Scottish Independence

[One Day Soon]

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I don't disagree with your general point but the Scottish Government didn't frame the question; the wording was recommended by the Electoral Commission after a question assessment consultation.

That's true. Was it changed substantially from the SNP proposed version, other than to take out the leading "Do you agree.." preference they had gone with?

[One Day Soon]

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Business as usual ODS?

How's it going AMC?

If it's a straightforward agree or disgaree with no ambiguity, how on earth can the question have been framed by the SNP.

Are you saying that an SNP Government cannot be running a Referendum that is unambiguous? I'm not sure what you mean here. In any event I think we can all agree that it is a completely unambiguous question. "Should Scotland be an independent country?"

What is truly cringeworthy is watching Scottish Politicians talking down their own country in an effort to save to their beloved Union. Did you witness Johann Lamont at FMQ's last Thursday? Absolute embarrassment! Talking us down as subsidy junkies when Scotland's net fiscal balance is in a better position than that of the UK. By JL's reckoning it's ok for any country in the world to run a fiscal deficit except Scotland. God help us all if she becomes First Minister.

You ignored my point here. Do you agree that defining Scotland and Scottish things by reference to England is a cringe?

I don't now watch FMQs or the other political programmes because I find they generate virtually no useful information or knowledge whatsoever. But that's beside the point because as I said this Referendum isn't a debate or argument between Johann Lamont and Alex Salmond, it's either a big disagreement or a big agreement between Alex Salmond's SNP and the Scottish people.

However, what is sauce for the goose and all that...I deprecate any politician talking down Scotland - whether they do so to support the Union or to further the case for Independence.

Make no mistake, SNP politicians talk down the current Scotland every chance they get in order to argue that we could do so much better if only we were independent.

Anyway, I'm not sure whether to be depressed about another nine months of this stuff or excited by the prospect that its nearly over.

[One Day Soon]

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He's exactly the type of greedy self serving fat cat that brought us into this union in the first place. If the Scottish people had been consulted in the beginning we would not be having this debate. Nothing has changed and never will until those who make the decision on Scotland's behalf can be held accountable by those who are effected by those decisions.

Does this really have to descend to personal abuse?

[Hibrandenburg]

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Does this really have to descend to personal abuse?

Point taken, I've deleted the post after re-reading it. It looked like I was having a go at you because of a typo, but that certainly wasn't the case. Apologise if you understandably got the wrong end of the stick. I actually meant Lamont.

[Future17]

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That's true. Was it changed substantially from the SNP proposed version, other than to take out the leading "Do you agree.." preference they had gone with?

Not substantially, but it's important to note that the question was essentially framed by "the people", which supports your overall point...just without the anti-Scottish Government slant. :-)

[allmodcons]

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You ignored my point here. Do you agree that defining Scotland and Scottish things by reference to England is a cringe?

I'm good, thanks for asking. Me ignoring your points, never! I do agree that defining Scotland and Scottish things by reference to England is a cringe. That said, I don't think defining things in Scotland by reference to the UK is a cringe, how else would I argue that Scotland is better out of the union than in?


I don't now watch FMQs or the other political programmes because I find they generate virtually no useful information or knowledge whatsoever. But that's beside the point because as I said this Referendum isn't a debate or argument between Johann Lamont and Alex Salmond, it's either a big disagreement or a big agreement between Alex Salmond's SNP and the Scottish people.

Don't agree with this though. The referendum is not all about Alex Salmond and the SNP. Check out the earlier post on this thread by Just Alf.


However, what is sauce for the goose and all that...I deprecate any politician talking down Scotland - whether they do so to support the Union or to further the case for Independence.

Make no mistake, SNP politicians talk down the current Scotland every chance they get in order to argue that we could do so much better if only we were independent.

Here, I think you confuse the talking down of Scotland with the right of politicians to highlight poor (Westminister) goverance and where its has got us as a country. The UK economy is a shambles and, unfortunately, Scotland is part of that shambles. Successive Westminister Governments have had almost 70 years since the end of WWII to address the needs of the Scotland and, judging by what I see on a day to day basis, have failed miserably. I'm not suggesting that Independence is a panacea for all of our problems, but my argument stands that the current system has failed Scotland.


Anyway, I'm not sure whether to be depressed about another nine months of this stuff or excited by the prospect that its nearly over.

If you're depressed, might I suggest you stay away from the main message board. There is so much pish posted there that you might even find yourself agreeing with me!

[yeezus.]

I've been invited to a debate on the referendum on Friday in Dumfries. Can't wait!

