Share Transfers Agreed/Cooling off period

[grunt]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I would be checking the small print on everything tbh, from the poppies to the steps painting to the title deeds for tynecastle

Everything which was set up by Romanov (in the way of contracts) will have been ended with administration. Anyone buying the club now will buy it from the administrators, with no burden carried forward from pre admin times. I find it difficult to see what diligence is due.

[jgl07]

Have I missed something. With all this talk about FOH's offer being accepted or not, I thought that the assets of UBIG were still frozen?

Hence the only way that FOH could get their hands on any of Hearts' assets would be after liquidation.

[Sanger]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'm told the FOH are still conducting due diligence,




If it's referring to UKIO then no, they shouldn't have.

normally due dilligence carried before formal submission off a bid is made. So no formal offer yet? I thought was their offer document.

Referring to UBIG

[Dr What If?]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Have I missed something. With all this talk about FOH's offer being accepted or not, I thought that the assets of UBIG were still frozen?

Hence the only way that FOH could get their hands on any of Hearts' assets would be after liquidation.

This point seems to be completely forgotten, while the assets are frozen, no one can buy them. The real danger for Hearts is they can only remain in administration for one year, after that the administrators have no option but to wind the company up. I have no idea how long the legal proceedings in Lithuania are likely to take but if its anything like in Scotland I would say it does not look good if you want a Heart of Midlothian Football Club kicking around for the start of season 2014/15.

[#FromTheCapital]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

This point seems to be completely forgotten, while the assets are frozen, no one can buy them. The real danger for Hearts is they can only remain in administration for one year, after that the administrators have no option but to wind the company up. I have no idea how long the legal proceedings in Lithuania are likely to take but if its anything like in Scotland I would say it does not look good if you want a Heart of Midlothian Football Club kicking around for the start of season 2014/15.

Pretty sure there's no rules to say how long they can stay in admin. Could be wrong, but as long as they have enough funds to keep going they can stay in admin as long as it takes...or as long as the liths allow as it's them who are paying BDO's fees at the end of the day.

[robinp]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

This point seems to be completely forgotten, while the assets are frozen, no one can buy them. The real danger for Hearts is they can only remain in administration for one year, after that the administrators have no option but to wind the company up.

No they dont, the administrator simply applies to the court to have the admin extended by another x months. He has to justify why, but its very very common if you have a trading administration which is trading profitably but you need a bit more time to conclude matters in the admin before exiting. Edit: You should check paragraphs 76/77 of Schedule B1 of the Insolvency Act.

I know, I worked on such a case last year which we applied to extend the admin so that the business sale could be concluded to a 3rd party and the business saved.

What the real risk to HOMFC will be, if the admin is extended beyond 12 months, its another negative start to season next year with another points deduction.

[greenginger]

I don't think the admin. will go on for a year or anywhere near it.

The Ukio Admin. is busy playing hardball with the bank that got Ukio Bankas assets . He is not happy with the valuations and is threatening to take some them back and resell them to ensure the Creditors get full value.

Once that is sorted I'm sure he won't think twice about seizing the PBS if there is more in it for his client than FoH. can offer.

FoH were entitled to do due diligence when they were named preferred bidder and that was months ago.

[InterviewLoI]

Is the frozen assets thing true? Silly question I know and Im very sorry but just making sure. I haven't read of it anywhere but here

[Sergey]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Is the frozen assets thing true? Silly question I know and Im very sorry but just making sure. I haven't read of it anywhere but here

From Bloomberg: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...-s-assets.html

[Sanger]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

This point seems to be completely forgotten, while the assets are frozen, no one can buy them. The real danger for Hearts is they can only remain in administration for one year, after that the administrators have no option but to wind the company up. I have no idea how long the legal proceedings in Lithuania are likely to take but if its anything like in Scotland I would say it does not look good if you want a Heart of Midlothian Football Club kicking around for the start of season 2014/15.

Once the UBIG administer is confirmed then an agreement can be reached between the Ukio & UBIG to liquidate Hearts and put the receipts in a trust fund until creditors claims are resolved. The freezing of Romanov's assets is designed to stop him selling or going off with them to realise value for the creditors.

[clerriehibs]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'm told the FOH are still conducting due diligence,




If it's referring to UKIO then no, they shouldn't have.

They should have. I think the term used in what was the SPL rules was an 'insolvency event' was the trigger for a points deduction, and I assume defined that way to allow wider considerations rather than a club itself going into admin. The SPL saw fit to investigate homfc, admitted they didn't have all the facts, and retained the right to investigate further.
Did they know the HMRC debt was not being addressed?
Did they know homfc were defaulting on local taxes?
Did they know few, if any, creditors were being paid at all?

