Share Transfers Agreed/Cooling off period

[JoeTortolanoFanClub]

I have a long drive ahead of me today. It will be even longer now that I will be stopping at every single service station to log on to this thread. Petrie, sort it out !

[Hibs7]

You just have to laugh :-) taken from brokeback Jam Tarts 1874


It now seems likely that Hearts are going to fall foul of a rule that was written to cover completely different circumstances i.e. owners setting up holdings companies offshore to fund clubs.

UBIG are not a football entity, were not set up for the purposes of owing a football club, do not have football debts and are not insolvent due to footballing activities, but you can be sure that the SPL - even as I write this, will be making sure that we are going down.

The SFA hate us, the weegia hate us and the SPL hate us. Indeed, I would be happy to bet that Doncaster and his cronies including Petrie have been up all night tugging themselves off and rather than looking at a way to avoid applying the rules to Hearts, they will have been looking at it from the point of view that they want to make the rules stick and are probably trying to find ways of punishing Hearts more than just the statutory points deduction.

Can you imagine if the Glaziers or Abramovich went bust and Chelsea or Man Utd were going to get punished for it? It just wouldn't happen would it!?

[Caversham Green]

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If I was a betting man, I'd put money on no action (or specifically no points deduction) happening over this.

The SPL have discretion as to whether or not they apply that punishment. I think they won't do that. Just my opinion but I reckon today is going to be a massive let down.

It's certainly a possibility, but my view is that the legal basis for it is very weak - the idea that club is separate from company just doesn't bear any sort of legal scrutiny and without that UBIG is the owner and operator of HoMFC and the points deduction becomes automatic. That's not to say the SPL will agree with that view though.

What I find astonishing is that the SPL are discussing it now - after the event. This has been on the cards for years, been probable rather than possible for at least a year and inevitable for the last six months. It's a disgrace that no-one at the SPL has thought to say "What do we do if UBIG go bust?" until after it has happened.

In any case, if they do escape the points deduction they still have the problem of paying off all those loans - £25m in two years. Maybe the fun has just begun.

[Aldo]

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Playing Devil's Advocate - if the SPL abide by their own rules then that would be showing integrity as well. The rules don't (afaik) state that the points deduction is automatic or mandatory.

Hopefully I am wrong. Again.

True but look at the mess they started the season with.. Dundee etc. that will be in the back of their minds.
Question I have though is if the rules are there why don't the show they have a set and do what's right.

They set the rules... Teams are aware of the rules and supposedly abide by them yet the Yams are clearly in the doo, non payment if players HMRC etc.

Tbh it's also about the image of the SPL... It's becoming clearer that Vlad used others money to fund his hobby and by all accounts could if used the club to launder etc.

They know what they have to do. We shall see

[blackpoolhibs]

The date they declared themselves insolvent was the 16th of May, that should be the date any punishment starts from, not next Monday when the league ends.

Hearts owners have declared themselves insolvent, Dundee need to be asking why an insolvent club have not been deducted the 18 points the league rules say it should be.

The points should be deducted now, and Dundee can prepare for next season as an SPL club. If there is to be a club appealing this, then that should be Hearts not Dundee.

[matty_f]

For the record I want to see the points deduction.

[Judas Iscariot]

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The date they declared themselves insolvent was the 16th of May, that should be the date any punishment starts from, not next Monday when the league ends.

Hearts owners have declared themselves insolvent, Dundee need to be asking why an insolvent club have not been deducted the 18 points the league rules say it should be.

The points should be deducted now, and Dundee can prepare for next season as an SPL club. If there is to be a club appealing this, then that should be Hearts not Dundee.

That's it in a nutshell for me...

However we will see that the SPL have no balls whatsoever

[MyJo]

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You just have to laugh :-) taken from brokeback Jam Tarts 1874


It now seems likely that Hearts are going to fall foul of a rule that was written to cover completely different circumstances i.e. owners setting up holdings companies offshore to fund clubs.

UBIG are not a football entity, were not set up for the purposes of owing a football club, do not have football debts and are not insolvent due to footballing activities, but you can be sure that the SPL - even as I write this, will be making sure that we are going down.

The SFA hate us, the weegia hate us and the SPL hate us. Indeed, I would be happy to bet that Doncaster and his cronies including Petrie have been up all night tugging themselves off and rather than looking at a way to avoid applying the rules to Hearts, they will have been looking at it from the point of view that they want to make the rules stick and are probably trying to find ways of punishing Hearts more than just the statutory points deduction.

Can you imagine if the Glaziers or Abramovich went bust and Chelsea or Man Utd were going to get punished for it? It just wouldn't happen would it!?

