Scottish Independence

[Glory Lurker]

Barroso's been spouting this line for yonks, but he's never been challenged. He's making an assertion about what will happen, without being taken to task on it. Very much the same situation that BT folk said applied to Salmond until late. Surely the MSM should be asking the sort of questions of him they have of Salmond?:-

- Where's the precedent for the treatment of part of a member state becoming independent?
- What procedure will be used to legally remove EU citizenship from current citizens?
- What procedure will be used to remove the rights of free movement to and from Scotland?
- Where is your legal advice? Will you publish it?

If the answers to these questions boot me in the political guts, well fair enough, but surely they should be asked, rather than Barroso's convenient line being lapped up at face value? Somehow don't expect I should hold my breath, though, and until they are answered then I think Yes is quite right in dismissing them.

[James70]

Hate to say this but the SNP politicians are now becoming as delusional and paranoid as the Hearts supporters.

Everybody has it in for them and all the experts know nothing.

Alex Salmond is rapidly becoming a political laughing stock but he won't care if he wins the referendum.

[Just Alf]

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Hate to say this but the SNP politicians are now becoming as delusional and paranoid as the Hearts supporters.

Everybody has it in for them and all the experts know nothing.

Alex Salmond is rapidly becoming a political laughing stock but he won't care if he wins the referendum.

As someone who's moved from really, really undecided to a probable yes, I totally agree, at the moment they certainly ain't helping themselves. Mind you, that's being pretty much balanced by the bullying I'm feeling from the other side.

Edit: actually not balanced enough, the yes bods need to move up a gear, for me, and start getting a better message out there.

[James70]

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As someone who's moved from really, really undecided to a probable yes, I totally agree, at the moment they certainly ain't helping themselves. Mind you, that's being pretty much balanced by the bullying I'm feeling from the other side.

Edit: actually not balanced enough, the yes bods need to move up a gear, for me, and start getting a better message out there.

But is it really bullying or just simply explaining the facts of life. If there is a YES vote and we are not allowed into the EU and there is no currency union we could be right up the creek without a paddle.
There will be those who vote with their hearts and those who vote with their heads.

[Stonewall]

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As someone who's moved from really, really undecided to a probable yes, I totally agree, at the moment they certainly ain't helping themselves. Mind you, that's being pretty much balanced by the bullying I'm feeling from the other side.

Edit: actually not balanced enough, the yes bods need to move up a gear, for me, and start getting a better message out there.

Maybe Salmond's now got the argument where he wants it and he can feed on anti English/ Scottish establishment sentiments to work on the undecided knowing that everyone else is pretty much entrenched on one side of the fence or the other.

[Just Alf]

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But is it really bullying or just simply explaining the facts of life. If there is a YES vote and we are not allowed into the EU and there is no currency union we could be right up the creek without a paddle.
There will be those who vote with their hearts and those who vote with their heads.

I know where you're coming from, but take the EU element, the Spanish fishing fleet is the 6th biggest in the world and the UK have already paid £55 million in comp when we tried to deny them access to Scottish waters in the 70's

When push comes to shove would Spain really vote to severely curtail one of their key industries?

[Just Alf]

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Maybe Salmond's now got the argument where he wants it and he can feed on anti English/ Scottish establishment to work on the undecided knowing that everyone else is pretty much entrenched on one side of the fence or the other.

Now THAT is a worry, I've never seen this as an English/Scottish thing, fore it's all about whether Scotland would be better served by a directly (locally?) elected government.

To be honest, I think that some of the English regions should also have some sort of devolved government to off set the "London pull"

[allmodcons]

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Ouch.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-26215963

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No surprise really....unless you are Alex Salmond. I wonder what spin he will put on this?

At least now we are getting closer to what independence might actually mean. No pound, no EU....to be honest that makes it much more realistic and maybe more desirable (to me at least!) but the Yes camp have went so far down the 'status quo' route with these things that they are going to look a bit silly if they now start arguing that none of this is of much concern.

If you put your politics to one side, can I ask why you guys (as Scots) take pleasure in a foreign bureaucrat telling us (as EU citizens) that we would not be welcome as EU members if by democratic means we (the Scottish Electorate) vote for an iScotland?