[Future17]

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I've been invited to a debate on the referendum on Friday in Dumfries. Can't wait!

Who's hosting?

[One Day Soon]

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Who's hosting?

A Referendum debate in Dumfries on a Friday night.

It would have to be co-hosted by Kylie Minogue, Scarlett Johanson and Nicole Kidman to get me to attend.

TBF that would apply regardless of where it was taking place.

[yeezus.]

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Who's hosting?

Brian Taylor. Got my invite yesterday and the printer broke down

[lord bunberry]

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Brian Taylor. Got my invite yesterday and the printer broke down

I had Brian Taylor in my taxi a couple of months ago, he was a really nice man. I was trying to get his views on the referendum but he was giving nothing away, he's spent far to much time around politicians to give anything away to a novice like me.

[lucky]

Looking like another terrible night night for the SNP. Labour win Motherwell North council by election with 68.1% of the vote and looking likely to win Cowdenbeath with around 55%. Wheels coming of the separatists bandwagon

[Bristolhibby]

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Looking like another terrible night night for the SNP. Labour win Motherwell North council by election with 68.1% of the vote and looking likely to win Cowdenbeath with around 55%. Wheels coming of the separatists bandwagon

A by election in staunch labour heartland.

Proves nothing. Put a goat in a red rosette and it'd get elected.

And despite what he says, that wasn't a vote for Independence, it was a MSP by-election.

J

[allmodcons]

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Looking like another terrible night night for the SNP. Labour win Motherwell North council by election with 68.1% of the vote and looking likely to win Cowdenbeath with around 55%. Wheels coming of the separatists bandwagon

I'm not disputing it was a bad night for the SNP and a good night for Labour, but I wouldn't go getting too excited if I were you. A by election in a safe Labour seat with the SNP 7 years in power at Holyrood? What were you expecting?

A bad night for the SNP, but on reflection not such a bad night for the 'Separatists' - over 11000 voters canvassed and in the process asked how they intended to vote in the independence referendum. The largest percentage said they were going to vote yes. Of the 11727 people who gave their opinion, 41% said yes, 36% said no, and 23% said they were undecided. This in a Labour stronghold.

[Beefster]

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but on reflection not such a bad night for the 'Separatists' - over 11000 voters canvassed and in the process asked how they intended to vote in the independence referendum. The largest percentage said they were going to vote yes. Of the 11727 people who gave their opinion, 41% said yes, 36% said no, and 23% said they were undecided. This in a Labour stronghold.

Who carried out the poll? I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else.

[Lincoln Green]

Just read 35 pages of this thread.

I'll throw in a little aside from an Anglo Scot.

In face to face discussion with my local MP (Labour) I asked her view of Scottish Independence.

Her exact words were...

"Scottish people will not have the confidence and courage to break away."

I found this a very dismissive attitude from a normally very serious and responsive politician.

Generally people here in the Midlands just don't see the referendum as an issue. Nobody seriously considers a 'yes' vote remotely possible.

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[allmodcons]

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Who carried out the poll? I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else.

SNP asked question on every doorstep they canvassed. I'm sure you'll be quick to dismiss findings, but might want to reflect on what SNP canavssing was telling them in the run up to the 2011 Scottish Election, when the only polling company anywhere close to correctly predicting the result was Panelbase (who, despite this, are still commonly portrayed by the pro Union press as SNP biased ).

[One Day Soon]

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I'm not disputing it was a bad night for the SNP and a good night for Labour, but I wouldn't go getting too excited if I were you. A by election in a safe Labour seat with the SNP 7 years in power at Holyrood? What were you expecting?

A bad night for the SNP, but on reflection not such a bad night for the 'Separatists' - over 11000 voters canvassed and in the process asked how they intended to vote in the independence referendum. The largest percentage said they were going to vote yes. Of the 11727 people who gave their opinion, 41% said yes, 36% said no, and 23% said they were undecided. This in a Labour stronghold.

I think the static nature of the opinion polls tells the story on the Referendum. I think the Yes campaign needed to be exceptionally good to have a chance of pulling it off but instead it has been pretty second rate. Not that Better Together have been much good, but then they don't really need to be. Of course I would say all that, but it does at least have the merit of being true.

With the likelihood of a defeat on independence - and probably quite a heavy defeat - it is the post Referendum political scenario that promises most interest in my view. If the SNP have to face a world without Salmond post Referendum - and the gloss is cracked by the result - it becomes a much more open contest.

