Scottish Independence

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Does anyone honestly think that the MOD for the rest of the UK will award any contracts to an independant Scotland when it has facilities to do this work in it's own country....NEVER and rightly so.

These jobs will always be a political football, moved around to suit the vagaries of whoever is in power at Westminster. I think it's time our jobs stopped being a political football.

If the MOD can get work done in Malta, why not Scotland as a Commonwealth partner? Surely they are bound to get the best deal for the English taxpayer?

Classic British government - divide and rule.

[green glory]

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[green glory]

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Where did people get the idea that their rented home is their's for life. Even more, where did they get the idea that they should have extra space in their houses subsidised?

So what's your solution for where to put all these disabled and elderly people who are so selfishly taking up too much space. Bearing in mind there aren't enough single bedroom properties to move them to?

[Phil D. Rolls]

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So what's your solution for where to put all these disabled and elderly people who are so selfishly taking up too much space. Bearing in mind there aren't enough single bedroom properties to move them to?

Allocate housing according to people's current needs, not their needs 15 years ago. It's what town councils used to do. Is it fair for teenage kids of the opposite sex to be sharing bedrooms?

[Jack]

In an effort to get an agreement on this bedroom malarkey can I suggest the way this reform has been considered and implemented has been an absolute shocker?

Maybe if there was already an expectation for people in social housing to move around to better suit their own needs and that of society this current furore wouldn't have happened.

For such a thing to happen however the changes would have needed to be brought in gradually to give people time to get their heads round it and all the anomalies ironed out. Probably longer than a single term in office which is why politicians canny deal with it either humanely or effectively.

I don't really see what this has to do with independence though as its just a typical clash between political parties and I'd expect similar to happen in the future, independence or not.

[yeezus.]

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In an effort to get an agreement on this bedroom malarkey can I suggest the way this reform has been considered and implemented has been an absolute shocker?

Maybe if there was already an expectation for people in social housing to move around to better suit their own needs and that of society this current furore wouldn't have happened.

For such a thing to happen however the changes would have needed to be brought in gradually to give people time to get their heads round it and all the anomalies ironed out. Probably longer than a single term in office which is why politicians canny deal with it either humanely or effectively.

I don't really see what this has to do with independence though as its just a typical clash between political parties and I'd expect similar to happen in the future, independence or not.

I agree that the measure is wrong but I'm sure it was mentioned on a Yes campaign leaflet that came through my door - blaming another apparent injustice against Scots by the big bad politicians in London.

[RyeSloan]

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In an effort to get an agreement on this bedroom malarkey can I suggest the way this reform has been considered and implemented has been an absolute shocker? Maybe if there was already an expectation for people in social housing to move around to better suit their own needs and that of society this current furore wouldn't have happened. For such a thing to happen however the changes would have needed to be brought in gradually to give people time to get their heads round it and all the anomalies ironed out. Probably longer than a single term in office which is why politicians canny deal with it either humanely or effectively. I don't really see what this has to do with independence though as its just a typical clash between political parties and I'd expect similar to happen in the future, independence or not.

Not entirely sure what it's got to do with independence barring the fact it's a Westminster policy...there is of course nothing to say such a policy, or another equally controversial, would not be applied by a fully independent Scottish parliament.

As for the policy itself I agree...the principal if using public sector rented accommodation as effectively as possible is surely a sound one, the approach taken here which is effectively a stick with no carrot and for a lot of people no option but to get beaten by that stick even if they wanted to move (which they can't as the housing stock is not there to facilitate all the required movements) is surely a flawed one.

It is a classic case though that shows just how difficult benefit reform is. Once a benefit is provided it's extremely difficult to reform it without a significant number of people being impacted. Those impacted will therefore fight hard to retain that benefit. In the meantime government spending continues to substantially outstrip receipts and the national debt continues to grow.

I see recently that the rate of growth in spending is finally starting to drop under the rate of growth of tax receipts but there is such a long way to go it seems almost impossible that in the current environment any government of any colour actually has the ability or political will to sort out this mess.

[Glory Lurker]

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I agree that the measure is wrong but I'm sure it was mentioned on a Yes campaign leaflet that came through my door - blaming another apparent injustice against Scots by the big bad politicians in London.

Bringing this back on topic, presumably then you are happy that the government in London is only overwhelmingly rejected by the Scottish electorate most of the time, and not all of it?

[yeezus.]