They are all indications of a club most definitely not self-sufficient, which they claimed to the SPL they most definitely were.

They were insolvent - the SPL/spfl should have revisited, and hammered them.

[Hibby Kay-Yay]

What's going to go burst first, HoMFC or our hope that they will?

It's been a helluva roller coaster for us watching...I think if we done a poll on the outcome there would be an increase in the option - 'the jammy bar stewards will get out of this'

[Caversham Green]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

They should have. I think the term used in what was the SPL rules was an 'insolvency event' was the trigger for a points deduction, and I assume defined that way to allow wider considerations rather than a club itself going into admin. The SPL saw fit to investigate homfc, admitted they didn't have all the facts, and retained the right to investigate further.
Did they know the HMRC debt was not being addressed?
Did they know homfc were defaulting on local taxes?
Did they know few, if any, creditors were being paid at all?

They are all indications of a club most definitely not self-sufficient, which they claimed to the SPL they most definitely were.

They were insolvent - the SPL/spfl should have revisited, and hammered them.

There's some confusion between Ukio and UBIG here. The OP was referring to Ukio who aren't HoMFC's parent company (I'm not entirely convince they OWN that 29.9% either, but that's a different argument). There was no provision for a points deduction as a result of Ukio going bust.

Also, what constitutes an insolvency event is specified in the SPL rules and the three events you mention don't fall into it. My view is that UBIG declaring themselves bankrupt (which also happened before the end of last season) did constitute an insolvency event within the SPL's description and there was cause to deduct points then, but there would undoubtedly have been a legal challenge, and as we've seen from the Rangers/Sevco case a court's decision can go either way.

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

What's going to go burst first, HoMFC or our hope that they will?

It's been a helluva roller coaster for us watching...I think if we done a poll on the outcome there would be an increase in the option - 'the jammy bar stewards will get out of this'

They haven't got out of it though, it's just that the goalposts keep moving.

This thread started with speculation that they might not pay their players on time and should suffer some sort of punishment if they didn't. Back then few of us believed (although I always did ) that they would enter administration (wishful thinking according to some), suffer the biggest ever points deduction, have a threadbare squad and full signing embargo and look prime candidates for relegation. They are a pale shadow of the club that cheated their way to the 2012 Scottish Cup.

They might or might not survive in their current form - that remains in the balance - but most of the things we were genuinely wishing for on 15 October 2012 have befallen them already. Wishing ever more dire problems on them now only hands a moral (but hollow) victory when they don't happen.

[s.a.m]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

There's some confusion between Ukio and UBIG here. The OP was referring to Ukio who aren't HoMFC's parent company (I'm not entirely convince they OWN that 29.9% either, but that's a different argument). There was no provision for a points deduction as a result of Ukio going bust.

Also, what constitutes an insolvency event is specified in the SPL rules and the three events you mention don't fall into it. My view is that UBIG declaring themselves bankrupt (which also happened before the end of last season) did constitute an insolvency event within the SPL's description and there was cause to deduct points then, but there would undoubtedly have been a legal challenge, and as we've seen from the Rangers/Sevco case a court's decision can go either way.

Yup. My fault - I got my U.whatsits mixed up. I would agree that the self-declaration of bankruptcy should have triggered the deduction. I can understand their reluctance to take on another legal battle, though. As you say, the Rangers shennanigans demonstrated to us all that cases which might seem straightforward can be skipped round by nimble legal footwork.

[Hibby Kay-Yay]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

They haven't got out of it though, it's just that the goalposts keep moving.

This thread started with speculation that they might not pay their players on time and should suffer some sort of punishment if they didn't. Back then few of us believed (although I always did ) that they would enter administration (wishful thinking according to some), suffer the biggest ever points deduction, have a threadbare squad and full signing embargo and look prime candidates for relegation. They are a pale shadow of the club that cheated their way to the 2012 Scottish Cup.

They might or might not survive in their current form - that remains in the balance - but most of the things we were genuinely wishing for on 15 October 2012 have befallen them already. Wishing ever more dire problems on them now only hands a moral (but hollow) victory when they don't happen.

The point being, if they shed this debt for the FoH offer then that will seem like a victory to them. The punishment they have suffered recently is fair enough as per the laws/rules. However, to get out of admin and shedding the debt whilst keeping their assets is unjust.

[greenginger]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The point being, if they shed this debt for the FoH offer then that will seem like a victory to them. The punishment they have suffered recently is fair enough as per the laws/rules. However, to get out of admin and shedding the debt whilst keeping their assets is unjust.

http://translate.googleusercontent.c...X5bXnGgezq4rhw

The Ukio Bankas creditors group seem to have a handle on things. Accusing KPMG of creditor treachery by under-valuing Ukio Bankas property assets transferred to the other Bank.

