics. Since 1707 every decision of an international nature affecting Scotland, from going to war to who can and cannot have British andd therefore Scottish citizenship has been made by another country, there are 502 MPs of English constituencies and 52 of Scottish ones .... the natural correlation is that the only time Scotland's politicians have made an international political decision which was the will of the Scottish people was when the political will of the English people ( or at least English MPs ) was in agreement with it.

I dont get this, we wont have an army to speak of if we vote yes. Or we wont be a big player on the international stage. If that means our young men and women being denied the opportunity to get their head blown off in a dubious war in Iraq or an unwinnable war in Afganistan then in what way is that a bad thing? Exactly who is this army supposed to defend us against anyway ... The Russians? I can just see the rest of Europe or the USA standing back .... apart from that the only country we share a land border with is England.

The only serious need we would have in military terms would be a decent set of gunboats to fight off the Spanish fishing fleet if for the sake of their own selfish self interest Spain was to seriuously attempt to block our membership of the EU.

Burns wrote: They were bought and sold for English gold, such a parcel of rogues in a nation. In september will it be They sold their souls for English gold, such a parcel of cowards in a nation.

[Beefster]

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In september will it be They sold their souls for English gold, such a parcel of cowards in a nation.

I hate this type of offensive pish. Claiming that Scots who think we're better within the UK are "cowards" is as ludicrous as claiming that independence supporters are anti-English bigots.

There is derogatory stuff on both sides of the argument but there is definitely a nastier streak running through some of the 'Yes' supporters' rhetoric. I expect that, in the event of a 'No' vote, there is going to be lots of wailing, nastiness and recriminations. It's going to take Scotland a good few years to move on IMHO.

[Stonewall]

Anyone else think the currency debate is probably irrelevant as the EU would make it a condition of entry that we adopt the Euro?

[Beefster]

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Anyone else think the currency debate is probably irrelevant as the EU would make it a condition of entry that we adopt the Euro?

It will be a condition but I think we'd need to meet certain economic criteria first. Presumably we'd need an alternative currency in the meantime.