Why in the name of everything holy would the spl board actively seek out ways of not applying the rules of our league to hearts. Kind of defeats the purpose of having rules in the first place you bunch of inbred f@&kwits

[Onion]

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This is my fear as well - the SPL dont have the balls to do anything about this, Hearts will probably get through the next week or so and then probably hit the admin button safe in the knowledge that they will still be in the SPL.

I'd agree with all of this ... had we not had the Rangers situation. There is a lot of light on the SPL and what they decide to do with Hearts. If they cock up or try to wangle some sort of dodgy deal that cuts across their own rules, they will get hammered by the SPL clubs and Sevco who will all want to see fair treatment. The SPL knew about Hearts situation last summer when they were putting the new solvency rules in place so should have allowed for this eventuality - really not sure why they now have to get legal opinion to understand their own rules

The other scenario is that the SPL decide to do nothing (no point deduction) only to find Hearts liquidated a few weeks from now which might already be inevitable. That would make the SPL's decision ludicrous and their rules around insolvent owners "not fit for purpose". So, IMHO there is a huge amount of pressure on the SPL here and they cannot afford to cock up. On balance, I think they'll have to find a way of applying the 18 pt penalty and reinstate Dundee.

[Hibrandenburg]

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As much as all this is funny, the lack of backlash from the fans is alarming.
Of course they have all these splinter supporters groups (FOH, judean people's front, people's front of judea, etc etc) but they are all relying on hush hush backhanders and even denying they're in trouble at all. It's all similar to the demise of der Hun.

If it was us I'd like to think we'd have rallied long ago and demanded answers - Debt? Share issue? DFE? HMRC? Delayed payments?

It's looking like its too late now though.

They're just going to roll over, submit and die.
Hell mend them.

This!

They've done SFA to try and steer their club off the rocks and now that they're in the mincer they're claiming it was all worth the ride.

Breathtakingly stupid! They're football's equivalent to the Dodo, death by natural selection.

[matty_f]

I'm off today, can see Mrs Matty getting the.hump asking me to do stuff while i try to stay tuned to this.

[Hibernian Verse]

Dundee deserve another chance after that fud Pawlett left them relegated.

[7062]

The sun is shining, the birds are chirping their morning songs and I've a spring in my step. This could be a wonderful day....

[hibby rae]

It's quite entertaining on the bbc comments section. Jambos and Huns at each ither's throats.It's like that bit in Lord of the Rings when the Orcs and Goblins started fighting each other!

[SouthMoroccoStu]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cLoXiNK...%3DcLoXiNKjdBQ

[Caversham Green]

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Playing Devil's Advocate - if the SPL abide by their own rules then that would be showing integrity as well. The rules don't (afaik) state that the points deduction is automatic or mandatory.

Hopefully I am wrong. Again.

The rules say "...all references to a club taking...an insolvency event... as well as including the owner and operator ... shall also include any Group undertaking [at the board's discretion]".

The bold bit means that the points deduction is automatic if the owner and operator goes bust and the rest means it's discretionary for other group companies, so the question is whether UBIG or HoMFC plc is the owner and operator of the club.

[HH81]

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It's going to be busy today folks so let's not clog it up with gifs. If things slow down we'll just have to start restricting access and that could filter down to registered users as well as guests

Just ban Steve for the day

[Mikey]

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The other scenario is that the SPL decide to do nothing (no point deduction) only to find Hearts liquidated a few weeks from now which might already be inevitable. That would make the SPL's decision ludicrous and their rules around solvent openers "not fit for purpose". So, IMHO there is a huge amount of pressure on the SPL here and they cannot afford to cock up. On balance, I think they'll have to find a way of applying the 18 pt penalty and reinstate Dundee.

That's the crux of the matter. Hearts won't see the end of the summer, never mind the end of next season.

Relegate them now and the top league doesn't have the problem.

[matty_f]

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You just have to laugh :-) taken from brokeback Jam Tarts 1874


It now seems likely that Hearts are going to fall foul of a rule that was written to cover completely different circumstances i.e. owners setting up holdings companies offshore to fund clubs.

UBIG are not a football entity, were not set up for the purposes of owing a football club, do not have football debts and are not insolvent due to footballing activities, but you can be sure that the SPL - even as I write this, will be making sure that we are going down.

The SFA hate us, the weegia hate us and the SPL hate us. Indeed, I would be happy to bet that Doncaster and his cronies including Petrie have been up all night tugging themselves off and rather than looking at a way to avoid applying the rules to Hearts, they will have been looking at it from the point of view that they want to make the rules stick and are probably trying to find ways of punishing Hearts more than just the statutory points deduction.

Can you imagine if the Glaziers or Abramovich went bust and Chelsea or Man Utd were going to get punished for it? It just wouldn't happen would it!?

