Share Transfers Agreed/Cooling off period

[Stevie Reid]

New:Hearts' parent company insolvent


Hearts' parent company UBIG is declared insolvent by a Lithuanian court, clearing the way for a sale of the club.

The heading on BBC's SPFL page.

[ballengeich]

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1. Fine.........Bryan Jackson " any financial penalty could be fatal for Hearts"

2. Extended registration embargo.........."hearts won't be able to fulfil fixtures"

So they don't have any money to pay a fine, but do have money to pay additional players. Anyone see an inconsistency?

[CropleyWasGod]

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OR.......

one of the oft mentioned reasons that a sale could not take place was that UBIG did not have an administrator appointed. Now they do.

... and the shares are still frozen.

[KWJ]

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Let them play youth players. In theory, could a team not field a 15 year old if they thought he was good enough?

In their case though it would be a case of having to field him cos they've no other option.

How have other teams managed to do it? Hearts had a squad of 60+ not that long ago at all.

[brog]

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Their argument is that they only have 20 players, 3 of which are goalies.

If they have a couple of injuries at any stage they then don't have enough players to make up a match day squad.

What can the league do other than allow some sort of concession?

Thats fine, to me they're saying they can't guarantee to fulfil their fixtures so they should be kicked out of the league. Luckily we now have a pyramid structure in place & the derby will happen in E of S against our U-20's! I think there would be uproar if they got away with this.

[The Falcon]

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... and the shares are still frozen.

for now.................

[WhileTheChief..]

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So basically, what there's saying is "we demand that you don't punish us for cheating by signing players on inflated wages we can't afford and instead allow us to continue cheating by signing players on inflated wages we can't afford."

I think the SPFL's response will be something like this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvdf5n-zI14

Not what I'm saying mate, it's what Hearts are saying.

[CropleyWasGod]

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for now.................

Do you think that the appointment of the administrator will persuade the Lith Government to unfreeze their assets?

[The Falcon]

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Do you think that the appointment of the administrator will persuade the Lith Government to unfreeze their assets?

We are going to go round in circles because I am going to ask you if you are saying that it wont happen? The unfreezing I mean. And with you being a member of the dark profession you are going to a) sit on the fence or b) bill me then sit on the fence . I have no idea what will happen but I am guessing that since UBIG not having an administrator appeared to be an obstacle and that obstacle is now removed so there is now someone to represent UBIG, therefore there is more chance now than there was two days ago for example, of UBIG's assets being disposed off.

[Prof. Shaggy]

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Do you think that the appointment of the administrator will persuade the Lith Government to unfreeze their assets?

Isn't there a scenario in which the admins of both UB and UBIG try to do just that?
"We're short of x million Litas between us. These funny pink footballers in Edinburgh owe us £25 million of their Scottish pounds. We reckon we could get £3-4 million back if you let us sell the whole sorry mess to this nice gentleman from Italy. It's probably the best we can do."

[Gus Fring]

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Isn't there a scenario in which the admins of both UB and UBIG try to do just that?
"We're short of x million Litas between us. These funny pink footballers in Edinburgh owe us £25 million of their Scottish pounds. We reckon we could get £3-4 million back if you let us sell the whole sorry mess to this nice gentleman from Italy. It's probably the best we can do."

You missed a bit off the end "Making the whole investigation into the dodgy dealings of said bank and investment group that much harder"

[CropleyWasGod]

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We are going to go round in circles because I am going to ask you if you are saying that it wont happen? The unfreezing I mean. And with you being a member of the dark profession you are going to a) sit on the fence or b) bill me then sit on the fence . I have no idea what will happen but I am guessing that since UBIG not having an administrator appeared to be an obstacle and that obstacle is now removed so there is now someone to represent UBIG, therefore there is more chance now than there was two days ago for example, of UBIG's assets being disposed off.

I was actually asking you because I thought you maybe had a different take

I'm still not buying into the "we have an administrator. All is fine now." school of thought. That ball is in the Lith Government's court, not the UBIG administrator.