Could someone contact the group and tell them to keep eye on the Gorgie " asset " in case of any more treachery !

[jacomo]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Everything which was set up by Romanov (in the way of contracts) will have been ended with administration. Anyone buying the club now will buy it from the administrators, with no burden carried forward from pre admin times. I find it difficult to see what diligence is due.

This can't be right. If the company survives admin then its contracts (players etc) will survive too. FOH couldn't take Hearts out of admin and then just punt any players they don't fancy.

[clerriehibs]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The point being, if they shed this debt for the FoH offer then that will seem like a victory to them. The punishment they have suffered recently is fair enough as per the laws/rules. However, to get out of admin and shedding the debt whilst keeping their assets is unjust.

On the face of it, it is unjust, but within the laws of the land for bankruptcy.

However, for the football authorities to accept that for this debacle of bringing the game into disrepute (forget tbe fawning bbc), and cheating, is adequately punished by a 15 point penalty is just plain wrong. It's a worse caae of brushing the cheating under the carpet than pro cycling was ever guilty of.

[Leishy1995]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...an/3710698.stm

On this day

[brog]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

http://translate.googleusercontent.c...X5bXnGgezq4rhw

The Ukio Bankas creditors group seem to have a handle on things. Accusing KPMG of creditor treachery by under-valuing Ukio Bankas property assets transferred to the other Bank.

Could someone contact the group and tell them to keep eye on the Gorgie " asset " in case of any more treachery !

Sounds suspiciously familiar!! Now I know PBS is not as yet up for sale but what's to stop an entrepreneur making contact with Liths & stating they will offer £xmillion ( say 1 or 2 million more than F of H offer ) for PBS alone in event of Yams being liquidated? Again I know it would be difficult to execute a contract in those circumstances but I'm sure there's ways of expressing one's good faith, eg lodging a bond, which could allow this to happen. I'm sure there are some vultures circling who see a huge opportunity if PBS were to go at a knock down price. Conversely, could Liths admin state F of H offer is only enough to buy the club & PBS would require a separate sale? Now that would be pleasing!

[Spike Mandela]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

They haven't got out of it though, it's just that the goalposts keep moving.

This thread started with speculation that they might not pay their players on time and should suffer some sort of punishment if they didn't. Back then few of us believed (although I always did ) that they would enter administration (wishful thinking according to some), suffer the biggest ever points deduction, have a threadbare squad and full signing embargo and look prime candidates for relegation. They are a pale shadow of the club that cheated their way to the 2012 Scottish Cup.

They might or might not survive in their current form - that remains in the balance - but most of the things we were genuinely wishing for on 15 October 2012 have befallen them already. Wishing ever more dire problems on them now only hands a moral (but hollow) victory when they don't happen.

Here's where it comes down to what people were expecting. Where's the suffering, the punishment or even the hardship?

So they are in administration, so what? So they have been deducted 15 points. What is the appropriate points deduction for shafting people out of £28m smackers? 5, 10, 15, 50 or what.? Totally random number depending on the league authorities current thinking. So they have a transfer embargo(Danny Wilson excluded of course) only saving them from themselves really.

So what has changed for Hearts fan, ok, they have had to bake a few cakes and give up their Christmas money but the truth of the matter is they are still playing in the SPL, still beating us and others, their crowds are up and in reality they have a pretty decent chance of staying up. If they now wriggle out of admin with stadium and no debt (even if they don't avoid relegation) I think most fans of other clubs would consider the administration route as the business model to follow for their club.

[Part/Time Supporter]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

If they now wriggle out of admin with stadium and no debt (even if they don't avoid relegation) I think most fans of other clubs would consider the administration route as the business model to follow for their club.

Most fans of other teams won't have their view of administration and whether it's a good option affected much by Hearts. It will have been largely formed already by previous examples, perhaps including their own. Some of those involved relatively lucky outcomes (eg Motherwell having their debt forgiven by John Boyle and then staying up due to Falkirk not having a good stadium), while many others had disastrous outcomes (Airdrie, Clydebank, Gretna, Rangers).

Hibs fans will take a different view from most other fans because a) more attention is focused on Hearts and b) Hibs management have argued for years that the club needs to operate within tight financial parameters or a disaster may befall the club. If it turns out that Hearts, who haven't operated within those guidelines, can avoid complete disaster it would punch a big hole in that argument. But it wouldn't really affect how most other people look at it.

[clerriehibs]

They're dopers; financial dopers. Strip them of anything they've achievwd in the roamingoff years (at least), and then let's hear how 'worth it' it's all been.

If you've been cheating, and they have, you can't be left feeling "it was worth it".

[Keith_M]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

....while many others had disastrous outcomes (Airdrie, Clydebank, Gretna, Rangers).