Isn't the parent club rule the one that nailed Portsmouth? The Yams should be worried as there is precedent, albeit in a different league.

[MacBean]

Couple of roasters on sport sound last night asking why Dundee would be saved and why Morton wouldn't come up - as this is what happened with Dunfermline and rangers last season.

simple answer. You're going down due a points deduction, not liquidation (ie ceasing to exist). You'd be going down because you have the least points in the league ala Portsmouth a few seasons ago and aek Athens this season

[ScottB]

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Couple of roasters on sport sound last night asking why Dundee would be saved and why Morton wouldn't come up - as this is what happened with Dunfermline and rangers last season.

simple answer. You're going down due a points deduction, not liquidation (ie ceasing to exist). You'd be going down because you have the least points in the league ala Portsmouth a few seasons ago and aek Athens this season

Let's not count our chickens

[Purehibee_MYB]

Got my Sunshine on Leith t-shirt on and a smile on my face..

Good to be a Hibby

[Part/Time Supporter]

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The rules say "...all references to a club taking...an insolvency event... as well as including the owner and operator ... shall also include any Group undertaking [at the board's discretion]".

The bold bit means that the points deduction is automatic if the owner and operator goes bust and the rest means it's discretionary for other group companies, so the question is whether UBIG or HoMFC plc is the owner and operator of the club.

The Lord Nimmo Smith ruling about Rangers means that they will consider HMFC plc to be the owner and operator of the football club (the separate football club and company argument). If they follow that ruling they will consider UBIG to be a group undertaking. Then it is within their discretion and even if they levy a penalty Hearts can appeal on the grounds that UBIG's collapse was beyond their control (force majeure).

[Benny Brazil]

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I'd agree with all of this ... had we not had the Rangers situation. There is a lot of light on the SPL and what they decide to do with Hearts. If they cock up or try to wangle some sort of dodgy deal that cuts across their own rules, they will get hammered by the SPL clubs and Sevco who will all want to see fair treatment. The SPL knew about Hearts situation last summer when they were putting the new solvency rules in place so should have allowed for this eventuality - really not sure why they now have to get legal opinion to understand their own rules

The other scenario is that the SPL decide to do nothing (no point deduction) only to find Hearts liquidated a few weeks from now which might already be inevitable. That would make the SPL's decision ludicrous and their rules around solvent openers "not fit for purpose". So, IMHO there is a huge amount of pressure on the SPL here and they cannot afford to cock up. On balance, I think they'll have to find a way of applying the 18 pt penalty and reinstate Dundee.

Good points Onion - but with the Rangers scenario - it took the fans of all the other clubs (Hearts included ironically) to put the pressure on to get something done or the SPL would have wriggled out of it and kept Sevco in the league. Your second paragraph is where I hold some beacon of hope - Hearts simply cannot survive past the summer so the SPL have to take that into account - the ball is firmly in the court of the SPL now.

[matty_f]

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The Lord Nimmo Smith ruling about Rangers means that they will consider HMFC plc to be the owner of the football club (the separate football club and company argument). If they follow that ruling they will consider UBIG to be a group undertaking.

I think this is why the Yams went out their way to say that Hearts Plc was the parent company recently.

They'll get off on a technicality imho, unless the SPL can be bothered to take into account all the literature that says UBIG is the parent company.

[WestEndHibee]

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It's going to be busy today folks so let's not clog it up with gifs. If things slow down we'll just have to start restricting access and that could filter down to registered users as well as guests

As much as I enjoy the gifs, I wouldn't want anyone to miss out on the spectacle especially the surprising number of guests that might want to have a peak.

[Mikey]

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I think this is why the Yams went out their way to say that Hearts Plc was the parent company recently.

They'll get off on a technicality imho, unless the SPL can be bothered to take into account all the literature that says UBIG is the parent company.

And let's not forget, it's a technicality that Hearts have been working on for some time. Any chance they get they tell us they're self sufficient, while conveniently forgetting about the bogus share issue.

[Thecat23]

Seems I've made Kickback after all.... HIYAAAAA girls, cheers for popping in for a look. Love how you also think I'm the one suffering from last may. How about, my club is in Europe, my club in the SC final, my club not hanging on the brink of going POP. My club will be in the SPL next season. Yeah I've a lot to be worried about. Feel free to join me later if you want? ;) Craigie boy, any chance of a 1-5 thread just for me? Allisbarry!!!!!!

[green glory]

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It's quite entertaining on the bbc comments section. Jambos and Huns at each ither's throats.It's like that bit in Lord of the Rings when the Orcs and Goblins started fighting each other!

Perfect analogy. Hun orcs and pink goblins lol.

[DarrenSQH]

I would like to thank them if it does happen today for making it happen on a friday!