I will say that BJ CAN'T, at this moment, deal with the UBIG admin on the matter of the shares because the UBIG admin has no power over them.

That'll be a fiver please.... now help me get the splinters out my erse.

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Isn't there a scenario in which the admins of both UB and UBIG try to do just that?
"We're short of x million Litas between us. These funny pink footballers in Edinburgh owe us £25 million of their Scottish pounds. We reckon we could get £3-4 million back if you let us sell the whole sorry mess to this nice gentleman from Italy. It's probably the best we can do."

... at which point the Lith Government might say. "No.... we think there's a lot more to be uncovered throughout the companies and their assets. Now go away and find us £250m".

[Gus Fring]

Just caught up on the thread. I've just been told the authorities have had no dialogue with Hearts or BDO about being allowed to sign new players. Minimum matchday squad is 14 I believe and the maximum is 18. No decision has been made about further punishments either. It's difficult to convey on a message board but the feeling I get from within the "corridors of power" just now is one of anger at Hearts. They still have to be able to make any punishment stick, though. The best thing they can do just now is step back and let Hearts/BDO get on with it.

[Spike Mandela]

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Just caught up on the thread. I've just been told the authorities have had no dialogue with Hearts or BDO about being allowed to sign new players. Minimum matchday squad is 14 I believe and the maximum is 18. No decision has been made about further punishments either. It's difficult to convey on a message board but the feeling I get from within the "corridors of power" just now is one of anger at Hearts. They still have to be able to make any punishment stick, though. The best thing they can do just now is step back and let Hearts/BDO get on with it.

I wish posts had a 'like' option.

[Ozyhibby]

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Just caught up on the thread. I've just been told the authorities have had no dialogue with Hearts or BDO about being allowed to sign new players. Minimum matchday squad is 14 I believe and the maximum is 18. No decision has been made about further punishments either. It's difficult to convey on a message board but the feeling I get from within the "corridors of power" just now is one of anger at Hearts. They still have to be able to make any punishment stick, though. The best thing they can do just now is step back and let Hearts/BDO get on with it.

Why were they allowed to ask Livingston for a bond and not Hearts?

[CropleyWasGod]

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Why were they allowed to ask Livingston for a bond and not Hearts?

Livingston were in the SFL at the time. Different organisation.

That said, the SPFL may go down that route. We don't know what has been discussed between them. I don't even know if they have that power.

[s.a.m]

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Why were they allowed to ask Livingston for a bond and not Hearts?

Different league setup / different rules ?
Plus - clubs less likely to have the financial whereabouts or inclination to pursue legal action?

[HibeeMG]

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Isn't there a scenario in which the admins of both UB and UBIG try to do just that?
"We're short of x million Litas between us. These funny pink footballers in Edinburgh owe us £25 million of their Scottish pounds. We reckon we could get £3-4 million back if you let us sell the whole sorry mess to this nice gentleman from Italy. It's probably the best we can do."

£25 million? Try £65 million!

These guys will know the full extent of the cost to the Lithuanian tax-payer of Romanov's time at Hearts.

[Sanger]

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£25 million? Try £65 million!

These guys will know the full extent of the cost to the Lithuanian tax-payer of Romanov's time at Hearts.

Exactly - £2m and a few cakes will cut no ice with the Liths who picked up £200m bill for Romanov's exploits!

[Kaiser1962]

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£25 million? Try £65 million!

These guys will know the full extent of the cost to the Lithuanian tax-payer of Romanov's time at Hearts.

The costs I get are as follows

Cost to aquire shares £4.3m; Losses over period £33.8m; debt forgiveness £18.7m; inter co transaction £3.9m and current debt (to UBIG and UKIO) £25m which totals £85.7m. There will be more debt but we dont know what that is and can only guess at this time.

The unknown is what Vlad's original deal did with the original debt but if you subtract the known two DFE swaps of £22m from the known losses of £33.8m it only leaves £11.8m, around £8m less than the debt of £19.6m at takeover.

