Scottish Independence

[yeezus.]

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How do we start a poll on the subject? It would be interesting if nothing else.

I think there was one on a previous Scottish independence thread (possibly Beefster would know for sure). I'm looking forward to the Scottish government's white paper and hope we can put a few issues to bed.

[PeeJay]

New Asterix book out today, apparently Asterix is a strong supporter of the case for Scottish Independence, seems he is also a Hibs fan!

[Jack]

Anyone, on either side or even the undecided, care to comment on the McCrone Report?

The McCrone Report - A Thirty Year Secret

[Hibrandenburg]

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Anyone, on either side or even the undecided, care to comment on the McCrone Report?

The McCrone Report - A Thirty Year Secret

Consecutive Labour and Tory governments have lied to the Scottish people long before that report was made and have been lying to us since it was made public.

What surprises me most about this is that some folks still don't believe it or are surprised by it.

[IndieHibby]

1. Lying *******s.
2. Always knew they were lying *******s anyway
3. Much of the report explains why an economically sovereign Scotland would find it hard to devalue enough to make a dent in unemployment etc.
4. Scotland is economically and socially highly networked with the rest of the UK and would therefore still be affected by policy decisions made in London, but with no mandate on those decisions.

[VickMackie]

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Anyone, on either side or even the undecided, care to comment on the McCrone Report?

The McCrone Report - A Thirty Year Secret

Thanks for this.


This is the thing for me. I expect this same arguement to stand. Any ideas where we'd stand in international law on splitting based on population. It does go on to state that the EEC laws signed up to (have they changed) would give us the oil.

If we do vote Yes then its clear they're going to shaft Scotland and keep as much as possible.

Two possible lines of argument may be expected: either that Scotland should pay England some compensation for appropriating the most productive part of the Continental Shelf, or that the whole shelf should be regarded as the common property of the nations of the former United Kingdom with revenue distributed in accordance with some population based formula irrespective of where oil is discovered.

As regards the first of the arguments, the prospective return from oil revenue would at the very least be one of the factors taken in to account in determining the financial settlement between the two countries when they become independent. To argue the second would be directly counter to the line that the UK Government has taken with the EEC, that the resources of the Continental Shelf are as much a national asset as are those on land, like coal mines, and that there is therefore no question of the Europeanisation of North Sea oil.

Disputes on these matters might well occasion much bitterness between the two countries, but it is hard to see any conclusion other than to allow Scotland to have that part of the Continental Shelf which would have been hers if she had been independent all along.
There might be some argument about where the boundary between English and Scottish waters would lie. At present this is considered to be along the line of latitude which lies just north of Berwick on Tweed, and it might perhaps be held that it should run NE/SW as an extension of the Border. This could have the effect of transferring the small oilfields in the south, Auk and Argyll, to the English sector, but would not affect the main finds.

This is utterly amazing. SNP said 800m and the government had said 100m. It then goes on to say it would be anythink between 2,000 and 5,000m.

Thus, all that is wrong now with the SNP estimate is that it is far too low; there is a prospect of Government oil revenues in 1980 which could greatly exceed the present Government revenue in Scotland from all sources and could even be comparable in size to the whole of the Scottish national income in 1970.

I've not made up my mind on independance but a lot of what I've read, albeit only the first few pages, is still relevant today.

[lucky]

I'm voting no but for change, we can have the best of both worlds by further devolution. What's being offered by the SNP is independence by opinion poll. They have changed their policies so much on the Queen, currency, NATO to name a few, just to try and con voters.

[Hibrandenburg]

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I'm voting no but for change, we can have the best of both worlds by further devolution. What's being offered by the SNP is independence by opinion poll. They have changed their policies so much on the Queen, currency, NATO to name a few, just to try and con voters.

But isn't that satisfying voters demands and pretty much the whole basis of democracy?

[southfieldhibby]

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I'm voting no but for change, we can have the best of both worlds by further devolution. What's being offered by the SNP is independence by opinion poll. They have changed their policies so much on the Queen, currency, NATO to name a few, just to try and con voters.

Two things.

I'm voting YES for Scotland, not The SNP.Scotland will be around a whole lot longer than any political party

Further Devlotion (Devo Max) won't happen.Infact, the seeds of reducing devolution have already been planted.Westminster will scale back the powers of Holyrood post NO vote, they'll ensure we never have the opportunity at independence again.

[HarpyHibby]

They hid the McCrone report last time around, what are they hiding this time?

Think it's time for another poll on here, I'll post one just now. It will be good to compare with the previous one to see if there has been a swing either way.

[HarpyHibby]

No need for any debate on this thread, there's another thread for that! It's been a while since the last poll on here and I'd be interested to see if there has been a swing either way.