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Hate to say this but the SNP politicians are now becoming as delusional and paranoid as the Hearts supporters.

Everybody has it in for them and all the experts know nothing.

Alex Salmond is rapidly becoming a political laughing stock but he won't care if he wins the referendum.

Which 'experts' are you talking about here - Osbourne, Balls, Alexander & Barroso ?
As to your comments about Salmond being a 'political laughing stock' this says more about you than him.

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Maybe Salmond's now got the argument where he wants it and he can feed on anti English/ Scottish establishment sentiments to work on the undecided knowing that everyone else is pretty much entrenched on one side of the fence or the other.

Difficult one to answer this one. If you're suggesting Salmond is anti English then I'm sorry but you're just talking pish.
If you're suggesting he's anti Westminster, then I apologise for saying you're talking pish.

[allmodcons]

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Barroso's been spouting this line for yonks, but he's never been challenged. He's making an assertion about what will happen, without being taken to task on it. Very much the same situation that BT folk said applied to Salmond until late. Surely the MSM should be asking the sort of questions of him they have of Salmond?:-

- Where's the precedent for the treatment of part of a member state becoming independent?
- What procedure will be used to legally remove EU citizenship from current citizens?
- What procedure will be used to remove the rights of free movement to and from Scotland?
- Where is your legal advice? Will you publish it?

If the answers to these questions boot me in the political guts, well fair enough, but surely they should be asked, rather than Barroso's convenient line being lapped up at face value? Somehow don't expect I should hold my breath, though, and until they are answered then I think Yes is quite right in dismissing them.

A simple set of questions, but too difficult for the BBC.

http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/

[gillie]

I find it hard to believe any of the garbled rubbish coming from either side in this debate none of them care about us minions, nothing will change under home rule, the poor will still be poor there will be no accountability or transparenty from the political party's or msp, the only difference will be you will have Scottish based msps making the same bollocks promises while keeping themselves in a well paid job, the only reason we have the union with England is because our own political leaders at the time squandered all our wealth and where incapable of running our affairs, what's to say it's going to be any different now

[Phil D. Rolls]

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I find it hard to believe any of the garbled rubbish coming from either side in this debate none of them care about us minions, nothing will change under home rule, the poor will still be poor there will be no accountability or transparenty from the political party's or msp, the only difference will be you will have Scottish based msps making the same bollocks promises while keeping themselves in a well paid job, the only reason we have the union with England is because our own political leaders at the time squandered all our wealth and where incapable of running our affairs, what's to say it's going to be any different now

As long as the trains run on time. That's all we ask.

[gillie]

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As long as the trains run on time. That's all we ask.

most of the nasty party followers I've talked With are are claiming that will happen along with full employment honest bankers and council bungalows with gold taps with bells on for all who need them utopia indeed

[Sylar]

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If you put your politics to one side, can I ask why you guys (as Scots) take pleasure in a foreign bureaucrat telling us (as EU citizens) that we would not be welcome as EU members if by democratic means we (the Scottish Electorate) vote for an iScotland?

It alarms me to agree with you but I'm increasingly being taken aback by the sheer glee some Unionists are taking in every single media story that would be considered 'anti-Independence'. Whilst I'm aware it perhaps strengthens some notion of political argument, some of the stuff from the BT campaign (and non-affiliated Unionists) would have you believe we're incapable of wiping our own ***** without them and this is being celebrated as if each negative story is a win.

I found this quite repulsive today in one sense. It raises questions about Salmond's proposals for quick entry into the EU post-Independence, certainly, but the triumphalism that's followed has been quite unpalatable.

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Which 'experts' are you talking about here - Osbourne, Balls, Alexander & Barroso ?
As to your comments about Salmond being a 'political laughing stock' this says more about you than him.

There have been a vast array of legal, economic, political and social experts interviewed over the course of the 'debate' (I use this term very loosely) from a wide representation of Universities, think tanks, companies and government, which the Yes campaign have readily dismissed for one reason or t'other.