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Bringing this back on topic, presumably then you are happy that the government in London is only overwhelmingly rejected by the Scottish electorate most of the time, and not all of it?

No I'm not happy about that, but it's not like we overwhelmingly endorse the SNP, Labour are by far the biggest party in Scotland when it comes to UK elections.

[Glory Lurker]

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No I'm not happy about that, but it's not like we overwhelmingly endorse the SNP, Labour are by far the biggest party in Scotland when it comes to UK elections.

But that's exactly my point. We never vote Tory (and barely vote LibDem (and what vote they had up to 2010 seems to have evaporated)), but more often than not, that's who we get at Westminster. A "no" vote guarantees that continues.

[marinello59]

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But that's exactly my point. We never vote Tory (and barely vote LibDem (and what vote they had up to 2010 seems to have evaporated)), but more often than not, that's who we get at Westminster. A "no" vote guarantees that continues.

Scotland voted Tory until the mid sixties when Labour became the majority party. How many years of Blair and co did we get again? The SNP's North East heartlands were rock solid Tory until the rise of the SNP and there is a fair chance they will be again if we vote for independence and the SNP become redundant. The Tory 'brand' will also be much less toxic when they are a completely Scottish party.
Voting yes simply because you don't like the Tories is as illogical as voting no because you don't like Salmond

[yeezus.]

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But that's exactly my point. We never vote Tory (and barely vote LibDem (and what vote they had up to 2010 seems to have evaporated)), but more often than not, that's who we get at Westminster. A "no" vote guarantees that continues.

Very good point. I'm struggling to see any positivity from Better Together to be honest!

[Glory Lurker]

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Scotland voted Tory until the mid sixties when Labour became the majority party. How many years of Blair and co did we get again? The SNP's North East heartlands were rock solid Tory until the rise of the SNP and there is a fair chance they will be again if we vote for independence and the SNP become redundant. The Tory 'brand' will also be much less toxic when they are a completely Scottish party.
Voting yes simply because you don't like the Tories is as illogical as voting no because you don't like Salmond

I'm not saying vote yes to avoid ever having a right-wing government. I'm saying vote yes so that Scotland gets what it votes for.

[yeezus.]

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I'm not saying vote yes to avoid ever having a right-wing government. I'm saying vote yes so that Scotland gets what it votes for.

Do you think the Scottish parliament works well within the UK? What annoys me is Scottish Labour are yet to come up with a grand alternative to independence.

[marinello59]

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I'm not saying vote yes to avoid ever having a right-wing government. I'm saying vote yes so that Scotland gets what it votes for.

Like the 13 years of New Labour?

[Glory Lurker]

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Do you think the Scottish parliament works well within the UK? What annoys me is Scottish Labour are yet to come up with a grand alternative to independence.

I'm probably too biased to answer that question impartially! I campaigned for it and was over the moon when we got it, but I have always seen it as a stepping stone to independence, a way of proving to ourselves that we can actually hold the levers of power.

[Glory Lurker]

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Like the 13 years of New Labour?

No arguing with that. Just under half the time, we get who we vote for. I personally don't think that's good enough, however.

[yeezus.]

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I'm probably too biased to answer that question impartially! I campaigned for it and was over the moon when we got it, but I have always seen it as a stepping stone to independence, a way of proving to ourselves that we can actually hold the levers of power.

Fair enough. However I guess a lot of people in the "no" camp would say we know Scotland can manage on it's own but we would rather not see England, Wales and NI foreign countries? I'm not impartial either. I'm a member of a party as well!

[marinello59]

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No arguing with that. Just under half the time, we get who we vote for. I personally don't think that's good enough, however.

When we have an independent Scotland ruled by a Labour party voted in by the central belt do you think the mainly Lib-Dem voting Scottish Islands should push for Independence so they get the Government they voted for too?

[Glory Lurker]

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When we have an independent Scotland ruled by a Labour party voted in by the central belt do you think the mainly Lib-Dem voting Scottish Islands should push for Independence so they get the Government they voted for too?

Nice try! They're not a signatory to any union with the rest of Scotland, so I don't see a parallel at all here. As it happens, though, I do support devolution as a concept, and Shetland in particular would seem a good candidate for additional powers. That would be up to them.

[marinello59]

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Nice try! They're not a signatory to any union with the rest of Scotland, so I don't see a parallel at all here. As it happens, though, I do support devolution as a concept, and Shetland in particular would seem a good candidate for additional powers. That would be up to them.