[southfieldhibby]

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They hid the McCrone report last time around, what are they hiding this time?

The triple-the-size oil/gas field in the west coast that they keep untapped so nuclear submarines can scurry about, unhindered?

[green glory]

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I'm voting no but for change, we can have the best of both worlds by further devolution. What's being offered by the SNP is independence by opinion poll. They have changed their policies so much on the Queen, currency, NATO to name a few, just to try and con voters.

I hope you can live with the 80,000 people, 64,000 of which are disabled who are being pushed into rent arrears and ultimately eviction because of the bedroom tax. This is being caused by the UK government, but it will be the first act of our newly independent parliament to abolish it. Well worth voting yes for I would say.

But many will vote no, because the above doesn't affect them. I actually have some very middle class in-laws who simply can't digest the unpleasant truths about the past conduct of and continuing incompetence of the Westminster government. As long as they're ok.

Over 100,000 dead in Iraq. Obsolete and dangerous nuclear weapons on the Clyde, which according to the MOD's own words, couldn't be based at Plymouth because of the risk to the 200,000 or so residents nearby. The 600,000 plus of Glasgow and the surrounding areas however are expendable. The submarines are now leaking radiation with alarming frequency too.

Military cuts in Scotland have proceeded at over 2.5 times that of the UK in the last 13 years. Soon to be 1 airfield, and no major surface vessels based in Scotland now for a very very long time. The assets are being moved. In short Independence is now expected by the MOD.

The 40 years and hundreds of billions from the north sea, from which Scotland has only benefitted piecemeal, as capital project after capital project in London and the south east is bankrolled by our natural resources.

Scotland has the highest GDP of any constituent part of the UK with the exception of London. Scotch Whisky alone in monetary terms accounts for 25% of the entire UK's food and drink exports.

We have the infrastructure, we have the money and we have the expertise. It's how we use them that's important.

[green glory]

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I'm voting no but for change, we can have the best of both worlds by further devolution. What's being offered by the SNP is independence by opinion poll. They have changed their policies so much on the Queen, currency, NATO to name a few, just to try and con voters.

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php...iction-letters

[marinello59]

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Two things.

I'm voting YES for Scotland, not The SNP.Scotland will be around a whole lot longer than any political party

Further Devlotion (Devo Max) won't happen.Infact, the seeds of reducing devolution have already been planted.Westminster will scale back the powers of Holyrood post NO vote, they'll ensure we never have the opportunity at independence again.

Westminster will scale back devolution? Yet it was announced yesterday that the Welsh parliament is to be offered more powers?

[Beefster]

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Further Devlotion (Devo Max) won't happen.Infact, the seeds of reducing devolution have already been planted.Westminster will scale back the powers of Holyrood post NO vote, they'll ensure we never have the opportunity at independence again.

Evidence please?

The 'debate' leading up to the referendum is going to do far more damage to Scotland than whatever the result eventually turns out to be. Lies, lies and more untruths on both sides. Part of the reason why a large proportion of the population isn't listening any more.

[southfieldhibby]

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Evidence please?

The 'debate' leading up to the referendum is going to do far more damage to Scotland than whatever the result eventually turns out to be. Lies, lies and more untruths on both sides. Part of the reason why a large proportion of the population isn't listening any more.

As I said, seeds.Call me a liar all you like and ask for evidence, but be gracious enough to retract when provided with said evidence.Unless you can disprove any of the following links?

http://wingsoverscotland.com/in-out-...-it-all-about/

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/...cle1296301.ece

http://www.scotsman.com/news/michael...vote-1-3034293

[southfieldhibby]

Incidentally, the best debate, from both sides, I've seen on the whole internet is on jamboskickback, think its 95 pages long now so quite a slog, but can be picked up anywhere.

[Beefster]

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As I said, seeds.Call me a liar all you like and ask for evidence, but be gracious enough to retract when provided with said evidence.Unless you can disprove any of the following links?

http://wingsoverscotland.com/in-out-...-it-all-about/

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/...cle1296301.ece

http://www.scotsman.com/news/michael...vote-1-3034293

You said "Westminster will scale back the powers of Holyrood post NO vote, they'll ensure we never have the opportunity at independence again.". No "In my opinion" or "it's possible that", you definitively stated "will".

None of the links are evidence that Westminster WILL scale back the powers of Holyrood in the event of a 'no' vote. One's some random's musing from the looks of it, one's from an eighty-one year old who retired from politics in 2005 and the other appears to be a columnist from the Scotsman.