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Difficult one to answer this one. If you're suggesting Salmond is anti English then I'm sorry but you're just talking pish.
If you're suggesting he's anti Westminster, then I apologise for saying you're talking pish.

He is anti-Westminster (to say he's anti-English is silly IMO) but then, there are large areas of the country that are anti-Westminster right now. What about the northern areas of England, which, similar to the last Tory government, have been effectively left to their own devices again, without ANY degree of local authority? Whilst our powers in Scotland are limited, we at least have some semblance of control over our affairs - the increasingly impoverished areas of the North East and North West don't have such a luxury and they're every bit as isolated from Westminster.

I guess you consider the last sentence as a key reason why we should be pushing for Independence?

[Phil D. Rolls]

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most of the nasty party followers I've talked With are are claiming that will happen along with full employment honest bankers and council bungalows with gold taps with bells on for all who need them utopia indeed

Jam tomorrow.

[gillie]

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Jam tomorrow.

Not on a Monday

[One Day Soon]

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A simple set of questions, but too difficult for the BBC.

http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/

Wow. 'Seething' is the word that comes to mind after reading some of his blog. Didn't he used to be a minor reporter at the BBC? What happened to him?

He describes the Portuguese President of the EU Commission as having an 'oily smile' for no particularly obvious reason that I can see....

[Beefster]

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If you put your politics to one side, can I ask why you guys (as Scots) take pleasure in a foreign bureaucrat telling us (as EU citizens) that we would not be welcome as EU members if by democratic means we (the Scottish Electorate) vote for an iScotland?

Ah, the old 'not real Scots' comfort blanket? Primarily the reason that I tend to stay out of the debate aside from the odd flurry before it starts again.

I suspect you know that any 'pleasure' is at seeing the SNP's Never Never Land version of independence get shown up for the one-sided fantasy it is.

[Beefster]

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some of the stuff from the BT campaign (and non-affiliated Unionists) would have you believe we're incapable of wiping our own ***** without them and this is being celebrated as if each negative story is a win.

I'm not sure who on here you think is suggesting that Scotland couldn't run its own affairs. I'd wager that most of us who are for the status quo think we could.

As for the 'negative story is a win' comment, the win is SNP promises being demolished. Some of us have been arguing that what is being promised is rubbish for a long time. That's the ultimate aim of political debate.

Aside from that, the story is only negative if you want independence and ever bought into the "it'll be easy" line from the SNP. To everyone else, it is a fact - something the Scottish electorate is in desperate need of.

[RyeSloan]

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Ah, the old 'not real Scots' comfort blanket? Primarily the reason that I tend to stay out of the debate aside from the odd flurry before it starts again.

I suspect you know that any 'pleasure' is at seeing the SNP's Never Never Land version of independence get shown up for the one-sided fantasy it is.

Pretty much sums it up.

[Sylar]

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I'm not sure who on here you think is suggesting that Scotland couldn't run its own affairs. I'd wager that most of us who are for the status quo think we could.

As for the 'negative story is a win' comment, the win is SNP promises being demolished. Some of us have been arguing that what is being promised is rubbish for a long time. That's the ultimate aim of political debate.

Aside from that, the story is only negative if you want independence and ever bought into the "it'll be easy" line from the SNP. To everyone else, it is a fact - something the Scottish electorate is in desperate need of.

I should have stressed that my point wasn't levelled at anyone on here Beefster.

I'm fully on board with your second and third sentences - I think a lot of the stuff being 'promised' is unfeasible hogwash that won't come to fruition and some points suffer from either ill-advised or non-advised supposition or expectancy. That the opposition are going to disagree is part and parcel of the process and the SNP (and the Yes campaign) assume they're going to get everything on their Santa list and all will be rosy in the Garden. However, to my mind, there's not been any debate - the Westminster parties are closing down any avenues for debate, discussion or negotiation and dictating the terms from a heavily self-interested position (as is their want I suppose).

I just don't think the way much of it is being communicated is particularly helpful to anyone.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Must say I'm shocked by the ferocity of the latest No arguments. I think the Phoney War has ended. It will be very interesting where Yes goes next.