I was at something Sturgeon spoke at recently and she did well - she's no Salmond though. Perversely I think if Sturgeon becomes leader it cranks up the pressure on all the opposition leaders. No-one really expects any of them to lay a glove on Salmond as he's such a big political beast, but they would be much more harshly judged if they couldn't cut it against Sturgeon.

As an aside I think I saw on another thread a comment about Sturgeon adopting Salmond's irritating speaking style. She's not the only one, Stewart Hosie is always at it too. I think he's quite effective though when he plays it straight and stays above the party politics.

God knows how you keep yourself motivated if you are a Lib/Dem politician.

[allmodcons]

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I think the static nature of the opinion polls tells the story on the Referendum. I think the Yes campaign needed to be exceptionally good to have a chance of pulling it off but instead it has been pretty second rate. Not that Better Together have been much good, but then they don't really need to be. Of course I would say all that, but it does at least have the merit of being true.

With the likelihood of a defeat on independence - and probably quite a heavy defeat - it is the post Referendum political scenario that promises most interest in my view. If the SNP have to face a world without Salmond post Referendum - and the gloss is cracked by the result - it becomes a much more open contest.

I was at something Sturgeon spoke at recently and she did well - she's no Salmond though. Perversely I think if Sturgeon becomes leader it cranks up the pressure on all the opposition leaders. No-one really expects any of them to lay a glove on Salmond as he's such a big political beast, but they would be much more harshly judged if they couldn't cut it against Sturgeon.

As an aside I think I saw on another thread a comment about Sturgeon adopting Salmond's irritating speaking style. She's not the only one, Stewart Hosie is always at it too. I think he's quite effective though when he plays it straight and stays above the party politics.

God knows how you keep yourself motivated if you are a Lib/Dem politician.

This is getting silly, I find myself agreeing with you again!!

In the event of a 'No' vote the next Scottish Election in 2016 could be a good contest. A lot, however, will depend on who is elected at UK level in 2015. As you know, I'm biased, but if the Conservatives win the UK election in 2015, I would expect the SNP (even if I was leader) to clear up in 2016! The only way Labour in Scotland would be able to prevent such a scenario would be to offer the Scottish Electorate something close to full fiscal autonomy.

FWIW, I also agreed that there is far too much 'training' of politicians. I like Salmond, but this making sure you stand correctly with your arm in the correct place (i.e. - just across the stomach) really pisses me off. For me, this stems from the days of Michael Foot, when 'the early spin doctors' became convinced that being clever was less important in order to achieve electoral success than the mannerisms and looks of our politicians.

Imagine being a Lib Dem and a Jambo right now!

[Phil D. Rolls]

Still waiting for Better Together to come up with positive reasons to stay in the Union. This latest salvo over border controls suggests they have no idea how other EU countries, including the UK and Eire, deal with this.

They don't know what they're doing.

[Beefster]

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SNP asked question on every doorstep they canvassed. I'm sure you'll be quick to dismiss findings, but might want to reflect on what SNP canavssing was telling them in the run up to the 2011 Scottish Election, when the only polling company anywhere close to correctly predicting the result was Panelbase (who, despite this, are still commonly portrayed by the pro Union press as SNP biased ).

From about a month before the 2011 election, just about every single polling company was predicting a big SNP victory. Given the way the campaign panned out, I'd wager that the polling was an accurate reflection of the electorate's intention.

You're more than entitled to cling to whatever polling you want, irrespective of how partial or how much of an outlier it is. I just wanted to know if I should take it seriously or not.

[marinello59]

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SNP asked question on every doorstep they canvassed. I'm sure you'll be quick to dismiss findings, but might want to reflect on what SNP canavssing was telling them in the run up to the 2011 Scottish Election, when the only polling company anywhere close to correctly predicting the result was Panelbase (who, despite this, are still commonly portrayed by the pro Union press as SNP biased ).

Didn't all the polls point to an SNP victory? The chances of an outright majority were dismissed by political pundits but that's different from the polls being wrong.

[HiBremian]

http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index...academic-study

An interesting study of broadcast news coverage of the referendum just been published. Surprise, surprise, little or no coverage of it in the mainstream media.


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[marinello59]

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http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index...academic-study

An interesting study of broadcast news coverage of the referendum just been published. Surprise, surprise, little or no coverage of it in the mainstream media.


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I will be voting YES.
But all this pathetic getting the excuses in early cr@p does my head in. If the Yes campaign are not getting their message out properly then they need to try harder instead of wasting their energy bleating about how unfair things are. It turns people off and changes nothing.