Or is it not that simple?

[Hibbyradge]

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I wish posts had a 'like' option.

[Spike Mandela]

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I want to 'like' this post but I can't.

[rcarter1]

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So they don't have any money to pay a fine, but do have money to pay additional players. Anyone see an inconsistency?

Belting point.

Let them sign as many players they want to.

Then fine them proper.

Then punt them.

[jacomo]

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So they don't have any money to pay a fine, but do have money to pay additional players. Anyone see an inconsistency?

They're at it, obviously.

Next season poses all sorts of problematic scenarios, here's another one prompted by your post: say Hearts lose their first 4 or 5 games (even the derby! ) and consider the campaign a write off in September. They may then start refusing to fulfill fixtures due to "injuries" - they forfeit the game but don't care because they are certs to be relegated anyway and are acting out of spite.

Given the lack of accountability and humility over by, it wouldn't surprise me if they start playing the victim card. Diet Huns, all the way.

[Prof. Shaggy]

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You missed a bit off the end "Making the whole investigation into the dodgy dealings of said bank and investment group that much harder"

But does it really make it any harder? The point of freezing the assets, I assume, was to prevent VR from taking steps to protect or obscure his own position. Now that the admins are in place and have access to the documents...

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... at which point the Lith Government might say. "No.... we think there's a lot more to be uncovered throughout the companies and their assets. Now go away and find us £250m".

Of course they might, and I hope they will, but I just wonder if the actual shares themselves help to uncover anything useful to them...

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£25 million? Try £65 million!

These guys will know the full extent of the cost to the Lithuanian tax-payer of Romanov's time at Hearts.

Yes, of course they will, but it's far from certain they'll consider the remaining £40m as recoverable. When everything's said and done, they're going to get what a buyer is willing to pay...

All of the above in the interests of devil's advocacy, you understand!

[Onion]

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Hearts have told the SPFL that if they are not allowed to sign players they won't have enough of a squad to fulfil fixtures.

They are basically threatening to throw the league into chaos unless they are allowed to sign some players.

Supposedly Naysmith, Webster and Boyd are all ready to sign.

Ok, they can have their pick from our lot for starters.

[Onion]

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So basically, what there's saying is "we demand that you don't punish us for cheating by signing players on inflated wages we can't afford and instead allow us to continue cheating by signing players on inflated wages we can't afford."

I think the SPFL's response will be something like this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvdf5n-zI14

So they are in effect asking the SPFL to LEND them money to buy some players Maybe all clubs could do this when they next are hit with a fine... see that money we owe you, tell you what... think we'll just use that to buy some more players instead... otherwise we're no playing

[Sanger]

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But does it really make it any harder? The point of freezing the assets, I assume, was to prevent VR from taking steps to protect or obscure his own position. Now that the admins are in place and have access to the documents...



Of course they might, and I hope they will, but I just wonder if the actual shares themselves help to uncover anything useful to them...



Yes, of course they will, but it's far from certain they'll consider the remaining £40m as recoverable. When everything's said and done, they're going to get what a buyer is willing to pay...

All of the above in the interests of devil's advocacy, you understand!

They don't consider the other £40m recoverable or most of the £25m but they ain't going to accept £2m when they can get at least double selling Tynie.

[Prof. Shaggy]

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They don't consider the other £40m recoverable or most of the £25m but they ain't going to accept £2m when they can get at least double selling Tynie.

With the respect that is due from someone whose knowledge and understanding of insolvency practice could be written on the back of a fag packet with a paint brush, that's not my point.

I'm trying to explore the issue raised by BDO that they can't resolve the issue of Hearts' ownership until UBIG's admin is appointed. Are there conditions in which an administrator can petition the Government's Financial Authorities to have these assets un-frozen and, possibly, disposed of through a CVA, and do BDO have any reason to expect this will happen?

[Alfred E Newman]

Am I the only one that is getting bored with this thread? We have just suffered one of the worst results in our history and this stuff is still on the 1st page.