I'll give you Clydebank and Gretna but not the other two. Both Rangers and Airdrie are in the Scottish leagues, at the same stadiums, claiming their full history and not even having to play under an assumed name (Airdrie Utd are now back to being called Airdrieonians, because of the Rangers precedent). They have meanwhile managed to ditch all of their debt, Rangers even trumpeting the fact they have no debt at every opportunity.

I'd argue that they've done reasonably well out of it.

[PatHead]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'll give you Clydebank and Gretna but not the other two. Both Rangers and Airdrie are in the Scottish leagues, at the same stadiums, claiming their full history and not even having to play under an assumed name (Airdrie Utd are now back to being called Airdrieonians, because of the Rangers precedent). They have meanwhile managed to ditch all of their debt, Rangers even trumpeting the fact they have no debt at every opportunity.

I'd argue that they've done reasonably well out of it.

Couldn't say Rangers have done well out of it, playing in the lower reaches of the leagues, losing ground to their perceived rivals who are making a mint in Champions league. They are suffering even if it is not as much as we would like them to......and there might be more to come if they carry on spending more than they take in.

[Pedantic_Hibee]

If Hearts get out of this ill demand that Hibs go down the administration route. The fact they flumps across the road are rejoicing about BDO being in charge says it all for me. They've never been more proud.

[southsider]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

If Hearts get out of this ill demand that Hibs go down the administration route. The fact they flumps across the road are rejoicing about BDO being in charge says it all for me. They've never been more proud.

No chance ! Pay your debts and be respected. An old saying but a good one.

[Caversham Green]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Here's where it comes down to what people were expecting. Where's the suffering, the punishment or even the hardship?

So they are in administration, so what? So they have been deducted 15 points. What is the appropriate points deduction for shafting people out of £28m smackers? 5, 10, 15, 50 or what.? Totally random number depending on the league authorities current thinking. So they have a transfer embargo(Danny Wilson excluded of course) only saving them from themselves really.

So what has changed for Hearts fan, ok, they have had to bake a few cakes and give up their Christmas money but the truth of the matter is they are still playing in the SPL, still beating us and others, their crowds are up and in reality they have a pretty decent chance of staying up. If they now wriggle out of admin with stadium and no debt (even if they don't avoid relegation) I think most fans of other clubs would consider the administration route as the business model to follow for their club.

Just under a year ago HoMFC fans paid over £1m and got nothing in return and if reports are accurate, 7,000 of them are paying at least £120 a year on top of their season/match tickets. I reckon that equates to £600-£700 for a season ticket, and their team is right at the bottom of the league with little hope of improvement for the next few seasons, IF they survive. Would you really like Hibs to go down that route?

My point was though, that if HoMFC had escaped administration, as most on here were predicting when the thread started, the complaints would actually be less bitter than they are now.

[jgl07]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'll give you Clydebank and Gretna but not the other two. Both Rangers and Airdrie are in the Scottish leagues, at the same stadiums, claiming their full history and not even having to play under an assumed name (Airdrie Utd are now back to being called Airdrieonians, because of the Rangers precedent). They have meanwhile managed to ditch all of their debt, Rangers even trumpeting the fact they have no debt at every opportunity.

I'd argue that they've done reasonably well out of it.

Rangers may be claiming their full history but Airdrie United did not claim their history (such that it was!) when the new club was constituted. They have now changed their name to Airdrieonians but I suspect it is too late to claim their history.

At the time it was claimed that Airdrie United could not buy their club's history nor their crest and logos unless the debt on liquidation was cleared. It appears that legal opinion is different when it comes to Rangers!

As for (the) Rangers having no debt, that is a purely temporary state of affairs. They will likely as not soon run into serious debt unless they can cut costs or increase revenue dramatically. I can't see a year in the second division (League One) will be much better than last year in the third division. Even next season in the Championship will offer little financial reward on the scale that (the) Rangers need.

[Spike Mandela]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Just under a year ago HoMFC fans paid over £1m and got nothing in return and if reports are accurate, 7,000 of them are paying at least £120 a year on top of their season/match tickets. I reckon that equates to £600-£700 for a season ticket, and their team is right at the bottom of the league with little hope of improvement for the next few seasons, IF they survive. Would you really like Hibs to go down that route?

My point was though, that if HoMFC had escaped administration, as most on here were predicting when the thread started, the complaints would actually be less bitter than they are now.

Give me 10 years of signing better quality players, two Scottish cups, second place, Champions league qualifiers, Europa group stages, regular European qualification and regular top six finishes and I would take a 15 pt deduction, dearer season tickets and a potential relegation, Aye, especially if it meant my club was then debt free.

In the funfair of life it's more exciting to be on the roller coaster with it's ups and down rather than the carousel which just goes round and round.