[HiBremian]

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I will be voting YES.
But all this pathetic getting the excuses in early cr@p does my head in. If the Yes campaign are not getting their message out properly then they need to try harder instead of wasting their energy bleating about how unfair things are. It turns people off and changes nothing.

To be fair, I don't think the "Yes campaign" has done anything with this study for the very reasons you cite. And I'm not a "YES campaigner", couldn't be if I live abroad. Posting this has nowt to do with excuses or bleating. It's an interesting study, that stands alongside similar studies carried out since the 1970's by the Glasgow Media Group, covering how broadcasters deal with a wide range of issues, not just independence. I used to teach trades unionists about exactly the same bias that was used against them. And we always said the way to deal with the bias was not to bleat, but get out there and try to find journalists who will listen to the other side. Doesn't deny the importance of these studies - TV pundits like Brian Taylor like to think that they are unbiased, so it does them good to look more closely at their output.


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[marinello59]

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To be fair, I don't think the "Yes campaign" has done anything with this study for the very reasons you cite. And I'm not a "YES campaigner", couldn't be if I live abroad. Posting this has nowt to do with excuses or bleating. It's an interesting study, that stands alongside similar studies carried out since the 1970's by the Glasgow Media Group, covering how broadcasters deal with a wide range of issues, not just independence. I used to teach trades unionists about exactly the same bias that was used against them. And we always said the way to deal with the bias was not to bleat, but get out there and try to find journalists who will listen to the other side. Doesn't deny the importance of these studies - TV pundits like Brian Taylor like to think that they are unbiased, so it does them good to look more closely at their output.


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Fair points.

[allmodcons]

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From about a month before the 2011 election, just about every single polling company was predicting a big SNP victory. Given the way the campaign panned out, I'd wager that the polling was an accurate reflection of the electorate's intention.

You're more than entitled to cling to whatever polling you want, irrespective of how partial or how much of an outlier it is. I just wanted to know if I should take it seriously or not.

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Didn't all the polls point to an SNP victory? The chances of an outright majority were dismissed by political pundits but that's different from the polls being wrong.

In March 2011, less than 2 months before the 2011 Scottish Election, the opinion polls had Labour on a double digit lead. We're still 8 months away from the Independence vote and IMO the result will be a lot closer than the polls are currently predicting.

Just so that you know Beefster, I'm not 'clinging' anything, simply highlighting what the SNP found whilst canvassing in Cowdenbeath. Your patronising tone always assumes me though.

[steakbake]

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Still waiting for Better Together to come up with positive reasons to stay in the Union. This latest salvo over border controls suggests they have no idea how other EU countries, including the UK and Eire, deal with this.

They don't know what they're doing.

Every time I fly to London for work, I take my passport for ID for the airline/checking in.

Anytime I've crossed a land border on the mainland in the past few years - which I've done a decent number of times - I've never had to show my ID.

Funnily enough in the independence debate, the former is suddenly a massive problem and the latter would suddenly not apply.

Better Together like to invent problems that are simply not found elsewhere or are uniquely insurmountable in our apparently advanced part of the world.

[allmodcons]

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Every time I fly to London for work, I take my passport for ID for the airline/checking in.

Anytime I've crossed a land border on the mainland in the past few years - which I've done a decent number of times - I've never had to show my ID.

Funnily enough in the independence debate, the former is suddenly a massive problem and the latter would suddenly not apply.

Better Together like to invent problems that are simply not found elsewhere or are uniquely insurmountable in our apparently advanced part of the world.

Fear and confusion are part and parcel of the BT campaign.

[Beefster]

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In March 2011, less than 2 months before the 2011 Scottish Election, the opinion polls had Labour on a double digit lead. We're still 8 months away from the Independence vote and IMO the result will be a lot closer than the polls are currently predicting.

Just so that you know Beefster, I'm not 'clinging' anything, simply highlighting what the SNP found whilst canvassing in Cowdenbeath. Your patronising tone always assumes me though.

Apologies if I was patronising. The SNP 'poll' is rubbish though and wouldn't stand up to the slightest bit of scrutiny.

The fact that polling had Labour in the lead way before the election just reflects the fact that the electorate moved to the SNP as the election approached. It doesn't mean that the polling was wrong.

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Fear and confusion are part and parcel of the BT campaign.

Fear and confusion are part and parcel of both sides' campaigns. It's one of the reasons why the entire saga hasn't been worthy of the issue. IMHO the quality of the debate hasn't moved on from the initial flurry of "Aye, it will" "No, it won't" mince we got in the early days.