The Northern Isles will probably vote No to independence. Maybe they could simply remain as part of the UK whilst the rest of Scotland goes it alone.

[Glory Lurker]

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Fair enough. However I guess a lot of people in the "no" camp would say we know Scotland can manage on it's own but we would rather not see England, Wales and NI foreign countries? I'm not impartial either. I'm a member of a party as well!

I don't get this big "foreign" thing. It does seem to be a pre-occupation with the no campaign, and a bizzare one at that given that a lot of the talking heads for your side are Labour people who are supposed to be inclusive folk. What's wrong with foreigners? All we'd be doing would be doing things our way as a political unit. I genuinely do not see any social barriers.

[Glory Lurker]

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The Northern Isles will probably vote No to independence. Maybe they could simply remain as part of the UK whilst the rest of Scotland goes it alone.

First, not sure what you're basing your prediction on. Second, you could apply that argument to any constituency, town, street, house or bedroom that voted one way or the other. Third, you are talking about partition. Fourth, I am taking all this too seriously! Fifth, I'm off to have a beer.

Thanks for the joust!

[Beefster]

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No arguing with that. Just under half the time, we get who we vote for. I personally don't think that's good enough, however.

The same applies to any particular area of five million or so within the UK. It's a UK election and the UK gets what it votes for.

What happens in an independent Scotland when Shetland votes for a Lib Dem MSP and never get a Lib Dem government? Presumably, they should vote for independence from Scotland so that they can get what they vote for?

Incidentally, East Lothian gets exactly what it votes for in the UK General Election - a Labour MP.

[steakbake]

Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath voted for a Labour MP and ended up with one of the most part time representatives there's been - even recently denying to an audience that he's a politician before someone reminded him he's a member of parliament.

He's on full time expenses though.

PS: not having a go at Labour with that, just can't stand Gordon Brown.

[yeezus.]

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Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath voted for a Labour MP and ended up with one of the most part time representatives there's been - even recently denying to an audience that he's a politician before someone reminded him he's a member of parliament.

He's on full time expenses though.

PS: not having a go at Labour with that, just can't stand Gordon Brown.

I expected Brown to have a bigger part in the pro-union campaign to be honest, not herd much since his speech in Edinburgh.

[steakbake]

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I expected Brown to have a bigger part in the pro-union campaign to be honest, not herd much since his speech in Edinburgh.

I'm sure he'll contribute in some way, but I reckon Brown is a lot more toxic than some folk in the Scottish political firmament are willing to agree that he is.

[Beefster]

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I expected Brown to have a bigger part in the pro-union campaign to be honest, not herd much since his speech in Edinburgh.

Brown's like political arsenic. He's better well away from the campaign.

[Glory Lurker]

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The same applies to any particular area of five million or so within the UK. It's a UK election and the UK gets what it votes for.

What happens in an independent Scotland when Shetland votes for a Lib Dem MSP and never get a Lib Dem government? Presumably, they should vote for independence from Scotland so that they can get what they vote for?

Incidentally, East Lothian gets exactly what it votes for in the UK General Election - a Labour MP.

Scotland cannot be compared to any other particular area of five million people. Scotland is a constituent part of the UK, a political unit. It entered as a functioning state and can leave as one. Among lots of other reasons, I think it should leave to ensure that - as a political unit - it gets the government it actually elects.
I'm a bit lost with your Shetland example (although I know why you've chosen it - happy to get in to that barney if you want ). Their Lib Dem MSP has featured in half of the Holyrood governments so far. Until the coalition at Westminster, their Lib Dem/ LibSDP/ Liberal MP has been no closer to power than possibly standing beside the PM in a lobby toilet (although presumably not Mrs T).

[marinello59]

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First, not sure what you're basing your prediction on. Second, you could apply that argument to any constituency, town, street, house or bedroom that voted one way or the other. Third, you are talking about partition. Fourth, I am taking all this too seriously! Fifth, I'm off to have a beer.

Thanks for the joust!

My prediction would be based on the fact that both Orkney and Shetland gave a massive No in the 1979 referendum. I don't think their views will have changed all that much. I am fairly sure that consider themselves more Shetlander / Orcadian than Scots. Maybe somebody from up there could let us know the score on that one.
Wasn't there an opt out for the Northern Isles in the 1978 Scotland act allowing them to continue being governed from Westminster in the event of a devolved Parliament? (I might have imagined that. )