It means giving up the conciliatory game that's worked so well up till now. If they do, things get pretty bitter, with name calling.

I think a lot of people are worried about the aftermath of the referendum. The last thing we need is acrimony.

[Stonewall]

Difficult one to answer this one. If you're suggesting Salmond is anti English then I'm sorry but you're just talking pish.
If you're suggesting he's anti Westminster, then I apologise for saying you're talking pish. [/QUOTE]

Don't believe he's anti English for a minute. Just think he'll do anything to win and if that includes stirring up anti English (establishment) feelings then he'll do it. He'll also be very clever about it. Just look at the responses since Osborne's speech.

No pish spouted.

[J-C]

It's a pity that a good honest debate into our future has turned into petty name calling, I honestly think many of believe the SNP will be the party that is in power if the vote is yes. Remember once the yes vote has happened you can if you wish vote for whatever part you want afterwards, the ruling party after the yes vote may not necessarily be the SNP.

[RyeSloan]

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It's a pity that a good honest debate into our future has turned into petty name calling, I honestly think many of believe the SNP will be the party that is in power if the vote is yes. Remember once the yes vote has happened you can if you wish vote for whatever part you want afterwards, the ruling party after the yes vote may not necessarily be the SNP.

But on the flip side the SNP is the face of the Yes campaign so they are naturally being very closely associated with it.

It would appear the SNP are quite happy to descend to name calling. Project Fear and Bullying seem to have been their favourite over the last week or two.

Fact is some of these very fundamental questions should have been resolved long ago...the Yes campaign have continued down the line of just vote Yes them we'll sort it out for ages now, a dangerous tactic that, in my eyes at least, is leaving them looking a bit short of answers just now.

[HiBremian]

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Ouch.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-26215963

This, following Osborne's monetary union comments, and recent comments about a Yes vote not guaranteeing independence, are timed political interventions. Gunboat diplomacy has returned to the debate. Following a Yes vote, the issue for the EU and the UK in all cases will be economic interests. Elected politicians have the mandate that in practice allows flexibility on issues like this.

As for Barroso, he's an establishment fud who is on his way out anyway:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...icrous-remarks


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[McSwanky]

Don't know if this has been posted before, but it seems a fairly pragmatic piece about last week's goings on:

http://www.futureukandscotland.ac.uk...s-legal-issues

I'll be interested to hear what Salmond comes up with today to 'deconstruct' Osborne et al's statement about currency. Hopefully a bit more substance than has recently been coming out of the 'Yes' campaign, but I'm not holding my breath.

[snooky]

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This, following Osborne's monetary union comments, and recent comments about a Yes vote not guaranteeing independence, are timed political interventions. Gunboat diplomacy has returned to the debate. Following a Yes vote, the issue for the EU and the UK in all cases will be economic interests. Elected politicians have the mandate that in practice allows flexibility on issues like this.

As for Barroso, he's an establishment fud who is on his way out anyway:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...icrous-remarks


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Some major barrel scraping going on from politicians of both sides however the NO campaign seem to have longer fingernails

[southsider]

The NO lot has yam (i am an MP) Murray as a poster boy/spokesman. That alone puts me in the YES camp.

[Sylar]

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The NO lot has yam (i am an MP) Murray as a poster boy/spokesman. That alone puts me in the YES camp.

You do know Alex Salmond is a Hearts fan, aye?

Strange criteria to base your politics on.

[allmodcons]

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Ah, the old 'not real Scots' comfort blanket? Primarily the reason that I tend to stay out of the debate aside from the odd flurry before it starts again.

I suspect you know that any 'pleasure' is at seeing the SNP's Never Never Land version of independence get shown up for the one-sided fantasy it is.

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Pretty much sums it up.

Apologies if misunderstood, but not for 1 second was I taking the 'not real Scots' line.

Simply asking why you 'appeared' happy with comments from a foreign bureaucrat telling us (as EU citizens) that we would not be welcome as EU members if by democratic means we (the Scottish Electorate) vote for an iScotland?

FWIW, I did ask you to put 'your politics to one side' when answering my question, but would appear your disdain for the SNP got in the way of your response?