[marinello59]

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As I said, seeds.Call me a liar all you like and ask for evidence, but be gracious enough to retract when provided with said evidence.Unless you can disprove any of the following links?

http://wingsoverscotland.com/in-out-...-it-all-about/

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/...cle1296301.ece

http://www.scotsman.com/news/michael...vote-1-3034293

And how does Westminster offering the devolved Welsh administration more powers fit in with your 'proof'? Or are you just ignoring that?
I am all for honest debate, simply making stuff up just turns people off.

[Hibrandenburg]

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And how does Westminster offering the devolved Welsh administration more powers fit in with your 'proof'? Or are you just ignoring that?
I am all for honest debate, simply making stuff up just turns people off.

All that stuff that the government made up and forgot to report certainly kept the turnout down back at the last vote.

[Future17]

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All that stuff that the Thatcher government made up and forgot to report certainly kept the turnout down back at the last vote.

[Hibrandenburg]

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In 1979 a vote was held on devolution during the Callaghan administration. The government at the time had access to a report commissioned by the Labour government that unequivocally proved that an independent Scotland would be financially much better off than a Scotland within the Union.

If the government at that time had come clean and made the report public instead of hiding it away and actually claiming the opposite of what the report showed then the outcome of the vote would have been very different. Or put in simple terms-WE WERE CONNED!

[Beefster]

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All that stuff that the Thatcher government made up and forgot to report certainly kept the turnout down back at the last vote.

If you're talking about the referendum on Scottish devolution in 1979, James Callaghan was the Labour Prime Minister at the time and Labour had been in power for five years.

[Hibrandenburg]

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If you're talking about the referendum on Scottish devolution in 1979, James Callaghan was the Labour Prime Minister at the time and Labour had been in power for five years.

I stand corrected, your right it was the vote to repeal that took place shortly afterwards under Thatcher.

Bit early for me but the points still stand, WE WUZ ROBBED.

[marinello59]

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All that stuff that the government made up and forgot to report certainly kept the turnout down back at the last vote.

You are missing the point I was actually making but we turned up in large enough numbers in '97
As it looks like you actually meant '79 then that vote was scuppered by the ridiculous 40% rule more than anything else.

[yeezus.]

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I hope you can live with the 80,000 people, 64,000 of which are disabled who are being pushed into rent arrears and ultimately eviction because of the bedroom tax. This is being caused by the UK government, but it will be the first act of our newly independent parliament to abolish it. Well worth voting yes for I would say.

But many will vote no, because the above doesn't affect them. I actually have some very middle class in-laws who simply can't digest the unpleasant truths about the past conduct of and continuing incompetence of the Westminster government. As long as they're ok.

Over 100,000 dead in Iraq. Obsolete and dangerous nuclear weapons on the Clyde, which according to the MOD's own words, couldn't be based at Plymouth because of the risk to the 200,000 or so residents nearby. The 600,000 plus of Glasgow and the surrounding areas however are expendable. The submarines are now leaking radiation with alarming frequency too.

Military cuts in Scotland have proceeded at over 2.5 times that of the UK in the last 13 years. Soon to be 1 airfield, and no major surface vessels based in Scotland now for a very very long time. The assets are being moved. In short Independence is now expected by the MOD.

The 40 years and hundreds of billions from the north sea, from which Scotland has only benefitted piecemeal, as capital project after capital project in London and the south east is bankrolled by our natural resources.

Scotland has the highest GDP of any constituent part of the UK with the exception of London. Scotch Whisky alone in monetary terms accounts for 25% of the entire UK's food and drink exports.

We have the infrastructure, we have the money and we have the expertise. It's how we use them that's important.

Like it or not, the "Bedroom tax" isn't a tax at all, it's a reduction in benefits to those with a spare room.

[VickMackie]

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Like it or not, the "Bedroom tax" isn't a tax at all, it's a reduction in benefits to those with a spare room.

Is there sufficient housing capacity to move all of those with a spare room?

[Peevemor]

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Is there sufficient housing capacity to move all of those with a spare room?

Nowhere near it.

[thefifer1959]

Labour, tory's lib-dems. not much to pick from any one of those lot heading the Scottish parliament just means we still getting controlled from England, before they can pass any legislation it has to be sent down south to their masters to get approval. why do you think that no one from the parties in question said to the SNP well done on gaining the majority in Scotland, they all found out that they couldn't dictate what we can do or cannot do. so my vote next year is a big resounding YES.

also the money That Scotland sends down south is a lot more than the 32bil we get back.

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I'm a lifelong Labour voter, but, having heard the crap coming out of the Tories this week, I am seriously considering voting 'Yes' in the referendum if that is going to be the future.
I'd be interested to hear other's thoughts.